Huh? The novelization of the movie, that is basically ok’d by Kennedy, the studio, and is essentially a Disney-verified explanation of the events that happened in the movie is quite a different thing than what I assume you’re referring to, the fan-fiction crap from 25 years ago that you can’t seem to let go.Lol. "Read the book to find the real reason even though I think the books suck ### but not this book because I like what happens."
Man you really hate Lucas Star Wars for some reason. If it wasn't for those novels keeping the fandom alive from the late 80's into the 90's, Lucas has said he might never have decided to write the Prequels. Lucas enjoyed the EU and where the story progressed too. He made executive decisions on it. Some good, some bad. The books continued all the way up until Disney got hold of things and sold incredibly well.Huh? The novelization of the movie, that is basically ok’d by Kennedy, the studio, and is essentially a Disney-verified explanation of the events that happened in the movie is quite a different thing than what I assume you’re referring to, the fan-fiction crap from 25 years ago that you can’t seem to let go.
I think I remember hearing that it was supposed to be a 9 part series from the very beginning, but I could be mistaken. I was young when I heard it.Man you really hate Lucas Star Wars for some reason. If it wasn't for those novels keeping the fandom alive from the late 80's into the 90's, Lucas has said he might never have decided to write the Prequels. Lucas enjoyed the EU and where the story progressed too. He made executive decisions on it. Some good, some bad. The books continued all the way up until Disney got hold of things and sold incredibly well.
So if the novels sanctioned by Lucas and written by actual, competent writers is fanfiction, then what are the half assed, made up as we go plots of these 3 movies considered? Grade school fiction essays?
Yep, so he can basically never die. How is this time any different from last time?He did die. He even said it. He came back from the dead. Something he hinted at having the power to do in episode 3. He referenced that line in 9, and his ability to have survived episode 6 has long been speculated about.
As to the reasons for why this death at the hands of all the Jedi is probably final, I suppose the novelization will fully flesh that out...or not........
Isn't this an example of "bad writing " that he said he didn't see a specific criticism for?Lol. "Read the book to find the real reason even though I think the books suck ### but not this book because I like what happens."
Gotta wait for episode 12Yep, so he can basically never die. How is this time any different from last time?
If I had to guess, it would be because his other deaths were at the hands of others, and this one was because his own power was reflected back at him. I remember him telling Anakin the story of Darth Plagueis, who could raise others from the dead but not himself. Maybe this is the same thing?Yep, so he can basically never die. How is this time any different from last time?
So you don't think there is some onus on the people doing the movies to flesh this out during the movies? We have to read the novelization to understand WTF was going on with some of these plot points?Huh? The novelization of the movie, that is basically ok’d by Kennedy, the studio, and is essentially a Disney-verified explanation of the events that happened in the movie is quite a different thing than what I assume you’re referring to, the fan-fiction crap from 25 years ago that you can’t seem to let go.
This is basically my point. Supposedly this is the end of this story and the end of these characters.If I had to guesrs, it would be because his other deaths were at the hands of others, and this one was because his own power was reflected back at him. I remember him telling Anakin the story of Dath Plagueis, who could raise others from the dead but not himself. Maybe this is the same thing?
If it is, that's fine by me. There's a literal galaxy they could explore instead if dealing with 3+ generations of family squabbling.This is basically my point. Supposedly this is the end of this story and the end of these characters.
I think in the context of any review from the time, these were "serious" critics who had risen through the French New Wave into the Auteur movement of the 70's and that was their taste and aesthetic. I don't know this to be fact but I just remember this from the time, I think why Siskel and Ebert took off was they were able to review and digest movies as they were intended for a given audience and not reward or penalize everything for how close it got to be Goddard. Its hard to see Pauline Kael enjoying any comedies outside of Woody Allen in my mind, but I may be wrong and I should take more time to read back through her reviews. But to my recollection Siskel and Ebert could at least somewhat evaluate a popcorn movie on popcorn merits.It’s interesting to read some reviews from 1983. If there was a RT then, I’d love to know what the score would have been. I’d predict quite low.
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/film/052583jedi.html
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/star-wars-return-jedi-1983-752678
So true.I had a blast at this movie yesterday- loved it. Can’t deny the cheese factor was over the top though, as one would expect. I was laughing more or less throughout the entire second half of the movie. Almost every one of Adam Driver’s scenes was comical, and it became obvious really nothing that happens in the story is final for purposes of the movie. Any negative event can easily be reversed a few minutes later through some contrivance or another. Rey declaring herself a Skywalker with no basis for it whatsoever was a perfect ending.
It wasn’t fan fiction. They were all sanctioned and blessed by LucasHuh? The novelization of the movie, that is basically ok’d by Kennedy, the studio, and is essentially a Disney-verified explanation of the events that happened in the movie is quite a different thing than what I assume you’re referring to, the fan-fiction crap from 25 years ago that you can’t seem to let go.
I remember hearing that too. There is a Lucas interview somewhere where he mentions the three trilogies. Heck, may even be apart of the box set of the original trilogies that has it....I just dont have a vcr to play them to find outI think I remember hearing that it was supposed to be a 9 part series from the very beginning, but I could be mistaken. I was young when I heard it.
i agree with whoever in here posted that her eyes turning red and announcing "Palpatine" would've been a better ending.I had a blast at this movie yesterday- loved it. Can’t deny the cheese factor was over the top though, as one would expect. I was laughing more or less throughout the entire second half of the movie. Almost every one of Adam Driver’s scenes was comical, and it became obvious really nothing that happens in the story is final for purposes of the movie. Any negative event can easily be reversed a few minutes later through some contrivance or another. Rey declaring herself a Skywalker with no basis for it whatsoever was a perfect ending.
Good read in theory.I think this is a excellent summary of my thoughts as well. I just preferred that Johnson's vision would have been carried through RoS.
Linky
How about not even say anything - just cut to her firing up a red lightsaber after burying Leia and Luke's?i agree with whoever in here posted that her eyes turning red and announcing "Palpatine" would've been a better ending.
Yeah. It was fine to have the first movie just be a reset with similar plot/different characters. Ending on that note is just bad.Good read in theory.
I felt the same conflict when I saw the movie. The last movie really tried to push the story forward and shed some of the ties to the original. There is even the scene where Kylo is telling the audience through a conversation with Rey to let go of the ties to the past.
Then this movie did a 180 of that idea. Tried to embrace all the ties to the original and play to the fan boy. The Harrison Ford call back was such a play - not needed.
As I walked out of the movie, I said to my son "For a trilogy trying to move the story forward, they really embraced all the old mythology" - in my mind contrasting the prior movie with this one.
As a movie about a 7 ouot of 10 score - as the end of the new trilogy about a 5.
Rey chugging a glass of blue milk after the old lady blabbed and introduced herself like James Bond ftwHow about not even say anything - just cut to her firing up a red lightsaber after burying Leia and Luke's?
Rey chugging a glass of blue milk after the old lady blabbed and introduced herself like James Bond ftw
I was the same way, but I blamed the $5 margaritasI had a blast at this movie yesterday- loved it. Can’t deny the cheese factor was over the top though, as one would expect. I was laughing more or less throughout the entire second half of the movie. Almost every one of Adam Driver’s scenes was comical, and it became obvious really nothing that happens in the story is final for purposes of the movie. Any negative event can easily be reversed a few minutes later through some contrivance or another. Rey declaring herself a Skywalker with no basis for it whatsoever was a perfect ending.
We've been through this Insein. I don't consider the new stuff to be poorly written. I think they have been done incredibly well. I've also shown you way too many examples of how Lucas made it up as he went. I love the 3 Original Star Wars movies. To me, the prequels are cute films with major flaws. I love Obi-Won, I love some scenes, and by and large, Revenge of the Sith was a great movie. But Lucas made it up as he went all the time.Man you really hate Lucas Star Wars for some reason. If it wasn't for those novels keeping the fandom alive from the late 80's into the 90's, Lucas has said he might never have decided to write the Prequels. Lucas enjoyed the EU and where the story progressed too. He made executive decisions on it. Some good, some bad. The books continued all the way up until Disney got hold of things and sold incredibly well.
So if the novels sanctioned by Lucas and written by actual, competent writers is fanfiction, then what are the half assed, made up as we go plots of these 3 movies considered? Grade school fiction essays?
There were all sorts of rumors pre-internet. There was no master plan from the beginning. Lucas had rough sketches and broad outlines, but he made a ton of changes, even in the original 3 movies themselves. Disney decided not to follow the writings of Timothy Zahn for their vision of the future, and by and large, it's worked out incredibly well for them, and for most fans.I think I remember hearing that it was supposed to be a 9 part series from the very beginning, but I could be mistaken. I was young when I heard it.
Whether he's dead forever isn't a plot point that will likely get resolved. I think it's safe to assume from the movie that he's dead. Perhaps the novelization will provide extra details. Or perhaps they will leave it open-ended. I have no idea. I think a 5-year old could understand what was going on at the end, so I'm not seeing the big deal here.So you don't think there is some onus on the people doing the movies to flesh this out during the movies? We have to read the novelization to understand WTF was going on with some of these plot points?
Mandalorian is the way of the future, for sure.just got back.
Have to say, not a huge fan of this Rey trilogy, but that was a nice way to wrap it up.
Now they need more stuff like Rogue One and Mandalorian.
I agree with a good bit of what you are saying but I am not sure about the moving on from this timeline part. I don't have a single thought on where the story can go. Doesn't every story pretty much have to lead back to the force and then ultimately to the internal conflict of good and evil? And if you stray too far from the force and the characters now, why is it even Star Wars anymore.Mandalorian is the way of the future, for sure.
The Rey trilogy was awesome imo, but I can see why many didn't like it. It most obviously is full of parallels to the original trilogy and was designed to make a ton of money, expand the universe, introduce new characters that MODERN kids can relate to, and to be honest, probably to repay the heavy investment Disney spent on this franchise.
I just happened to have loved it and loved the characters. But I'm so ready to move on from this timeline and this storyline as too many fans (old and new) are too emotionally tied to it. Moving onto new stories and new adventures will be great for Star Wars as a whole.
That was my point. To clarify, I don't think this story is going to go anywhere else. I sure hope not. I don't want a "part 10".I agree with a good bit of what you are saying but I am not sure about the moving on from this timeline part. I don't have a single thought on where the story can go. Doesn't every story pretty much have to lead back to the force and then ultimately to the internal conflict of good and evil? And if you stray too far from the force and the characters now, why is it even Star Wars anymore.
IMO, they should have taken the time to set up the future direction in this latest movie. I think Abrams wimped out.
I think Po could get his own movie, as he is the han solo in this series. I have no real interest in Finn or Rey anymore.That was my point. To clarify, I don't think this story is going to go anywhere else. I sure hope not. I don't want a "part 10".
The idea is to create new stories, new characters, new people outside of this one storyline. Different times, different parts of the universe, etc.
I think the force will always be a part of it, but as the Mandalorian shows, it doesn't have to be a massive thing. The idea is to bring really good directors and writers into the series and create great stories set inside this universe.
Just got back from watching it. These are my thoughts about the movie as well.I thought it was a fun movie, not a great one.
An uncreative (predictable), repetitive money grab... but I had fun.
Yes but he combined some of the third trilogy into the ending of Jedi.I remember hearing that too. There is a Lucas interview somewhere where he mentions the three trilogies. Heck, may even be apart of the box set of the original trilogies that has it....I just dont have a vcr to play them to find out
I mean you can like the new movies and have fun with them, but there is no way you can consider them written well. They are literally using TLJ as an example of bad screenwriting at Columbia for future film makers.We've been through this Insein. I don't consider the new stuff to be poorly written. I think they have been done incredibly well. I've also shown you way too many examples of how Lucas made it up as he went. I love the 3 Original Star Wars movies. To me, the prequels are cute films with major flaws. I love Obi-Won, I love some scenes, and by and large, Revenge of the Sith was a great movie. But Lucas made it up as he went all the time.
The EU was a convoluted mess. Disney cleaned it up and has gone a different way, which is GREAT for the franchise as a whole. Due to that, we have amazing TV shows, 3 new movies, tons of books for the book nerds, cartoons, etc. The future is very bright, and it's all because of Disney. My advice to you is to forget the fan fiction you read 20 years ago and enjoy the new stuff. Or be grumpy, it's your choice. Either way I honestly don't care and I don't want to pollute this thread anymore arguing with you because we clearly see things differently.
“The people who screwed up Luke Skywalker were motivated by personal pathologies ranging from literal Daddy issues to an ideological need to humiliate “straight white men.” None of it came from a desire for good storytelling or commercial success.”I mean you can like the new movies and have fun with them, but there is no way you can consider them written well. They are literally using TLJ as an example of bad screenwriting at Columbia for future film makers.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/boundingintocomics.com/2019/12/03/bionic-woman-producer-kamran-pasha-uses-star-wars-the-last-jedi-to-teach-about-bad-screenwriting/amp/
You didn't answer my question before: do you have different criteria for movies vs. books? What would bad writing for a movie look like for you?We've been through this Insein. I don't consider the new stuff to be poorly written. I think they have been done incredibly well. I've also shown you way too many examples of how Lucas made it up as he went. I love the 3 Original Star Wars movies. To me, the prequels are cute films with major flaws. I love Obi-Won, I love some scenes, and by and large, Revenge of the Sith was a great movie. But Lucas made it up as he went all the time.
The EU was a convoluted mess. Disney cleaned it up and has gone a different way, which is GREAT for the franchise as a whole. Due to that, we have amazing TV shows, 3 new movies, tons of books for the book nerds, cartoons, etc. The future is very bright, and it's all because of Disney. My advice to you is to forget the fan fiction you read 20 years ago and enjoy the new stuff. Or be grumpy, it's your choice. Either way I honestly don't care and I don't want to pollute this thread anymore arguing with you because we clearly see things differently.
Should also be noted that this isn't some alt right straight white male. This is a very left leaning, director that has analyzed this from a film making perspective on what not to do if you wish to make a successful movie.“The people who screwed up Luke Skywalker were motivated by personal pathologies ranging from literal Daddy issues to an ideological need to humiliate “straight white men.” None of it came from a desire for good storytelling or commercial success.”
— definitely a person I wouldn’t look to be quoting to make my point
He sure doesn’t sound like it from that quote but I’ll take yer word for it.Should also be noted that this isn't some alt right straight white male. This is a very left leaning, director that has analyzed this from a film making perspective on what not to do if you wish to make a successful movie.
I promise you he's not an alt-right, straight white male.He sure doesn’t sound like it from that quote but I’ll take yer word for it.
These days it needs to be stated or else it's used as a straw man to disregard someone's argument. Shouldn't be that way but welcome to 2019.Was does political affiliation have to do with ability to dissect screenwriting?
Nope. He’s the one who mentioned daddy issues and the made-up need for the writers of Jedi to humiliate straight white men. Once you start throwing that crap out there it’s fair game to question where he’s approaching this from.These days it needs to be stated or else it's used as a straw man to disregard someone's argument. Shouldn't be that way but welcome to 2019.