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RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire, KC


BigTex

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52 minutes ago, BigTex said:

I prefer what I see on the field vs a score because there's always an outlier. He could very well end up as the fourth best of the group but I would be ok with that considering how good they are.

Tex

You’re good making a 1.01 bet on an outlier? I just don’t consider this much to talk about
 

I don’t put a ton of stock into these sorts of things. All I know is he was the 1st RB taken on the best team in the league

Edited by I-ROK
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1 minute ago, Wooters said:

Yeah, exactly, thanks for linking to my point. Forest through the trees is a common way to mis-state the actual phrase. Much like “I could care less” (it’s couldn’t care less)

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Put me down as saying I do not care one iota about speed score, athletic score, or any of that kind of stuff.  I actually find it laughable people think they unlocked some kind of cheat code, that a guy like Brett Veach would be so dunce and non-analytical that he'd be taking an "outlier" RB in round one and if he'd only used some living room GM's scores.....

And please don't confuse what I'm saying as athletic testing does not matter. It does, but needs to be looking at more then just a basic "score". It's more of a process of marrying what you see on video with the athletic testing scores.

 

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On 6/19/2020 at 10:33 PM, I-ROK said:

You’re good making a 1.01 bet on an outlier? I just don’t consider this much to talk about
 

I don’t put a ton of stock into these sorts of things. All I know is he was the 1st RB taken on the best team in the league

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Tex

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/20/2020 at 1:57 PM, menobrown said:

I actually find it laughable people think they unlocked some kind of cheat code, that a guy like Brett Veach would be so dunce and non-analytical that he'd be taking an "outlier" RB in round one and if he'd only used some living room GM's scores.....

Pfffftttt...what has that guy ever accomplished?

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

Quote

Chiefs signed all six of their rookies to four-year contracts, including first-round RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire.

The No. 32 overall pick joins the most explosive offense in the NFL. Edwards-Helaire drew comparisons to Brian Westbrook by head coach Andy Reid (not bad) and apparently was the name Patrick Mahomes immediately suggested when questioned by GM Brett Veach prior to the first-round. Edwards-Helaire is fresh off a spectacular season, recording the most receptions by an SEC running back in over 10 years. Only Damien Williams stands in his way to reaching top 12 RB status.

SOURCE: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

Jul 20, 2020, 10:21 PM ET

 

 

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On 6/20/2020 at 12:57 PM, menobrown said:

Put me down as saying I do not care one iota about speed score, athletic score, or any of that kind of stuff.  I actually find it laughable people think they unlocked some kind of cheat code, that a guy like Brett Veach would be so dunce and non-analytical that he'd be taking an "outlier" RB in round one and if he'd only used some living room GM's scores.....

And please don't confuse what I'm saying as athletic testing does not matter. It does, but needs to be looking at more then just a basic "score". It's more of a process of marrying what you see on video with the athletic testing scores.

 

Draft capital matters the most in these things, but we can’t just ignore those measurable either. 
However, the two bolded areas are contradictory... if you don’t care one iota then you are saying they don’t matter. If it does matter and needs to be looked at as part of a process, then you care more than one iota. 
Athletic scores have been shown to have a great correlation with NFL/fantasy success. They should matter. It isn’t the be all end all, but if you want to minimize wasted draft picks, you’ll do better if you stick to the “cheat code” than if you don’t. 
 

GMs miss all the time on their picks, and many times an armchair GMs had it right. GMs just get paid while making their mistakes

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3 hours ago, Johnny B. Goode said:


However, the two bolded areas are contradictory... if you don’t care one iota then you are saying they don’t matter. If it does matter and needs to be looked at as part of a process, then you care more than one iota. 

It's not contradictory because I refuse to put much stock in a speed score which is not nuanced enough for me, omits items I view as key factors and IMO puts to much emphasis on others.

I mentioned it's about marrying what you see on video with the workout numbers. That's what matters to me and since this is a CHE thread lets use him. He looks like a 4.55-4.65 guy to me on tape. Check, if he'd run a 4.68 I'd have been leery as you are now getting into outlier status. He looks short and squat. Check, obviously. He demonstrates strong leg drive and a lot of power on his cuts. 39" inch vertical which is elite. Check and that vertical was kind of huge to me fwiw.

Marrying the athletic scores is to me another way of saying does the testing matchup with how I see the player win on game video. To me for CEH it absolutely does.

For several years now I create a baseline of top fantasy producing RB's 40, 3 cone, vertical and 10 yard split. Getting more difficult to get all these numbers but I look at top producing fantasy players and if a prospect can't hit one of these thresholds it is absolutely a problem because now I'm drafting an outlier. This has led me over the years to drastically dropping RB's like Stepfan Taylor and Alex Collins down my rankings as they to me had reached outlier status.  Last year this bit me as I also put Devin Singletary in the outlier status. Usually I need a RB to hit a few baselines or be elite in 1-2 to of these areas. CEH as I mentioned earlier did demonstrate an elite vertical jump which for me was really a big factor in how I viewed him as I mentioned earlier. Had he jumped 31" it would have been as problematic to me as if he ran a 4.68, but speed score is not factoring any of that into the equation.

The preceding  paragraphs are what I mean by looking at athletic testing and not ignoring while at the same time not looking at or factoring in speed score. I'm good with you disagreeing with me on how I view CEH, ok with you saying I'm wrong to not agree with speed score.  But please don't label what I said as contradictory because that's not accurate.

 

Edited by menobrown
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14 minutes ago, menobrown said:

  Last year this bit me as I also put Devin Singletary in the outlier status.

I'd stick with what you're doing. Singletary is almost a legendary outlier by accomplishment already.  Rare air for him given his measureables.

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37 minutes ago, menobrown said:

I still do it but the one you spend so much time and energy hating on never fit my outlier box, as I tried to explain.

I don't spend a ton of energy on it. Maybe once a month now if you look closely. And notice I didn't bring him up.

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24 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I don't spend a ton of energy on it. Maybe once a month now if you look closely. And notice I didn't bring him up.

I've not been posting or checking in much in little over last month, missed that and it's all good, just hoping we get a chance soon to see them on the field.

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I’m not sure about that. Who would start over him?

Darwin Thompson or Darrel Williams are the options, though I thought maybe Williams was no longer with them. Either way, it's not much competition. It might take a game or two, tops. As someone who rosters Mahomes, blocking just got wayyyyyy more unsure. Bad for that.

eta* Oh yeah DeAndre Washington instead of Darrel Williams

Edited by rockaction
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4 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Let’s not overthink this. The Chiefs spent a first round pick on CEH and his only real competition is now eliminated. DeAndre Washington is not starting for the Chiefs.

You know how coaches are, though. 

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Just now, starks said:

Damian Williams opted out not Darrell. I just need to know who to draft between Darrell and Deandre Washington with my late pick tonight

Washington is the more established back in the NFL but who knows? Fantasy seasons are up for grabs, that's for sure. 

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Don't recall them bringing in anyone of consequence after Spencer Ware went down and don't see it this time either. As they did then they will again and that's make their rookie RB their feature player.  But  I'm sure they'll be smart with CEH and understand their goal is Super Bowl and asking a rookie RB to be a bell cow for 20 weeks is probably asking to much so I'd expect a second RB at least to get some solid work early in the season.

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Playing the best players?

What defines best player? I've been doing this for quite some time and watched guys sit because of pass protection too many times.

7 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

But this is his first season as a Chief which gives him zero advantage over CEH. 

That's what I meant by who knows. Instead of typing out every thought I have, I generalized. But then why are we expecting guys like Devonta Freeman to step into Tampa and pass pro immediately, too? We tend to want it two ways in FF. "He doesn't know the offense" when it suits us vs. "he's a professional" when it does.

 Can't really have it both ways at once, I guess.  I think Washington could step in from Gruden's offense and play in KC. Most likely that's what happens. Unless Reid sticks with his guy WIlliams. Really, you can't know.

So "who knows?" is about the best answer. 

Edited by rockaction
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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

What defines best player? I've been doing this for quite some time and watched guys sit because of pass protection too many times.

That's what I meant by who knows. Instead of typing out every thought I have, I generalized. But then why are we expecting guys like Devonta Freeman to step into Tampa and pass pro immediately, too? We tend to want it two ways in FF. "He doesn't know the offense" when it suits us vs. "he's a professional" when it does.

 Can't really have it both ways at once, I guess.  I think Washington could step in from Gruden's offense and play in KC. Most likely that's what happens. Unless Reid sticks with his guys WIlliams. Really, you can't know.

So "who knows?" is about the best answer. 

Ok - some people dig in their heals on their original player evaluations and can’t see the forest through the trees. 

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Ok - some people dig in their heals on their original player evaluations and can’t see the forest through the trees. 

Oh yeah, that's not me. What's done is done. Just think how the NFL moves now.

And I just don't think CEH is 1.01 in a draft. He was a first-rounder or early second to me. 

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

Oh yeah, that's not me. What's done is done. Just think how the NFL moves now.

And I just don't think CEH is 1.01 in a draft. He was a first-rounder or early second to me. 

I don’t think anyone takes him 1.01 in redraft - In dynasty? That discussion was already beat to death.

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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Just now, Dr. Octopus said:

I don’t think anyone takes him 1.01 in redraft - In dynasty? That discussion was already beat to death.

I meant in dynasty. I thought you were saying I might be digging my heels in because of my original assessment, which was less sanguine than other assessments of CEH.

No matter. My main point for redraft now is that you likely know what the coach could do. What he does is totally beyond one's control besides looking at evidence. On one hand you have draft capital. On the other you're asking a rookie with no camp yet to keep your 500 million dollar man upright. Don't think KC isn't reeling a bit today with the news that Williams is opting out. 

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