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☹ Official 2020 Las Vegas Raiders thread ☹ (4 Viewers)

DocHolliday said:
The team showed serious potential so far this year.   With help at WR and DE, next year could be very fun.  It’s a tough division though.   KC is great and the Chargers have a really good young QB.   They have flaws but a great QB can mask some of that.   

If the Raiders lose to the Jets, there should not be another word mentioned about playoffs.  
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I disagree on one point... we need DT help too. I would argue even more than DE.

Collins was suppose to add there but I am not impressed. 

We currently have .5 sacks and 3.5 TFL from the DT position. I don't know what our pressures, knock downs and QB hits from there are but I am confident from watching the games they are sparse. Hankins is a good run stopper but the rest look to be rotational players. 

I think if we can get some more push up the middle that will generate more sacks from not just from the middle but at the DE spot too. 

 
rockaction said:
Please don't. We're tanking for Trevor up in Jersey. The New England game was quite the nail biter for us, but NE pulled it with some Folk magic. Really, I hope you guys have a heck of a week, because we're all nervous in Jets land that this is the week we catch someone vulnerable sleeping, and that Atlanta game was completely unsettling. Then again, the point that Atlanta deserves credit is a good one. They fly around the ball on defense for Morris now.

Stinkin Ref is still a quasi-literate troll job, though. Ignore that.
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It was a really strange experience to waltz into a match up thread on the Jets subreddit with both Raider and Jets fans discussing the upcoming game -- and uniformly have every single poster rooting for the same team.

I really feel for the Jets. I never want to see any team give anything less than 100% -- there is still parity in the league and Any Given Sunday. But this is one time where I do condone outright tanking. That team needs to shed its coach, its GM, and get a true blue-chip QB to truly rebuild around. 

I miss watching Raiders/Jets tilts with my college buddies at a mid-Long Island (Bethpage or Farmingdale?) Hooters when I lived in the city. Entire families showing up at 11 AM in green and white zebra-striped Zubas. Salt of the earth good peeps. They deserve a turn around.

 
Chadstroma said:
I disagree on one point... we need DT help too. I would argue even more than DE.

Collins was suppose to add there but I am not impressed. 

We currently have .5 sacks and 3.5 TFL from the DT position. I don't know what our pressures, knock downs and QB hits from there are but I am confident from watching the games they are sparse. Hankins is a good run stopper but the rest look to be rotational players. 

I think if we can get some more push up the middle that will generate more sacks from not just from the middle but at the DE spot too. 
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Honestly we just need a new defensive coordinator.

 
Chadstroma said:
I disagree on one point... we need DT help too. I would argue even more than DE.

Collins was suppose to add there but I am not impressed. 

We currently have .5 sacks and 3.5 TFL from the DT position. I don't know what our pressures, knock downs and QB hits from there are but I am confident from watching the games they are sparse. Hankins is a good run stopper but the rest look to be rotational players. 

I think if we can get some more push up the middle that will generate more sacks from not just from the middle but at the DE spot too. 
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You are correct about DT.   Add that to the list.  

 
Chadstroma said:
Jacobs out for the game. Not good but Booker has been playing at a high level. 
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Jets run defense is better than people give them credit for. They're eighth in rush defense DVOA, according to Football Outsiders. They're 32nd in pass defense. I've never been a Booker backer, though he has looked good in fits and starts this year. This has all the making of a big day for Derek Carr (who I just called David for the millionth time), a guy who is someone I'm starting in my Superflex league. This bodes well for him, not so much for the Raiders. Jets are dead last in pass defense. They're basically guys off of the street at corner. Turrible.

 
Yenrub said:
What does Ferrell and Abram being out do to the Raiders run defense?
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It definitely hurts it. Ferrell has been good against the run and Abram is a hard hitting safety. They will be missed. If you need to start Gore...um go ahead.

 
Yenrub said:
What does Ferrell and Abram being out do to the Raiders run defense?
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Don't think it can be much worse. Ferrell is stout against the run. Abrams is good, lousy, good, lousy--sometimes all on the same play.

Given up 319 points, fifth worst in the league. About as bad as it gets. Gave up 6 to Browns on a terrible weather day in Cleveland and 12 to Broncos at home. And they harassed Mahomes plenty for a win in which they still gave up 32 points.

Otherwise, dreck.

 
rockaction said:
Please don't. We're tanking for Trevor up in Jersey. The New England game was quite the nail biter for us, but NE pulled it with some Folk magic. Really, I hope you guys have a heck of a week, because we're all nervous in Jets land that this is the week we catch someone vulnerable sleeping, and that Atlanta game was completely unsettling. Then again, the point that Atlanta deserves credit is a good one. They fly around the ball on defense for Morris now.

Stinkin Ref is still a quasi-literate troll job, though. Ignore that.
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You, sir, are funny AND wise.

 
Yenrub said:
What does Ferrell and Abram being out do to the Raiders run defense?
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I am showing Clelin will be off covid and available. 

Jacobs and Abram out. 

Beasley "might" get called up from PS and activated as well. That would be interesting. 

 
One said:
Will Raiders D come to play this week?
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The Raiders is just not that good.  Fortunately, the Jets don’t have explosive players.  I expect a boring game without much scoring since the Jets run D is decent and the Raiders only good receiving threat is Waller.  Both teams will move the ball some but there shouldn’t be a lot of scoring.  

 
DocHolliday said:
The Raiders is just not that good.  Fortunately, the Jets don’t have explosive players.  I expect a boring game without much scoring since the Jets run D is decent and the Raiders only good receiving threat is Waller.  Both teams will move the ball some but there shouldn’t be a lot of scoring.  
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Sorry bud, I think the emotional toll of the game is playing with you.

Other than the disaster of the last game and the crazy weather game with the Browns we gave scored 30 or more every game against some better defenses than what the Jets have. 

I see absolutely no reason that we put up at least 30 on them. 

 
Chadstroma said:
Sorry bud, I think the emotional toll of the game is playing with you.

Other than the disaster of the last game and the crazy weather game with the Browns we gave scored 30 or more every game against some better defenses than what the Jets have. 

I see absolutely no reason that we put up at least 30 on them. 
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In my haste, I left out a very important letter. D.  The Raiders D isn’t that good but that is offset some by the lack of explosive players for NY.  The Jets will move the ball some and score. The Raiders D is an issue.  

 
Tiny thing but I saw that QB Peterman is inactive. Does this mean that Marriota is the backup and active for the first time this year? Or maybe he has been before and I missed it. Nothing earth shattering but an excuse to get this thread back on the first page ;)  

 
We need to account for Quinnen Williams out there, play ball control and move chains efficiently, and avoid penalties.

If our offense can play efficiently, our bend and sometimes break D can do the rest so we stay over the top on points.

 
Can Guenther be fired at halftime please?

EDIT: I'd rather not wait till halftime.

 
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Stompin' Tom Connors said:
The soft zone D when the Jets were in the Red Zone is the trigger for me. Enough is enough, give Rod the stick.

Would really help if we could learn to tackle. We are horrendous. 
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The D has been so bad for so long that the Raiders don’t even know what good looks like.   Offense is decent.  D is the reason that the team doesn’t make the playoffs. 

 
Happy that Ruggs redeemed himself but man, we did not deserve this win.

Season is alive, but with the performances we have seen the last few weeks we are not that team this year.

Frustrating to not see us play to our potential.

 
32 Counter Pass said:
And where should the blame be laid for the defense? Coaching staff? GM? Refs?
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Other than Mack pretty much every pick Reggie made on defense was a miss and we invested a lot of high picks on D during his tenure. 

We are getting more talent there though our FA signings have fallen flat (Joyner, Collins, Littleton). 

Guenther is frustrating and I do hope we eject him after this season and go with someone else. I would prefer Rod over him. 

 
I think I’d rather talk about my Mariota vs Peterman backup QB post above than this game. 🤮

 
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What an absolute gift from Gregg Williams.  I could not believe he had everyone at the line of scrimmage and brought the house in that spot.  That was just about the only chance the Raiders had to score.  Just mindboggling you would play that defense with like 13 seconds left and the other team with no timeouts and having to score a TD with the ball near midfield.

 
ICON211 said:
What an absolute gift from Gregg Williams.  I could not believe he had everyone at the line of scrimmage and brought the house in that spot.  That was just about the only chance the Raiders had to score.  Just mindboggling you would play that defense with like 13 seconds left and the other team with no timeouts and having to score a TD with the ball near midfield.
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You think they playing to lose perhaps?   The Raiders had no business winning that game.  The D is just horrible. Lack of talent and poor scheme provides the same results year after year.   

 
Chadstroma said:
Other than Mack pretty much every pick Reggie made on defense was a miss and we invested a lot of high picks on D during his tenure. 

We are getting more talent there though our FA signings have fallen flat (Joyner, Collins, Littleton). 

Guenther is frustrating and I do hope we eject him after this season and go with someone else. I would prefer Rod over him. 
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Reggie has not been the GM for two drafts and FA windows. Way past the point of laying the blame on Reggie. Try again.

 
Reggie got a ton of credit for accomplishing absolutely nothing for years.  I'm ok with him getting a little too much blame.

 
32 Counter Pass said:
Reggie has not been the GM for two drafts and FA windows. Way past the point of laying the blame on Reggie. Try again.
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ICON211 said:
Reggie got a ton of credit for accomplishing absolutely nothing for years.  I'm ok with him getting a little too much blame.
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Reggie gets little to no credit for Mack. He fell cuz the Jags inexplicably chose Bortles. He was a no-brainer choice. Even he couldn't mess it up. He gets lots of blame still and he should. His drafts with the Raiders go from 2013 to 2017. Who did he get on defense besides Mack that contributed  significantly? Nobody. Here are his defensive picks: 2013-- DJ Hayden, Sio Moore, Stacy McGee, David Bass. 2014--Mack, Justin Ellis, Keith McGill, TJ Carrie, Shelby Harris, Jonathan Dowling. 2014--Mario Edwards, Ben Heeney, Neiron Ball, Max Valles, Dexter McDonald. 2015--Karl Joseph, Jihad Ward, Shillique Calhoun. 2017--Gareon Conley, Obi Mwoufajfajfkh, Eddie Vanderdoesn't, Marquel Lee, Shalom Luani, Treyvon Hester.

He missed on 3 of 4 first rounders, 3 second rounders and 3 third rounders. He went defense 10 times rounds 1 thru 3 in his regime (out of 15 choices) and had Hayden, Mack, Joseph and Conley to show for it. That kind of record can set a team back for years and it has.

And Gruden and Mayock haven't remotely gotten the defense steadied in their 2.5 years. It's as bad as ever.

 
32 Counter Pass said:
Reggie has not been the GM for two drafts and FA windows. Way past the point of laying the blame on Reggie. Try again.
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First, your question was from the following "The D has been so bad for so long that the Raiders don’t even know what good looks like." For so long. Which is true. We haven't had an effective defense in way too long.

Second, Mayock has been the GM for two years. I really don't know what to tell you if you think that the previous drafts 3-5 years ago do not impact this defense. If you do then I don't know how to help you understand anything about this current defense. Let's look at the 2017 draft (as a whole it was horrible but just defensively)

Round 1: (No. 24 overall) Gareon Conley, CB
Round 2: (56) Obi Melifonwu, S, 
Round 3: (87) Eddie Vanderdoes, DT
Round 5: (168) Marquel Lee, LB
Round 7: (221) Shalom Luani, S and (244) Treyvon Hester, DT

Third, I didn't lay the blame on Reggie, at least not all of the blame. If you need help on that, I clearly pointed out the failed FA signings of Mayock. I was very excited for both Joyner and Littleton neither have lived up to the signings. Collins as well but I can't say I was excited about him. I also pointed out Guenther. 

 
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ICON211 said:
Reggie got a ton of credit for accomplishing absolutely nothing for years.  I'm ok with him getting a little too much blame.
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He did a great job cleaning up an inherited salary cap mess that was ridiculously bad. 

He also did a great job of putting together team friendly contracts. 

And he did good on a few picks. Mack is a beast. Carr in the 2nd was great. Jackson was a good pick. I would say though he didn't light the world on fire with us, so was Cooper. 

He missed on way too many draft picks and was hit and miss on free agents where he would shop in the bargain bin often. 

I like the guy but Mayock is far superior talent evaluator. 

 
Chadstroma said:
First, your question was from the following "The D has been so bad for so long that the Raiders don’t even know what good looks like." For so long. Which is true. We haven't had an effective defense in way too long.

Second, Mayock has been the GM for two years. I really don't know what to tell you if you think that the previous drafts 3-5 years ago do not impact this defense. If you do then I don't know how to help you understand anything about this current defense. Let's look at the 2017 draft (as a whole it was horrible but just defensively)

Round 1: (No. 24 overall) Gareon Conley, CB
Round 2: (56) Obi Melifonwu, S, 
Round 3: (87) Eddie Vanderdoes, DT
Round 5: (168) Marquel Lee, LB
Round 7: (221) Shalom Luani, S and (244) Treyvon Hester, DT

Third, I didn't lay the blame on Reggie, at least not all of the blame. If you need help on that, I clearly pointed out the failed FA signings of Mayock. I was very excited for both Joyner and Littleton neither have lived up to the signings. Collins as well but I can't say I was excited about him. I also pointed out Guenther. 
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The Reggie McKenzie era was a total failure.  When Gruden and Mayock took over the roster had very little talent outside of the offensive line.  That draft referenced above also included David Sharpe, Jylan Ware and Elijah Hood.  That is about as bad a draft as anyone can possibly have.

 
Chadstroma said:
He did a great job cleaning up an inherited salary cap mess that was ridiculously bad. 

He also did a great job of putting together team friendly contracts. 

And he did good on a few picks. Mack is a beast. Carr in the 2nd was great. Jackson was a good pick. I would say though he didn't light the world on fire with us, so was Cooper. 

He missed on way too many draft picks and was hit and miss on free agents where he would shop in the bargain bin often. 

I like the guy but Mayock is far superior talent evaluator. 
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This is something I think he gets too much credit for.  He was given the job security most GMs are not afforded to be able to do this.  Anyone can sit on their hands and do nothing for a couple years if they know they will not be fired and their record for their first 3-4 years will not be held against them by the owner.  The harder part is building a talented and deep roster and he was very bad at that.

 
Ok... here are my game thoughts. 

So... yea.... we should have lost. We escaped with a win from a crappy winless team. No idea why we struggled against the run so bad today. Our offense was not its best but not hideous. I am not sure if it is a decent Jet run defense or if Booker exposed himself as a good back up to add some pop after Jacobs does most of the heavy lifting. In the end, a win is a win. We escaped with one. But it is hard to feel good about that win.

Dang, I really wish the Jets were willing to deal Quinnen for less than the King's ransom they were asking. He is the type of player that would really go a long way to help our defense. He is a play maker in the middle. Oh well.

Clelin finally got that extra inch he has kept missing all season with two forced fumble sacks. That was nice to see. 

Morrow made another good play on his sack when they couldn't pick him up at all. 

Arnette out back to back games with concussion worries me. That is not good and I expect him to miss extra time. We need him in there and he needs the time to continue to develop. 

Abram out does change the defense. He can make some bone headed decisions but he leads this defense to play with more passion. 

Waller balled out in the half but got quiet in the second. I didn't notice any huge adjustments but I was watching on my phone so maybe I missed it. 

Ruggs a little more involved and obviously the game winner. You do have to wonder if the Jets org wanted to take the L for Lawrence. I mean, single coverage with no over the top help at all on Ruggs? Sure, he hasn't lit up the league to this point but you have to know his speed any that is likely was our last hope. 

One last thing... what the hell with letting the clock run. The player went out. That was BS. 

 
ICON211 said:
This is something I think he gets too much credit for.  He was given the job security most GMs are not afforded to be able to do this.  Anyone can sit on their hands and do nothing for a couple years if they know they will not be fired and their record for their first 3-4 years will not be held against them by the owner.  The harder part is building a talented and deep roster and he was very bad at that.
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This is true.  Many teams have success in the tear down part of the rebuilding mode.  It’s the actual building that follows that is very challenging.   The Raiders D is a good indication of the challenges of building.   It takes years of hitting draft picks and signing FA wisely.  

 
32 Counter Pass said:
Reggie has not been the GM for two drafts and FA windows. Way past the point of laying the blame on Reggie. Try again.
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And all we have to show for it, just two years later, are Carr, Gabe Jackson, and Rodney Hudson.  It's not like anyone is having a ton of success elsewhere either aside from Mack, a pick that even RM couldn't #### up.  Reggie's regime was an abject failure.

 
Hankmoody said:
And all we have to show for it, just two years later, are Carr, Gabe Jackson, and Rodney Hudson.  It's not like anyone is having a ton of success elsewhere either aside from Mack, a pick that even RM couldn't #### up.  Reggie's regime was an abject failure.
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And he fell flat with Allen and Del Rio for HC hiring too. 

 
Hankmoody said:
And all we have to show for it, just two years later, are Carr, Gabe Jackson, and Rodney Hudson.  It's not like anyone is having a ton of success elsewhere either aside from Mack, a pick that even RM couldn't #### up.  Reggie's regime was an abject failure.
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Sorry I am not buying that Reggie deserves the blame. A defense can be turned around rather quickly with the right moves / coaching. Most recent example is the Dolphins. Took less than a year to be above average. This regime has had 2+ years. It is either coaching or poor talent, or both. 

On the bright side, the Over is an auto bet with this team. 

 
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ICON211 said:
This is something I think he gets too much credit for.  He was given the job security most GMs are not afforded to be able to do this.  Anyone can sit on their hands and do nothing for a couple years if they know they will not be fired and their record for their first 3-4 years will not be held against them by the owner.  The harder part is building a talented and deep roster and he was very bad at that.
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ding ding ding ding ding.  Any donkey can come in and just cut big salaries and eat dead money for a couple of years.  That wasn't at all creative nor ingenious, and IMO he actually cut way too deep - often cutting guys with marginal salary implications but that could have provided solid veteran play/leadership that young guys could model.

The only thing he did, which was brilliant, was he took a then revolutionary approach to contract structures - front loading money into years that were otherwise very light (before they could roll over cap space this was a significant benefit) and minimizing the long-term guaranteed/dead money.  Those contracts at the time were pretty paradigm-shifting.  Unfortunately, all the long-term space and flexibility they opened up was wasted with horrible personnel staffing.

Enough on the dead horse though.  I liked Gunther initially but he's done zero with what he has.  I'm critical of Carr for not raising the level of play of the WR around him and I expect the same from the coaches - you gotta be able to get more out of the sum of what you have or you need to go.  We need to get someone in here that can raise the play of who we have, which at this stage might not be as awful as it's looking like.  The CB's have got to play better and Abram needs to cut down on the ####### mistakes in particular.

 
Hankmoody said:
ding ding ding ding ding.  Any donkey can come in and just cut big salaries and eat dead money for a couple of years.  That wasn't at all creative nor ingenious, and IMO he actually cut way too deep - often cutting guys with marginal salary implications but that could have provided solid veteran play/leadership that young guys could model.

The only thing he did, which was brilliant, was he took a then revolutionary approach to contract structures - front loading money into years that were otherwise very light (before they could roll over cap space this was a significant benefit) and minimizing the long-term guaranteed/dead money.  Those contracts at the time were pretty paradigm-shifting.  Unfortunately, all the long-term space and flexibility they opened up was wasted with horrible personnel staffing.

Enough on the dead horse though.  I liked Gunther initially but he's done zero with what he has.  I'm critical of Carr for not raising the level of play of the WR around him and I expect the same from the coaches - you gotta be able to get more out of the sum of what you have or you need to go.  We need to get someone in here that can raise the play of who we have, which at this stage might not be as awful as it's looking like.  The CB's have got to play better and Abram needs to cut down on the ####### mistakes in particular.
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In the end, it doesn't matter how well you clear a cap mess and structure contracts if you have a horrible track record in drafting and not much better record in FA. 

There is a reason Reggie is not a GM with anyone right now.

 
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