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Turkey invades Syria: Update- ISIS rebuilds (1 Viewer)

timschochet said:
Two people have now pointed out the Saudi Arabia hypocrisy. But your post is far more flawed than that. What makes me sad is that, like many isolationists I think you mean well. But the world is not as simplistic as you’re making out, and your ideas, along with Trump’s terrible execution of them, will make this country less safe and worse off. 
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any idea of what we are trying to accomplish?  the only thing I've seen over the last 40 years is complete mayhem & a bunch of people getting killed.   they do a great job without us there.

 
irishidiot said:
any idea of what we are trying to accomplish?  the only thing I've seen over the last 40 years is complete mayhem & a bunch of people getting killed.   they do a great job without us there.
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The US, for whatever reason, can never figure out foreign relations with the various Middle Eastern nations effectively, and hasn't done so for decades. Different goals? Different mindsets? I have no clue.

 
Kal El said:
The US, for whatever reason, can never figure out foreign relations with the various Middle Eastern nations effectively, and hasn't done so for decades. Different goals? Different mindsets? I have no clue.
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I guess that's what I'm asking & it appears no one knows either-------------including here & in the State department.

 
SoBeDad said:
From Richard Engel:

The top Kurdish commander in Syria, General Mazlum Kobane told @NBCNews he is trying to pull his forces back from Ras al-Ayn, but Turkey is not allowing it. He alleges Turkey does not want Kurdish fighters to withdraw - a condition of the ceasefire - but to kill them.

11:01 AM · Oct 19, 2019·Twitter Web

A senior US official and the top Kurdish commander both tell @NBCNews that the US-Turkish ceasefire is NOT holding. They say Turkey is using the ceasefire to continue to advance and take territory in and around the border city of Ras al-Ayn.
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It is not a ceasefire. Turkey said so 5 minutes after it was announced. Don’t give Trump credit for claiming that was agreed. 

 
Drunken Cowboy said:
You are giving Trump way too much credit.  He was told exactly what would happen if we pulled out. At a minimum he didn't care and wanted to distract from impeachment hearings and say he was fulfilling a campaign promise. 
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love your username but any idea of why we are there?   

 
irishidiot said:
now.
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Well, now we’re in the Middle East because there are a number of states and non-state actors who threaten us and our allies and our presence there is intended to both strike at those forces and provide a target for them so they strike our military abroad and not come here and strike American soil. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Well, now we’re in the Middle East because there are a number of states and non-state actors who threaten us and our allies and our presence there is intended to both strike at those forces and provide a target for them so they strike our military abroad and not come here and strike American soil. 
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okay, cool, the stock answer straight out of the playbook.  read what you just wrote.   I don't believe that is your stance.  but at least you gave an answer.

 
Henry Ford said:
Well, now we’re in the Middle East because there are a number of states and non-state actors who threaten us and our allies and our presence there is intended to both strike at those forces and provide a target for them so they strike our military abroad and not come here and strike American soil. 
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I would give you about the same answer. Going into Iraq after 9/11 was dumb. Going after ISIS was not.  We were keeping a very small presence there to keep the peace. 

 
irishidiot said:
seems like the bad guys we take out over the years to get the good guy in ends up being the same crap that gets our soldiers killed & nothing changes.  rinse repeat.
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You would agree, though, that there are times taking the bad guys out is a sacrifice worth making, right?  Some of our interventions have been misguided and made things worse.  Others critically important and, if nothing else, served our interests.

Regardless, there are a lot of really important reasons to be methodical about a decision of this magnitude.  We left our allies to the slaughterhouse.  There can be no defense for that.

 
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irishidiot said:
okay, cool, the stock answer straight out of the playbook.  read what you just wrote.   I don't believe that is your stance.  but at least you gave an answer.
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I do believe that.  In general.  I don’t believe that for some individual incursions into the Middle East. 

 
cobalt_27 said:
You would agree, though, that there are times taking the bad guys out is a sacrifice worth making, right?  Some of our interventions have been misguided and made things worse.  Others critically important and, if nothing else, served our interests.

Regardless, there are a lot of really important reasons to be methodical about a decision of this magnitude.  We left our allies to the slaughterhouse.  There can be no defense for that.
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allies?????????????????  They change daily over there.  It's a tribal religion thing that has nothing to do with us.  the stuff over there NEVER NEVER ever ends.   sooner we recognize that the better off we will be.  kills me this posturing with our political parties on this  & helping people over there.  It ends in bloodshed regardless.   They relishes the whole death & destruction over there.  They cut peoples heads off for being of a different religion.

You tell me-------------all of you on this damn board, how you deal with that?

All ears here.

 
irishidiot said:
allies?????????????????  They change daily over there.  It's a tribal religion thing that has nothing to do with us.  the stuff over there NEVER NEVER ever ends.   sooner we recognize that the better off we will be.  kills me this posturing with our political parties on this  & helping people over there.  It ends in bloodshed regardless.   They relishes the whole death & destruction over there.  They cut peoples heads off for being of a different religion.

You tell me-------------all of you on this damn board, how you deal with that?

All ears here.
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So, you don’t know our allies there.  Sad.

 
irishidiot said:
wondering what is wrong with backing the Sunni?
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We had forged strong connection with displaced Kurds as far back as 2014.  They helped us instrumentally in defeating ISIS in that region.  We provided intel and air support, and they destroyed the caliphate.  Until our retreat, was still a tenuous situation but under control,  but now with Turkish tanks lined up to clear out—ethnic cleansing style—our Kurdish allies, we didn’t even give them so much a heads up.  Trump and Erdogan came to an arrangement, Trump, without consulting our own foreign security council, ordered us to leave immediately and green lighted Turks to move in and start lopping off heads of our former allies.

 
irishidiot said:
I mean are they really that different or just different takes on the Koran?
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In some respects, yes.  Part of the attraction with this group was their human rights approach.  These truly were the good guys.

And even if not angels, they helped us in a time of need and we just dug their graves.  Functionally our retreat destroyed them and will never be forgotten. Our outreach in the future—when we need a presence to serve national security interests—is severely diminished by Trump.  As a practical matter, the retreat was bad enough and definitely I’ll-times.  But, then to have our leader basically say “#### em” lots of sand to play in now, kids will be kids when they died for us, it’s just vomit worthy.  

 
irishidiot said:
allies?????????????????  They change daily over there.  It's a tribal religion thing that has nothing to do with us.  the stuff over there NEVER NEVER ever ends.   sooner we recognize that the better off we will be.  kills me this posturing with our political parties on this  & helping people over there.  It ends in bloodshed regardless.   They relishes the whole death & destruction over there.  They cut peoples heads off for being of a different religion.

You tell me-------------all of you on this damn board, how you deal with that?

All ears here.
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What the Middle East is at this point is our fault.  Not just the US, mostly the British but also the French and Dutch and a few others. 
 

Colonialism had a blueprint. The Brits were the best at it.  You make a border that never existed around 2-4 ethnic groups.  The smallest of those groups, you make the elite.  Their kids get educated in Europe, your military backs them, they get every privilege.  They convert to Christianity, often.  And they know that if they ever kick you (the colonist) out the larger groups will drag them into the street and slaughter them for decades of mistreatment.  In return, you take all of the resources of the country.  
 

This isn’t something that happened by accident. 

 
cobalt_27 said:
We had forged strong connection with displaced Kurds as far back as 2014.  They helped us instrumentally in defeating ISIS in that region.  We provided intel and air support, and they destroyed the caliphate.  Until our retreat, was still a tenuous situation but under control,  but now with Turkish tanks lined up to clear out—ethnic cleansing style—our Kurdish allies, we didn’t even give them so much a heads up.  Trump and Erdogan came to an arrangement, Trump, without consulting our own foreign security council, ordered us to leave immediately and green lighted Turks to move in and start lopping off heads of our former allies.
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guess it still comes back to my original question.   Why are we there???   Stop ISIS & terrorists before they get here by backing Kurds?   serious?  

 
irishidiot said:
guess it still comes back to my original question.   Why are we there???   Stop ISIS & terrorists before they get here by backing Kurds?   serious?  
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probably the least involvement we’ve had in the Middle East In decades was the late 90s to mid 2001.  
 

So, yeah. Kinda. 

 
cobalt_27 said:
In some respects, yes.  Part of the attraction with this group was their human rights approach.  These truly were the good guys.

And even if not angels, they helped us in a time of need and we just dug their graves.  Functionally our retreat destroyed them and will never be forgotten. Our outreach in the future—when we need a presence to serve national security interests—is severely diminished by Trump.  As a practical matter, the retreat was bad enough and definitely I’ll-times.  But, then to have our leader basically say “#### em” lots of sand to play in now, kids will be kids when they died for us, it’s just vomit worthy.  
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sorry man, seems like you might have more of a personal knowledge of this thing.   Our retreat in Vietnam ended with 50,000 young killed---- We were too late by about 6 years. 

 
irishidiot said:
guess it still comes back to my original question.   Why are we there???   Stop ISIS & terrorists before they get here by backing Kurds?   serious?  
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ISIS is but one goal.  The other has evolved under Trump in his “max pressure” campaign on Iran, who now have free reign on Syrian oil fields they didn’t have access to until this week.  The wisdom of the campaign and it’s consistency notwithstanding, Trump just undercut a branch of his own foreign policy directive.   Israel is more vulnerable.  Known bad actors, Assad, Erdogan, Putin especially are empowered.  We had relatively few service members there but the position (location, location, location) backed by our superior intel and hardware kept the region at bay.  

Again, ISIS fighters 10,000 strong were captured and held by Kurds...now freed and no doubt will reconstitute in some form.  So, beyond the downstream effects of the decision, the method by which we reversed course diminishes our national security, diminishes future alliances, and gave 3 very bad actors much greater strength than they had a week ago.  I can accept emotionally being embarrassed, but I cannot accept the unilateral, thoughtless, harried, non-communicative decision to just say “#### it.”  It put our troops in a bad spot, we left allies to slaughter, and single handedly destabilized the region to the benefit of the genocidal dictators.

Not a good day at the office.

 
Henry Ford said:
So what? If the zombie apocalypse is coming to your home and your buddy says “alright, I have a plan to stop them.  Abandon the outer defenses and pull back” and while you’re abandoning them and pulling back and waiting for the plan he slips out the back door alone, what’s your view of that guy? Even if he’s shouting “don’t eat them, zombies!” while he runs?
 
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Now that's an overt metaphor

 
Henry Ford said:
What the Middle East is at this point is our fault.  Not just the US, mostly the British but also the French and Dutch and a few others. 
 

Colonialism had a blueprint. The Brits were the best at it.  You make a border that never existed around 2-4 ethnic groups.  The smallest of those groups, you make the elite.  Their kids get educated in Europe, your military backs them, they get every privilege.  They convert to Christianity, often.  And they know that if they ever kick you (the colonist) out the larger groups will drag them into the street and slaughter them for decades of mistreatment.  In return, you take all of the resources of the country.  
 

This isn’t something that happened by accident. 
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This is my point to perfection.  England can't impose their morals & laws on a people that never had those laws & neither can we without loss of life.  I'm just sick of it.

 
irishidiot said:
This is my point to perfection.  England can't impose their morals & laws on a people that never had those laws & neither can we without loss of life.  I'm just sick of it.
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It wasn’t about imposing morals. It was about taking resources.  And now it’s about what that time has created, which we now need to defend against. 
 

What Trump did guaranteed another generation will have to defend against it as well. 

 
cobalt_27 said:
ISIS is but one goal.  The other has evolved under Trump in his “max pressure” campaign on Iran, who now have free reign on Syrian oil fields they didn’t have access to until this week.  The wisdom of the campaign and it’s consistency notwithstanding, Trump just undercut a branch of his own foreign policy directive.   Israel is more vulnerable.  Known bad actors, Assad, Erdogan, Putin especially are empowered.  We had relatively few service members there but the position (location, location, location) backed by our superior intel and hardware kept the region at bay.  

Again, ISIS fighters 10,000 strong were captured and held by Kurds...now freed and no doubt will reconstitute in some form.  So, beyond the downstream effects of the decision, the method by which we reversed course diminishes our national security, diminishes future alliances, and gave 3 very bad actors much greater strength than they had a week ago.  I can accept emotionally being embarrassed, but I cannot accept the unilateral, thoughtless, harried, non-communicative decision to just say “#### it.”  It put our troops in a bad spot, we left allies to slaughter, and single handedly destabilized the region to the benefit of the genocidal dictators.

Not a good day at the office.
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all you guys-girls on this forum realize that the military complex is for conflict?   guys in charge of the military graduate from West Point.   So you really think they don't want a  fight?

I'm just saying the Middle East is going to be one cluster for another 1000 years.   Back the Kurds this year, back the Sunni in 2032.  I'd bet all I have on a future bet on the previous.  sad thing is in that period good people that we send over, mostly kids are going to die that don't have to.    All over a deal that we have no understanding of. 

 
Henry Ford said:
It wasn’t about imposing morals. It was about taking resources.  And now it’s about what that time has created, which we now need to defend against. 
 

What Trump did guaranteed another generation will have to defend against it as well. 
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so which places in the Middle East should we defend?   Somalia?   Libya?   Syria?  Iraq?  Congo?(congo a little south), 

I'm just saying that it doesn't matter which side you take.  the names change & it's the same result.   unless you are Islam they tolerate you but when your usefulness is over you are just another piece of junk.

 
Henry Ford said:
It wasn’t about imposing morals. It was about taking resources.  And now it’s about what that time has created, which we now need to defend against. 
 

What Trump did guaranteed another generation will have to defend against it as well. 
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yep & what every Senator & Representative of ours has done for the last 70 years(I'm giving them a break).

when does it stop?

when man?

 
irishidiot said:
any idea of what we are trying to accomplish?  the only thing I've seen over the last 40 years is complete mayhem & a bunch of people getting killed.   they do a great job without us there.
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Sure. 

Our main goal in the Middle East is to prevent radical, extremist Islam, which comes in many different varieties, from gaining control of the flow of oil from that region of the world to ourselves and the western powers. Everything we do is with that goal in mind. We also want to destroy the main Islamic terrorist organizations, but that is secondary to the primary goal. 

 
timschochet said:
Sure. 

Our main goal in the Middle East is to prevent radical, extremist Islam, which comes in many different varieties, from gaining control of the flow of oil from that region of the world to ourselves and the western powers. Everything we do is with that goal in mind. We also want to destroy the main Islamic terrorist organizations, but that is secondary to the primary goal. 
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Saudis? 

 
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