Joe Summer
Footballguy
Gotta give Flores credit for not hiding behind "injury" as an excuse to bench Tua. Not many coaches in the 21st century would have the guts to be that honest about a struggling first round rookie.
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QB Tua Tagovailoa, MIA (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Long Ball Larry
- Start date
Altitude and cold give Denver a home field advantage during the pandemic. Christian Wilkins, who missed another game due to COVID would've slowed down the Bronco rushing attack a little.
Fitzpatrick is better than Tua at this stage and he almost drove the Fins 99 yards with the game on the line. That pass to Gesicki was sick. Fitzpatrick has excellent escapability, while Tua is not there yet. They say he's also having trouble if his first read is covered. This is his preseason, the verdict is still out. We need more games to find out. Barry Jackson says we should know after 5 games, based on his analysis of recent QBs. But again, no preseason and the injury - let him start the remaining games to see if he grows.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Of course Ryan Fitzpatrick is better than a rookie. Surely nobody ever seriously disputed this, right?
If Miami wants to go with the guy who gives them the best chance to back into a one-and-done playoff appearance, obviously they should go with Fitz. If they want to develop their prized rookie with an eye toward 2021, obviously they should start Tua. Both of those are perfectly reasonable approaches. But let's not insult one another by suggesting that Tua is actually a better QB than Fitz at this particular moment in their careers.
If Miami wants to go with the guy who gives them the best chance to back into a one-and-done playoff appearance, obviously they should go with Fitz. If they want to develop their prized rookie with an eye toward 2021, obviously they should start Tua. Both of those are perfectly reasonable approaches. But let's not insult one another by suggesting that Tua is actually a better QB than Fitz at this particular moment in their careers.
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
The Broncos gave the Dolphins an ### whooping yesterday.
Dolphins had nothing on offense or defense to answer what the Broncos were doing.
Tua made 1 good throw on his TD pass and that was it imo.
Learn from it rookie and move on - that is the only good thing that can come out of yesterdays' debacle.
Dolphins had nothing on offense or defense to answer what the Broncos were doing.
Tua made 1 good throw on his TD pass and that was it imo.
Learn from it rookie and move on - that is the only good thing that can come out of yesterdays' debacle.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I was MAD as HELL when Fitz was benched after a HUGE SF 49ers victory no less where we blew them out.
I agree but everyone is so Tua Crazy down here that it's like an avalanche of social media pressure to play him. At this point, even if he bombs, Miami is past the point of no return. The Rookie QB Plan for the 1st 3 Seasons has to be carried out to the very end. Load up at all positions and pay the QB virtually nothing while they learn.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
And if that ball gets in between those 2 defenders in the end zone into Parker's waiting hands(think he could have helped Fitz a bit there) we might not be saying it was a ### whooping.
But I like that you come out today after a loss and ID your POV on the game. Good stuff.
whole-show
Footballguy
He’s been downgraded to doubtful per Josh Tolentino
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Upgrade Parker.
Plus, Tua doubters coming out in full force on twitter. Injury prone, see what Mac Jones is doing with Alabama talent, etc. The verdict is still out on Tua, who had one bad game, two caretaker games and one good game, by my count. And now one game on the sidelines due to a jammed thumb.
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Asslete
Footballguy
chad in Indy
Footballguy
Ray Barboni
Footballguy
chad in Indy
Footballguy
Look at last game against Jets. 3 TDs in first half and Miami only scored one FG in second half.
Ray Barboni
Footballguy
So you’re proving my point lol ... I’m not a Fitz owner - but so happy I get to start Parker this week.
chad in Indy
Footballguy
Don't follow. That was what I meant by cruise control after a lead. Could have been a monster game, but he had less than 10 passing attempts in the second half and zero points. They just were content running the clock and letting the defense win the game.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I think the Jets offense is a little better since those days, hopefully Mims and Perriman keep the jets more viable
Signed, a guy forced to start Fitzmagic
Signed, a guy forced to start Fitzmagic
popeye
Footballguy
Johnny Utah #9
Footballguy
As a Parker owner, not gonna lie, I’m thrilled with this development.
When Fitz eviscerates this defense tomorrow maybe it gives Flores an out to save face and stick with Fitz in the short term due to the Tua injury. If Miami actually wants to seriously make a run here, Tua is simply not ready. They already dropped an entirely winnable game in Denver as a result of the QB switch. Tua appears to have some talent but he’s too raw. No shame in letting the Fitzmagic ride play out one last time and make a run at the playoffs.
When Fitz eviscerates this defense tomorrow maybe it gives Flores an out to save face and stick with Fitz in the short term due to the Tua injury. If Miami actually wants to seriously make a run here, Tua is simply not ready. They already dropped an entirely winnable game in Denver as a result of the QB switch. Tua appears to have some talent but he’s too raw. No shame in letting the Fitzmagic ride play out one last time and make a run at the playoffs.
trader jake
Footballguy
Will Tua be active? If he's listed as the #2 QB I wouldn't be surprised if he still sees game action.
There's a possibility of a multi-week injury due to swelling and weakness.
What if Fitzpatrick does his magic the next 2 weeks vs the Jets and Bengals. Then it's the Chiefs in Miami. Lots of possibilities.
https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1333067132893097988
Johnny Utah #9
Footballguy
I get that Dolphins management wants to see what they have in Tua and if they need to invest further draft capital in a QB this year. It makes sense from a management perspective. But this decision to go back to Tua is being made at the expense of a playoff run. No one can watch these 2 QBs play and make the argument that Tua gives the team a better chance to win at this point.
I don’t know how Flores can sell this to his players as a winning move. It has to be coming from management. I hope for Flores’ sake he doesn’t lose the locker room over this decision.
I don’t know how Flores can sell this to his players as a winning move. It has to be coming from management. I hope for Flores’ sake he doesn’t lose the locker room over this decision.
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I feel the same way, but I only watched one full game of Tua. I was talking with a friend of mine that's a huge dolphins fan and he said he wants to see Tua. Not convinced that even if they make it they will make a deep run. Either way he has faith in Flores to gauge the locker room and make the right call. This will definitely be one of the interesting storylines to follow.
GreenNGold
Footballguy
It is better for both Miami's chances this season, and Tua's long-term development, if Fitz starts the rest of the year. However, Miami's management seems to be set on sabotaging both.
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
Upset Fitzpatrick fantasy owners?
Fitzpatrick was horrible last week - missed open receivers all day.
The #5 pick in the draft should be starting. Think most Dolphin fans can agree this season & playoff run are gravy as they continue to build the team around Tua. The sooner the Dolphins figure out what they have in Tua the better.
Starting him now during this stretch run vs other playoff teams will only help his development.
Rather lose now with Tua learning the ropes and gaining experience then watching Fitzpatrick lead us to the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round. Just one Dolphins fan take on this.
Fitzpatrick was horrible last week - missed open receivers all day.
Playoff run with a first round exit? They not beating KC or PITT in the playoffs this year.
Week 9 @ ARI where the Dolphins won 34-31 - Fitzpatrick doesn’t win that game for the Dolphins imo. Tua did. And I think the coaching staff can make the argument that Tua gives them a better chance to win by watching both practice with the team every day - we don’t see that.
The #5 pick in the draft should be starting. Think most Dolphin fans can agree this season & playoff run are gravy as they continue to build the team around Tua. The sooner the Dolphins figure out what they have in Tua the better.
Starting him now during this stretch run vs other playoff teams will only help his development.
Rather lose now with Tua learning the ropes and gaining experience then watching Fitzpatrick lead us to the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round. Just one Dolphins fan take on this.
I'd start Tua versus the Bengals to give him more playing time. He should be able to beat them. Then start him versus Mahomes and the Chiefs the following week, but with a short leash. I need to see more of Tua before entering the 2021 draft. He's shown accuracy on passes, but I'm not convinced yet about his pocket presence or decision making under pressure, which are hard to evaluate in practice.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
I agree, Fitz is probably the better answer to try and get that #7 seed and sneak in to the playoffs but honestly I feel our record is the same with Fitz starting those other games. Maybe we win in Denver but we almost assuredly lose in Arizona. I have no doubt that last drive Fitz throws an INT and no way he makes that run for the first down..
Johnny Utah #9
Footballguy
So Fitz couldn’t have won that Cards game? Based on what? I think he would have done just fine considering that the QB who had 80 yards passing going into the 4th quarter versus the Broncos was able to pull it off. Outside of the Arizona game, the Phins were winning despite Tua, not because of him.
You are admittedly favoring roster management and punting the season over making the playoffs. Which is fine. My point is this is going to be a tough sell for Flores to make to his players and could lose the locker room. And I wouldn’t be so quick to assume the Dolphins would get massacred in the playoffs if they made it. Playoff football is different and teams with a strong defense can make some noise. I would think most Dolphin fans would at least like to see how it plays out.
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=Smackdown=
Footballguy
Tua won that game for the Dolphins in the 4th quarter, and imo I don't think Fitz would have.
After 3 years of Gase, and before that 4 years of Philbin - most fans of the team are loving what Flores has done in the 2 short years he's been there and the direction the team is headed.
Players love the coach - at least that's what I've seen from pretty much every player interviewed in the last 2 years. I think he has zero shot of "losing the locker room" as you stated. And I'm speaking strictly as a fan of the team, with no fantasy angle at all. Coach Flo has earned the right to call the shots.
I now look forward to watching Tua time and the Dolphins every Sunday - been a long time since I could say that.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I can remember years where not a single Miami Dolphin or any mention of the team is in the 1st 3 pages of the Shark Pool, now every time I open it I am hit with Phins, Tua, Fitz, Parker, Gaskin, Ahmed, Preston Williams, Mike Gesicki, the Miami Defense(17 games and counting Int/FF) and it's a little shocking to see it, so is being 7-4 right now.
Should Tua be starting?
No!
What else is there to discuss? All jokes aside, which ever QB Miami starts, the other should be ready to enter the game at any moment. I think maybe some weeks they ought to both get a few drives and see what happens. Fitz doesn't need to warm up, he just comes in and fires. Miami has the best back up QB in the NFL right now and they should use it to their advantage.
Should Tua be starting?
No!
What else is there to discuss? All jokes aside, which ever QB Miami starts, the other should be ready to enter the game at any moment. I think maybe some weeks they ought to both get a few drives and see what happens. Fitz doesn't need to warm up, he just comes in and fires. Miami has the best back up QB in the NFL right now and they should use it to their advantage.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Full MOP Rage post coming "For fantasy purposes, Fitzpatrick is the better quarterback but the Dolphins reasonably want to see what they have with their No. 5 overall selection."
-Miami Herald...
Listen, you know how MOP hates to be the bearer of bad Miami news
. but they make it sound as if Miami can send back the chicken and get a fresh burger off the grill in the back. The Trevor Lawrence sweepstakes is OVER, it's a 2 horse race right now for futility. You had a chance to perhaps get Joe Burrow but decided to go 5-4 down the stretch and almost ended up having to select Justin Herbert....hmmmmmYou whiff on Burrow(He's great, ACL not his fault and maybe we could have protected him) you pass on Herbert who looks sensational and you cannot get to Trevor...there's only so many great QBs in any 1-2 year stretch coming out of college football. Miami made their selection and there is no going back until at least 2022 so stop saying that Miami needs to see what they've got...it's called practice and it happens daily and they know exactly what they have and so do the other 51 guys on that roster. Please stop writing this, it's just hot air to fill up columns.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
This is not Dynastly Fantasy Football. In the NFL you push when you have a team good enough to make the playoffs. Playing Tua is a slap in the face to a team working hard trying to win. Telling them, "Hey, even tho we have a pretty good team, we are going with probably 2nd best guy. Please keep working hard so he can get better..." This is not a good message from a coach trying to establish positive culture.=Smackdown= said:
If Flores is worried about their Texan's pick, whether Tua's good or not, just take another quarterback. Pretty simple. More teams should be doing this.
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
It's a bogus argument anyway. There's no way to know for sure whether Tua's good or bad off 10 games. They should draft a quarterback if they are worried about him.Ministry of Pain said:
"For fantasy purposes, Fitzpatrick is the better quarterback but the Dolphins reasonably want to see what they have with their No. 5 overall selection."
-Miami Herald...
Listen, you know how MOP hates to be the bearer of bad Miami news
You whiff on Burrow(He's great, ACL not his fault and maybe we could have protected him) you pass on Herbert who looks sensational and you cannot get to Trevor...there's only so many great QBs in any 1-2 year stretch coming out of college football. Miami made their selection and there is no going back until at least 2022 so stop saying that Miami needs to see what they've got...it's called practice and it happens daily and they know exactly what they have and so do the other 51 guys on that roster. Please stop writing this, it's just hot air to fill up columns.
There's no reason for Flores to kick his team in the nuts to see a few more games from the rookie. No reason at all. If I was a player on the team I would take issue with playing Tua. ####, what am I busting my ### for, so Tua can gain some experience losing us games? gtfo.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I say this to you because there is no Dolphin fan that would ever think for one second that Brian Flores can lose a locker room.Johnny Utah #9 said:
-When Kenny Stills was trying to shame the owner Stephen Ross thru social media, Flores opens with hip hop songs blaring aimed directly at Kenny Stills, 2 weeks later he shipped his ### to Houston as part of a package to fleece them for their 1st and 2nd Round picks two years in a row. It was almost Belichick like.
-When Minkah Fitzpatrick started making noise and even though he had potential ALL Pro written all over him, Flores moved his outspoken mouth as fast as he could for as much as he could get. Maybe looking back it wasn't quite as fair market value as some would have thought but getting a 1st round pick from a team that was IIRC 0-3 at that moment in time, it was aa pretty amazing move.
Everything since Flores arrived has felt different down here in Miami. After stripping the walls bare and going 0-7, he is now 12-8 since then and knocking on the playoff door.
-In my best Vader Voice, "Don't choke on your Parker love"
Flores won't lose the locker room, he hand picked most of these guys and brought many with him from New England, he was the only coach in 2019 to get all 5 years guaranteed when he took the job here, again his leadership is unquestioned right now.
Johnny Utah #9
Footballguy
Players also love Fitz. It’s obvious just watching the players interact with him. And look at what guys like Gesicki say about him (wanting to play his entire career with him).=Smackdown= said:
I like Flores and have been impressed with him as a coach so far. He seems like the first former Pats assistant that has worked out as a talented head coach. But players want to win. These guys are risking their bodies going out there every Sunday. Flores pitching to these guys that Tua gives the team a better chance to win, or even worse, they need to play Tua to improve their chances next season, is going to be an extremely tough sell. I find it hard to believe there wouldn’t be any blowback from that decision.
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
Johnny Utah #9
Footballguy
Two things make this a bad comparison. First off, Fitz is the better player than Tyrod. Secondly, Herbert showed right away he was much more pro ready than Tua.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
It's like the media didn't see the game, who can blame them vs the Jets? I almost fell asleep along the way and commented in the game thread that Miami was letting the Jets hang around, it was 13-3, think Gase went for it when he could have kicked a FG, cut it to 13-6 going into the 4th Q. The offense was completely stagnant for most of the day.=Smackdown= said:
Agree completely with you that he missed guys, Parker was reaching for balls a lot and yet when he was throwing and hitting Parker in stride, those moments look better than what we've really see of Tua...what we like so far is what we saw in Arizona and specifically when they were down 31-24 after getting pummeled by Murray in the 3rd Q, that escape he does in the Redzone was something we've never seen here. Does that make him a great NFL QB or better than Fitz overall right now? Not so sure of the answer here but I lean in Fitz direction right now.
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Exactly. I'm not sure of the PFF grade, but by the eye test, Fitzpatrick has been playing great the last 16 or so games. He gets rid of the ball quickly, is accurate, avoids the rush, and makes gutsy runs for 1st downs. And per a Barry Jackson article, Gesicki and Parker are among the worst 5 for separation in the league. Fitzpatrick throws them open. Tua is used to Alabama-open WRs. But I need to see more of Tua before the 2021 draft, especially while under pressure.
Johnny Utah #9
Footballguy
MOP, since you’re a die hard Phins fan, I know you have a great feel for how Flores is perceived there, both by team and fans.I say this to you because there is no Dolphin fan that would ever think for one second that Brian Flores can lose a locker room.
-When Kenny Stills was trying to shame the owner Stephen Ross thru social media, Flores opens with hip hop songs blaring aimed directly at Kenny Stills, 2 weeks later he shipped his ### to Houston as part of a package to fleece them for their 1st and 2nd Round picks two years in a row. It was almost Belichick like.
-When Minkah Fitzpatrick started making noise and even though he had potential ALL Pro written all over him, Flores moved his outspoken mouth as fast as he could for as much as he could get. Maybe looking back it wasn't quite as fair market value as some would have thought but getting a 1st round pick from a team that was IIRC 0-3 at that moment in time, it was aa pretty amazing move.
Everything since Flores arrived has felt different down here in Miami. After stripping the walls bare and going 0-7, he is now 12-8 since then and knocking on the playoff door.
-In my best Vader Voice, "Don't choke on your Parker love"
Flores won't lose the locker room, he hand picked most of these guys and brought many with him from New England, he was the only coach in 2019 to get all 5 years guaranteed when he took the job here, again his leadership is unquestioned right now.
Those examples you cited above are good ones showing support for Flores. But those were ultimately roster moves of disgruntled players. Getting rid of players like that helped build the culture that Flores was trying to instill. But this is something entirely different. The team is not shipping off a malcontent. Flores would have to sell his players on either the idea that Tua gives them a better chance to win now, or that they will be better off in the future going with Tua (at the expense of this season). That would be a tough sell for any head coach, no matter how beloved they might be.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
The Fitz love stems from the rest of the team being pretty good. I won't put you to sleep with stats but like our starting CB Duo Jones/Howard(All-Pro year) have been pretty awesome when you factor in not a great pass rush so they gotta cover and hold down WRs even longer. Our LBs are pretty good and are the backbone of our 3-4, Ogbah would be our 1 Outstanding DL at the moment. The OL is playing well enough that even a below avg RB which Gaskin is and so is Ahmed, they both looked alright behind the OL. Gesicki and Parker have talent and Fitz seems to bring out the best in the Tua, I mean 2 of them.
In a nutshell he's good enough to get Miami into the Playoffs and so that means we can add more in the off season and make everything minus the QB position pretty tight which should mean success for even Micky Mouse running this offense. We don't care if it's Fitz or Tua or someone else but we're good enough as is right now to make some noise, many of us want to get that playoff experience under our belts in 2020...you got a 3 Year Rookie Playbook and we have to follow the path that other teams have found success previously on rookie contract QBs like Wilson and Mahomes as examples...is Tua either of those guys? Not likely but you don't have to be. Goff took the Rams before they had to pony up. The Chargers are on the same timeline, Herbert doesn't have to be extended or cannot be extended for another 2 full seasons giving them time to load up on guys they normally could not bring in as free agents.
Once the QB makes $30M+ you have to completely restructure things or make sacrifices. The clock is ticking in Miami, Cincinnati(uh huh) and Los Angeles for the Chargers right now. Year 2 is about to begin, you wouldn't want to be missing major pieces at this point, you should be close to putting it all together and making a run by Year 2 or looking close to it. Year 3 has to be a deep run if not the Super Bowl, otherwise you failed.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
You don't seem to understand, disgruntled players have been running this place since Dumbo took over as the owner a decade ago or more. Anyone could get anything they wanted from Miami, go back and listen to Suh's press conference when he was signed after leaving Detroit, he laughed at how much we overpaid him and was upfront about why he came here.
These guys will run thru a brick wall right now for Flores and if they won't he wouldn't keep them around for long. This team has been overhauled, there were guys I didn't even know were gone until we were a few weeks into the season.
There's no tough sell here, you're talking about something that isn't actively happening. Nobody on that team is raising a stir, wouldn't surprise me if Fitz is the starting QB but Flores plays it like he might play Tua all week in the media. Why let the other team game plan for just 1 guy?
I'm asking you to give Flores some credit and the benefit of the doubt, if anyone's earned it from recent hires in the last year or two, I think he has.
Media was clamoring for Tua in Week 2-3 and Flores held them off for weeks and then suddenly thought it was time on his terms, not the fans or the media and this won't change on his next decision IMHO. He does what he wants when he wants how he wants and he doesn't give a damn about how anyone outside that locker room thinks. You can't say that about most of the previous coaches here going back quite a ways. This isn't the same old Phins, there's a new Sheriff in town and his name is Flores. This is a coach that is not afraid to make changes, he has fired assistant coaches as training camps were going and those are the staples of really strong Head Coaches like John Harbaugh in Baltimore who is a great leader and guys go to bat for him. Tomlin in Pittsburgh. Some day soon I think you're going to hear Flores mentioned with some of these other great leaders around the NFL.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I tell ya...Nobody does dogmatism like MOP! 
Johnny Utah #9
Footballguy
As I stated earlier, I’ve been impressed with Flores so far and think he’s well on his way to being regarded as one of the better coaches in the league (if he’s not there already). And believe me, as a suffering Skins fan, I know all about how a toxic team culture can tear down a once proud franchise.
I still contend though that this is a comparing apples to oranges situation here. Ridding the team of malcontents to improve team culture is a lot different than this QB decision. I wouldn’t expect any dissension to get out of the locker room. Like you said, Flores runs a tight ship. But seeing how beloved Fitz is in that locker room (Gesicki’s comments, etc.), combined with the comments from Fitz of shock when the move was announced in the first place (his comments regarding shock at the decision, etc.), I wouldn’t be surprised if a decision to go back to Tua raises some eyebrows among the players. These guys want to win first and foremost. And in the NFL, if you see a window of opportunity, you best go through it, since you never know when it might slam shut.
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