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Turkey invades Syria: Update- ISIS rebuilds (1 Viewer)

Shula-holic said:
OK, I'm good with that.  Are all the regimes in the area not going to be hostile to this new state, should it exist, without an American backed military force to sustain it or do you advocate for a long term American troop deployment?  It's either/or, let's not play naive to the rulers in the region and how they would respond
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Do you think Turkey would invade a Kurdistan of what was Northern Iraq if the American president is not named Donald Trump?

 
Redwes25 said:
Why are we nation building in Northern Syria in my scenario.  Why are we carving up a portion of Turkey for this state?  How is the US the military force to create Kurdistan...  None of these things I have proposed or suggested. I have suggested that Trump continuing doing what he did for three years which is forbid Turkey from invading.  He did this for years and about a week ago he changed his mind and basically said he would withdraw forces when faced with threat of an invasion.  

I do agree at somepoint our forces will leave Syria under any circumstances but not until ISIS was defeated fully.  If Turkey invades then maybe we end up in the same place but at least the Kurds wouldn't have removed their fortifications from the border at our request.
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So you are advocating for what was the status quo, which was not an independent Kurdistan.  That wasn't my impression initially.  I'm hopeful we do end up in the same place as you put it, it's the best case scenario right now for the Kurds.  I think we hope for the same result, maybe just not share in belief of what the actions/reactions of different factions in the area will be, which I admit can be difficult to gauge.

 
Shula-holic said:
I'm not sure what myself and some all did, but ok
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Defeating ISIS 2 : This time without allies.

It seems like something could have been done better the first time around.

Maybe, if only, someone hadn't abandoned their only allies with boots on the ground in the region...

 
Shula-holic said:
So you are advocating for what was the status quo, which was not an independent Kurdistan.  That wasn't my impression initially.  I'm hopeful we do end up in the same place as you put it, it's the best case scenario right now for the Kurds.  I think we hope for the same result, maybe just not share in belief of what the actions/reactions of different factions in the area will be, which I admit can be difficult to gauge.
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I said the Kurds should govern themselves.  I think an independent Kurdistan is a good idea but so are other possibilities.  You keep thinking an independent Kurdistan is done with US fighting a war to make that happen.  I don't think that is the case.  Of course, we will never know now given what has happened.  

 
msommer said:
Defeating ISIS 2 : This time without allies.

It seems like something could have been done better the first time around.

Maybe, if only, someone hadn't abandoned their only allies with boots on the ground in the region...
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Already said I supported that part, you're arguing with the wrong guy

 
msommer said:
I don't share your conviction. At all.
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Why?  We aren't there now and they moved into Syria.  What makes northern Iraq more acceptable to the Turks?  They've long stated they'd never accept a Kurdish state on their border, it has nothing to do with who leads America.

 
Shula-holic said:
Already said I supported that part, you're arguing with the wrong guy
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You seem to think that this policy is fine since it is where we end up anyway.  I disagree with that but even if it is why are we allowing this to happen now and allowing ISIS prisoners to escape.  Who is our ally to defeat ISIS in the future when that needs to happen again?  I don't see one that is for sure.  

 
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Shula-holic said:
Why?  We aren't there now and they moved into Syria.  What makes northern Iraq more acceptable to the Turks?  They've long stated they'd never accept a Kurdish state on their border, it has nothing to do with who leads America.
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Because your president wilted like a spring flower in frost the first time Erdogan started yelling at him (which is really the kindest interpretation of what happened).

 
Shula-holic said:
Why?  We aren't there now and they moved into Syria.  What makes northern Iraq more acceptable to the Turks?  They've long stated they'd never accept a Kurdish state on their border, it has nothing to do with who leads America.
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We told them no for 30 years in Northern Iraq and we have never had troops there enforcing that statement....

 
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msommer said:
Well, IMHO you either abandon your allies and have to do ISIS over again or stick with your allies and don't have to do them.

Can't have it both ways
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Again, where did I support an immediate pullout?  I've said multiple times we can't stay there, I wish we had done more to broker a peace between the Kurds and Turks before we left and also come up with a plan for ISIS detainees.  This isn't that hard to read.

 
Redwes25 said:
We told them no for 30 years in Northern Iraq and we have never had troops there enforcing that statement....
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There was this guy there, I think his name was Saddam something or other.  Then the US military was there, I missed where a Kurdish state ever existed.  Must have escaped my history book.  

 
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msommer said:
Because your president wilted like a spring flower in frost the first time Erdogan started yelling at him (which is really the kindest interpretation of what happened).
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If you want to take Trump shots, plenty of threads here for that.  You can be critical of how he handled the pullout, fair enough.  Somehow, I know this is big news, the Turks and Kurds managed to have a dislike for each other pre-Trump.  

 
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Shula-holic said:
There was this guy there, I think his name was Saddam something or other.  Then the US military was there, I missed where a Kurdish state ever existed.  Must have escaped my history book.  
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You forget the 15 years of no fly zone and autonomous state that started in 1992?  Also our troops have not been there since 2011 and have never been there with a goal of creating an autonomous region.

eta - My point is US statement not to invade would have been enough.  But our President has no backbone and is a joke.  He green lighted this whole thing and now is just screaming about sanctions to cover his ###.

 
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Redwes25 said:
You forget the 15 years of no fly zone and autonomous state that started in 1992?  Also our troops have not been there since 2011.
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Nope, I recall a no fly zone.  What I don't recall is a Kurdish state or as was phrased "Kurdistan of Northern Iraq", which was what msommer was claiming the Turks would not attack in northern Iraq if it were established.

 
Shula-holic said:
Nope, I recall a no fly zone.  What I don't recall is a Kurdish state or as was phrased "Kurdistan of Northern Iraq", which was what msommer was claiming the Turks would not attack in northern Iraq if it were established.
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Ok so you acknowledge they have had autonomy since 1992 without any Iraqi army and there have been long stretches without US troops and turkey has done nothing even though they have their own army. 

 
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Redwes25 said:
Ok so you acknowledge they have had autonomy since 1992 without any Iraqi army and there have been long stretches without US troops and turkey has done nothing even though they have their own army. 
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Sure I can, and I'd hope you can also acknowledge that there's a huge difference in a semi-autonomous region and a nation state.  The Turks have stated many times in the past this was always something they'd never tolerate.

 
bananafish said:
Except that no US President has ever defied the advice of his entire cabinet, the the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the united chorus of our nation's military leadership (except for, perhaps, Trump's favorite felon General Michael Flynn, the criminal Turkish agent) to set up and then abandon our dearest ally in a region in which we have few. Our alliance with the Kurds was one of the few things we got right for god's sake. They did most of the fighting against ISIS, who were such a threat that Trump called for the complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the United States (the parts that weren't unconstitutional are still in force, by the way) and were, pound for pound, the best investment we've made in that god-forsaken region.

So sure, Turkey's attitude toward the Kurds may have "nothing to do with who leads America", but our foreign policy used to have nothing to do with who leads Turkey.

Your circuitous argument that the betrayal wasn't that bad because Kurdistan this and Turkey that and what about Assad is complete BS designed to cover, yet again, for the incompetent con man running the country.

Maybe it'll make you feel even better about Trump's shameful capitulation to know we have 50 tactical nuclear weapons sitting at a Turkish airbase which are now 'Erdogan's hostages"? 

Don't worry, I'm not expecting a truthful response, especially when this vitally important issue is on the table:
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Good grief.  Let me help you, because you apparently are having some issues tonight, I specifically said I disagreed with Trump on the way we pulled out.  I don't know a clearer way to state it and have stated it.  Yet somehow every discussion is coming back to Trump.  Shockingly I don't 100% agree with any politician or party.  I get that you seem to circle back to Trump, apparently in every thought in daily life, but we all don't work that way.

 
We didn't even give the Kurds the courtesy of time. We unlocked the front door for the Turks and left in the middle of the night.

 
bananafish said:
Of course you admitted that you "disagreed with Trump on the way we pulled out" (there's not a human being alive who doesn't), because you wanted your next claim, that the Kurdish situation would've been the same in the long run anyways, to still retain some modicum of credibility.

Defending the indefensible is only effective if people believe you are posting in good faith, so you picked the least-worst facet and decided to argue about it for two pages.

And yes, I most certainly do have issues, lots of them. How easily Trump has convinced millions of people that loyalty to him is more important than America has been a real eye-opener for me and made me realize we may never recover.

"Home of the brave" my ###.
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I'm not worried about my credibility with anyone.  I just posted my belief, you can disagree with it if you wish.  It's not going to hurt my feelings and certainly not in the context on a message board discussing political issues.  That's obviously not a reciprocal thing here as I simply stated a belief that differed from yours and you decided to reply in an insulting way.  It's not a fruitful discussion when it comes down to that, good luck to you.

 
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SoBeDad said:
Backstabbing aside, isn't there a possibility this ends up bring a better and more permanent solution for the Kurds in Northern Syria?
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So far it’s so much better that Doctors Without Borders just announced they’re evacuating all personnel.  

 
A few hours after Trump announces that he is sending Pence to meet Erdogan, Erdogan says no- he will meet with no one but Trump. 

What an embarrassment. 

 
Henry Ford said:
So far it’s so much better that Doctors Without Borders just announced they’re evacuating all personnel.  
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So how long until Trump tweets that the situation has gotten so good that Syria no longer needs to rely on charity for medical treatments?

 
timschochet said:
A few hours after Trump announces that he is sending Pence to meet Erdogan, Erdogan says no- he will meet with no one but Trump. 

What an embarrassment. 
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:lmao:

If you are Erdogan - why would you settle fro anything less than Trump?  Kim Jong-un gets White House Invites, Presidential visits to North Korea, special all-paid-for vacations in 5-Star resorts.

 
I suspect this is just a delaying tactic - until Turkey accomplishes its goals (or takes control of whatever territory it wants).

Once Turkey is done ravaging the countryside, they will sit down to discuss a cease-fire.

 
Erdogan’s spokesman has now announced that Erdogan WILL meet with Pence. 

Cleanup on aisle five? Meanwhile the bombing continues. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
:lmao:

If you are Erdogan - why would you settle fro anything less than Trump?  Kim Jong-un gets White House Invites, Presidential visits to North Korea, special all-paid-for vacations in 5-Star resorts.
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Also - what Pence and Pompeo say will likely mean nothing 10 minutes after they leave when Trump tweets out the opposite.

 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-turkey-kurdish-deaths-civilians-female-politician-hevrin-khalaf-future-syria-party-a9153796.html

Female Kurdish politician ‘executed’ by pro-Turkish militants 

Turkish-backed groups have killed nine civilians, including a female politician, in northeastern Syria, according to a human rights monitor.

Hevrin Khalaf, the Future Syria Party’s secretary-general, and her driver were ambushed and shot dead on Saturday, according to Kurdish forces.

“The nine civilians were executed at different moments south of the town of Tal Abyad,” the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said....

In a statement, the political arm of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) said Khalaf was “taken out of her car during a Turkish-backed attack and executed by Turkish-backed mercenary factions”.

“This is clear evidence that the Turkish state is continuing its criminal policy towards unarmed civilians,” the SDF said.
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Trump just now: “What’s going on in Syria is not our concern, not our problem. I’d like a ceasefire for humanitarian reasons but strategically we’re in a much more brilliant position than we were a week ago. Let Russia and Syria and Turkey and the Kurds sort it out; not our issue.” 

 
wut?

Josh Dawsey
@jdawsey1

"It's not our problem," Trump says in Oval Office of Turkey's invasion into Syria. He adds that the Kurds are "not angels." Also, he says this: "They've got a lot of sand over there.... There's a lot of sand they can play with."
11:20 AM · Oct 16, 2019·Twitter Web App

 
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Reactions: Ned
No critcism against Russia, or Turkey, or Syria. But plenty of criticism against the Kurds. And what’s happening over there is “strategically brilliant.” 

 
Shula-holic said:
Tell me how.  I've followed the whole situation from the initial unrest under Assad fairly closely.
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Sorry it's taken me a while to get back to you, this just feels like one of those complicated discussions.

- Please see the ####show of a press conference given by the Decider in Chief before we get started on this. My principle point, and there are many, is consider the decision maker on this and how he processes information. It is fact free and this specific decision was influenced by Erdogan and Putin, not by the careful analysis and strategy offered by our military, diplomatic and intelligence services.

 
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Don Quixote said:
wut?

Josh Dawsey
@jdawsey1

"It's not our problem," Trump says in Oval Office of Turkey's invasion into Syria. He adds that the Kurds are "not angels." Also, he says this: "They've got a lot of sand over there.... There's a lot of sand they can play with."
11:20 AM · Oct 16, 2019·Twitter Web App
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A lot of sand?   :lmao:   :lmao:   :lmao:    Imbecile

 

 
Marshall Cohen@MarshallCohen · 4m

These quotes are from Trump, moments ago, but they mirror talking points from Erdogan, Putin and Assad. 

"The PKK... is probably worse at terror and more of a terrorist threat in many ways than ISIS."

"Russia hates ISIS as much as the United States does." 

"Syria hates ISIS."

 
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