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Box Safeties (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter tripp
- Start date
tripp
Footballguy
I didn't keep this thread up this year because I had some questions about its relevance and the PFF alignment data I was basing it on. For instance, it seems to me that the boundaries of delineation between LEO, LOLB, LLB, SSL, and SCB for a defensive back like Derwin James are awfully thin and gray for someone making beer money to chart plays for multiple games in one evening.
Questions came to a head for me today. The first thought is this: Do y'all consider an apex defender a "box safety?" That leads me to wonder if the term "box safety" implies that the safety is a de facto linebacker. It seems to me that multiple IDP writers think so. I wonder if they're aware that PFF is lumping apex defenders into this.
So here's my bigger conundrum. I believe the position terms we use on defense derived from decades-old formations aimed primarily to stop the run. A linebacker was first and foremost a run defender. A safety was the last line of defense for both run and pass. A cornerback played the point near the line of scrimmage where the RB "turned the corner."
Fast forward to 2020. A Patriots safety lined up 6 yards deep, preparing to play a shallow zone in Cover-1, to take away crossers, gets lumped into an LB conversation by virtue of how PFF compiles data. Dugger lined up at LB for 45% of his snaps per PFF. He was in the apex for another 26% of his snaps. Both he and Adrian Phillips are thus aligning "in the box" quite a bit, per PFF data. That's leading to some calling them de facto linebackers. To my thinking, that's conflating alignment with role, which is perhaps further confused by the connotations of the term "linebacker."
The same is happening in Charlotte, where all three Panthers safeties are rotating through the deep role roughly equally. At least one, if not two, then, play shallow (slot, apex, or between the offensive tackles). Only Chinn is being called an LB in the chaos of fantasy Twitter. He has lined up at "LB" for 39% of his snaps per PFF and at ILB for 15% of his snaps.
In my mind, the argument that the strong safety is a de facto linebacker was MORE applicable in the 4-3-under defenses of 2016. Think Dan Quinn/Keanu Neal, Gus Bradley/Jon Cyprien, Pete Carroll/Kam Chancellor. The best safeties are more versatile now. They must be more versatile to maintain full-time roles. Or even hold jobs (See: Parks, Will).
Have any of you thought a guy with a safety tag on a fantasy football platform was a cheat code because he was actually a LB since Deone Buchanon? Your thoughts are appreciated!
Questions came to a head for me today. The first thought is this: Do y'all consider an apex defender a "box safety?" That leads me to wonder if the term "box safety" implies that the safety is a de facto linebacker. It seems to me that multiple IDP writers think so. I wonder if they're aware that PFF is lumping apex defenders into this.
So here's my bigger conundrum. I believe the position terms we use on defense derived from decades-old formations aimed primarily to stop the run. A linebacker was first and foremost a run defender. A safety was the last line of defense for both run and pass. A cornerback played the point near the line of scrimmage where the RB "turned the corner."
Fast forward to 2020. A Patriots safety lined up 6 yards deep, preparing to play a shallow zone in Cover-1, to take away crossers, gets lumped into an LB conversation by virtue of how PFF compiles data. Dugger lined up at LB for 45% of his snaps per PFF. He was in the apex for another 26% of his snaps. Both he and Adrian Phillips are thus aligning "in the box" quite a bit, per PFF data. That's leading to some calling them de facto linebackers. To my thinking, that's conflating alignment with role, which is perhaps further confused by the connotations of the term "linebacker."
The same is happening in Charlotte, where all three Panthers safeties are rotating through the deep role roughly equally. At least one, if not two, then, play shallow (slot, apex, or between the offensive tackles). Only Chinn is being called an LB in the chaos of fantasy Twitter. He has lined up at "LB" for 39% of his snaps per PFF and at ILB for 15% of his snaps.
In my mind, the argument that the strong safety is a de facto linebacker was MORE applicable in the 4-3-under defenses of 2016. Think Dan Quinn/Keanu Neal, Gus Bradley/Jon Cyprien, Pete Carroll/Kam Chancellor. The best safeties are more versatile now. They must be more versatile to maintain full-time roles. Or even hold jobs (See: Parks, Will).
Have any of you thought a guy with a safety tag on a fantasy football platform was a cheat code because he was actually a LB since Deone Buchanon? Your thoughts are appreciated!
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trader jake
Footballguy
Great post Tripp, much appreciated.
Good timing too. This week Gary Davenport and Scott Bogman discussed this very topic on their IDP podcast, specifically regarding Jeremy Chinn. Davenport pulled the PFF data and mentioned how his decision for next year on Chinn would probably stir people up...leading me to believe Chinn has a better than average chance of being listed as a LB next season.
With that said I'm unsure where that line should be drawn between DB and LB. ?? Frankly I'd like to see the line drawn between DL and LB first...give fantasy football GMs an 'Edge' position already!!! Will it eventually be necessary to create another hybrid LB/DL position as well? Probably.
DT, DE, Edge, LB, Apex, CB, S
That seems to be the future of IDP fantasy football. Considering various stadium crews score differently and the obvious issue with edge defenders hasn't been resolved yet, I'm not optimistic we'll see much movement by a site like MFL in the near future.
tripp
Footballguy
Gary Davenport?! 
So, Bradley Chubb and Jeremy Chinn are both linebackers in his mind? If he were in charge of offensive position designations, we'd have nothing but QBs, PKs, and ball-carriers! It seems some IDP writers are losing sight of the forest through the trees. If they'll only accept deep safeties as DBs, then DBs are irrelevant for FFIDP. And there are already too many linebackers in the system, preventing scarcity. This will only push people away from IDP. 
So, Bradley Chubb and Jeremy Chinn are both linebackers in his mind? If he were in charge of offensive position designations, we'd have nothing but QBs, PKs, and ball-carriers! It seems some IDP writers are losing sight of the forest through the trees. If they'll only accept deep safeties as DBs, then DBs are irrelevant for FFIDP. And there are already too many linebackers in the system, preventing scarcity. This will only push people away from IDP. 
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
It is a great discussion. I definitely agree that the current designations of DT / DE / LB / CB / S are archaic and far less concrete now that defenses have changed how they defend b/c offenses are so heavily skewed towards spread, passing attacks. While I agree that updated designations are needed, I'd be concerned about the definition and implementation. Having one guy choose designations (ala FSharks) with no clear parameters for those designations seems like a terrible idea. I think the average FF owner may find it even less appealing if a new system was not obvious/transparent and that could make players less likely to go for IDP.
Bottom line is that as long as everyone knows going into the draft what players are labeled then it really doesn’t matter. Its the same for everyone and you value however you think based on the player as designated.
That being said, once the draft is over no positions should change mid season because that is where unfairness can creep in. We have a salary/contract league and we even go so far to lock positions for the duration of the contract. That way when you sign a player you know what you are getting for the duration of the contract. It has worked really well and nobody has complained because you know what you are getting.
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tripp
Footballguy
As you can see from the foregoing, we've tried to keep up with box safeties. As you prolly know, there are fewer that meet the ol' Keanu Neal prototype.
I've long wanted to construct a tracker similar to those like Footballguy Ryan Sitzmann's 3-down LB tracker. I finally dove in this summer. 2/3 of it was easy. Done in 30 minutes. The other 1/3 was nuts. Is nuts. Will continue to drive me nuts like a NASCAR belt buckle.
But it's fascinating and fun to monitor. Your feedback is welcome: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UFnoc1YiTjI3x0sFk9IEm_SAnlM/edit?usp=drivesdk
I've long wanted to construct a tracker similar to those like Footballguy Ryan Sitzmann's 3-down LB tracker. I finally dove in this summer. 2/3 of it was easy. Done in 30 minutes. The other 1/3 was nuts. Is nuts. Will continue to drive me nuts like a NASCAR belt buckle.
But it's fascinating and fun to monitor. Your feedback is welcome: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UFnoc1YiTjI3x0sFk9IEm_SAnlM/edit?usp=drivesdk
tripp
Footballguy
NOPE! I changed the entry under "Certainty" from High to Medium after the last preseason game. I'd still be surprised if Chinn was the primary deep guy while Woods was the primary box/slot guy for the entirety of the season. Not only has Chinn been that hybrid type for two years, but Woods has been the primary deep guy (75%) for the majority of his 5-year career.
Just putting the numbers in scaled context here, Chiin played 23 of 31 snaps deep in August. He's played over 2,000 regular season snaps in his career. Woods has played over 4,000.
Just putting the numbers in scaled context here, Chiin played 23 of 31 snaps deep in August. He's played over 2,000 regular season snaps in his career. Woods has played over 4,000.
