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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (21 Viewers)

Update: Looks like in-laws now need to get tested as they are complaining of chest pain and shortness of breath. Keep in mind they were visited by my BIL on Sunday. I’m not saying he is responsible (didn’t bother to get tested), but the timing is suspect. Hoping for the best here, but it could have been easily avoided (at least my BIL)  :wall:
That sucks man. It’s hard to believe how careless and selfish some people are. 

My dad is in his mid-60s and survived a major heart attack when he was 44. He’s obviously at risk. He is part of a men’s Bible study that meets for breakfast once a week. Since this thing got bad, he has stopped going even though the group continues to meet in a restaurant for breakfast weekly. Thank goodness he stopped because not only are the guys in the group not distancing at all, one of the guys came recently and flat out told the other guys that he had just tested positive but it was “ok because he was asymptomatic.” No distancing, no masks, and a dude who knew he was positive showed up anyway. That’s just selfish, careless, and unreal to me.

 
That sucks man. It’s hard to believe how careless and selfish some people are. 

My dad is in his mid-60s and survived a major heart attack when he was 44. He’s obviously at risk. He is part of a men’s Bible study that meets for breakfast once a week. Since this thing got bad, he has stopped going even though the group continues to meet in a restaurant for breakfast weekly. Thank goodness he stopped because not only are the guys in the group not distancing at all, one of the guys came recently and flat out told the other guys that he had just tested positive but it was “ok because he was asymptomatic.” No distancing, no masks, and a dude who knew he was positive showed up anyway. That’s just selfish, careless, and unreal to me.
It's really not.  If you are going to pass up golf to show up weekly to discuss fairy tales, it's some other issue besides be selfish.

 
What I’m curious about is whether the 40% that have no symptoms have no effects at all. With all the reports of this thing leaving people with damaged organs, I wonder if it’s possible that people have damage from the virus and may not even know it. Certainly hope that’s not the case obviously.
Wife is looking at the heart part of it.  The hypothesis they have (around the heart anyway) is that, yes, it can cause damage to the tissue even if they don't have symptoms, but it's not significant enough to make a noticeable difference.  It's going to take years to know much about this aspect though.

 
What percentage of virus expelled was collected by any of the masks?  Isn't that the actually question?
Serious question.  Anybody have any idea??

I've read things like this:

They can't work because blocking 1,000 pretty-large droplets sounds like it's great except hundreds of thousands or even millions of condensed water vapor molecule clusters were also expelled, they have enough virons on them to infect another person and very nearly zero of those are caught by the mask in either direction.  The ones you see when you breathe out in the winter are >50um in size (the limit of visibility to the unaided eye); more than 50 times the size of the mean particle you actually exhale.  Worse, every one of those tiny particles, unless condensed out or breathed in by someone else can remain in the air for hours since they are small enough to remain within the purview of brownian motion of air molecules; that is, they "float" so to speak because the energy of said molecular vibration and ordinary air currents, even indoors, is large compared to the pull of gravity toward the ground and thus they remain suspended in the air.

 
Serious question.  Anybody have any idea??

I've read things like this:

They can't work because blocking 1,000 pretty-large droplets sounds like it's great except hundreds of thousands or even millions of condensed water vapor molecule clusters were also expelled, they have enough virons on them to infect another person and very nearly zero of those are caught by the mask in either direction.  The ones you see when you breathe out in the winter are >50um in size (the limit of visibility to the unaided eye); more than 50 times the size of the mean particle you actually exhale.  Worse, every one of those tiny particles, unless condensed out or breathed in by someone else can remain in the air for hours since they are small enough to remain within the purview of brownian motion of air molecules; that is, they "float" so to speak because the energy of said molecular vibration and ordinary air currents, even indoors, is large compared to the pull of gravity toward the ground and thus they remain suspended in the air.
The study has a graphic showing the efficacy of each mask. 

The bold is not known yet so whoever said that can be crossed off of your source list. 

 
The study has a graphic showing the efficacy of each mask. 

The bold is not known yet so whoever said that can be crossed off of your source list. 
Right.  But the study doesn't talk about the quantify of the virus contained by the mask.  Just the particles measured.  They are not the same thing.  Are you saying they are the same thing?  I don't think they are and I don't think the study claims they are, but I could be wrong.  

But as long as I can cross the person of the list because their concerns are "not known" I don't have anything to worry about.  I just get confused about our scientific theories based on limited evidence.  You know, which ones matter and which ones don't. 

 
I honestly can't imagine reading a study that shows

even a VALVED N95 mask stops over 80% of droplets and that a surgical mask stopped 99% and a mask made by Grandma stops over 90%

and then thinking that I would go dunk on people about fit testing.
I don't understand all of this. 

So aerosol spread is the same thing as droplet spread?  You claim that anyone who doubts the mask studies about droplet spread don't understand how COVID spreads.  Then you quote studies about aerosol spread.

Are they the same thing?  I wasn't under the impression that they are.  But that could be a misunderstanding on my part.  If a mask that contains droplets also contains aerosols it makes a big difference.  

 
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Serious question.  Anybody have any idea??

I've read things like this:

They can't work because blocking 1,000 pretty-large droplets sounds like it's great except hundreds of thousands or even millions of condensed water vapor molecule clusters were also expelled, they have enough virons on them to infect another person and very nearly zero of those are caught by the mask in either direction.  The ones you see when you breathe out in the winter are >50um in size (the limit of visibility to the unaided eye); more than 50 times the size of the mean particle you actually exhale.  Worse, every one of those tiny particles, unless condensed out or breathed in by someone else can remain in the air for hours since they are small enough to remain within the purview of brownian motion of air molecules; that is, they "float" so to speak because the energy of said molecular vibration and ordinary air currents, even indoors, is large compared to the pull of gravity toward the ground and thus they remain suspended in the air.
I’m not sure anyone has an exact answer on this for numerous reasons. I don’t think there’s a currently feasible way to replicate actual virus particles being filtered through a mask.

I’m not sure if this is the way it actually works, but I’ve read that masks can help prevent micro-droplets by blocking the larger droplets. It was said/thought that the majority of micro-droplets are created when larger droplets break up as they travel through the air. So if you can catch them before they begin to break up, you can prevent them from turning into micro-droplets.

 
Right.  But the study doesn't talk about the quantify of the virus contained by the mask.  Just the particles measured.  They are not the same thing.  Are you saying they are the same thing?  I don't think they are and I don't think the study claims they are, but I could be wrong.  

But as long as I can cross the person of the list because their concerns are "not known" I don't have anything to worry about.  I just get confused about our scientific theories based on limited evidence.  You know, which ones matter and which ones don't. 
No. 

 
I don't understand all of this. 

So aerosol spread is the same thing as droplet spread?  You claim that anyone who doubts the mask studies about droplet spread don't understand how COVID spreads.  Then you quote studies about aerosol spread.

Are they the same thing?  I wasn't under the impression that they are.  But that could be a misunderstanding on my part.  If a mask that contains droplets also contains aerosols it makes a big difference.  
The terms all get confusing. Droplets and aerosols are different, but also not different. Droplets vs droplet nuclei vs micro droplets vs aerosols. Droplets can even become aerosols mid flight.

The only difference is their size and how they travel. A small enough droplet gets to a point where gravity is no longer the main driver of its motion patterns. 

Masks do block aerosols(aka really really small droplets). Even cloth masks and surgical masks do. 

Most neck gaiters and bandannas dont do a very good job of this which should not surprise anybody when looking at them. Bandannas are thin and gaiters are stretchy. 

It is like not being surprised to hear that a pair of really thin yoga pants can show your butt crack or other areas when stretched out. 

 
greedygoat said:
My 18 year old son had a friend over our house this past weekend.  His friend informed us this morning that he just tested positive. He is asymptomatic and was only tested because he’s leaving for college next week and the school requires a negative test for all student athletes before they can attend practices. 
 

So, I just took my family of four for testing less than an hour ago in Palm Beach County, FL. I was told I should have our results in 2-3 days. 
Just got our results back, in less than 24 hours, all four of us are negative!!!

 
Disclaimer:  I am a shareholder of CytoDyn.

CytoDyn announced that their drug, leronlimab, had statistically significant results in a phase 2 double blind placebo controlled trial.  The trial was on patients with mild-moderate disease and one of the endpoints was measured by an objective score called NEWS2 (National Early Warning Score 2).  NEWS2 measures clinical parameters including respiratory rate, oxygen saturation, supplemental oxygen, temperature, systolic blood pressure, heart rate, and level of consciousness and was developed in the UK by the Royal College of Physicians.  In all treated patients, at the End of Treatment (or Day 14), patients in the leronlimab group were more than twice as likely to experience a beneficial improvement in scores compared to patients in the placebo group (50% vs 20%; p=0.0223).  CYDY has applied to the FDA for EUA (emergency use authorization) which is what Gilead's remdesivir received in May.  

They are also running a phase 2b/3 trial for severe to critical patients and will do an interim analysis when they reach 195 patients--presently ~175 are enrolled.

 
this is discouraging :wall:  

Accuracy of U.S. coronavirus data thrown into question as decline in testing skews drop in new cases

tl;dr: places (such as Texas) where there are declines are doing less testing, so it may in fact be false decreases 
Not surprising. He said they were going to slow down testing. And the fact it’s Texas, Florida and North Carolina driving the decrease in testing? Also no surprise. It’s disgusting.

Take the NBA bubble as an example. Did they find a cure in the NBA bubble? No. They test everyone, all the time, wear masks and physically distance. 0 cases in over 2 weeks running.

Same solutions have been available now for months. Yet here we are, still. Other countries must think we’re stupid.

 
what has happened to hospitalizations in these areas? 
Probably don't know at this time since all hospital data is now backlogged since it's no longer being reported through the CDC. One more tangle in the overall clusterF. 

Our state's hospitalization numbers didn't get updated today, and they added this to our dashboard today: "Due to recent changes in federal reporting requirements, hospital related data has been delayed. LDH will update these data as soon as possible."

 
this is discouraging :wall:  

Accuracy of U.S. coronavirus data thrown into question as decline in testing skews drop in new cases

tl;dr: places (such as Texas) where there are declines are doing less testing, so it may in fact be false decreases 
Anecdotally, living close to a drive thru test site, there's hardly anyone lining up.  

It's possible, I mean maybe that there are fewer people to test.   There is no drive to randomly test healthy people so I mean this is what you get.

 
About three weeks ago, guidance from CDC changed on who can return to work after a positive COVID-19 test.  Before the change, they required negative tests. This drove up demand for testing considerably, as some people who were desperate to get cleared and back to work were getting tested every day. Now, the back to work requirement is based on symptoms (lack thereof) and time and you no longer need a negative test.  This accounts for a significant reduction in demand for tests.  In my part of Louisiana, it cut demand by about 15-20%. It also allowed us to get the backlog reduced.  We were seeing results in 7-10 days.  Now it's 3-5 days.  

Also, in Louisiana, they track the number of people seeking treatment for flu-like symptoms.  It has been reduced significantly.  That's probably a better indication of where we are in terms of disease prevalence than the actual testing numbers.  I would be interested to see Texas' numbers on that metric. 

 
Anecdotally, living close to a drive thru test site, there's hardly anyone lining up.  

It's possible, I mean maybe that there are fewer people to test.   There is no drive to randomly test healthy people so I mean this is what you get.
This is my experience as well.  The free drive-through testing site is right across the street from my office.  A month ago there would be several hundred cars lined up at 7:45 am. Now there are 5-10 each morning. Demand is down here.

 
I mean there is a "free" one at a church every Monday. It's one of the Bill Gates one (heard this don't know for sure if that's true or facebook nonsense).  Even the ones that are free are not selling.  I'm thinking of just popping over once my kids go back to school on mondays and get my brain swabbed.

 
this is discouraging :wall:  

Accuracy of U.S. coronavirus data thrown into question as decline in testing skews drop in new cases

tl;dr: places (such as Texas) where there are declines are doing less testing, so it may in fact be false decreases 
Hospitalizations and percent positive remain good indicators for how a state is progressing...as long as they’re accurate. Arizona saw the case numbers fall before hospitalizations and % positive because of a huge testing backlog. Once they caught up with the testing everything else started to fall, showing true improvement.

Now the question to ask is why the testing has decreased? Has there been a decrease in demand because there are less sick people or is there testing fatigue from long waits to gets tested and the results? Or have there been testing sites closed. In Arizona it’s gotten better but testing fatigue is real. But new sites and quicker turnarounds might increase the demand and there might be a rise again or at least less of the slowdown. Not sure where Texas falls on that spectrum.

 
This is my experience as well.  The free drive-through testing site is right across the street from my office.  A month ago there would be several hundred cars lined up at 7:45 am. Now there are 5-10 each morning. Demand is down here.
Just a note about local free testing (New Orleans metro) that might help other people in other areas:

If you've hesitated to get a COVID-19 test because the procedure seemed onerous (the LONG swap going up to your "brain") ... our local drive-ups use a much smoother test. It's a self-administered test, though nurses are on-hand to supervise and will ask you to repeat it if you mess up. They only ask you to swab about 1/2" into your own nostrils. If you've been apprehensive about getting tested, ask around for that "easy" self-test.

And worrierking is right -- went through the drive-up testing site Tuesday afternoon, and there was only a two-car wait.

 
The True Coronavirus Toll in the U.S. Has Already Surpassed 200,000 (New York Times, 4/13/2020)

Grim topic, to be sure. But the Times has done a great job of preparing visual aids and showing their work. Cliffs Notes -- statistical "extra" deaths since March are greater than the reported number of COVID-19 deaths.

Across the United States, at least 200,000 more people have died than usual since March, according to a New York Times analysis of estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This is about 60,000 higher than the number of deaths that have been directly linked to the coronavirus.

As the pandemic has moved south and west from its epicenter in New York City, so have the unusual patterns in deaths from all causes. That suggests that the official death counts may be substantially underestimating the overall effects of the virus, as people die from the virus as well as by other causes linked to the pandemic.

 
The True Coronavirus Toll in the U.S. Has Already Surpassed 200,000 (New York Times, 4/13/2020)

Grim topic, to be sure. But the Times has done a great job of preparing visual aids and showing their work. Cliffs Notes -- statistical "extra" deaths since March are greater than the reported number of COVID-19 deaths.
Duh.  In epidemics, actual deaths (counted via excess deaths method) always outstrip the actual reported deaths from death certificates.

 
The whole family rolled into the Bear Mountain test site today since my 5 year old has been running a 103 fever with sore throat and body aches. They told us we should have results tomorrow!  Would be amazing if true. 

Fingers crossed. 
Good luck!

 
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Friend and his mom just tested positive.  They both were ill for a couple days and recovered.  He works construction and his job site is now shut down.  Apparently people that were sick and needed to work to pay their bills were paying $30 for fraudulent documentation of negative tests.

 
I have intubated probably 30 or so people with covid since the pandemic started.   When it first hit, we were intubating people early before they crashed (made sense at the time, it's the standard of care for literally just about every prior similar respiratory situation except maybe asthma). But as the pandemic evolved, we now use high flow nasal cannula and will allow people to have O2 sats even in the low 80's sometimes for days to even weeks as these patients do poorly on vents.   But now I wind up going to the ICU every night to intubate people that are essentially corpses whose family refuse to DNR despite the fact that there is simply no way they will live.   I think everyone I've intubated in the last month has died.    About an hour ago I intubated a 72 year old with multiple preexisting conditions who was admitted july 25th, has pneumothoraxes in both lungs and finally became so altered she couldn't hang on.   Family refuses to accept reality.   She will be dead within 48 hours.  I don't understand why this is the culture in america.  

In almost every other country this patient would never get intubated.  It's futile care.   The medical team in other countries, even with advanced healthcare systems with plenty of ventilator availability like australia and europe wouldn't  even offer it as an option.. Not to mention that everyone is risking their own health to take care of these futile cases.  The care of these futile cases sucks up millions and millions and millions of dollars.  A lot of these patients have even had palliative care consults and families still want everything done, even dialysis and massively invasive procedure   Insane.

 
An Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) prosecutor just died from it. There was a bit of an outbreak at the courthouse and basically nobody was told until it was too late. Total disaster. 
 

A friend’s husband has been in the hospital on a ventilator 41 days. Got taken off yesterday and had a negative test but is still in critical condition.  Guy in his late 40s. 

 
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Well you are alive so thats good.  
I was using an abundance of caution because my parents were coming for the first time since January to see my kids. Got test more than a week prior and only was concerned because my idiot mechanic didn’t have a mask on when I had to take my car to the shop for inspection. Results were supposed to be 3-5 days but then they kept moving goal posts. So useless for results more than 3 weeks afterwards that I didn’t really care that there was an error — too late. Test was at CVS. 

 
I had a sore throat and got tested. It took 22 days for me to get results and the result was “test not performed, sample arrived in good condition but was later compromised”
This sort of thing is infuriating.  We (the US) had all summer to get our testing infrastructure up and running.  It's better now than it was back in April, but it's disgraceful that still don't have ubiquitous testing with 24-hour turnaround.

 
I have intubated probably 30 or so people with covid since the pandemic started.   When it first hit, we were intubating people early before they crashed (made sense at the time, it's the standard of care for literally just about every prior similar respiratory situation except maybe asthma). But as the pandemic evolved, we now use high flow nasal cannula and will allow people to have O2 sats even in the low 80's sometimes for days to even weeks as these patients do poorly on vents.   But now I wind up going to the ICU every night to intubate people that are essentially corpses whose family refuse to DNR despite the fact that there is simply no way they will live.   I think everyone I've intubated in the last month has died.    About an hour ago I intubated a 72 year old with multiple preexisting conditions who was admitted july 25th, has pneumothoraxes in both lungs and finally became so altered she couldn't hang on.   Family refuses to accept reality.   She will be dead within 48 hours.  I don't understand why this is the culture in america.  

In almost every other country this patient would never get intubated.  It's futile care.   The medical team in other countries, even with advanced healthcare systems with plenty of ventilator availability like australia and europe wouldn't  even offer it as an option.. Not to mention that everyone is risking their own health to take care of these futile cases.  The care of these futile cases sucks up millions and millions and millions of dollars.  A lot of these patients have even had palliative care consults and families still want everything done, even dialysis and massively invasive procedure   Insane.
Speaking from the perspective of having a much older family where many have passed away already (not because of COVID, I'm talking in the last decade) people are selfish and unprepared when the moment comes. Luckily my family has enjoyed long life and to a person, all those that have passed where prepared to go. It doesn't make it any easier but there is a very definitive point where there is no longer hope for one to come back but thanks to the good work of people like @growlers, machines can keep them alive almost indefinitely. I implore you to have conversations with your elder relatives about this before a tube is in their throat so it's very clear what their intentions are. There is a time to fight and there is a time to accept the inevitable. No one gets out alive, be prepared for that moment.

 
How are you all dealing with strained relationships with grandparents/parents?

My wife's family has basically decided to just go with the idea that if we all WFH and stay relatively safe we are ok to periodically see eachother.

My family (mainly my mother) is much more risk averse, as is my sister.  They don't want to see anyone except outside with distance.

So I've gotten used more or less to not seeing anyone in my family side.  In the beginning we'd do parks and stuff, but it's hot AF now and I ain't gonna drive 90 minutes each way to sweat my ### off for 15 minutes and go home.  Sorry, not happening.  Maybe I'm the ####### here, but this thing isn't going anywhere and we can wait till it cools off.

The pressure I'm getting is that once school starts my kids will be exposed.  So I need to do this now, as if they will die or something.  I'm like if we are just doing outdoor 6 feet, maybe even with masks what is the ####### difference?  

 
How are you all dealing with strained relationships with grandparents/parents?

My wife's family has basically decided to just go with the idea that if we all WFH and stay relatively safe we are ok to periodically see eachother.

My family (mainly my mother) is much more risk averse, as is my sister.  They don't want to see anyone except outside with distance.

So I've gotten used more or less to not seeing anyone in my family side.  In the beginning we'd do parks and stuff, but it's hot AF now and I ain't gonna drive 90 minutes each way to sweat my ### off for 15 minutes and go home.  Sorry, not happening.  Maybe I'm the ####### here, but this thing isn't going anywhere and we can wait till it cools off.

The pressure I'm getting is that once school starts my kids will be exposed.  So I need to do this now, as if they will die or something.  I'm like if we are just doing outdoor 6 feet, maybe even with masks what is the ####### difference?  
I kind of feel like it is time to start battening down the hatches again. We were letting my MIL come over and sit outside away from us/kids. That evolved to letting her in the house with masks at times. To then no real restriction. We also did a vacation with her and my parents and sister (when I got tested). Everyone “quarantined” 2 weeks prior. Now I want to move back to just outside maybe. I dont know what the answer is. Frustrating. 
 

we are doing cyber school for my kindergartener and opting not to send my 3.5 year old to preschool this year. 

 
Friend and his mom just tested positive.  They both were ill for a couple days and recovered.  He works construction and his job site is now shut down.  Apparently people that were sick and needed to work to pay their bills were paying $30 for fraudulent documentation of negative tests.
Super cool stuff.

 
I have intubated probably 30 or so people with covid since the pandemic started.   When it first hit, we were intubating people early before they crashed (made sense at the time, it's the standard of care for literally just about every prior similar respiratory situation except maybe asthma). But as the pandemic evolved, we now use high flow nasal cannula and will allow people to have O2 sats even in the low 80's sometimes for days to even weeks as these patients do poorly on vents.   But now I wind up going to the ICU every night to intubate people that are essentially corpses whose family refuse to DNR despite the fact that there is simply no way they will live.   I think everyone I've intubated in the last month has died.    About an hour ago I intubated a 72 year old with multiple preexisting conditions who was admitted july 25th, has pneumothoraxes in both lungs and finally became so altered she couldn't hang on.   Family refuses to accept reality.   She will be dead within 48 hours.  I don't understand why this is the culture in america.  

In almost every other country this patient would never get intubated.  It's futile care.   The medical team in other countries, even with advanced healthcare systems with plenty of ventilator availability like australia and europe wouldn't  even offer it as an option.. Not to mention that everyone is risking their own health to take care of these futile cases.  The care of these futile cases sucks up millions and millions and millions of dollars.  A lot of these patients have even had palliative care consults and families still want everything done, even dialysis and massively invasive procedure   Insane.
You're singing my song, here. I think most of it comes down to lack of understanding. People are so used to the paradigm of "I get sick. I go to the hospital. Doctors do hospital-ly stuff. I get better. I go home." There's not enough education or honest, frank conversations with people to tell them, "yes, with modern medicine we CAN do some things to extend your loved one's life, but SHOULD we?" I think if people were better educated as to the course and progression of disease and what happens when an already compromised person has sepsis/multiple organ failure, they'd be more likely to make the pragmatic choice.

Not enough GPs are having those conversations with their patients, and unfortunately, it's falling to Hospitalists and Intensivists to have that conversation with family, without any rapport or real background on the patient. Plus, there's time constraints of being able to have such an immensely weighty conversation, when 20 minutes can mean a lifetime.

It's just broken, all the way around. I feel your pain; it's soul crushing knowing that you're essentially medically torturing someone. Thank god for propofol, versed and fentanyl.

I feel for the families, too. I've had to make that decision a few times, myself. And, even knowing it was absolutely the right thing to do, making that decision still haunts me.

 
How do other counties handle this? Canada? UK?
Honestly, I don't know. I've heard that that doctors will just flat out refuse to perform heroic measures if it doesn't make sense, but I don't know if it's true, or not.

Here, there's no way that will happen, until there is a lot more education and a reform of the healthcare system. 

 
Update: Looks like in-laws now need to get tested as they are complaining of chest pain and shortness of breath. Keep in mind they were visited by my BIL on Sunday. I’m not saying he is responsible (didn’t bother to get tested), but the timing is suspect. Hoping for the best here, but it could have been easily avoided (at least my BIL)  :wall:
Update 2: In-laws had the same symptoms as BIL, but felt better a couple of days later and saw no reason to get COVID tested. Oof. I give up. 

 
Update 2: In-laws had the same symptoms as BIL, but felt better a couple of days later and saw no reason to get COVID tested. Oof. I give up. 
If we consider all the stories and anecdotal experience you would think we are a country full of morons - then I look at the numbers and how long it's been going on and it just confirms things.

 
Had a rather uncomfortable interaction this past weekend.  Apologize in advance for the length, but this is pretty much the battle going on in the entire state of Florida in a nutshell.  Fourth of July weekend was my mom's birthday.  She turned 75.  My pops passed in 2016, so she's been coopping through that since.  My brother and I decided that it would be a good idea to have his family and my mom come to our house for 4-5 days.  The cousins haven't seen each other for almost a year and my kids haven't seen grandma in just over a year.  So, we tell mom of our idea but it's only going to happen if she stays put in her house for two weeks and if she HAS to go out, she better wear a mask....yes, she's a "government can't tell me what to do" person.  Anyway, we made the terms and she committed to them.  They come down, have a great time everyone goes home, no big deal.  They stayed here at our house.  We had thought of going to the beach one day but upon learning that the beaches here were FULL at 8am that whole weekend, we decided not to go.  We feasted on BBQ etc and the kids had a blast in the pool and the inflatable water slide we rented.

Fast forward to last week.  My MIL, who lives in South Florida, has been begging my wife to allow the kids to come down to the beach in her area and she can look after them for a week.  This is something they do every year.  Problem is, she's a real estate agent (who also is anti-mask) and is out all over the counties that are getting run over by this virus every day.  The town she lives in was at 100% capacity in early June and hasn't dropped below 95% this whole time.  It's also one of the areas where they've had a few of these 7-800 person "block parties".  So, we've been really hesitant to send them for a myriad of reasons, but these are the main ones.  She called my wife again and asked saying she was all alone at the beach now and that it would be just her in the kids.  She hadn't been anywhere for 10 days etc.  So we decided, fine....let them go.  Wife took them down on a Friday morning.  Saturday we talk with the kids everything's good...having a blast, everyone's doing what they were supposed to (our kids know the deal and what we expect).  Sunday rolls around and our daughter mentions that she's excited that "Papa" and their aunt are coming so that she can see them.  Um, excuse me...what?  Papa has been in Alabama around an entire family of "anti-mask" people and aunt is 29 years old living at home too lazy to do the work to collect unemployment.  Oh, and by the way, she's also just gotten off of a week in Key West and 4-5 days here in Orlando area with all her friends.  My wife was livid.  We got in the car and drove down and picked them up that morning.  The kids were upset, "Nana" was upset, my wife was angry and my SIL is bombarding my wife's phone with nonsense.  Aunt, I don't care what you say...you don't have a voice here.  Do the right thing or don't.  That's your choice, but when you know what happens if you don't, don't get pissy with me because I follow through on what I tell you is going to happen.  You aren't a child anymore...grow up.  The same goes for the MIL too really.  These decisions put us in an incredibly awkward situation and then framed as if we were the problem.

The awkwardness, whatever....I can deal with it.  You made a bad decision, didn't think we'd do the right thing and you were wrong.  That's on you not me.  I was supportive of my wife through the whole thing, but kept quiet.  Well, until my family and their visit came up (now you see why I explain that above).  My MIL was laying on a pretty thick guilt trip to my wife (on speaker phone in the car on the way down) and then decided to go too far and bring my family into it.  At that point, I decided to outline just how different things were between the two situations and how they weren't really comparable events and had nothing to do with the fact she made decisions we told her not to make and that she lied to us while doing it.  We basically read her the riot act and it's been a week since she's talked to us.  My wife doesn't know what to do and I keep telling her there's nothing for her to do.  This was not her decision.  It was her mom's.  It's not her fault and she shouldn't feel guilty at all.  She's protecting her family.  School is starting in a couple weeks for the kids and she started classes this week.  We can't afford sickness in this house and we've taken all this time to do the right thing for months, we aren't screwing that up because someone else can't be an adult.  I don't know what's going to happen next, but it's not good right now.  We are officially the black sheep to that side of her family.  The whole thing sucks :kicksrock:  

 

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