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We changed eligibility requirements so I became eligible today.  I went online two days ago and got an appointment in about 30 seconds.  We have a local FB page for my town and there are people posting every day about how they can’t find an appointment or how they drove 50 miles to get a shot.  I think collective stupidity may be the driving factor of how slowly this is going.

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My dad has been sick for a few weeks.  My mom called me today to say he was about to die.  I said some final words to him and he could hear me but was unable to respond.  He passed a short time later.

Not to derail anything, but we had our baby last night! She's doing amazingly well. Due to the hospital's pandemic policies, I had to leave her right after my wife was released from recovery. I can't

On a positive note, my wife gave birth to our first child this morning!! We were expecting our daughter to be born in the first week of April, which does not align very well if this hospital sees a ma

4 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

“Airborne transmission is dominant,” says environmental epidemiologist Joseph Allen at Harvard University’s T. H. Chan School of Public Health in Boston, Massachusetts. That’s why building controls such as ventilation and air filtration make sense, he says.

We have made many errors in fighting the virus, but this one really gets me riled up.  People are still sanitizing surfaces to an insane degree while ignoring airborne transmission.  Our Health leaders have failed us on this and continue to do so.  

If they had said, "any activity outdoors is safe, maskless, including licking strangers on the nostrils, just don't get together with people from outside your household indoors," we would have far fewer deaths.  They still haven't stressed ventilation in any way close to what was needed. 

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43 minutes ago, worrierking said:

We have made many errors in fighting the virus, but this one really gets me riled up.  People are still sanitizing surfaces to an insane degree while ignoring airborne transmission.  Our Health leaders have failed us on this and continue to do so.  

If they had said, "any activity outdoors is safe, maskless, including licking strangers on the nostrils, just don't get together with people from outside your household indoors," we would have far fewer deaths.  They still haven't stressed ventilation in any way close to what was needed. 

The bolded, even still.

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2 hours ago, worrierking said:

We have made many errors in fighting the virus, but this one really gets me riled up.  People are still sanitizing surfaces to an insane degree while ignoring airborne transmission.  Our Health leaders have failed us on this and continue to do so.  

If they had said, "any activity outdoors is safe, maskless, including licking strangers on the nostrils, just don't get together with people from outside your household indoors," we would have far fewer deaths.  They still haven't stressed ventilation in any way close to what was needed. 

Agreed. Only I would say that increased cleaning and sanitization probably has benefited us as a whole by also reducing other virus and bacteria transmission. The number of times it’s being done is probably overkill, but I’m sure that there are a whole lot more folks out there actually following the directions of their cleaning supplies and focusing on the right surfaces for the first time ever.

I do think that the idea of better ventilation and filtration is a bit more complex than most people assume. Most places don’t have extra capacity to just crank up their system to allow more outside air or add higher levels of filtration. Making those changes would necessitate entirely new systems for many.

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I need an opinion. 
 

We are supposed to travel to my parents’ house tomorrow for a long weekend. My wife and I are vaccinated (2 weeks friday). My two young kids are not. My parents are vaccinated. My sister will be there as well on occasion. She is one week post vaccination and pregnant. 
 

Someone at my dad’s small office tested positive for covid on Monday. He got a test yesterday. No symptoms yet. No results yet.  He was in the office with her Friday. Says no close contact but whatever. 
 

I don’t know if we should still go.  I know the cdc guidelines dont require quarantine now if vaccinated but with unvaccinated kids who may be higher risk (my wife has an autoimmune thing that she has concerns one of the boys may have) I am hesitant.
 

I am also furious because I told my dad not to go to the office for 10 days. All their easter presents are there and he is just telling me at 4pm the day before we are set to leave, when this happened days ago. 

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38 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

I do think that the idea of better ventilation and filtration is a bit more complex than most people assume. Most places don’t have extra capacity to just crank up their system to allow more outside air or add higher levels of filtration. Making those changes would necessitate entirely new systems for many.

This is true. Maybe it can be like when Freon started getting phased out as a refrigerant -- most systems were grandfathered in but as systems started needing replacing, they got replaced by systems running on R410a instead of Freon. Perhaps also comparable to how SEER standards have changed over the years.

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2 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I need an opinion. 
 

We are supposed to travel to my parents’ house tomorrow for a long weekend. My wife and I are vaccinated (2 weeks friday). My two young kids are not. My parents are vaccinated. My sister will be there as well on occasion. She is one week post vaccination and pregnant. 
 

Someone at my dad’s small office tested positive for covid on Monday. He got a test yesterday. No symptoms yet. No results yet.  He was in the office with her Friday. Says no close contact but whatever. 
 

I don’t know if we should still go.  I know the cdc guidelines dont require quarantine now if vaccinated but with unvaccinated kids who may be higher risk (my wife has an autoimmune thing that she has concerns one of the boys may have) I am hesitant.
 

I am also furious because I told my dad not to go to the office for 10 days. All their easter presents are there and he is just telling me at 4pm the day before we are set to leave, when this happened days ago. 

I bet you're fine, honestly.  Normally I would be cautious, but I think you're in the clear here unless you know that your child has an immune disorder. 

#notadoctor

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2 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:

Making those changes would necessitate entirely new systems for many.

Does this really matter when we have governments and the general public willing to just shut down businesses for extended periods of time? Seems like forcing them to meet some ventilation/filtration standards is a much lesser deal than telling them to lock up.

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Just received my final Pfizer shot today. I hope y'all get vaccinated. Healthy citizens that refuse to get vaccinated are going to allow the virus to mutate, and that decision will cost lives. 

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A few weeks ago, seeing the trajectory of vaccinations being given, I was sure hospitalizations and deaths would be plummeting by now - disappointed to see it's plateaued, or risen a bit in some places.

However, it seems like in most places you need to put in at least some effort to get scheduled, and some places need a lot of effort. The people willing to put in that effort likely have high overlap with people taking the virus seriously, masking, distancing, and being careful not to get it.

So it's likely we're still vaccinating the people who are least likely to catch the virus. Until we get to a point where in most places you can just walk into your local pharmacy and get one on the spot, I'm not sure these numbers will decline much. And even that probably isn't enough, need mobile clinics going into neighborhoods, maybe people going door to door. Until then, we may not see the kinds of case, hospitalization and death declines of places like Israel. 

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14 minutes ago, themeanmachine said:

A few weeks ago, seeing the trajectory of vaccinations being given, I was sure hospitalizations and deaths would be plummeting by now - disappointed to see it's plateaued, or risen a bit in some places.

However, it seems like in most places you need to put in at least some effort to get scheduled, and some places need a lot of effort. The people willing to put in that effort likely have high overlap with people taking the virus seriously, masking, distancing, and being careful not to get it.

So it's likely we're still vaccinating the people who are least likely to catch the virus. Until we get to a point where in most places you can just walk into your local pharmacy and get one on the spot, I'm not sure these numbers will decline much. And even that probably isn't enough, need mobile clinics going into neighborhoods, maybe people going door to door. Until then, we may not see the kinds of case, hospitalization and death declines of places like Israel. 

I mean there is some self selection going on.  People that are the most cautious and scared are more likely to be seeking out the vax, while there are also income and internet access issues that impact people's ability to seek and obtain it.  

So yeah, I mean this was more or less predicted, it's why there was a push at times to go into underserved zip codes and get the word out.  

Short of making it compulsory, this is the new reality.  A slow, but steady decline of a plateau that looks more or less like May 2020.  Basically putting this in a bad flu territory for hospital bed use.  The flip side of this is looking like Brazil, which is easily where this thing was headed.  

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No update on my dad’s results yet. 
 

But I did learn that the source of the infection (husband of the woman at my dad’s office) had received the Pfizer vaccine on March 15. He probably went around thinking he was bulletproof (he is the type) and caught it.
 

Lots of virus out there still and while these vaccines are amazing, they are not 100% and there are vulnerable people. Get the shot. Wear a mask. And let’s open up when these cases are below 10k and vaccines are prevalent. 

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1 hour ago, themeanmachine said:

So it's likely we're still vaccinating the people who are least likely to catch the virus. Until we get to a point where in most places you can just walk into your local pharmacy and get one on the spot, I'm not sure these numbers will decline much. And even that probably isn't enough, need mobile clinics going into neighborhoods, maybe people going door to door.

Some of this is just getting started in New Orleans. In the end, by the end of 2022 (yes, next year), I would bet that around 1 out of 3 New Orleanians will have gotten the vaccine by either a mobile clinic in their immediate neighborhood or else a house call.

EDIT: Some local articles about this topic,

The city's strategy for vaccinating New Orleans' most vulnerable? Knocking on their doors. (The Times-Picayune/New Orleans Advocate, 3/22/2021)

COVID vaccine disparity in New Orleans: Why inoculations are lagging in poor, Black neighborhoods (The Times-Picayune/New Orleans Advocate, 3/27/2021)

 

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It was mentioned in passing on the previous page, but anyone with any clue on what's up with Michigan?  Cases up over 300%, hospitalizations up over 150% in the last month.  Some other states (mainly mid-Atlantic and Great Lakes) have seen cases and hospitalizations up a bit over the past few weeks, but MI seems to be on its own weird spike, out of family with everywhere else.

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I also think that at some point fairly soon, the J&J vaccine (and any other one-&-done vaccine) needs to become the most readily-available vaccine. When it's hard to get to a certain cohort of people ... that one opportunity to confer immunity might be all you've got. Vaccines like Moderna and Pfizer -- IF they can't be reformulated into one-and-done -- need to be shunted towards institutional use (hospitals, military, pediatrics, geriatrics, etc.). But for that one sweet day when you can walk into any one of 25,000 pharmacies, clinic, etc. and get a COVID vaccine on demand -- that's going to have to be a one-and-done shot.

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12 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I also think that at some point fairly soon, the J&J vaccine (and any other one-&-done vaccine) needs to become the most readily-available vaccine.

If they keep jacking up 15 million doses at a time, that's going to be difficult.

Small, small move forward on the air scrubber front. We've had two major school districts approach us for rentals of units. One has signed up and I'm pretty confident the other won't be far behind. Can't say it enough, there should be an air scrubber in every school room in every school. No reason not to with the cost of these things today. We literally throw money at stuff I couldn't dream even existed but can't make this a priority? Makes no sense to me.

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1 hour ago, beer 30 said:
1 hour ago, Doug B said:

I also think that at some point fairly soon, the J&J vaccine (and any other one-&-done vaccine) needs to become the most readily-available vaccine.

If they keep jacking up 15 million doses at a time, that's going to be difficult.

I'll Google it ... but what happened? J&J had a recent manufacturing issue?

EDIT: NYT link

Quote

 

Factory Mix-Up Ruins Up to 15 Million Vaccine Doses From Johnson & Johnson

A manufacturing subcontractor in Baltimore mixed ingredients from the coronavirus vaccines of Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca, delaying U.S. shipments of the “one-and-done” shot.

 

Sucks, but you gotta carry on. Can't just wallow in the mishap -- forget that ish like a good cornerback forgets giving up that 60-yard TD.

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59 minutes ago, beer 30 said:

Small, small move forward on the air scrubber front. We've had two major school districts approach us for rentals of units. One has signed up and I'm pretty confident the other won't be far behind. Can't say it enough, there should be an air scrubber in every school room in every school. No reason not to with the cost of these things today. We literally throw money at stuff I couldn't dream even existed but can't make this a priority? Makes no sense to me.

The part in red: quoted for truth.

I know through my work that area hospitals were setting up temporary COVID rooms with air scrubbers just south of $1,000 apiece. School systems should skip Promethean whiteboards and fluff like that and buy air scrubbers in bulk. File for some grants, work the corners like Gregg Maddux, and get those scrubbers down to maybe $500-700 a pop.

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1 hour ago, beer 30 said:

If they keep jacking up 15 million doses at a time, that's going to be difficult.

Small, small move forward on the air scrubber front. We've had two major school districts approach us for rentals of units. One has signed up and I'm pretty confident the other won't be far behind. Can't say it enough, there should be an air scrubber in every school room in every school. No reason not to with the cost of these things today. We literally throw money at stuff I couldn't dream even existed but can't make this a priority? Makes no sense to me.

When you say air scrubber is that a hepa unit or some other technology like ionizers?

 

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16 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I'll Google it ... but what happened? J&J had a recent manufacturing issue?

EDIT: NYT link

Sucks, but you gotta carry on. Can't just wallow in the mishap -- forget that ish like a good cornerback forgets giving up that 60-yard TD.

Technically that plant hasn't been approved yet but yet still sucks

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1 hour ago, Dr_Zaius said:

It was mentioned in passing on the previous page, but anyone with any clue on what's up with Michigan?  Cases up over 300%, hospitalizations up over 150% in the last month.  Some other states (mainly mid-Atlantic and Great Lakes) have seen cases and hospitalizations up a bit over the past few weeks, but MI seems to be on its own weird spike, out of family with everywhere else.

A state with lots of anti-vax people who think the virus is fake?

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1 hour ago, Doug B said:

I also think that at some point fairly soon, the J&J vaccine (and any other one-&-done vaccine) needs to become the most readily-available vaccine. When it's hard to get to a certain cohort of people ... that one opportunity to confer immunity might be all you've got. Vaccines like Moderna and Pfizer -- IF they can't be reformulated into one-and-done -- need to be shunted towards institutional use (hospitals, military, pediatrics, geriatrics, etc.). But for that one sweet day when you can walk into any one of 25,000 pharmacies, clinic, etc. and get a COVID vaccine on demand -- that's going to have to be a one-and-done shot.

True.   This will allow for targeted efforts to vaccinate tough-to-reach subsets of the population.

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1 minute ago, Alex P Keaton said:

True.   This will allow for targeted efforts to vaccinate tough-to-reach subsets of the population.

Many of those subsets are wary of the J&J vaccine.  "Why are we getting the proven least effective vaccine?"

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34 minutes ago, Doug B said:

The part in red: quoted for truth.

I know through my work that area hospitals were setting up temporary COVID rooms with air scrubbers just south of $1,000 apiece. School systems should skip Promethean whiteboards and fluff like that and buy air scrubbers in bulk. File for some grants, work the corners like Gregg Maddux, and get those scrubbers down to maybe $500-700 a pop.

 

24 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

When you say air scrubber is that a hepa unit or some other technology like ionizers?

HEPA. The other technologies are helpful and all have their plus's & minus's but HEPA is a great, cheap place to start AND will help with all the other sniffles/colds/flu down the road.

These are the cheap units we buy and not bragging but we know our ####. On Amazon they are listed for $270/ea. A school system placing a large order could probably get them down to $200-$225. Absolutely no reason for these not to be everywhere.

https://www.amazon.com/Medify-Medical-Air-Purifier-Particle/dp/B07LGDYV3C

Edit to add, posted the wrong link. The MA-40 is their medium sized unit. The MA-112 is what we are putting in schools. Little more money but again, with a large purchase, these guys are very flexible and willing to deal. And if they don't want to buy...I know a guy who rents them...

https://www.amazon.com/Medify-Air-Purifier-Coverage-Allergies/dp/B07LFJMS2S

Edited by beer 30
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2 hours ago, Dr_Zaius said:

It was mentioned in passing on the previous page, but anyone with any clue on what's up with Michigan?  Cases up over 300%, hospitalizations up over 150% in the last month.  Some other states (mainly mid-Atlantic and Great Lakes) have seen cases and hospitalizations up a bit over the past few weeks, but MI seems to be on its own weird spike, out of family with everywhere else.

I don't know why Michigan is having it rough, but Ontario is right next door and they are having a major issue. Maybe some connection.

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2 minutes ago, Judge Smails said:

Many of those subsets are wary of the J&J vaccine.  "Why are we getting the proven least effective vaccine?"

Right.  I have been buying the whole get the first vaccine available because the trials were done at different times and the variants weren't around back when Pfizer/Moderna were testing, but it's getting harder to justify when Pfizer just released they are 91% effective against the SA variant, where J&J was only something like 57% effective on that variant.  Yes, I get it that it was still 100% good in preventing death and hospitalization from covid, maybe that's a good enough outcome and we should all accept that.  I don't know....just saying I think it's fair to reevaluate now that in head to head trials the pfizer vax really outshined the J&J one.  I can totally see why people in historically mistreated communities might think they are being given the scraps if it's mostly J&J.

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Just now, beer 30 said:

 

HEPA. The other technologies are helpful and all have their plus's & minus's but HEPA is a great, cheap place to start AND will help with all the other sniffles/colds/flu down the road.

These are the cheap units we buy and not bragging but we know our ####. On Amazon they are listed for $270/ea. A school system placing a large order could probably get them down to $200-$225. Absolutely no reason for these not to be everywhere.

https://www.amazon.com/Medify-Medical-Air-Purifier-Particle/dp/B07LGDYV3C

The other technologies are nowhere near as good. 

I agree that it is absurd that there isnt more of a focus on this. 

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22 minutes ago, beer 30 said:

HEPA. The other technologies are helpful and all have their plus's & minus's but HEPA is a great, cheap place to start AND will help with all the other sniffles/colds/flu down the road.

These are the cheap units we buy and not bragging but we know our ####. On Amazon they are listed for $270/ea. A school system placing a large order could probably get them down to $200-$225. Absolutely no reason for these not to be everywhere.

The part in red is just about as important as curtailing COVID, at least in the long run.

...

I didn't realize there were decent units quite that cheap - even better. Basically a school system can get 6 to 10 of those for the cost of one Promethean board. How are the $270 scrubbers for ambient noise -- reasonably quiet?

EDIT: Answered my own question about the noise level of the inexpensive scrubbers using your Amazon link. In the "Customer questions & answers" section:

Quote

Question: my concern is quite [sic] operation. what is the sound noise level in DBA when operating?

Answer: I find this unit noise compared to the MA25. This thing really needs a 4th speed. my results 3 feet away. Speed 1 - 35db, Speed 2 - 44db, speed 3 - 48db.


Those decibel levels are pretty good. A typical household refrigerator is ~55 decibels. Normal conversation is around 60-70 decibels.

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2 hours ago, Dr_Zaius said:

It was mentioned in passing on the previous page, but anyone with any clue on what's up with Michigan?  Cases up over 300%, hospitalizations up over 150% in the last month.  Some other states (mainly mid-Atlantic and Great Lakes) have seen cases and hospitalizations up a bit over the past few weeks, but MI seems to be on its own weird spike, out of family with everywhere else.

Because from my understanding, the UK variant is more prevelant now, it's way more contagious, so it's spreading faster.

IBT omg fear mongering 

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13 minutes ago, Doug B said:

The part in red is just about as important as curtailing COVID, at least in the long run.

...

I didn't realize there were decent units quite that cheap - even better. Basically a school system can get 6 to 10 of those for the cost of one Promethean board. How are the $270 scrubbers for ambient noise -- reasonably quiet?

The MA-40 at max is 66dBA, the MA-112 at max is about the same so you will notice both but no more than you would a loud conversation. They become ambient noise because it is a constant hum. In a classroom that is typically noisy anyhow I don't know that you even know it's on. I've said that before, on anything other than max you wouldn't know these things are on. Quality Chinese manufacturing :thumbup:

https://pulsarinstruments.com/storage/app/media/uploaded-files/Know your noise - decibel chart.jpg

14 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

The other technologies are nowhere near as good. 

I agree that it is absurd that there isnt more of a focus on this. 

Yea I was trying to be politically correct in case someone was invested in the other technologies :) UV light is the best and done correctly with HEPA, kills everything. The rest of them, well I'm skeptical of the efficacy but it's very difficult to prove or disprove so you have people promoting everything.

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1 hour ago, Alex P Keaton said:

A state with lots of anti-vax people who think the virus is fake?

Is Michigan home to a bunch of ant-vaxers?  I've only been there twice, can't confirm or deny.  I was also under the impression they've been on the stricter side as far as control measures, but I don't live there so someone can feel free to contradict me.

1 hour ago, worrierking said:

I don't know why Michigan is having it rough, but Ontario is right next door and they are having a major issue. Maybe some connection.

Maybe.  There's definitely been an uptick in in that general region, but Michigan seems to be in a class by themselves.  Oakland county has cases up 70%+ in a week.  There are other counties that are up almost as much, although other ones are doing pretty much fine (UP in general, for example).  Their total vaccinations seems to be similar to other states around them, although I didn't look at the county breakdown.

1 hour ago, belljr said:

Because from my understanding, the UK variant is more prevelant now, it's way more contagious, so it's spreading faster.

IBT omg fear mongering 

It's possible.  I'm assume somewhere on the CDC there is a place where they are tracking variants.  I thought Florida had the most variants, but I could just be remembering wrong.

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36 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Yeah

 

3 minutes ago, belljr said:

Did you miss the free michigan protests?

Just seems like this is the goto always. Red state= blame the governor, blue state= blame a small subset of MAGA people. Just lazy analysis.  

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2 minutes ago, jobarules said:

 

Just seems like this is the goto always. Red state= blame the governor, blue state= blame a small subset of MAGA people. Just lazy analysis.  

Wut? Blaming governors for antivaxxers?

 

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3 hours ago, Dr_Zaius said:

It was mentioned in passing on the previous page, but anyone with any clue on what's up with Michigan?  Cases up over 300%, hospitalizations up over 150% in the last month.  Some other states (mainly mid-Atlantic and Great Lakes) have seen cases and hospitalizations up a bit over the past few weeks, but MI seems to be on its own weird spike, out of family with everywhere else.

I'm in Michigan.  My guess, the combination of the weather starting to warm up, we recently increased restaurant occupancy rates and relieved some restrictions, and we have a lot of anti-vax, anti-mask, don't tread on me types.

This is completely irresponsible speculation of course, but those are all potential contributing factors.

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20 minutes ago, jobarules said:

 

Just seems like this is the goto always. Red state= blame the governor, blue state= blame a small subset of MAGA people. Just lazy analysis.  

It’s not lazy analysis.  There is extensive data out there showing which subset of folks don’t want a vaccine, think this is all fake, etc etc etc.

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36 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

It’s not lazy analysis.  There is extensive data out there showing which subset of folks don’t want a vaccine, think this is all fake, etc etc etc.

I didn't get the same crack analysis when I said why New Jersey was rising

 

 

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1 hour ago, beer 30 said:

Yea I was trying to be politically correct in case someone was invested in the other technologies :) UV light is the best and done correctly with HEPA, kills everything.

Several of our local hospitals have also invested in UV systems tucked away in their ductwork.

Thinking back to @GroveDiesel's recent post about the expense of replacing an entire HVAC system ... seems like schools using a combo of bulk-purchased air scrubbers plus strategically-placed UV in the ductwork can be an affordable solution.

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19 minutes ago, Mene said:

I'm in Michigan.  My guess, the combination of the weather starting to warm up, we recently increased restaurant occupancy rates and relieved some restrictions, and we have a lot of anti-vax, anti-mask, don't tread on me types.

This is completely irresponsible speculation of course, but those are all potential contributing factors.

That all seems reasonable.  A lot of my family across the pond in Wisconsin is opening things up too quickly, as you describe.  Very similar to Michigan.

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2 hours ago, beer 30 said:

 

HEPA. The other technologies are helpful and all have their plus's & minus's but HEPA is a great, cheap place to start AND will help with all the other sniffles/colds/flu down the road.

These are the cheap units we buy and not bragging but we know our ####. On Amazon they are listed for $270/ea. A school system placing a large order could probably get them down to $200-$225. Absolutely no reason for these not to be everywhere.

https://www.amazon.com/Medify-Medical-Air-Purifier-Particle/dp/B07LGDYV3C

Edit to add, posted the wrong link. The MA-40 is their medium sized unit. The MA-112 is what we are putting in schools. Little more money but again, with a large purchase, these guys are very flexible and willing to deal. And if they don't want to buy...I know a guy who rents them...

https://www.amazon.com/Medify-Air-Purifier-Coverage-Allergies/dp/B07LFJMS2S

How would a unit that covers 2,400 SF work in a school? Classrooms are probably in the range of 600-1,200SF typically, but they don’t really share ventilation very well. You can’t setup a HEPA scrubber in one room or a hallway and expect it to clean the air in adjacent rooms. So if you’re using individual units, you’d need to put one in every single classroom. I also notice that the square footage the units claim to clean is listed as every half hour. Typically you want 3-4+ air changes an hour which means that these individual units aren’t really filtering air at the same rate as the HVAC system is.
 

And I don’t think they would cover a space like a gym very well no matter how many units you put in there.

Depending on the unit, replacement filters would run $50-100 a piece and need to be replaced at LEAST twice a year.

Add in electricity costs and the total costs for using individual HEPA units starts to climb pretty quickly. 

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50 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Several of our local hospitals have also invested in UV systems tucked away in their ductwork.

Thinking back to @GroveDiesel's recent post about the expense of replacing an entire HVAC system ... seems like schools using a combo of bulk-purchased air scrubbers plus strategically-placed UV in the ductwork can be an affordable solution.

UV is tough too. With typical airflow rates in HVAC systems, you have to have REALLY powerful UVC systems to actually sterilize the air. UVC takes time to sterilize depending on how powerful it is. If you have proper airflow rates, it’s likely that the air isn’t being exposed to UVC for long enough to actually sterilize it.

The dangers of having systems that are actually powerful enough to sterilize the air in an HVAC system are that they a) use a lot of power, b) the HVAC systems typically weren’t designed to run optimally with those things added in and c) they are incredibly dangerous if anyone is inadvertently exposed.

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20 hours ago, Alex P Keaton said:

That all seems reasonable.  A lot of my family across the pond in Wisconsin is opening things up too quickly, as you describe.  Very similar to Michigan.

Yeah, but WI has a 7 day flat-line trend. 

ETA: Also Michigan has 2500 people hospitalized for covid. WI has 239. MI is less than twice the population and ten times as many in the hospital. 

Edited by parasaurolophus
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20 hours ago, Doug B said:

Several of our local hospitals have also invested in UV systems tucked away in their ductwork.

Thinking back to @GroveDiesel's recent post about the expense of replacing an entire HVAC system ... seems like schools using a combo of bulk-purchased air scrubbers plus strategically-placed UV in the ductwork can be an affordable solution.

It can be if done right but it's government so it probably won't be.

19 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:

How would a unit that covers 2,400 SF work in a school? Classrooms are probably in the range of 600-1,200SF typically, but they don’t really share ventilation very well. You can’t setup a HEPA scrubber in one room or a hallway and expect it to clean the air in adjacent rooms. So if you’re using individual units, you’d need to put one in every single classroom. I also notice that the square footage the units claim to clean is listed as every half hour. Typically you want 3-4+ air changes an hour which means that these individual units aren’t really filtering air at the same rate as the HVAC system is.
 

And I don’t think they would cover a space like a gym very well no matter how many units you put in there.

Depending on the unit, replacement filters would run $50-100 a piece and need to be replaced at LEAST twice a year.

Add in electricity costs and the total costs for using individual HEPA units starts to climb pretty quickly. 

We are approaching these rentals as one for each classroom so 400-500 units deals. It's not perfect but it's better than what they are doing today for air quality which is pretty much nada. Aside from redoing the entire HVAC system which we know isn't going to happen, this is a simple, cheap, low cost option to address the issue.

I wouldn't recommend this for a gym, we have much bigger units for that if required. These small units are rated for 3000 hrs before a filter change out. Assuming they run 24x5, that's 120hrs a week or roughly 4 months before we need to do a change out. We can handle multiple ways, we can offer a service plan where we would go in and do it for the school system or you can rely on your own maintenance folks to handle. Replacement filters are about $150/pr for the large units. Again, not ideal but what's the cost of reworking an entire HVAC system & how long will that take given the increased demand and the pending tidal wave of R22 replacement that is going to further tax HVAC companies. Lotta money to be made for you guys in the next 10 years.

19 hours ago, GroveDiesel said:

UV is tough too. With typical airflow rates in HVAC systems, you have to have REALLY powerful UVC systems to actually sterilize the air. UVC takes time to sterilize depending on how powerful it is. If you have proper airflow rates, it’s likely that the air isn’t being exposed to UVC for long enough to actually sterilize it.

The dangers of having systems that are actually powerful enough to sterilize the air in an HVAC system are that they a) use a lot of power, b) the HVAC systems typically weren’t designed to run optimally with those things added in and c) they are incredibly dangerous if anyone is inadvertently exposed.

Yes, optimum UV killing is accomplished at about 400cfm allowing the proper amount of "dwell time" under the lights. In lieu of that, you just have to expose the air to the light more often to kill a little bit more after every pass through. All good points and something that isn't easy to overcome with existing systems.

We do have scrubbers with combo HEPA/UV that we recommend but they are more costly than the cheaper HEPA only units discussed above. Typically hospitals are the ones using them right now but some government agencies have adopted them as well. We're introducing a cheaper version that will help but still about 2 times as expensive as the large HEPA we have been talking about.

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56 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Yeah, but WI has a 7 day flat-line trend. 

ETA: Also Michigan has 2500 people hospitalized for covid. WI has 239. MI is less than twice the population and ten times as many in the hospital. 

Wow.  That is just weird.

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22 hours ago, Mene said:

I'm in Michigan.  My guess, the combination of the weather starting to warm up, we recently increased restaurant occupancy rates and relieved some restrictions, and we have a lot of anti-vax, anti-mask, don't tread on me types.

This is completely irresponsible speculation of course, but those are all potential contributing factors.

You’re correct.  

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