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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread***


snitwitch

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5 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I think this is an interesting discussion but Donald Trump is completely incapable of understanding any of this article. Seriously.

He's capable of understanding it, he just caves to the military establishment.  He's been boxed into this corner from the very beginning wrt Russia/Ukraine.  That 2 years of fearmongering over Putin & Russia wasn't just some accident. 

It may have been a dim view by your measure but he at least recognized going in that it was time to move past the cold war.  It's Official Washington that finds an end to militarism so unthinkable.  Time to accept that Presidents are just figureheads for military/intelligence/oil/media complexes that are a lot bigger than they are.  

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Just now, ren hoek said:

He's capable of understanding it, he just caves to the military establishment.  He's been boxed into this corner from the very beginning wrt Russia/Ukraine.  That 2 years of fearmongering over Putin & Russia wasn't just some accident. 

It may have been a dim view by your measure but he at least recognized going in that it was time to move past the cold war.  It's Official Washington that finds an end to militarism so unthinkable.  Time to accept that Presidents are just figureheads for military/intelligence/oil/media complexes that are a lot bigger than they are.  

I guess we just differ in our estimation of this man. I have seen zero sense of history or geopolitical understanding from him beyond transactionalism.

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17 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Ren, Merry is the kind of guy that if he worked three rungs down from the President and within 5 minutes of a meeting at his beck and call.... Trump would never ever speak to. Like Vindman.

But you're right.  I agree, Trump won't ever have the wherewithal to venture onto the American Conservative or read Norman Angell, or step outside whatever this bubble is that he lives in.  A real shame.  

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4 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

He's capable of understanding it, he just caves to the military establishment.  He's been boxed into this corner from the very beginning wrt Russia/Ukraine.  That 2 years of fearmongering over Putin & Russia wasn't just some accident. 

It may have been a dim view by your measure but he at least recognized going in that it was time to move past the cold war.  It's Official Washington that finds an end to militarism so unthinkable.  Time to accept that Presidents are just figureheads for military/intelligence/oil/media complexes that are a lot bigger than they are.  

You know, based on what I've been reading about Russian spending and Tulsi Gabbard, if you put these thoughts in a blog you might just get yourself some cash from Moscow. It's worth a shot anyhow.

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4 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

That call summary we stashed in the seperate highly classified server? Yeah that was just an accident. LOL. 

That's rubbish. It's not like someone can just accidentally click the wrong file folder. 

Vindland's testimony on this specific point was incredibly interesting to me.  He refused to throw anyone under the bus for this.  What he said, basically (someone correct me if I'm wrong), is that he took his concerns to the two IC lawyers and they talked about the concerns for a while.  They also talked about the call transcript, and one of the lawyers was basically like "hey, to be on the safe side (i.e., to make sure this isn't leaked), let's throw this thing in our secure server."  He did the same thing about leaving off the name "Burisma" from the call transcript.  He just attributed it to an common accidental human error.  He wasn't willing to say that this was done for any nefarious purposes. 

It makes him more believable on all the other (bad) stuff that he did say:  He's just sticking to the facts. 

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3 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

Every elected official that keeps saying "Russia hoax" should be investigated. They are saying thousands of people in our IC are lying to the American people. I want to know why they are taking this stance. 

Because they can. The same reason why Graham and others can contradict themselves constantly based on their previous statements. Previously party leadership would have smacked them down for it but the climate we’re in now not only accepts it but encourages it. They are trying to create their own reality because it works.

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On 11/16/2019 at 1:30 PM, timschochet said:

Yes in this case we need to arm the neo Nazis. 

Just wanted to say thanks for your incredible honesty here.  I guess giving guns/training to neonazis is certainly a strategy, even if it does push further and further strains of extremism.  Can't wait til we're arming ISIS to combat the Chinese/Russian threat.  

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A couple surprises today, one I think somewhat for Trump, one somewhat bad: 

The somewhat good surprise was when Vindman confirmed that the call record was accurate. All of the conspiracy talk about ellipses can be tossed out, all of the silly arguments about how the transcript wasn’t a transcript, etc. We can forget all that. (personally I always thought it was irrelevant anyway since I believe, and still do, that the transcript we have is damaging enough as it is.) 

The somewhat bad news is that Volker, the Republican’s witness, completely exonerated Joe Biden and made Trump look absurd and conspiratorial, and the continuing request for Hunter Biden as a witness look foolish.  

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1 hour ago, TheMagus said:

I think what he was trying to say and dancing all around the issue was that Ukraine making a general statement about corruption and cracking down on it in their own interests was not a bad thing and in his mind (sounds like he was trying to justify it to himself) that any investigation into Burisma or corruption was not connected to the Bidens. 

I mean that is a real stretch because he knew what was going on, but at the same time he was very likely trying to do what was best for US-Ukraine diplomacy and they couldn't avoid the Giuliani issue so they tried to steer it instead.

It's also apparent that as much as Trump & Pals wanted to avoid the State, NSC & IC staff, they needed Volker to make the deal happen. He knew who to call and how to arrange things. They needed his expertise. - It's possible that Volker did not understand what was happening or the full depth of it because he comes from a diplomatic world where abnormalities like that do not occur. He knows it now apparently but even so he does not seem to be able to grasp his involvement in it, he tries to shoehorn things into standard diplomatic language.

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4 minutes ago, KCitons said:

How do you explain the discrepancy between Vindman's written review from Hill and Morrison's concerns?

I don't know but he just testified under oath that multiple people shared concerns with him about Vindman's judgement. I don't know what to make of a written review. I'm sure we'll learn more when Hill testifies.

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8 minutes ago, KCitons said:

How do you explain the discrepancy between Vindman's written review from Hill and Morrison's concerns?

There's nothing in Vindman's entire career to suggest he has bad judgment.  In fact quite the opposite. 

Morrison just testified that he heard Trump request Ukraine to investigate the Bidens though.  That's enough right there to throw Trump from office.  

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1 minute ago, jamny said:

I don't know but he just testified under oath that multiple people shared concerns with him about Vindman's judgement. I don't know what to make of a written review. I'm sure we'll learn more when Hill testifies.

Hopefully we will find out from Hill.

Just a thought. Do you think it's possible, due to changes in how this administration was going to interact with Ukraine, that people such as Vindman and Yovanovitch, were going to cause problems for any alternate channel or request for investigating a U.S. citizen?

The question I would like answered, what happened in the first half of 2019, that would change how Vindman and Yovanovitch are seen as anything but Patriots, serving their country first.

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On 11/16/2019 at 1:43 PM, timschochet said:

I’d like to address this one point because Devin Nunes said the same thing in his closing remarks. I considered it wishful thinking and still do. 

I find the testimony absolutely riveting so far and I expect it will be more so next year week, especially Sondland and Vindman. On the other hand I’m quite obviously a political junkie so my opinion on this is not to be trusted. So let’s put it out there: putting aside your views on the issues, have the two days of hearings so far been interesting to watch? Dull? What do you think? 

Okay, just clicked on a live cspan feed of this Volker guy testifying, and I can confirm, this is an absolute snoozefest of a boutique issue.  Volker was a McCain Institute guy, it's wild how their hawkish views on Ukraine are presented as the 'responsible' 'adult in the room' stance.  This is boring, it's pointless, it will go nowhere.  I'm a political junky too, it's not that this is some inside baseball, it's just a privilege/status issue that people aren't going to care about.  

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18 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

There's nothing in Vindman's entire career to suggest he has bad judgment.  In fact quite the opposite. 

Morrison just testified that he heard Trump request Ukraine to investigate the Bidens though.  That's enough right there to throw Trump from office.  

Oh, I see now. The concern about Vindman's "judgment" is that he would do the right thing and not cover up Trump asking the Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.   @jamny

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48 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

Every elected official that keeps saying "Russia hoax" should be investigated. They are saying thousands of people in our IC are lying to the American people. I want to know why they are taking this stance. 

When the IG and Durham reports come out you will learn a lot.  The problem with our media is they have not reported about the FISA abuse.

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8 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

Volker testifying that Putin and Erdogan are very corrupt yet Trump frequently gives them an audience.  Trump is supposedly concerned about corruption though lolz. 

Corruption = not allowing me to do what I want.

Therefore, the rebrand what "Corruption" is, is the goal. If Trump is successful in rebranding "Corruption" as truth, and truth as "Corruption", he is then able to do what he wants without question because who will believe corruption when corruption is in fact, truth?

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4 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

When the IG and Durham reports come out you will learn a lot.  The problem with our media is they have not reported about the FISA abuse.

How is this relevant to Trump trying to bribe the Ukraine?

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35 minutes ago, timschochet said:

A couple surprises today, one I think somewhat for Trump, one somewhat bad: 

The somewhat good surprise was when Vindman confirmed that the call record was accurate. All of the conspiracy talk about ellipses can be tossed out, all of the silly arguments about how the transcript wasn’t a transcript, etc. We can forget all that. (personally I always thought it was irrelevant anyway since I believe, and still do, that the transcript we have is damaging enough as it is.) 

The somewhat bad news is that Volker, the Republican’s witness, completely exonerated Joe Biden and made Trump look absurd and conspiratorial, and the continuing request for Hunter Biden as a witness look foolish.  

Voelker simply said he holds Joe Biden to a high regard.  He had no idea of the Biden/Burisma relationship details.

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3 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

When the IG and Durham reports come out you will learn a lot.  The problem with our media is they have not reported about the FISA abuse.

What is in these, supposed, reports that you know about yet others are not privy to knowing about? What position in government do you hold that allows you to know things the public won't know until there is a report? What is there to learn? Is this the November surprise we were promised last year?

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9 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

Oh, I see now. The concern about Vindman's "judgment" is that he would do the right thing and not cover up Trump asking the Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.   @jamny

Where do you get that from?

 

I think one of the concerns might be how he perceived the "demand" from Trump.

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