*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (14 Viewers)

ignatiusjreilly said:

Question for the vaxxed folk here: How much are you changing your behaviors as a result of the past week's news, and this latest CDC report in particular? I had never really stopped indoor masking, so tightening it up a little isn't a big deal. And my wife and I already decided that we won't do indoor dining with our unvaccinated children for the foreseeable future (we may if it's just the two of us, although I think we'll default to outdoor if we can).

The big question I'm wondering about is being in crowds. I recently started a new job where a big part of it is getting out in the community to network/schmooze. There's an event next week that I'd really like to go to, but I'm having second thoughts as to whether it's worth it.

The other thing I'm concerned about is my mother-in-law, who is a senior citizen, a cancer survivor and a Covid widow. That drove so much of our behavior until she was vaccinated, but now I'm wondering if we once again need to factor her safety into our plans (we typically see her once a week).

Don't have any answers, but I'm just curious how others are processing this info.

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Not changing anything unless forced to.  It's more an annoyance than anything to see the anti-vax mob wreck the economy and put the recovery plans in doubt.  

My kids were planning on going maskless in school and this is likely to change course and be required.  This is the biggest change, but that was forced (though not official quite yet)

I have zero fear of catching covid with a vax on board.  There's nothing at all to suggest I should even in these leaked slides.  

My entire family on both sides is vax so I have no worry for them or for seeing them either.  

ignatiusjreilly said:

Question for the vaxxed folk here: How much are you changing your behaviors as a result of the past week's news, and this latest CDC report in particular? I had never really stopped indoor masking, so tightening it up a little isn't a big deal. And my wife and I already decided that we won't do indoor dining with our unvaccinated children for the foreseeable future (we may if it's just the two of us, although I think we'll default to outdoor if we can).

The big question I'm wondering about is being in crowds. I recently started a new job where a big part of it is getting out in the community to network/schmooze. There's an event next week that I'd really like to go to, but I'm having second thoughts as to whether it's worth it.

The other thing I'm concerned about is my mother-in-law, who is a senior citizen, a cancer survivor and a Covid widow. That drove so much of our behavior until she was vaccinated, but now I'm wondering if we once again need to factor her safety into our plans (we typically see her once a week).

Don't have any answers, but I'm just curious how others are processing this info.

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I never stopped wearing masks indoors, mainly because of Delta.  They only dropped the mask mandate here at the end of June, so Delta was already a thing.  I will NEVER understand the resistance to wearing masks.  It's so not a big deal.  Wife and I had recently started indoor dining, however. 

Now that more info on Delta is coming out, I'm not dropping masks anytime soon and indoor dining is getting very close to being dropped off my list of things I do.    

I got the J&J vaccine and I am going to be asking my doctor his thoughts on us getting a booster of either Moderna or Pfizer.  Hell, I'd get both shots at this point.  Load me up with all the vaccines.  

culdeus said:

Not changing anything unless forced to.  It's more an annoyance than anything to see the anti-vax mob wreck the economy and put the recovery plans in doubt.  

My kids were planning on going maskless in school and this is likely to change course and be required.  This is the biggest change, but that was forced (though not official quite yet)

I have zero fear of catching covid with a vax on board.  There's nothing at all to suggest I should even in these leaked slides.  

My entire family on both sides is vax so I have no worry for them or for seeing them either.  

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You're not worrying about getting Covid, or you're not worried about what happens if you do get it? If it's the latter, I mostly agree in terms of me, my wife and my kids (but maybe I'm a little more nervous for my MIL). I guess my issue is that I had mostly decided post-vax that I wasn't going to limit my activities, and that's what I'm reconsidering now. The fact that Covid won't kill me or put me in the hospital is a huge load off my mind, but I'd still rather not get it. The question is, what, if anything, am I willing to give up in order to lessen the risk of that happening? If it's just a matter of masking more frequently, that's a no-brainer. But if it means not going out in crowds for awhile ... man, I don't know.

ignatiusjreilly said:

You're not worrying about getting Covid, or you're not worried about what happens if you do get it? If it's the latter, I mostly agree in terms of me, my wife and my kids (but maybe I'm a little more nervous for my MIL). I guess my issue is that I had mostly decided post-vax that I wasn't going to limit my activities, and that's what I'm reconsidering now. The fact that Covid won't kill me or put me in the hospital is a huge load off my mind, but I'd still rather not get it. The question is, what, if anything, am I willing to give up in order to lessen the risk of that happening? If it's just a matter of masking more frequently, that's a no-brainer. But if it means not going out in crowds for awhile ... man, I don't know.

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No I don't care if I get it now, I figure it's inevitable at this point.  There doesn't seem to be any risk of long vax covid or anything.

ignatiusjreilly said:

Question for the vaxxed folk here: How much are you changing your behaviors as a result of the past week's news, and this latest CDC report in particular? I had never really stopped indoor masking, so tightening it up a little isn't a big deal. And my wife and I already decided that we won't do indoor dining ...

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Exactly here with you, except both our kids are vaccinated, too (18 and 14).

For a few weeks in May-June, I was less-responsible with my indoor masking. Like I'd run into the local Chinese take-out place to pick up an order sans mask. And I forgot to have a mask on hand a few times, too. Just hurried up and took care of business.

In recent weeks, though? Back to pre-vaccine protocols for our family. Consistent indoor masking when not at home or office. No indoor dining.

ignatiusjreilly said:

Question for the vaxxed folk here: How much are you changing your behaviors as a result of the past week's news, and this latest CDC report in particular? I had never really stopped indoor masking, so tightening it up a little isn't a big deal. And my wife and I already decided that we won't do indoor dining with our unvaccinated children for the foreseeable future (we may if it's just the two of us, although I think we'll default to outdoor if we can).

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During the pandemic, I stayed home except for work and the occasional trip to the store.  I wore a mask 100% of the time when indoors and not in my own home or private office.  I went well over a year without eating in restaurant, attending a face-to-face meeting with more than two people, getting on a plane, etc.  I got vaccinated at 8:00 am on the very first day I was eligible.  Just stating all that for context -- I was a consistent covid hawk from February 2020 up until about April-ish of 2021.  

After vaccination, I made a deliberate effort to run errands without a mask just to get used to it, and just generally being out and about and around other people.  It was a little weird at first, but I figured it was something that I needed to get over.  It only took about two days before everything snapped back into place.  

My life today is basically exactly the same as pre-pandemic life.  Haven't work a mask in over a month I think, attending meetings at work as normal, talking to people in the hallways, etc.  

I have a ton of travel coming up: Greece in September, New Mexico in October, Portland in early November, and New Orleans for Thanksgiving.  I'm worried about covid-19 possibly affecting my Greece trip, but I'm not particularly concerned about any domestic travel at this point, with the caveat that the same seasonal factors that gave us a fall surge in 2020 could easily lead to a similar surge this year.  But the vaccine makes those worries pretty distant right now.  I'm much more concerned about things being closed down than I am about getting ill.    

IvanKaramazov said:

During the pandemic, I stayed home except for work and the occasional trip to the store.  I wore a mask 100% of the time when indoors and not in my own home or private office.  I went well over a year without eating in restaurant, attending a face-to-face meeting with more than two people, getting on a plane, etc.  I got vaccinated at 8:00 am on the very first day I was eligible.  Just stating all that for context -- I was a consistent covid hawk from February 2020 up until about April-ish of 2021.  

After vaccination, I made a deliberate effort to run errands without a mask just to get used to it, and just generally being out and about and around other people.  It was a little weird at first, but I figured it was something that I needed to get over.  It only took about two days before everything snapped back into place.  

My life today is basically exactly the same as pre-pandemic life.  Haven't work a mask in over a month I think, attending meetings at work as normal, talking to people in the hallways, etc.  

I have a ton of travel coming up: Greece in September, New Mexico in October, Portland in early November, and New Orleans for Thanksgiving.  I'm worried about covid-19 possibly affecting my Greece trip, but I'm not particularly concerned about any domestic travel at this point, with the caveat that the same seasonal factors that gave us a fall surge in 2020 could easily lead to a similar surge this year.  But the vaccine makes those worries pretty distant right now.  I'm much more concerned about things being closed down than I am about getting ill.    

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Thanks, appreciate the perspective. Having come down with a bad cold right before leaving on a vacation last month, one piece of advice I would offer is to be pretty careful the week or two before you travel, because whatever the physical risk to you, testing positive has the potential to completely screw up your plans. I got tested a few days before I left, just to be sure my cold wasn't anything worse, and as I was standing in line there was a part of my brain that was almost Trump-like in thinking, "Walk away! If you don't get tested, you don't have to know if you're positive and you won't have to cancel the trip." (I ignored that voice and got my test, which turned out to be negative.)

ignatiusjreilly said:

Question for the vaxxed folk here: How much are you changing your behaviors as a result of the past week's news, and this latest CDC report in particular? I had never really stopped indoor masking, so tightening it up a little isn't a big deal. And my wife and I already decided that we won't do indoor dining with our unvaccinated children for the foreseeable future (we may if it's just the two of us, although I think we'll default to outdoor if we can).

The big question I'm wondering about is being in crowds. I recently started a new job where a big part of it is getting out in the community to network/schmooze. There's an event next week that I'd really like to go to, but I'm having second thoughts as to whether it's worth it.

The other thing I'm concerned about is my mother-in-law, who is a senior citizen, a cancer survivor and a Covid widow. That drove so much of our behavior until she was vaccinated, but now I'm wondering if we once again need to factor her safety into our plans (we typically see her once a week).

Don't have any answers, but I'm just curious how others are processing this info.

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I was done masking in most stores and had started dining indoors for work.   I'm done doing that now.

Scoresman said:

I never stopped wearing masks indoors, mainly because of Delta.  They only dropped the mask mandate here at the end of June, so Delta was already a thing.  I will NEVER understand the resistance to wearing masks.  It's so not a big deal.  Wife and I had recently started indoor dining, however. 

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I don't understand the inconsistency inherent in this paragraph.  You were masking indoors -- and eating indoors.  Were you eating food through a mask?   

Alex P Keaton said:

I don't understand the inconsistency inherent in this paragraph.  You were masking indoors -- and eating indoors.  Were you eating food through a mask?   

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This is has been a consistent inconsistency and will be studied for ages.  How people can and did convince themselves that masks are required, but not when eating inside.  The main explanation I have is that people simply don't know how to cook, and hate takeout enchiladas.  

ignatiusjreilly said:

Question for the vaxxed folk here: How much are you changing your behaviors as a result of the past week's news, and this latest CDC report in particular? I had never really stopped indoor masking, so tightening it up a little isn't a big deal. And my wife and I already decided that we won't do indoor dining with our unvaccinated children for the foreseeable future (we may if it's just the two of us, although I think we'll default to outdoor if we can).

The big question I'm wondering about is being in crowds. I recently started a new job where a big part of it is getting out in the community to network/schmooze. There's an event next week that I'd really like to go to, but I'm having second thoughts as to whether it's worth it.

The other thing I'm concerned about is my mother-in-law, who is a senior citizen, a cancer survivor and a Covid widow. That drove so much of our behavior until she was vaccinated, but now I'm wondering if we once again need to factor her safety into our plans (we typically see her once a week).

Don't have any answers, but I'm just curious how others are processing this info.

Click to expand...

I'm not really changing any behavior.  This disease will be with us permanently, it will never go away.  We will all get it at some point, vaccinated or not. If vaccinated, in the vast majority of cases it's like getting a cold, and life can't stop for that. If I had little kids at home, or family members in a high risk category, I would be more cautious. But I don't fall into any of those categories.

Fully Vaxxed since mid Feb. 

Have traveled extensively. 

Was not masking indoors except in certain situations or when required 

Was going to bars, dining out, buying concert tickets... living 99% normal life. 

Now: I feel less safe... limited protection against getting COVID (maybe coinflip?) but still reasonably confident it wouldn't be too bad despite some risk factors, thanks to the Vax. 
 

My new plans:

Masking indoors 

Limiting indoor dining to less crowded, more open air environments. 

Evaluating events like concerts on a case by case basis. For example: Considering selling my Black Keys tickets for Lyric in Oxford, MS because 800 people jammed in a club on a college campus is high risk. Considering keeping my Gary Clark Jr tickets because 4th row aisle in a huge, high ceiling theater feels safer. 

Restocking certain supplies including masks in the event this takes another twist for the worse and this warrants a full lockdown again. 

themeanmachine said:

I'm not really changing any behavior.  This disease will be with us permanently, it will never go away.  We will all get it at some point, vaccinated or not. If vaccinated, in the vast majority of cases it's like getting a cold, and life can't stop for that. If I had little kids at home, or family members in a high risk category, I would be more cautious. But I don't fall into any of those categories.

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The problem is herd immunity is off the table so the mindset of "all getting it at some point" loses some of its edge. 

themeanmachine said:

I'm not really changing any behavior.  This disease will be with us permanently, it will never go away.  We will all get it at some point, vaccinated or not. If vaccinated, in the vast majority of cases it's like getting a cold, and life can't stop for that. If I had little kids at home, or family members in a high risk category, I would be more cautious. But I don't fall into any of those categories.

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This 

culdeus said:

This is has been a consistent inconsistency and will be studied for ages.  How people can and did convince themselves that masks are required, but not when eating inside.

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Not all "indoor dining" is alike.

Some places have spacious dining rooms with high ceilings, and have removed half the tables so that parties are sitting far apart from each other. On top of that, diners can make the choice to come at off-peak times so that they virtually have the restaurant to themselves.

Some places ... aren't like that at all. It's going to be many moons before I eat in, say, a hole-in-the-wall cave of a dive bar. Especially, if "Dangit, the AC is broken again!".

Alex P Keaton said:

I don't understand the inconsistency inherent in this paragraph.  You were masking indoors -- and eating indoors.  Were you eating food through a mask?   

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I get what @Scoresman is saying here. Yeah, it's a contradiction, but we've all done contradictory stuff over the past year.

Also, I look at it this way: In general, people want to wear a mask when they're indoors with strangers. But that's clearly not an option at a restaurant, so they're willing to take on a little more risk in exchange for a pleasurable activity. It's not actually all that contradictory if you think in terms of relative risk rather than absolutes. 

[icon] said:

Fully Vaxxed since mid Feb. 

Have traveled extensively. 

Was not masking indoors except in certain situations or when required 

Was going to bars, dining out, buying concert tickets... living 99% normal life. 

Now: I feel less safe... limited protection against getting COVID (maybe coinflip?) but still reasonably confident it wouldn't be too bad despite some risk factors, thanks to the Vax. 
 

My new plans:

Masking indoors 

Limiting indoor dining to less crowded, more open air environments. 

Evaluating events like concerts on a case by case basis. For example: Considering selling my Black Keys tickets for Lyric in Oxford, MS because 800 people jammed in a club on a college campus is high risk. Considering keeping my Gary Clark Jr tickets because 4th row aisle in a huge, high ceiling theater feels safer. 

Restocking certain supplies including masks in the event this takes another twist for the worse and this warrants a full lockdown again. 

Click to expand...

same for me.  I'll add that I'm probably going to start WFH again and masking up at work when I have to come in.  Also, keeping a close eye on hospital capacity.

ignatiusjreilly said:

I get what @Scoresman is saying here. Yeah, it's a contradiction, but we've all done contradictory stuff over the past year.

Also, I look at it this way: In general, people want to wear a mask when they're indoors with strangers. But that's clearly not an option at a restaurant, so they're willing to take on a little more risk in exchange for a pleasurable activity. It's not actually all that contradictory if you think in terms of relative risk rather than absolutes. 

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I haven’t been doing contradictory things the past year+.  If others have been, well, ok, that’s a choice.

I mentioned in the PSF forum that my dad caught the COVID.  Florida, 78 years old, over weight, high BP & cholesterol (medicated), and a few other health issues.  He has been vaccinated for a while.  He caught the COVID volunteering at a church youth camp.  He was doing fine but developed pneumonia and got worse - fever at 102 and O2 around 90.  Happy to report that he responded well to the medicine and is recovering.

Unfortunately, when he was pre-symptomatic, my brother and his wife (both vaccinated) took him out boating.  They both tested positive.  my SIL seemed to be fine but my brother - he's in the ER right now because of difficulty breathing.  My bro isn't the healthiest cat.  Lifelong bad asthma and diagnosed with diabetes in the past few years.  he is breathing better now than a few hours ago but still in the hospital waiting on results.  Hopefully he doesn't need to be admitted because the hospital is completely booked.

Moral of the story: vaccinations aren't stopping transmission and scary outcomes are still possible.  Hence, I will be masking up and limiting exposure once again.

ignatiusjreilly said:

I get what @Scoresman is saying here. Yeah, it's a contradiction, but we've all done contradictory stuff over the past year.

Also, I look at it this way: In general, people want to wear a mask when they're indoors with strangers. But that's clearly not an option at a restaurant, so they're willing to take on a little more risk in exchange for a pleasurable activity. It's not actually all that contradictory if you think in terms of relative risk rather than absolutes. 

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The risk of indoor dining is ridiculously higher than running around a grocery store without a mask.  Maybe multiple orders of magnitude. People choose to ignore this because enchiladas in a Styrofoam container suck, and I agree, but people seem to own this as their battle to fight or whatever.  

[icon] said:

The problem is herd immunity is off the table so the mindset of "all getting it at some point" loses some of its edge. 

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To me it's not really about herd immunity, just the reality we're going to have to deal with.  We'll all get it, vaccinated or not. People who have gotten it before will get it again at some point.  Do we lock down... forever?  Just never eat out again for the rest of your life?  Never travel again?  Never again be face to face with someone outside of your household without a mask on?  Forever?

If a variant emerges that becomes far deadlier for those who are vaccinated, that changes the equation.  That may happen, but it may not - it seems to be taken as a foregone conclusion that this is inevitable, but my understanding is that's far from correct.  Until there is evidence of such a variant, and as long as vaccines keep you very well protected from serious disease, then we need to shift to learning to live it with rather than keeping anyone from ever getting it.

Gilroy34 said:

Arizona is lucky to have Ducey who has been great on the COVID front.  

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uke:

There is absolutely no reason the government should step in and step on school's rights to follow healthcare experts recommended guidelines  to institute mask mandates to protect students and teachers for political purposes. Fine if he doesn't want to lead and institute the mandates himself (though he should), but get out of the way and let the people who are taking care of our kids do it properly. Remember when so called conservatives believed in local control and decision making? He's bowing to political pressure from the uninformed right wing electorate who are afraid of some government control conspiracy (seriously, what's the endgame here for requiring masks) and ignoring his responsibility to public health. The sooner he's out of office the better the state will be. Ducey, Abbott, DeSantis. All terrible. Sorry for a rant that really belongs in the politics forum, but the point is these so called leaders have all made a public health issue political to the detriment of their citizens.

culdeus said:

No I don't care if I get it now, I figure it's inevitable at this point.  There doesn't seem to be any risk of long vax covid or anything.

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Do we know this? Long Covid still concerns me. I mean it looks like Delta is breaking through and vaxxed people are staying out of the hospitals and not dying. BUT didn't we also learn that the OG was causing Long Covid in people regardless if how intense their symptoms were? 

Alex P Keaton said:

I haven’t been doing contradictory things the past year+.  If others have been, well, ok, that’s a choice.

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Good for you (not being sarcastic, I genuinely mean that). I've done the best I could, but I can definitely look back at some decisions and think, "Ooh, that really wasn't smart."

I read his original post as saying that, pre-vax, he didn't eat indoors. In the spring, when he was vaxxed and it seemed like we were all fully protected, he started doing it while still masking in other indoor situations. And now, he's reconsidering that. (Which, incidentally, is mostly where I'm at.) So at the point he was doing it, it didn't seem to be particularly risky

culdeus said:

The risk of indoor dining is ridiculously higher than running around a grocery store without a mask.  Maybe multiple orders of magnitude. People choose to ignore this because enchiladas in a Styrofoam container suck, and I agree, but people seem to own this as their battle to fight or whatever.  

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I should have said "risk-reward". If you're not bothered by masks, there's no real reward for taking it off in a grocery store. But there is in a restaurant, since it allows you to eat there. Which I guess is another way of saying that enchiladas in Styrofoam suck. 

Anyway, I'm not claiming this is the right decision, or the most rational one, or anything like that. I'm just saying we're all navigating this incredibly tricky situation, and as much as possible, I try to respect other people's choices even if they're contradictory or not the choices I would make. 

cap'n grunge said:

uke:

There is absolutely no reason the government should step in and step on school's rights to follow healthcare experts recommended guidelines  to institute mask mandates to protect students and teachers for political purposes. Fine if he doesn't want to lead and institute the mandates himself (though he should), but get out of the way and let the people who are taking care of our kids do it properly. Remember when so called conservatives believed in local control and decision making? He's bowing to political pressure from the uninformed right wing electorate who are afraid of some government control conspiracy (seriously, what's the endgame here for requiring masks) and ignoring his responsibility to public health. The sooner he's out of office the better the state will be. Ducey, Abbott, DeSantis. All terrible. Sorry for a rant that really belongs in the politics forum, but the point is these so called leaders have all made a public health issue political to the detriment of their citizens.

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The PSF is that way ------------------------------------->

CDC study shows three-fourths of people infected in Massachusetts covid-19 outbreak were vaccinated
By Carolyn Y. Johnson, Yasmeen Abutaleb and Joel Achenbach

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/30/provincetown-covid-outbreak-vaccinated/

IvanKaramazov said:

The PSF is that way ------------------------------------->

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As I said. Again, not my fault the Governors have made it political. That's my complaint...it's a public health issue.

ignatiusjreilly said:

Question for the vaxxed folk here: How much are you changing your behaviors as a result of the past week's news, and this latest CDC report in particular? I had never really stopped indoor masking, so tightening it up a little isn't a big deal. And my wife and I already decided that we won't do indoor dining with our unvaccinated children for the foreseeable future (we may if it's just the two of us, although I think we'll default to outdoor if we can).

The big question I'm wondering about is being in crowds. I recently started a new job where a big part of it is getting out in the community to network/schmooze. There's an event next week that I'd really like to go to, but I'm having second thoughts as to whether it's worth it.

The other thing I'm concerned about is my mother-in-law, who is a senior citizen, a cancer survivor and a Covid widow. That drove so much of our behavior until she was vaccinated, but now I'm wondering if we once again need to factor her safety into our plans (we typically see her once a week).

Don't have any answers, but I'm just curious how others are processing this info.

Click to expand...

Well if the wedding that I attended a few weeks ago were this weekend, I would not go.  I was intending to take the train to my office one day next week, and I think I am going to wait on that -- I just wanted to go in just to do it, we are still all WFH.  I am hesitant to get on a plane to Florida, Alabama, and Kentucky (like I may be asked to do).  Not as worried if MN or MI probably.  But I would wear K95 masks now in travel situations, not just on the plane.

Day to day is probably no change.  We have not dined indoors.  I wear a mask when going to run an errand inside.  I still do delivery for groceries.  I may swap my surgical mask for n/k95 for some things like I did early pandemic.

I will probably still get my massage next week.  But wear a mask -- she has an air purifier in the room and will mask as well (both vaxxed).  Debating on next haircut though.

moleculo said:

I mentioned in the PSF forum that my dad caught the COVID.  Florida, 78 years old, over weight, high BP & cholesterol (medicated), and a few other health issues.  He has been vaccinated for a while.  He caught the COVID volunteering at a church youth camp.  He was doing fine but developed pneumonia and got worse - fever at 102 and O2 around 90.  Happy to report that he responded well to the medicine and is recovering.

Unfortunately, when he was pre-symptomatic, my brother and his wife (both vaccinated) took him out boating.  They both tested positive.  my SIL seemed to be fine but my brother - he's in the ER right now because of difficulty breathing.  My bro isn't the healthiest cat.  Lifelong bad asthma and diagnosed with diabetes in the past few years.  he is breathing better now than a few hours ago but still in the hospital waiting on results.  Hopefully he doesn't need to be admitted because the hospital is completely booked.

Moral of the story: vaccinations aren't stopping transmission and scary outcomes are still possible.  Hence, I will be masking up and limiting exposure once again.

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Ugh.  Lots of anecdotal breakthroughs.  When they went out boating, were they inside together a lot too -- or all outside?

nate silver participating in a good twitter thread going through the CDC data.

culdeus said:

The risk of indoor dining is ridiculously higher than running around a grocery store without a mask.  Maybe multiple orders of magnitude.

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I see where you're coming from, but I think it's highly conditional.

If the grocery store looks like this, and the restaurant looks like this ... I'd say eating indoors in that instance is safer than the packed store.

I will say that it's generally less effort to hit up a grocery store off-peak than it is a random restaurant. If it's a restaurant you know well, and you can play the angles, and you're dining with your household ... you can get your indoor dining about as safe as a trip through the grocery. IMHO.

cap'n grunge said:

uke:

There is absolutely no reason the government should step in and step on school's rights to follow healthcare experts recommended guidelines  to institute mask mandates to protect students and teachers for political purposes. Fine if he doesn't want to lead and institute the mandates himself (though he should), but get out of the way and let the people who are taking care of our kids do it properly. Remember when so called conservatives believed in local control and decision making? He's bowing to political pressure from the uninformed right wing electorate who are afraid of some government control conspiracy (seriously, what's the endgame here for requiring masks) and ignoring his responsibility to public health. The sooner he's out of office the better the state will be. Ducey, Abbott, DeSantis. All terrible. Sorry for a rant that really belongs in the politics forum, but the point is these so called leaders have all made a public health issue political to the detriment of their citizens.

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Correct, it does belong in the PSF.  Unfortunately our leading health expert Fauci has been awful flip flopping and wrong countless times.  Desantis has been terrific and correct all along.  Implementing a mask mandate for children's schools is a horrible idea since they have very little risk at this point.

Scoresman said:

I got the J&J vaccine and I am going to be asking my doctor his thoughts on us getting a booster of either Moderna or Pfizer.  Hell, I'd get both shots at this point.  Load me up with all the vaccines.  

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Can you post what your doc tells you on this? My oldest son and I both got the J&J and we will booster (or plain switch to Phiser?) whenever it’s recommended.

Gilroy34 said:

Correct, it does belong in the PSF.  Unfortunately our leading health expert Fauci has been awful flip flopping and wrong countless times.  Desantis has been terrific and correct all along.  Implementing a mask mandate for children's schools is a horrible idea since they have very little risk at this point.

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It's called science. When our understanding changes, guidance changes. Fauci is terrific.

Leeroy Jenkins said:

nate silver participating in a good twitter thread going through the CDC data.

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For as bad as social media can be at times, its worth noting the best coverage of covid by far is found on Twitter.  You just have to know where to look.  It's honestly pretty amazing how much better quantitatively-sophisticated amateurs are at discussing this topic than professional journalists whose math training ended with "college algebra."  

ignatiusjreilly said:

Question for the vaxxed folk here: How much are you changing your behaviors as a result of the past week's news, and this latest CDC report in particular?

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Oregon dropped the mask mandate at the beginning of July so I haven't been wearing one when running to the grocery store, liquor store, Home Depot, etc.  We have dined inside I think twice, but default to outdoor if an option.  

Started wearing a mask again this week when running errands.  Don't think I'll do indoor dining at all for the near future. I have enjoyed getting my haircut at the barbershop the last couple of months, might be time to go back to having my girlfriend cut it at home with the clippers I bought at the beginning of all of this. And I am thinking I'll dig out the N95 masks and have those available if I'm going to be indoors with others for a significant amount of time (like a flight in 3 weeks, my first since "before").

I was feeling pretty confident that things would be normal-ish this fall for football games and tailgates, my daughter going off to college, etc.  Starting to get pretty concerned that won't be the case, unless Delta just rips through everyone unvaccinated (and some that are) in the next 4-6 weeks and then the numbers plunge....which seems to be a likely scenario in several areas.

Doug B said:

The Israeli numbers are legit and internally consistent, but they're only a piece of the puzzle -- they can't, with that one small-sample study alone, declare a conclusive "39% efficacy". There are other studies with other numbers, and they all have to be aggregated to get a clearer picture.

That said, the "getting infected with Delta" rate for mRNA-vaccinated people is a lot lower than the 90+% figures from the 2020 Phase III trials. I'm ballparking it around 60% until I can get my hands on more data.

EDIT: Plus what worrierking wrote. That was a great point about what the data seems to show about waning immunity in those who got vaccinated earliest.

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I for the most part agree. I don’t want to guess percentages—but I do want to make clear that I am of the belief that the MRNA vaccines are hugely valuable and beneficial.  WIth that said—I do think that some realities need to be absorbed and accepted.  The benefits of the vaccine have shifted as Covid has mutated and as efficacy has diminished over time.  The reality is that the virus is constantly changing and the vaccines are not. When the vaccines first came out—they were both great in preventing infection—and in the rare cases of breakthrough—they were great in preventing severe disease.   Now—they are helpful in preventing infection—but they are still really good at helping prevent serious disease.  This is still hugely valuable—as severe disease is a bad result for any of us on an individual level—but let’s not forget how disastrous it was for the country when our healthcare systems were overloaded and on the brink of collapse.  If the vaccines protect our healthcare systems from getting overloaded—that by itself is a giant positive.  I do want to make clear that I am absolutely pro-vaccine. 

With all of that made clear—I also want to remind people that the vaccines can and will give people a false sense of security.   From the beginning—I’ve taken the stance that the actions that people/countries take against covid help paint a clearer picture of realty than what is being fed to us.  When China was downplaying Covid—but at the same time shutting much of the country down—things didn’t smell right—and you can go back very early in this thread and see that I was one a few posters that said it was very concerning.  When our own CDC changed its tune on vaccinated people masking up indoors within a period of a week or two—they were clearly privy to information that we didn’t have. I assure you that if the vaccines were anywhere close to 88% effective in preventing Covid that they wouldn’t have made that violent 180 degree change in their stance.  I think that even if the vaccines were 60-65% effective in preventing covid—they wouldn’t have made that 180. Heck—-I think the Johnson and Johnson vaccine only had something like a 60 percent efficacy against infection before Delta—and the cdc didn’t mention anything about masking up indoors. 

This is not me being pessimistic—it’s being objective. As long as covid is somewhere in the world—it will be around and change—and this tug of war will continue.  I am of the belief that most of the global population is likely to get covid at one point or another—but with that said—-the more the risks of it can be reduced—the better.  Don’t think that a couple of vaccine shots are going to make you bulletproof against a constantly morphing virus.  In a little over a year—this virus has gone from China to every corner of the earth, has jumped from bats to humans to minx, and now lots of animals can get it, there are several strains—one of which is exponentially more transmissible than the prior ones—and it is guaranteed to change even more.  The point is that If one really wants to do what they can to prevent getting infected with Covid—vaccinating alone will not be enough.  Supplementing vaccination with quality masking would maximize the chances of preventing infection. I think the cdc and our officials were maybe guilty of overselling that the vaccinations were an immediate and guaranteed  ticket back to normalcy for the long term.   Even once injected—the vaccines have a shelf life and will need to be boosted or supplemented with good habits. 

Gilroy34 said:

Correct, it does belong in the PSF.  Unfortunately our leading health expert Fauci has been awful flip flopping and wrong countless times.  Desantis has been terrific and correct all along.  Implementing a mask mandate for children's schools is a horrible idea since they have very little risk at this point.

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Once you find yourself talking about whether Governor X is good or bad, that's almost always a sign that you've crossed over into PSF territory.  There's nothing wrong with evaluating the decisions made by a particular governor, of course.  Just that once we start down that road, it's only a matter of time before the partisan slap-fighting starts, and we've done a pretty good job keeping most of that stuff out of this thread.  

In other words, "My governor imposed a mask mandate in response to this week's CDC guidelines" is totally fine for this thread, IMO.  It's just stating an empirical fact and provides a little context for some of the anecdotes that we're all sharing. 

"My governor imposed a mask mandate and that's why I'm glad I voted for him" invites a rebuttal, which invites a bunch of partisan back-and-forth, which threatens to ruin whole pages of a perfectly thread.  That goes in the PSF IMO.

Not a mod obviously, but this approach has worked pretty well so far.  

jvdesigns2002 said:

I for the most part agree. I don’t want to guess percentages—but I do want to make clear that I am of the belief that the MRNA vaccines are hugely valuable and beneficial.  WIth that said—I do think that some realities need to be absorbed and accepted.  The benefits of the vaccine have shifted as Covid has mutated and as efficacy has diminished over time.  The reality is that the virus is constantly changing and the vaccines are not. When the vaccines first came out—they were both great in preventing infection—and in the rare cases of breakthrough—they were great in preventing severe disease.   Now—they are helpful in preventing infection—but they are still really good at helping prevent serious disease.  This is still hugely valuable—as severe disease is a bad result for any of us on an individual level—but let’s not forget how disastrous it was for the country when our healthcare systems were overloaded and on the brink of collapse.  If the vaccines protect our healthcare systems from getting overloaded—that by itself is a giant positive.  I do want to make clear that I am absolutely pro-vaccine. 

With all of that made clear—I also want to remind people that the vaccines can and will give people a false sense of security.   From the beginning—I’ve taken the stance that the actions that people/countries take against covid help paint a clearer picture of realty than what is being fed to us.  When China was downplaying Covid—but at the same time shutting much of the country down—things didn’t smell right—and you can go back very early in this thread and see that I was one a few posters that said it was very concerning.  When our own CDC changed its tune on vaccinated people masking up indoors within a period of a week or two—they were clearly privy to information that we didn’t have. I assure you that if the vaccines were anywhere close to 88% effective in preventing Covid that they wouldn’t have made that violent 180 degree change in their stance.  I think that even if the vaccines were 60-65% effective in preventing covid—they wouldn’t have made that 180. Heck—-I think the Johnson and Johnson vaccine only had something like a 60 percent efficacy against infection before Delta—and the cdc didn’t mention anything about masking up indoors. 

This is not me being pessimistic—it’s being objective. As long as covid is somewhere in the world—it will be around and change—and this tug of war will continue.  I am of the belief that most of the global population is likely to get covid at one point or another—but with that said—-the more the risks of it can be reduced—the better.  Don’t think that a couple of vaccine shots are going to make you bulletproof against a constantly morphing virus.  In a little over a year—this virus has gone from China to every corner of the earth, has jumped from bats to humans to minx, and now lots of animals can get it, there are several strains—one of which is exponentially more transmissible than the prior ones—and it is guaranteed to change even more.  The point is that If one really wants to do what they can to prevent getting infected with Covid—vaccinating alone will not be enough.  Supplementing vaccination with quality masking would maximize the chances of preventing infection. I think the cdc and our officials were maybe guilty of overselling that the vaccinations were an immediate and guaranteed  ticket back to normalcy for the long term.   Even once injected—the vaccines have a shelf life and will need to be boosted or supplemented. 

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It seems they made a calculation that dropping masking recommendations might help highlight the benefits of vaccinations as we had stalled out in our progress there. A mistake that Delta may be fixing for us, as vax rates are turning back up and hopefully masking follows.

IvanKaramazov said:

Once you find yourself talking about whether Governor X is good or bad, that's almost always a sign that you've crossed over into PSF territory.  There's nothing wrong with evaluating the decisions made by a particular governor, of course.  Just that once we start down that road, it's only a matter of time before the partisan slap-fighting starts, and we've done a pretty good job keeping most of that stuff out of this thread.  

In other words, "My governor imposed a mask mandate in response to this week's CDC guidelines" is totally fine for this thread, IMO.  It's just stating an empirical fact and provides a little context for some of the anecdotes that we're all sharing. 

"My governor imposed a mask mandate and that's why I'm glad I voted for him" invites a rebuttal, which invites a bunch of partisan back-and-forth, which threatens to ruin whole pages of a perfectly thread.  That goes in the PSF IMO.

Not a mod obviously, but this approach has worked pretty well so far.  

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Agreed.  Grunge has continually posted PSF level content in here despite being told not to so I had to set the record straight.

cap'n grunge said:

It's called science. When our understanding changes, guidance changes. Fauci is terrific.

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Fauci has been awful.

Gilroy34 said:

Agreed.  Grunge has continually posted PSF level content in here despite being told not to so I had to set the record straight.

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You set nothing straight LOL. Welcome to ignore.

SFBayDuck said:

Oregon dropped the mask mandate at the beginning of July so I haven't been wearing one when running to the grocery store, liquor store, Home Depot, etc.  We have dined inside I think twice, but default to outdoor if an option.  

Started wearing a mask again this week when running errands.  Don't think I'll do indoor dining at all for the near future. I have enjoyed getting my haircut at the barbershop the last couple of months, might be time to go back to having my girlfriend cut it at home with the clippers I bought at the beginning of all of this. And I am thinking I'll dig out the N95 masks and have those available if I'm going to be indoors with others for a significant amount of time (like a flight in 3 weeks, my first since "before").

I was feeling pretty confident that things would be normal-ish this fall for football games and tailgates, my daughter going off to college, etc.  Starting to get pretty concerned that won't be the case, unless Delta just rips through everyone unvaccinated (and some that are) in the next 4-6 weeks and then the numbers plunge....which seems to be a likely scenario in several areas.

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Good point. Pre-vax, I had to go into the office half-time, and on those days I would wear either K94s or cloth with an added filter, and then immediately wash or throw them away at the end of the day. I saved my other cloth ones for when I was running errands, etc. Once I got vaxxed, I ditched the K94s/filters and just used those cloth ones all the time, swapping them out once or twice a week. I might want to go back to the good stuff.

Anecdotal perhaps but this was posted on Facebook by a local assemblyman. 

"Vaccine break through infections are being reported and this treatment is being used. Also natural antibodies should be acknowledged as well. They are just as effective or better than the vaccine. Recently I was discussing this with a medical provider and they are receiving calls from those vaccinated and unvaccinated who are sick. But those who had COVID and still have antibodies are not calling with illness. This is something that needs to be considered. 
https://abc7ny.com/10918914/?ex_cid=TA_WABC_FB&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook"

jobarules said:

"Also natural antibodies should be acknowledged as well. They are just as effective or better than the vaccine."

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The assemblyman forgets: What do people have to do to get those  natural antibodies? Roll the dice with a COVID infection.

SFBayDuck said:

Oregon dropped the mask mandate at the beginning of July so I haven't been wearing one when running to the grocery store, liquor store, Home Depot, etc.  We have dined inside I think twice, but default to outdoor if an option.  

Started wearing a mask again this week when running errands.  Don't think I'll do indoor dining at all for the near future. I have enjoyed getting my haircut at the barbershop the last couple of months, might be time to go back to having my girlfriend cut it at home with the clippers I bought at the beginning of all of this. And I am thinking I'll dig out the N95 masks and have those available if I'm going to be indoors with others for a significant amount of time (like a flight in 3 weeks, my first since "before").

I was feeling pretty confident that things would be normal-ish this fall for football games and tailgates, my daughter going off to college, etc.  Starting to get pretty concerned that won't be the case, unless Delta just rips through everyone unvaccinated (and some that are) in the next 4-6 weeks and then the numbers plunge....which seems to be a likely scenario in several areas.

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N95 masks expire at some point.  If you have to dig them out odds are they are RIP.

Doug B said:

The assemblyman forgets: What do people have to do to get those  natural antibodies? Roll the dice with a COVID infection.

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I dont think anyone is saying that at all.

IvanKaramazov said:

...the partisan slap-fighting starts... 

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Gilroy34 said:

...so I had to set the record straight...

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Almost on cue.

Leeroy Jenkins said:

Ugh.  Lots of anecdotal breakthroughs.  When they went out boating, were they inside together a lot too -- or all outside?

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there was a car ride to the boat.

culdeus said:

N95 masks expire at some point.  If you have to dig them out odds are they are RIP.

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How do you find out exp?  What is it approx, from time of opening the package?