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2021 Pittsburgh Steelers - 9/24: Ben playing, Dionte OUT, Watt is GTD


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12 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

Agreed. Injuries have played a role, but that's part of my issue. He's a player's coach, everyone loves him, his quotes are on Sportscenter, and he's a minority head coach for the Steelers, owned by the family the Rooney Rule is named for. It's never his fault, nothing ever touches him... it's the players, it's the assistants, it's the schedule, it's the drama. But in the end, when will the buck stop with him? Players and assistants come and go, the schedule changes, but the drama and underachievement has been a constant under him for a decade now.

When will people look past all the fluff and realize that his teams have been undisciplined and filled with off-the-field drama that surely has spilled over to the field on Sundays?

I know, I know... who's out there that's better? That's a chance I'd be willing to take, personally. Tomlin himself was an unknown when we hired him over Russ Grimm. I understand that people want to give him credit for making the most of the situations with guys like Bell, Brown, Bryant, JuJu... but it's the culture that he creates in Pittsburgh that allows those personalities to grow and ultimately get out of control.

I just want him to be held accountable with some pressure on him for a change, that's all.

I think they made the right decision instead of Ken Whisenhunt and Russ Grimm...

Martavis Bryant was known to have "character concerns" coming out of college, and Bell and Brown's issues grew over time but the FO kept offering them huge contracts. Why is so much ire directed at Tomlin and not Colbert?

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11 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

I think they made the right decision instead of Ken Whisenhunt and Russ Grimm...

Martavis Bryant was known to have "character concerns" coming out of college, and Bell and Brown's issues grew over time but the FO kept offering them huge contracts. Why is so much ire directed at Tomlin and not Colbert?

Mostly because Colbert isn't the topic right now. :) The drafting hasn't exactly been stellar for a while now, either.

Never said that hiring Tomlin wasn't the right decision then. Just saying that extending him may not have been the right decision now.

Aside from the lack of discipline, his team too often showing a lack of an ability to make in game adjustments and his awful clock management skills have caused every Steelers fan out there a lot of anguish over the years, too. I just feel like if he had taken over a mediocre team and not built up his resume for 5 years on Cowher's back, he certainly wouldn't be as revered now based on his last 10 years. The Steelers won the Super Bowl in 2004 and Ben's motor cycle accident was all that stood between them and another great season in 2005. Tomlin inherited a dream scenario in 2006.

My bet is that if Tomlin had put his foot down with a bit more discipline along the way as those egos grew or expressed enough to the FO about a lack of ability to win with that type of selfishness on the roster, it would've changed things. I doubt much gets done without Tomlin's buy-in. He's just not the type, and I don't like the idea of trying to develop a QB in an environment that's been lacking discipline for a long, long time. I'd rather them re-load with a younger, more offensive geared mind to adjust to today's NFL.

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I guess, I just think it's a "the grass is always greener" situation. There's not more than 4 other coaches I'd possibly rather have, and those still have their faults: Reid, Belichick, Sean Payton, and Kyle Shanahan. Just because someone is a good OC or DC does not mean they'll be a good HC. I often hear that the Steelers should replace Tomlin, but the options are either not put forth, or are just lacking in comparison. 

Joe Brady, Byron Leftwich, and Brian Daboll are interesting options who have shown themselves to be good offensive schemers, but that just means I'd rather have them as our OC.  

Our head coach has never had a losing season in 14 years. Bill Cowher may have retired leaving behind a talented roster, but he is not responsible for that amount of success. Also, seems weird how Cowher gets credit for Tomlin's success, but Fisher doesn't get credit for McVay's success when he left him that talented roster...

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12 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

I guess, I just think it's a "the grass is always greener" situation. There's not more than 4 other coaches I'd possibly rather have, and those still have their faults: Reid, Belichick, Sean Payton, and Kyle Shanahan. Just because someone is a good OC or DC does not mean they'll be a good HC. I often hear that the Steelers should replace Tomlin, but the options are either not put forth, or are just lacking in comparison. 

Joe Brady, Byron Leftwich, and Brian Daboll are interesting options who have shown themselves to be good offensive schemers, but that just means I'd rather have them as our OC.  

Our head coach has never had a losing season in 14 years. Bill Cowher may have retired leaving behind a talented roster, but he is not responsible for that amount of success. Also, seems weird how Cowher gets credit for Tomlin's success, but Fisher doesn't get credit for McVay's success when he left him that talented roster...

Agree to disagree on how many current coaches would be preferable to Tomlin. I'm not up on who the best other options could be, but I can be sure I'd be looking at someone more offensive than defensive, and someone who's more of a tactician than Tomlin has ever appeared to be. 

Cowher is a different story... if he had Roethlisberger for his entire coaching career instead of just the last couple years instead of the likes of O'Donnell, Tomczak, and Kordell, his level of success would've been vastly different. But then again, his loyalty to Kordell was one his biggest faults.

The big difference between your Fisher/McVay comparison is that Fisher wasn't winning with that roster before McVay made it into a winner. Cowher had gone 15-1 with a conference championship loss, 11-5 with a Super Bowl win, and then 8-8 after Ben's motorcycle accident in the 3 years before Tomlin took over and continued that success. Kudos to Tomlin for never having a losing record, but he's also had a HOF QB, a lot of talent, and the Browns/Bengals being inept for a majority of that time.

Just my opinion, but I believe there's a decent number of "lesser" coaches who could've had a similar run of success if they had walked into the Steelers' situation 15 years ago and enjoyed unwavering loyalty from ownership. We'll never know.

 

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My take:  If they're going to get rid of a head coach as successful as Tomlin has been, I wouldm't want "a similar run of success."  We already have that.  I'd want better. Which lesser coaches can provide that?  If they're out there, bring 'em on.  And that comes from a person who is a tepid supporter of Tomlin at best.

You cannot argue that he's been successful.   His teams have absolutely crapped the bed in the playoffs, no doubt.  What lesser coach would have been able to get those same teams to not do that?   If they're "lesser"....would they? 

It just feels like the same old circular arguments yinzers had about Cowher 25 years ago, that had wingnuts like  Chuck from Connelsville calling into Sportsbeat daily pining for the Steelers to replace him with Norm Chow 😐 (Though I'm not saying that's what anyone is doing here.)


Semi-related:  I've also always felt like "  Coaches coach, but players make plays."  I'm not willing to completely absolve the gentlemen in the actual uniforms of all guilt with regard to the under-performance in the playoffs the past decade.  Tomlin and his staff are certainly culpable of their share of the blame, but so are the players.  

I probaby have a much bigger beef with Tomlin's choices for some of his staff than just about anything.   Ex-Steeler player retreads and promotions from within are pretty much the only way you're getting hired to this staff, with Munchak being the biggest exception, and I suppose everyone's ol' buddy Todd Haley (So, I guess if I'm using that "algebra", we should all welcome Byron Leftwich as Tomlin's eventually replacement and our new overlord. :))  He seems to remain loyal to his guys a little too long (Fichtner, even  Butler a handful of years ago, etc.), but I'm sure that's also being driven a bit from 'on high' since that's how the organization operates, in general.  I wouldn't hate it to see a few more "innovator" types as his underlings.

 

Edited by 5-ish Finkle
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The Steelers started the season 11-0.  COVID played a huge role in the downswing at the end of the season with the lack of a bye week and the 3 games in 12 days thing, all while losing Bush to injury and further injuries cascading towards the end of the season.  Spotting the Browns 21 points in the first quarter, with a TD on the botched first snap of the game was not on Tomlin either.

Sports fans and ownership are too fickle.  I would rather be a stable and respected franchise than always chasing the next coach every few seasons.  Consistency since 1969 has defined the organization.  If Tomlin lost the locker room completely and had numerous losing seasons, then that is something different.  But he has the respect of his players and those around the league.  And the Rooneys.  And he has won.  A lot.  Only one team wins the championship -- that doesn't mean everyone else in the league is a failure and needs replaced.  Oh wow, the Browns won a playoff game and beat us -- who cares in the grand scheme of things.  Having a team, a coach, and a city to be proud of for doing things the right way is more important.  

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9 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

The Steelers started the season 11-0.  COVID played a huge role in the downswing at the end of the season with the lack of a bye week and the 3 games in 12 days thing, all while losing Bush to injury and further injuries cascading towards the end of the season.  Spotting the Browns 21 points in the first quarter, with a TD on the botched first snap of the game was not on Tomlin either.

Sports fans and ownership are too fickle.  I would rather be a stable and respected franchise than always chasing the next coach every few seasons.  Consistency since 1969 has defined the organization.  If Tomlin lost the locker room completely and had numerous losing seasons, then that is something different.  But he has the respect of his players and those around the league.  And the Rooneys.  And he has won.  A lot.  Only one team wins the championship -- that doesn't mean everyone else in the league is a failure and needs replaced.  Oh wow, the Browns won a playoff game and beat us -- who cares in the grand scheme of things.  Having a team, a coach, and a city to be proud of for doing things the right way is more important.  

As a Browns fan, I can tell you that people here are overjoyed to finally be off the merry-go-round.  Lack of continuity is a significant factor in ongoing dysfunction. I have long admired the Steelers organization.

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14 hours ago, Steelers4Life said:

 

Cowher is a different story... if he had Roethlisberger for his entire coaching career instead of just the last couple years instead of the likes of O'Donnell, Tomczak, and Kordell, his level of success would've been vastly different. But then again, his loyalty to Kordell was one his biggest faults.

 

 

Cowher played Kordell more out of necessity than loyalty.  He tried to replace him several times (Miller, Tomczak, Graham, Maddox) but his problem was he never had anyone better on the roster.  

The fact that Cowher had O'Donnell, Tomczak, Kordell, etc. at QB was not an accident.  Cowher's philosophy was that you could win a Super Bowl with a mediocre QB as long as you had a great defense and running game. 

He came close to being right but time and again was knocked out of the playoffs early because of sub-standard play by his quarterback.  

It is no coincidence that Cowher won his one and only Super Bowl after he drafted Ben Roethlisberger.  

Now you can say that Tomlin should have fared better in playoffs because he did have Ben and I won't argue that.  Tomlin's teams have been a huge disappointment in the playoffs recently.

I still think he is a pretty good coach.

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I never said he's a bad coach. But I don't think he's anything close to a special coach. I don't think anyone who's watched the Steelers would disagree with my feelings about the lack of discipline, never-ending drama, showing up flat in big games, and his in-game decision making. A high level of talent on the roster, a weak division, and a HOF QB have made up for a lot of his shortcomings as a coach, in my opinion. Some just give him a pass because they've enjoyed regular season success and hey, who's better, right? I don't think he's anywhere near good enough as a coach to deserve the kind of unwavering loyalty he's received from the front office based on his track record since Cowher's core of talent moved on from the team.

It's possible to acknowledge that he's had a good run of regular season success while still holding the belief that his decade long run of playoff failures should put him - at minimum - under some measure of pressure. They aren't mutually exclusive opinions. When I look at WHY he's had the regular season success, I'm not so sure there aren't a lot of coaches who couldn't have taken a team with a HOF quarterback and plenty of talent and put together a string of winning seasons like he's done. Maybe some of those coaches who are perceived as being lesser coaches really aren't - they just didn't walk into such a dream scenario as a head coach.

If we you take away those first five years when he won largely with an inherited core of championship tested talent (which I know you can't) and I told you the Steelers hired a coach with his playoff record over the past 10 years - not just who they've beaten and lost to, but how - I don't think he'd have nearly the support he does. 3 total wins against teams with backup QBs, and bad losses including a loss to Tebow and getting blown out at home twice as huge favorites.

Seriously, if the last decade hasn't done it, what has to happen for him need to feel more pressure and urgency? After Ben retires, he'll get a pass while a new QB is developing.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

I never said he's a bad coach. But I don't think he's anything close to a special coach. I don't think anyone who's watched the Steelers would disagree with my feelings about the lack of discipline, never-ending drama, showing up flat in big games, and his in-game decision making. A high level of talent on the roster, a weak division, and a HOF QB have made up for a lot of his shortcomings as a coach, in my opinion. Some just give him a pass because they've enjoyed regular season success and hey, who's better, right? I don't think he's anywhere near good enough as a coach to deserve the kind of unwavering loyalty he's received from the front office based on his track record since Cowher's core of talent moved on from the team.

It's possible to acknowledge that he's had a good run of regular season success while still holding the belief that his decade long run of playoff failures should put him - at minimum - under some measure of pressure. They aren't mutually exclusive opinions. When I look at WHY he's had the regular season success, I'm not so sure there aren't a lot of coaches who couldn't have taken a team with a HOF quarterback and plenty of talent and put together a string of winning seasons like he's done. Maybe some of those coaches who are perceived as being lesser coaches really aren't - they just didn't walk into such a dream scenario as a head coach.

If we you take away those first five years when he won largely with an inherited core of championship tested talent (which I know you can't) and I told you the Steelers hired a coach with his playoff record over the past 10 years - not just who they've beaten and lost to, but how - I don't think he'd have nearly the support he does. 3 total wins against teams with backup QBs, and bad losses including a loss to Tebow and getting blown out at home twice as huge favorites.

Seriously, if the last decade hasn't done it, what has to happen for him need to feel more pressure and urgency? After Ben retires, he'll get a pass while a new QB is developing.

I have watched the Steelers a little bit over the years and disagree with much of what you have written here.  

Edited by Godsbrother
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"Read somewhere"?  Where?  Who reported it would speak to its validity more than what a bunch of randos on a forum think.

That said, if Williams is the back they like the best, and they can't/won't move from the pick at 24?   He'd almost have to be taken there.  Very unlikely he's going to be available at their current second pick.

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41 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I read somewhere that the Steelers really like Javonte Williams and could take him in the 1st.  Is that a valid rumor?

https://stillcurtain.com/2021/03/30/steelers-lack-interest-javonte-williams/

They didn't have a good showing at UNC, so it doesn't look super likely. At this point if they take a RB in the 1st my bet would be on Etienne, purely based upon showing at pro-day and how his skill set matches up with Canada's offense. 

 

I did read rumors on twitter that the Steelers like Sermon, but I have no clue where that was sourced from. All the mock drafts have the Steelers taking Harris, but I think that's just speculation based around them having Harris as the 1st RB and Rooney saying he wants to improve the running game. 

I won't really be shocked by anyone the Steelers take at 24, just because at one point or another they've been mocked ~15 different players (OT, RB, ILB, OLB, WR, QB, CB). I think I'll only be shocked if we trade back to later in the 1st. 

Edited by steelers1080
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Some draft pundits saying that the Steelers should take Landon Dickerson in the 1st, while others are saying he could be a Day 3 pick. Just goes to show that no one has a clue what's going to happen next Thursday - Saturday. 

Also, it would be a fools errand to select a player in the 1st who has gotten hurt every year he was in college with a season ending injury...

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So do you guys have a clear-cut favorite name or position that you want or think the team will take?

For the other AFC North teams I would have to imagine the Bengals take the OT to protect their franchise who got beat up and landed on IR last year.

I 'think' the Steelers would go O-Line but keep hearing RB, EDGE/LB, CB.  

The most discussed positions for the Browns are CB and EDGE.

Ravens 'probably' leaning EDGE.

The only team I am 'fairly' sure of is the Bengals going with the OT to protect JB but Browns are not leaking a thing and the Steeler fans seem as unsure as Browns fans but I haven't followed the thread to know if you have any favorites.

About a week to go.

What do you think the AFC North does in the 1st round?

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29 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

Some draft pundits saying that the Steelers should take Landon Dickerson in the 1st, while others are saying he could be a Day 3 pick. Just goes to show that no one has a clue what's going to happen next Thursday - Saturday. 

Also, it would be a fools errand to select a player in the 1st who has gotten hurt every year he was in college with a season ending injury...

Yeah I would have concerns if the Steelers go with Dickerson in the first.   Grab an OT or RB and let someone else roll the dice on Dickerson and if no one bites, grab him in the 3rd

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21 minutes ago, Bracie Smathers said:

So do you guys have a clear-cut favorite name or position that you want or think the team will take?

What do you think the AFC North does in the 1st round?

I'm a fan of Jaelan Phillips (OLB) and Tevin Jenkins (RT), but both could be gone by 24, and Phillips has a concerning concussion history from his time at UCLA. I'm not a fan of RB in the 1st, even if that means we wait until the 3rd/4th for Sermon or Gainwell. If Caleb Farley somehow falls to 24 due to his back injury that could be a steal (but Steelers have had terrible CB luck in the draft for the most part). I also don't want us to take Gregory Rousseau, aka Jarvis Jones 2.0. 

I want the Steelers to get some combo of OT, C, RB, CB, LB with the first 5 picks. TE is a need, but I don't really trust us to get a solid one if we use a top pick. 

I think Bengals go Sewell, Pitts, or Chase. Pitts would be the smart play imo. 

Browns rumors have them going pass rusher across from Garrett. 

I think Ravens go LB or WR. 

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1 hour ago, Godsbrother said:

I'm not super concerned with the order but 2 of the first 3 picks better be OT/C and RB.

Center has always been a huge staple of any Steeler offense and it makes a lot of sense to me as far as building for the future.

 

1 hour ago, steelers1080 said:

I'm a fan of Jaelan Phillips (OLB) and Tevin Jenkins (RT), but both could be gone by 24, and Phillips has a concerning concussion history from his time at UCLA. I'm not a fan of RB in the 1st, even if that means we wait until the 3rd/4th for Sermon or Gainwell. If Caleb Farley somehow falls to 24 due to his back injury that could be a steal (but Steelers have had terrible CB luck in the draft for the most part). I also don't want us to take Gregory Rousseau, aka Jarvis Jones 2.0. 

I want the Steelers to get some combo of OT, C, RB, CB, LB with the first 5 picks. TE is a need, but I don't really trust us to get a solid one if we use a top pick. 

I think Bengals go Sewell, Pitts, or Chase. Pitts would be the smart play imo. 

Browns rumors have them going pass rusher across from Garrett. 

I think Ravens go LB or WR. 

Phillips was a name attached to the Browns earlier but not so much lately.  Great measurables but as you noted the concussion history where he quit due to concussions is something to cause hesitation.  I didn't notice much EDGE pass rush, he funneled his best stuff inside and he bit hard on play action so he wasn't great sealing the edge in the run game.  That is just what I noticed.

Farley is a guy who may drop for meds.  Could be a bargain in the 2nd.  

Rousseau, just not sure of him or any EDGE player.  Seems everyone has them listed differently.  Covid has caused all sorts of issues so a team like Pit, or Cle, or Bal 'might' have a gem fall to them.

I must confess I have not looked at O-Linemen since the Browns are not in the market.  

I honestly don't think anyone picking later in the draft knows how it will play out.  Browns fans really don't seem to have any one name but positions named most are CB and EDGE with WR thrown which makes sense due to contracts coming up next year. 

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3 hours ago, Steelers4Life said:

I never said he's a bad coach. But I don't think he's anything close to a special coach. I don't think anyone who's watched the Steelers would disagree with my feelings about the lack of discipline, never-ending drama, showing up flat in big games, and his in-game decision making. A high level of talent on the roster, a weak division, and a HOF QB have made up for a lot of his shortcomings as a coach, in my opinion. Some just give him a pass because they've enjoyed regular season success and hey, who's better, right? I don't think he's anywhere near good enough as a coach to deserve the kind of unwavering loyalty he's received from the front office based on his track record since Cowher's core of talent moved on from the team.

It's possible to acknowledge that he's had a good run of regular season success while still holding the belief that his decade long run of playoff failures should put him - at minimum - under some measure of pressure. They aren't mutually exclusive opinions. When I look at WHY he's had the regular season success, I'm not so sure there aren't a lot of coaches who couldn't have taken a team with a HOF quarterback and plenty of talent and put together a string of winning seasons like he's done. Maybe some of those coaches who are perceived as being lesser coaches really aren't - they just didn't walk into such a dream scenario as a head coach.

If we you take away those first five years when he won largely with an inherited core of championship tested talent (which I know you can't) and I told you the Steelers hired a coach with his playoff record over the past 10 years - not just who they've beaten and lost to, but how - I don't think he'd have nearly the support he does. 3 total wins against teams with backup QBs, and bad losses including a loss to Tebow and getting blown out at home twice as huge favorites.

Seriously, if the last decade hasn't done it, what has to happen for him need to feel more pressure and urgency? After Ben retires, he'll get a pass while a new QB is developing.

Yes, I disagree with a lot of this assessment.  There are plenty of teams with strong rosters and QBs that have not had anywhere close to his long-term success.  There has been a ton of turnover at every position other than QB and C throughout his tenure really.  

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26 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Depending on the Jets and Dolphins, maybe the Steelers can trade back, but stay in the top 40, and get one of the top 3 RBs.  No way any of them fall to 55 though.

according to the trade value charts I have seen, and not sure which one Is most accurate, a trade back from 24 to 32 could net picks 32, 95, and a 4th next year.

or something like 24 and 87 for 32, 64, and 137

I have read Tampa may be looking to move up.

 Not much chance any of it happening but fun to speculate!

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1 hour ago, JoeSteeler said:

according to the trade value charts I have seen, and not sure which one Is most accurate, a trade back from 24 to 32 could net picks 32, 95, and a 4th next year.

or something like 24 and 87 for 32, 64, and 137

I have read Tampa may be looking to move up.

 Not much chance any of it happening but fun to speculate!

Mock I just ran I traded 24 and 128 to the Dolphins for 36 and 50.

Netted Javonte Williams, Quinn-Meinerz, and Radunz with the 36, 50, and 55.  If all 3 RBs are there at 24, and the Steelers like Williams the most, then I think this could work!

Edited by Leeroy Jenkins
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2 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Mock I just ran I traded 24 and 128 to the Dolphins for 36 and 50.

Netted Javonte Williams, Quinn-Meinerz, and Radunz with the 36, 50, and 55.  If all 3 RBs are there at 24, and the Steelers like Williams the most, then I think this could work!

I like both Quinn-Meinerz and Radunz, but taking 2 guys from very small schools might be risky. 

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Where is IB when you need OL starters? Steelers took Pouncey with the 18th overall selection in the first round in 2010. Don’t be surprised or disappointed if Dickerson is the pick.

Landon Dickerson has a PFF rating of 91.3 and is a high character leader. Fits the running style. Has a high football IQ. Consistently finishes plays. The only true concern is injury history.  If the ACL injury isn’t a concern for the FO, it’s going to be hard to pass up a 10 year starter to anchor the OL.

Watch some of his game film if you get a chance. Dickerson is an immovable force in pass pro.  He routinely knocks defenders to the turf. He gets to the second level and can pull or slide to set an edge in the run game.

 

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7 hours ago, JohnnyU said:

I read somewhere that the Steelers really like Javonte Williams and could take him in the 1st.  Is that a valid rumor?

Doubt it.  I like the kid, but the Steelers don’t have a history of drafting a player in the 1st without Colbert and/or Tomlin attending the players pro day.  

Etienne and Harris are far more likely than Williams.

 

Curtain link

most likely picks based upon Colbert/Tomlin visits per the article include: Najee Harris, Etienne, Asante Samuel, Baron Browning, Landon Dickerson or Pat Freiermuth

Edited by Grid71
Add link and list most likely picks from a recent article.
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3 hours ago, Grid71 said:

Where is IB when you need OL starters? Steelers took Pouncey with the 18th overall selection in the first round in 2010. Don’t be surprised or disappointed if Dickerson is the pick.

Landon Dickerson has a PFF rating of 91.3 and is a high character leader. Fits the running style. Has a high football IQ. Consistently finishes plays. The only true concern is injury history.  If the ACL injury isn’t a concern for the FO, it’s going to be hard to pass up a 10 year starter to anchor the OL.

Watch some of his game film if you get a chance. Dickerson is an immovable force in pass pro.  He routinely knocks defenders to the turf. He gets to the second level and can pull or slide to set an edge in the run game.

 

Dickerson tore his ACL in the SEC championship game. No way he is a first round pick

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

Dickerson tore his ACL in the SEC championship game. No way he is a first round pick

Agreed.  They need an immediate starter at either OT or RB with their 1st.  I also think the ACL injury will cause Dickerson to slide.  He might be available in the 3rd.

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11 hours ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

Dickerson tore his ACL in the SEC championship game. No way he is a first round pick

Given the uncertainties that exist beyond the obvious first round picks in this draft I wouldn't say that. I think he's more likely to go sometime day 2, but any team taking a forward thinking approach will be interested in Dickerson. If the rest of his medical checks out (S.O.P. w/Bama guys) once healthy (which could be early in the season) he carries very little bust risk relative to other options available. And the 1st round price tag also comes with the 5th year option.

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It's not just the ACL in the SEC championship. Torn ACL in 2016, Season ending ankle injury in 2017, season ending ankle injury in 2018, and another torn ACL in 2020. 

Also, the Steelers often draft for youth, taking Dickerson in the 1st who will be 23 by October would be out of character for them. 

Najee Harris is 23 which historically would make him not the Steelers type of pick, but if they plan to only keep him for the first contract plus the 5th year option, then age doesn't matter as much. (still don't want a 1st round RB though)

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3 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

Given the uncertainties that exist beyond the obvious first round picks in this draft I wouldn't say that. I think he's more likely to go sometime day 2, but any team taking a forward thinking approach will be interested in Dickerson. If the rest of his medical checks out (S.O.P. w/Bama guys) once healthy (which could be early in the season) he carries very little bust risk relative to other options available. And the 1st round price tag also comes with the 5th year option.

Recovery from ACL injury is really over a year. He wouldn't really be "healthy" at all this season. With multiple ACL injury history, he may never really recover. He is also at huge risk for future injury. He might be worth the risk in the late 2nd, but given the Steelers need to start somebody at C this year, I don't think he is draftable. 

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6 minutes ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

Recovery from ACL injury is really over a year. He wouldn't really be "healthy" at all this season. With multiple ACL injury history, he may never really recover. He is also at huge risk for future injury. He might be worth the risk in the late 2nd, but given the Steelers need to start somebody at C this year, I don't think he is draftable. 

Recent rumors have the Steelers taking him in the 1st, but recent rumors also have him falling to Day 3...

It feels like the lack of leaks due to no Combine and less interaction between reporters and teams has lead to more speculation and more chance of wild things happening in the draft that no one expects. 

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1 minute ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

Recovery from ACL injury is really over a year. He wouldn't really be "healthy" at all this season. With multiple ACL injury history, he may never really recover. He is also at huge risk for future injury. He might be worth the risk in the late 2nd, but given the Steelers need to start somebody at C this year, I don't think he is draftable. 

2 things

*Every ACL is different, but generally speaking a return to the field is in an 8-12 month window. I think this being the 2nd ACL matters more than his 2021 recovery timeline, but without access to the medicals won't offer an opinion. If he checks that box then he's an anchor on the line for years, which certainly could be during the season. 

*Say no to needs based drafting. Free agency is for filling needs. The draft is for building your future core. Sure, once into day 3 when the options available are highly likely to miss then put a greater emphasis on weak spots on the depth chart. Not the top 75 give or take though.

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1 minute ago, MAC_32 said:

2 things

*Every ACL is different, but generally speaking a return to the field is in an 8-12 month window. I think this being the 2nd ACL matters more than his 2021 recovery timeline, but without access to the medicals won't offer an opinion. If he checks that box then he's an anchor on the line for years, which certainly could be during the season. 

*Say no to needs based drafting. Free agency is for filling needs. The draft is for building your future core. Sure, once into day 3 when the options available are highly likely to miss then put a greater emphasis on weak spots on the depth chart. Not the top 75 give or take though.

Needs based drafting is terrible. However the Steelers put themselves in a terrible cap situation and need 2 starters on the OL out of this draft.

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22 minutes ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

Needs based drafting is terrible. However the Steelers put themselves in a terrible cap situation and need 2 starters on the OL out of this draft.

Technically no, they can roll out Banner, Dotson, Finney, DeCastro, Chuks. Definitely not ideal, but technically feasible. And the Steelers cap situation starting next year and moving forward is golden. 

Still hoping they sign Watt long term this offseason. 

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16 minutes ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

Needs based drafting is terrible. However the Steelers put themselves in a terrible cap situation and need 2 starters on the OL out of this draft.

I agree they put themselves in a terrible position. It's very unlike them. Similarly, the rumor @5-ish Finkle posted about ownership demands. I expect this rubbish from poorly run franchises, but this would be extremely out of character for this one. Don't get me wrong - I'm a Browns fan. I hope youse guys make some dumb, short sighted decisions. It'd be nice for the shoe to be on the other foot for the first time in my adult life. I'm just not going to believe it until after it happens.

I don't think a full reset is needed for this team, but if they take a get this fixed by 2022 approach with the OL then whoever is under center next year can get this team back in contention. Not to say this year doesn't matter, but I think it's highly unlikely the 2021 team is a serious threat no matter what's done next week. So draft with the future in mind, sign a couple of veterans at the minimum to fill the gap, then wish Ben good luck playing behind them as they figure it out.

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A full reset is most likely coming over the next 2 years (unless Big Ben plays miraculously this year). Very few players are signed past 2021 (mostly rookie contracts and Cam Heyward) and almost no one is extended past 2022. The Steelers could have signed Haden, Ebron, DeCastro, etc to extensions, but still haven't. I'm not sure if they're just waiting to see how the draft shakes out, or if they plan to move on from most of the older players. 

The core for this team, at this point, appears to be Watt, Bush, Minkah, Cam Heyward, Dotson, Claypool. Most of the other players are on 2 year deals or riding out contracts that end in 2021 or 2022; I'm not sure what will happen with Diontae when his contract expires, if he's someone to build around or not. 

We currently have $117.7 million locked up for next season with money pushed into 2022, 5th year options, and expiring rookie contracts. In 2023 there are only 10 players under contract and $33.7 million in signed players. 

The Steelers have a lot of needs and should go BPA for each selection within the draft. They brought Ben back, but going position specific just to make 1 run is not the best course of action when this team is going to have so much turnover over the next few years. We need a solid core to build around and the best way to do that is with talented players regardless of position. 

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10 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

The Steelers have a lot of needs and should go BPA for each selection within the draft. They brought Ben back, but going position specific just to make 1 run is not the best course of action when this team is going to have so much turnover over the next few years. We need a solid core to build around and the best way to do that is with talented players regardless of position. 

While all of this is true you cannot go into 2021 with the crap they have at RB. 

If they wait past the 3rd round to draft a RB they will have flushed any chance to be competitive down the toilet.  Same is true at LT.   

Center is still an obvious need but I think they might be okay going with Finney or drafting a Center in the third or 4th.

 

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28 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

Technically no, they can roll out Banner, Dotson, Finney, DeCastro, Chuks. Definitely not ideal, but technically feasible. And the Steelers cap situation starting next year and moving forward is golden. 

Still hoping they sign Watt long term this offseason. 

They can role out that line, but it will be the worst in the league by a mile. Chucks was terrible last year. I think Banner could be an answer at RT, but he will get destroyed at LT. Finney couldn't make the Bengals. They are below .500 if that is their line. I would say 5-12. 

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4 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

While all of this is true you cannot go into 2021 with the crap they have at RB. 

If they wait past the 3rd round to draft a RB they will have flushed any chance to be competitive down the toilet.  Same is true at LT.   

Center is still an obvious need but I think they might be okay going with Finney or drafting a Center in the third or 4th.

That's possible, but definitely not a given. If they go LT and C with 2 of the first 3 picks, that could drastically improve our O-line for next year. Our line had 0 push last year, that was a big reason for the terrible running game, along with the horrible play calling. Canada should be able to do better than Fichtner because any OC would be hard pressed to do worse/be more predictable. Also, Anthony MacFarland played with Canada in college and had success. While our running game wouldn't be top 5, it could definitely be around the middle of the pack (not that it will, just that it could). 

Gus Edwards and James Robinson were top 20 backs in the league last year, and both came out of college undrafted. Taking a RB after rounds 1-3 would reduce our shot of hitting on a top talent, but it's definitely doable, and surrounding an ok RB with an excellent O-line drastically increases our chances of success and helps the QB, and is more likely to still be helping the team 5+ years from now. The average 1st round RB lasts 4.5 years before they're out of the league. First round picks have an average career length of 9.3 years. If we take a 1st round RB there's just less value there. 

If the Steelers take Harris or Etienne in the 1st I'm definitely going to groan, yell at the TV, and moan about the players drafted after 24 that turn out to be awesome. But before the season starts I'll also get fully on board, hope the FO knows what they're doing, and cheer as hard as anyone hoping that they turn into all-stars. 

The main reason I don't want to go RB in the 1st is that I think the Steelers are in rebuild mode and that Ben is only back for 1 year. The key to success for teams moving on from entrenched QBs seems to be a strong defense and strong O-line around a young QB, so I'd like us to try for that instead of trying for the RB talent to help us for 1 year. McCaffrey, Barkley, Jacobs have not lead their teams to playoff success...

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10 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

I agree they put themselves in a terrible position. It's very unlike them. Similarly, the rumor @5-ish Finkle posted about ownership demands. I expect this rubbish from poorly run franchises, but this would be extremely out of character for this one. Don't get me wrong - I'm a Browns fan. I hope youse guys make some dumb, short sighted decisions. It'd be nice for the shoe to be on the other foot for the first time in my adult life. I'm just not going to believe it until after it happens.

I don't think a full reset is needed for this team, but if they take a get this fixed by 2022 approach with the OL then whoever is under center next year can get this team back in contention. Not to say this year doesn't matter, but I think it's highly unlikely the 2021 team is a serious threat no matter what's done next week. So draft with the future in mind, sign a couple of veterans at the minimum to fill the gap, then wish Ben good luck playing behind them as they figure it out.

It was careless to get to the point where the Rooneys have to make a comment during the season about needing to fix the running game. Very much unlike how the organization is run, but it was embarrassing. 

Baltimore and Cleveland can effectively take the air out of the ball to finish a game even when the defense knows what’s coming. Pittsburgh has to keep passing till it’s time to take a knee. That’s a serious problem especially with all the WR drops in the second half of the season.

i hope you are correct and the Steelers take a fix by 2022 approach. Don’t over commit if a talented player falls in their lap at a less needy position. 

 

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11 minutes ago, steelers1080 said:

That's possible, but definitely not a given. If they go LT and C with 2 of the first 3 picks, that could drastically improve our O-line for next year. Our line had 0 push last year, that was a big reason for the terrible running game, along with the horrible play calling. Canada should be able to do better than Fichtner because any OC would be hard pressed to do worse/be more predictable. Also, Anthony MacFarland played with Canada in college and had success. While our running game wouldn't be top 5, it could definitely be around the middle of the pack (not that it will, just that it could). 

Gus Edwards and James Robinson were top 20 backs in the league last year, and both came out of college undrafted. Taking a RB after rounds 1-3 would reduce our shot of hitting on a top talent, but it's definitely doable, and surrounding an ok RB with an excellent O-line drastically increases our chances of success and helps the QB, and is more likely to still be helping the team 5+ years from now. The average 1st round RB lasts 4.5 years before they're out of the league. First round picks have an average career length of 9.3 years. If we take a 1st round RB there's just less value there. 

If the Steelers take Harris or Etienne in the 1st I'm definitely going to groan, yell at the TV, and moan about the players drafted after 24 that turn out to be awesome. But before the season starts I'll also get fully on board, hope the FO knows what they're doing, and cheer as hard as anyone hoping that they turn into all-stars. 

The main reason I don't want to go RB in the 1st is that I think the Steelers are in rebuild mode and that Ben is only back for 1 year. The key to success for teams moving on from entrenched QBs seems to be a strong defense and strong O-line around a young QB, so I'd like us to try for that instead of trying for the RB talent to help us for 1 year. McCaffrey, Barkley, Jacobs have not lead their teams to playoff success...

I can go along with this but I am not sure the Steelers need to be in a total rebuild mode.  I also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Ben back for 2022 if this season isn't a total disaster.

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Just now, Grid71 said:

It was careless to get to the point where the Rooneys have to make a comment during the season about needing to fix the running game. Very much unlike how the organization is run, but it was embarrassing. 

Baltimore and Cleveland can effectively take the air out of the ball to finish a game even when the defense knows what’s coming. Pittsburgh has to keep passing till it’s time to take a knee. That’s a serious problem especially with all the WR drops in the second half of the season.

i hope you are correct and the Steelers take a fix by 2022 approach. Don’t over commit if a talented player falls in their lap at a less needy position. 

 

After last season I don't think anyone needed the Rooney's comments to know how bad the running game was and how to defend against this offense.   

The key is to bring in the offensive coordinator with a new scheme, improve the o-line and get a true feature back.   

How well they will be able to do that is the question

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27 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I can go along with this but I am not sure the Steelers need to be in a total rebuild mode.  I also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Ben back for 2022 if this season isn't a total disaster.

Idk that it's a total rebuild through cuts, so much as it's players aging out and some players finishing existing contracts. The change from last year to this year was already significant along the O-Line. Pouncey retired, Feiler and Big Al were allowed to walk (presumably), Dupree and Conner signed elsewhere, and Nelson was cut (6 of 22 starters gone). DeCastro and Haden are 30+ and haven't been extended. I'm not a fan of Edmunds, but even if he's resigned, over the next 2 years we could be looking at:

  • 2 new CBs - Sutton plus outside and Nickel 
  • 1-2 new OLBs - Almost no depth and not sure if Highsmith is starter worthy
  • 1-2 new ILBs - Bush and a long term answer. Spillane and Vince are signed to 1 year deals. 
  • New RB - We all know they want to draft at least 1 this year
  • New QB - Ben will probably be gone within the next 2 years, doesn't appear Steelers have the answer under contract
  • 1-2 new TEs - Ebron contract ends after 2021
  • New WRs - Only Diontae and Claypool signed for 2022
  • New OL - Only Banner, Haeg, and Dotson signed for 2022

Not all of these will be draft picks, and luckily we'll have some cap space to sign value free agents, but turnover is coming unless they resign people to the team that are currently backups and not regarded as great players. 

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21 hours ago, steelers1080 said:

I like both Quinn-Meinerz and Radunz, but taking 2 guys from very small schools might be risky. 

I think they really like Quinn-Meinerz, so they would take him if Humphrey is gone, but QM was available at 55 (or in my scenario at 50 on a trade back).  There were other Big School tackles to be had there, if preferred.

IMO, the Steelers are committed to taking a RB in one of the first 3-rounds.  If they believe Harris is head and shoulders above the others, then they will take him at 24 if there.  Period.  If they are more indifferent regarding the top 3 backs, then they can trade back and get one of them if they stay within the first 35-40 picks.  If they are not too enamored with any, then they can gamble and hope to get Sermon, Hubbard, or Gainwell in the third.  But anything after that is a death knell to the offense.

I really like Harris.  The Steelers have a lot of needs though, so trading back and still landing him or Williams would be a big win.

Anybody care about my latest mock where I could not trade back?  Humphrey or QM falling to 55 is seemingly key to making a draft great, where RB was taken at 24.  I really like this one for that reason, but this one just fell very favorably overall in my view:

24. Najee Harris - RB, Alabama

55. Creed Humphrey - IOL, Oklahoma

87. Quincy Roche - EDGE, Miami

128. Kary Vincent Jr. - CB, LSU

140. Walker Little - OT, Stanford

216. Malcolm Koonce - EDGE, Buffalo

245. Tuf Borland - LB, Ohio State

254. Tyler Coyle - S, Purdue

 

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These mock drafts play mind games with expectations of what will be possible on draft night. Using the PFF mock draft simulator, traded down from 24 to 30 so the Bills could jump up for Najee Harris (might regret that later), and got pick 90. 

30. Azeez Ojulari, OLB, Georgia - Colbert and Tomlin attended pro-day, will be 21 this summer. Aligns with typical age of Steelers pick and has lots of room to grow. 

55. Quinn Meinerz, C, Wisconsin-Whitewater - Took him over Creed Humphrey by accident, but no regrets! ... maybe some regrets.

87. Jamin Davis, ILB, Kentucky - This won't happen, he's going to go much higher than this. Possibly first round. But would be awesome to pair him with Bush. 

90. Trey Sermon, RB, Ohio St - A bruiser who could help turn our run game around behind our brand new offensive line. 

128. Spencer Brown, T, Northern Iowa - Where there's smoke, there's fire. Lots of rumors about this connection. 

140. Kary Vincent Jr, CB, LSU - Could slot in immediately to take over Hilton's role. 

245. Trey Hill, IOL, Georgia - Some competition for Quinn and depth at IOL for next few years. 

254. Tre' McKitty, TE, Georgia - Was projected to be a college allstar but never materialized, possibly due to issues with the Florida State program when he arrived. Never quite produced in college, but has lots of potential. 

 

I'm not sure we'll trade down, but if one of the top 15 talents doesn't fall to 24 I sure wish we would because the next group of players is all about the same to me. Jamin Davis at 87 isn't realistic, but I just couldn't resist the value. I think the rest of the picks are actually possible. 

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Posted (edited)

Might want to move CB up the list:

Quote

 

Justin Layne was booked for speeding, driving with a suspended license and a gun violation:

The arrest happened just after 3am local time near Cleveland, Ohio.

A mugshot showed the 23-year-old in a grey shirt smiling at the camera.

Just hours before his arrest, Layne had reposted footage of him training to his Instagram story.

Layne has been a cornerback for the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2019.

He was a third round pick for the team and appeared in all 16 games last season. He has accumulated a huge 22 total tackles.  Link

 

What a dope...

Edited by Godsbrother
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  • Godsbrother changed the title to 2021 Pittsburgh Steelers - 9/24: Ben playing, Dionte OUT, Watt is GTD

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