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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better


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I'm a lurker, as evidenced by my comically low post count relative to the duration of my membership, but I just don't understand why so many of you make this so difficult.  I've had one person on igno

I think this subforum would function more smoothly if everybody put everybody else on ignore.

@Joe Bryant I slept on this and thought about how you are approaching this. A couple of thoughts. - You're taking ownership for other people's actions. I think that's being unfair to yourself. Yo

1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

It is always the few unnamed 'trolls' who are the problem.  It is not the 30-40 percent of people who those 'trolls' represent.  The mob is completely tone deaf.  Carry on.  

I don’t really think trolls represent anyone but themselves. 

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

It is always the few unnamed 'trolls' who are the problem.  It is not the 30-40 percent of people who those 'trolls' represent.  The mob is completely tone deaf.  Carry on.  

I truly don’t understand why, if this place is a cesspool and a mob against you personally, you want to be here. It begins to feel like you just want to try to get it shut down.  

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2 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I don't know why they wouldn't believe you.

The moderators usually copy and paste the issue when they suspend someone.

You responded to a poster with a link about how people were killed traveling 

https://nypost.com/2018/08/01/american-couple-killed-in-terror-attack-were-on-dream-trip-around-the-world/

and your comment was:

 

And to add, groots post is exactly what I'm talking about here.

I'm sick of people responding to a poster with a link about people being murdered while traveling and then telling them they should travel more.

And I'm just as sick of the whining that comes later with the same people telling the board they didn't do anything or they were misunderstood and hoping the moderator didn't copy and paste what was actually said. If I'd been the moderator that suspended, it would have been way longer than 2 weeks for something that far out of bounds. 

I'm over it. 

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1 minute ago, Henry Ford said:

I truly don’t understand why, if this place is a cesspool and a mob against you personally, you want to be here. It begins to feel like you just want to try to get it shut down.  

I want to be able to post here without 80 to 90 percent of the posts being personal.   I see it everytime a new poster comes in who likes or is sympathetic towards Trump.  Without fail there will be 6 posters hitting him from every direction about what alias he is and to stop trolling.  

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

I want to be able to post here without 80 to 90 percent of the posts being personal.   I see it everytime a new poster comes in who likes or is sympathetic towards Trump.  Without fail there will be 6 posters hitting him from every direction about what alias he is and to stop trolling.  

Again, you’ve been posting the same set of complaints for, I believe, years now. I understand that from your perspective you don’t like the board. From others’ perspective your posts are one of the problems.
It doesn’t appear that what you want to happen is going to happen. So I’m trying to understand why you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, that’s all.  

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You know it's bad when you're not even sure in which thread to argue about this high school drama stuff anymore :lol:

I posted some decent constructive advice for Joe a page back. Try responding to those types of people offering to help with your frustration instead of policing these individual arguments, and you're on your way to fixing half your problems. 

Edited by John Bender
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@Joe Bryant I slept on this and thought about how you are approaching this. A couple of thoughts.

- You're taking ownership for other people's actions. I think that's being unfair to yourself. You can't be responsible for the entire world. I know you have a vision about how people should treat each other. Closing this thread down won't change those people. It won't even silence them. They will find another board to continue to act the way they are, or even worse. 

- You've created a place where people can discuss sensitive topics like religion and politics where personal attacks are not allowed. It's 10x better than the way other boards treat each other. It comes at a price. Some won't agree with how you handle things. That's okay. As you said, we don't have to agree. If it becomes a personal attack, remove those posters from the board. 

- I can't begin to understand the effort it takes to keep things running smoothly. But, I can understand that anything worth doing is not always easy. I would hope you see the good that comes from posters here furthering their knowledge, developing friendships, and becoming better citizens because of this forum. From reading your posts during my time on this board, I believe you want to make the world a better place for everyone. The question I would want you to ask yourself is, "is the world a better place due to this sub forum?" I believe it is. Shutting it down would be taking the path of least resistance. 

Edited by KCitons
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3 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

And to add, groots post is exactly what I'm talking about here.

I'm sick of people responding to a poster with a link about people being murdered while traveling and then telling them they should travel more.

And I'm just as sick of the whining that comes later with the same people telling the board they didn't do anything or they were misunderstood and hoping the moderator didn't copy and paste what was actually said. If I'd been the moderator that suspended, it would have been way longer than 2 weeks for something that far out of bounds. 

I'm over it. 

I would think it would be pretty easy to narrow this down to certain people and their interactions specifically with certain people. 

Like for me, tanner and henry were frequent recipients of poor behavior on my part. Most of my replies to/from tanner are now just us trying to make friendly jokes and i try to avoid or pull the plug on heated discussions with henry. 

I wasnt warned to that, but i felt it was getting close to moderator interaction. Had i received a message specifically saying "received 4 reported posts of yours today and all were directed at mcjose. They werent suspension worthy on an individual basis, but if the interaction persists we will treat them as a single post and a 21 day suspension will be forthcoming" i would have tried much sooner. 

I realize some people will still whine about this behind the scenes to you, but i really believe it would give people pause regarding discussions with certain people. This would then reduce the number of posts being reported.

I  sure regular posters can start naming in their head regular head butting matches so i dont think this would be too hard to moderate. 

Just a thought. 

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27 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

And to add, groots post is exactly what I'm talking about here.

I'm sick of people responding to a poster with a link about people being murdered while traveling and then telling them they should travel more.

And I'm just as sick of the whining that comes later with the same people telling the board they didn't do anything or they were misunderstood and hoping the moderator didn't copy and paste what was actually said. If I'd been the moderator that suspended, it would have been way longer than 2 weeks for something that far out of bounds. 

I'm over it. 

I asked a page or two back, but is it possible that you have to have permission to post in this subforum? 

If so, ban everyone except for a handful of people like SID, HF, MT, etc so that they can post here.  MT or someone like him can let others in as long as they behave so over time we'd have more posters.  and the people who contribute nothing to the PSF simply aren't allowed to post.  

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20 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Again, you’ve been posting the same set of complaints for, I believe, years now. I understand that from your perspective you don’t like the board. From others’ perspective your posts are one of the problems.
It doesn’t appear that what you want to happen is going to happen. So I’m trying to understand why you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, that’s all.  

Which is a fair and well stated point.  I do enjoy the good discussions which occasionally do happen.  There are a lot of well informed intelligent people here that can open eyes on issues.  But it is frustrating why that 20 percent of great discussion can't become 40 or 50 or 60 percent.  And why don't these intelligent people recognize and acknowledge the poor tactics of personalizing the discussions and stop condoning it because it come from their side.  

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Every time Joe starts a thread begging us to be excellent to one another, we see some posters admitting they haven't been excellent and that they will try to do better.

And, amazingly, in a thread about being excellent to one another, a few posters will not be excellent to others and then defend why they won't be excellent to one another. There are posters who actually don't buy into the idea that we should be excellent to one another. It's astounding that a forum full of adults (I assume) still hold such childish views like "He started it!" or "I'll be nice to him if he's nice to me." There is way too much focus on what others are doing (yeah, I realize I'm doing that here in this post) and not enough focus on one's own actions. This thread is full of thoughts that it's all "their" fault. If "they" would just change, then the forum can be better.

Some posters have a hard time being excellent to others but they are trying. Others don't think they are doing anything wrong and see no reason to change.

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31 minutes ago, jomar said:

I asked a page or two back, but is it possible that you have to have permission to post in this subforum? 

If so, ban everyone except for a handful of people like SID, HF, MT, etc so that they can post here.  MT or someone like him can let others in as long as they behave so over time we'd have more posters.  and the people who contribute nothing to the PSF simply aren't allowed to post.  

Instead of inventing a full time job for a single person just let the individual thread creators decide.  

-keep the social justice warriors out of the Trump thread. 

-keep the Trump apologists out of the nothingburger threads. 

Problem solved. 

Edited by tonydead
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Is stopped posting in this forum some time ago specifically because of the hate/condescending/my opinion is better than yours attitude of many here especially toward anyone that gave even the slightest support for our current POTUS.

I stopped because I allowed my self to get caught up in it and as I said before I left, in the span of a week I have been called names and reciprocated in like, actions that had not occurred to me personally in the years of posting in the FFA/SHP and DSF forums.  Simply put there was nothing good coming from me posting here, that's JMHO.

I continue to read even though I don't post and I'm still amazed by the nastiness I read daily here, it's too bad because it can be a place of good information, but in the long run, as I stated before I stopped posting, I agree with Joe, shut it down, if you want to post about politics go to a political themed message board.

 

Edited by Megla
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34 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Which is a fair and well stated point.  I do enjoy the good discussions which occasionally do happen.  There are a lot of well informed intelligent people here that can open eyes on issues.  But it is frustrating why that 20 percent of great discussion can't become 40 or 50 or 60 percent.  And why don't these intelligent people recognize and acknowledge the poor tactics of personalizing the discussions and stop condoning it because it come from their side.  

I think this is a much better statement of what you're feeling.  If you said this instead of “cesspool” you’d be involved in a lot less drama.  It's pretty hard to argue with this perspective, even if one doesn't agree with it.

Edited by Henry Ford
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1 minute ago, Megla said:

Is stopped posting in this forum some time ago specifically because of the hate/condescending/my opinion is better than yours attitude of many here especially toward anyone that gave even the slightest support for out current POTUS.

I stopped because I allowed my self to get caught up in it and as I said before I left, in the span of a week I have been called names and reciprocated in like, actions that had not occurred to me personally in the years of posting in the FFA/SHP and DSF forums.  Simply put there was nothing good coming from me posting here, that's JMHO.

I continue to read even though I don't post and I'm still amazed by the nastiness I read daily here, it's too bad because it can be a place of good information, but in the long run, as I stated before I stopped posting, I agree with Joe, shut it down, if you want to post about politics go to a political themed message board.

 

Respectfully, if you want to post about the best food, or that your neighbor cut down your tree, or cheese, or Star Wars, or any number of things that are being discussed in the Free For All, then people should go to subject specific boards. Why are we able to discuss those things without hate and condescending attitudes towards each other? That's the crux of the problem. 

 

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9 hours ago, Nipsey said:

Only when we're posting karaoke fantasy football songs.

Hey Joe, that Pat Mahomes song in Random Shots last week you loved...your old friend Nipsey recorded and released a version right here in the forum well before that one. A better version imo. https://clyp.it/fnw0pki4

That was really good :thumbup:   To be honest this is exactly the kind of stuff they are looking for here now. Perfect for the FFA

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Just now, jon_mx said:

It is very much a two-way street which many do not wish to acknowledge.  

Dang.  You quoted right as I was editing.

Quote

I think this is a much better statement of what you're feeling.  If you said this instead of “cesspool” you’d be involved in a lot less drama.  It's pretty hard to argue with this perspective, even if one doesn't agree with it.

 

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

And to add, groots post is exactly what I'm talking about here.

I'm sick of people responding to a poster with a link about people being murdered while traveling and then telling them they should travel more.

And I'm just as sick of the whining that comes later with the same people telling the board they didn't do anything or they were misunderstood and hoping the moderator didn't copy and paste what was actually said. If I'd been the moderator that suspended, it would have been way longer than 2 weeks for something that far out of bounds. 

I'm over it. 

How about the guys who only post in the stock market thread when it is going down?  Like they are giddy.  I said before I don`t have much money in the market as I am just starting out but really don`t want people celebrating when it goes down as it impacts many of us.

Edited by Summer Wheat
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It seems to me like there’s a disconnect here: many of us believe that real source of the problems here are the few trolls that deliberately attempt to disrupt discussion and debate. Because most (though not all) of those trolls tend to be pro-Trump, most of the conservatives and pro-Trump types around here who are NOT trolls are quite defensive of those who are, and instead perceive the main problem as the anti-Trump people being unfair and ganging up on the pro-Trump folks. 

These are two almost completely opposite perspectives on the same problem. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here but unless we can resolve this difference, we’re screwed. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

It seems to me like there’s a disconnect here: many of us believe that real source of the problems here are the few trolls that deliberately attempt to disrupt discussion and debate. Because most (though not all) of those trolls tend to be pro-Trump, most of the conservatives and pro-Trump types around here who are NOT trolls are quite defensive of those who are, and instead perceive the main problem as the anti-Trump people being unfair and ganging up on the pro-Trump folks. 

These are two almost completely opposite perspectives on the same problem. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here but unless we can resolve this difference, we’re screwed. 

The entire problem is pro Trump people.  Got it

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22 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Respectfully, if you want to post about the best food, or that your neighbor cut down your tree, or cheese, or Star Wars, or any number of things that are being discussed in the Free For All, then people should go to subject specific boards. Why are we able to discuss those things without hate and condescending attitudes towards each other? That's the crux of the problem. 

 

Because Trump is not involved in any of those discussions.

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1 minute ago, supermike80 said:

The entire problem is pro Trump people.  Got it

I think Tim try to fairly capture the issue without really taking sides.  What would be nice if there was some acknowledgement that maybe there is too much hostility in here and we can do better. 

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2 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

The entire problem is pro Trump people.  Got it

It's not and the sooner we all realize this the better. You are right to be annoyed at that statement.  And I say this as probably one of the most liberal members here.

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2 minutes ago, Megla said:

Because Trump is not involved in any of those discussions.

That seems to be an easy excuse for people to act less than excellent towards each other. It's the same board, the same keyboard, and the same posters. The only difference is how we choose to act based on the topic. 

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1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

And to add, groots post is exactly what I'm talking about here.

I'm sick of people responding to a poster with a link about people being murdered while traveling and then telling them they should travel more.

And I'm just as sick of the whining that comes later with the same people telling the board they didn't do anything or they were misunderstood and hoping the moderator didn't copy and paste what was actually said. If I'd been the moderator that suspended, it would have been way longer than 2 weeks for something that far out of bounds. 

I'm over it. 

 

@Joe Bryant

I believe there are ways to handle this without shutting the whole thing down, which would actually lesson your burden rather than increase it. 

First, suspend people for complaining about previous suspensions. If you announce that it will kill of the whining very quickly. 

Second, suspend people for wasting time reporting stuff to you. Reporting should be reserved for gross use of language, or seriously rude personal insults (like wishing death on others.) People who waste your time should be punished. 

Third, punish ALL complaints about this forum with suspensions. Simply end all conversation about it. If someone has a legitimate complaint let them send you a PM. They don’t need to voice it here. 

Just some ideas off the top of my head. But I think they might solve a lot of your concerns with little or no effort on your part. 

 

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I don't post frequently, but I lurk here daily.  I think it would be a shame to lose this forum - but it's also a shame that some folks aren't able to discuss topics without targeting others.  And frankly, that is a reflection of where we are as a society.  We need to be better, and has been called out already - debate the issue, not the person.

It's Joe's website - he can do whatever he wants with it.  I just think it is sad that there are so few places on this vast internet that allow for a discussion across political spectrums.  If we want echo chambers, then we would go to the Democratic Underground or Free Republics of the internet.  

I think that even with media frequently choosing one side or another (FOX vs. MSNBC), the benefits of having a forum that is open to everyone's ideas and opinions - and even spirited debate - is exactly what our country needs right now. 

Do I expect Joe and his football website to be the protectors of our democracy?  Of course not.  But we need all the small wins we can get.

Edited by lakerstan
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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:
9 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

The entire problem is pro Trump people.  Got it

Really? That was exactly the opposite of what I was trying to write. 

You were not clear at all in your post, that was why I sent you the private message I did.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

It seems to me like there’s a disconnect here: many of us believe that real source of the problems here are the few trolls that deliberately attempt to disrupt discussion and debate. Because most (though not all) of those trolls tend to be pro-Trump, most of the conservatives and pro-Trump types around here who are NOT trolls are quite defensive of those who are, and instead perceive the main problem as the anti-Trump people being unfair and ganging up on the pro-Trump folks. 

These are two almost completely opposite perspectives on the same problem. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here but unless we can resolve this difference, we’re screwed. 

Perhaps banning the word troll makes sense?  I have been called a troll and a liar by folks in this very thread because I agreed with several media sources left and right that called what the white house released a transcript.  Ironically the folks attacking me were the very defination of trollish behavior.

I don't want to see this place shut down any more than you do.  I will try my best to ignore folks who refuse to try and understand other political views and can't help but attack those who have a different opinion.

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23 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It seems to me like there’s a disconnect here: many of us believe that real source of the problems here are the few trolls that deliberately attempt to disrupt discussion and debate. Because most (though not all) of those trolls tend to be pro-Trump, most of the conservatives and pro-Trump types around here who are NOT trolls are quite defensive of those who are, and instead perceive the main problem as the anti-Trump people being unfair and ganging up on the pro-Trump folks. 

These are two almost completely opposite perspectives on the same problem. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here but unless we can resolve this difference, we’re screwed. 

I said it before.  I don`t like Trump, I did not vote for Trump, but any slight leaning that you might agree with anything he does and it is a full on mob assault on the poster. It has happened to me.   It is basically why I stay in the FFA most of the time.  I really don`t like the direction on either party right now but you have to take a side here.  For or against as there is no middle ground.  If I don`t like something Cortez says I am pro-Trump.  That is insane.  I assume the Cortez thread is a prime example of what JB wants to get rid of.

Plus the endless rebutters who will never stop making their points and basically outlasts and wears down any opposition view.

Edited by Da Guru
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2 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:
15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It seems to me like there’s a disconnect here: many of us believe that real source of the problems here are the few trolls that deliberately attempt to disrupt discussion and debate. Because most (though not all) of those trolls tend to be pro-Trump, most of the conservatives and pro-Trump types around here who are NOT trolls are quite defensive of those who are, and instead perceive the main problem as the anti-Trump people being unfair and ganging up on the pro-Trump folks. 

These are two almost completely opposite perspectives on the same problem. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here but unless we can resolve this difference, we’re screwed. 

Perhaps banning the word troll makes sense?  I have been called a troll and a liar by folks in this very thread because I agreed with several media sources left and right that called what the white house released a transcript.  Ironically the folks attacking me were the very defination of trollish behavior.

I don't want to see this place shut down any more than you do.  I will try my best to ignore folks who refuse to try and understand other political views and can't help but attack those who have a different opinion.

I think this is a spot on point.  That word is probably worse than any of the other banned words on this forum.

Edited by toshiba
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9 minutes ago, John Bender said:

You could try being the one to change first if you're so passionate about it. Lead by example and all that stuff. Just sayin'

I hear you.  But until there is some acknowledgement from the anti-Trump side that they are part of the problem (and being representing 87 percent of the PSF according to MT) and probably the largest part of the problem, I don't see how changing the behavior of a small minority segment is really going to improve things.  

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13 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

There are plenty of posters who would be fair. There are no posters who would be perceived as fair by the people who bear the brunt of their moderation.

The current moderation team is accused of being unfair. I think volunteer mods would be a good idea

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

I hear you.  But until there is some acknowledgement from the anti-Trump side that they are part of the problem (and being representing 87 percent of the PSF according to MT) and probably the largest part of the problem, I don't see how changing the behavior of a small minority segment is really going to improve things.  

"Be the change you wish to see in the world or something." - John Stamos

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27 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It seems to me like there’s a disconnect here: many of us believe that real source of the problems here are the few trolls that deliberately attempt to disrupt discussion and debate. Because most (though not all) of those trolls tend to be pro-Trump, most of the conservatives and pro-Trump types around here who are NOT trolls are quite defensive of those who are, and instead perceive the main problem as the anti-Trump people being unfair and ganging up on the pro-Trump folks. 

These are two almost completely opposite perspectives on the same problem. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here but unless we can resolve this difference, we’re screwed. 

Yeah, I'd say there's a disconnect.  

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13 minutes ago, toshiba said:

I think this is a spot on point.  That word is probably worse than any of the other banned words on this forum.

Stop banning everything you don't like!!! Why does that mentality continue to repeat here over and over and over?

 

Edited by supermike80
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16 minutes ago, Don't Noonan said:

Perhaps banning the word troll makes sense?  I have been called a troll and a liar by folks in this very thread because I agreed with several media sources left and right that called what the white house released a transcript.  Ironically the folks attacking me were the very defination of trollish behavior.

I don't want to see this place shut down any more than you do.  I will try my best to ignore folks who refuse to try and understand other political views and can't help but attack those who have a different opinion.

Good point.  People throw out the word troll as soon as they disagree with you.  I don't always agree with your points but I don't think you're a troll at all.  There's only 1 or 2 posters I would truly label as trolls but no need to name them

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