shader
Footballguy
The reason the USA still can’t beat this virus is because so many people think like you are here. Selfishly. If your whole decision making process comes down to whether YOU will get seriously sick, that’s pretty sad.
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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Big League Chew
- Start date
I’ve seen a few articles that speculate that along with schools reopening, it’s also private gatherings driving the numbers up. People who are doing the right things in public are then ignoring precautions in private settings - parties, BBQs, etc. People are expanding their close contacts outside their immediate families and co-workers and that’s leading to increased spread even as they wear masks in public.
-fish-
Footballguy
The republican candidate for governor in Washington. is running on a platform that having any restrictions is an infringement of our constitutional rights and that businesses should choose for themselves whether they want to have any protections at all. He also claims he’s going to open all schools. His pitch is that wearing a mask is a choice and if some people don’t want to, then everyone else should just stay home.
People like this will ensure that we don’t make progress. He’s losing badly, but he’s got a lot of party support.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
He's flat wrong. State or local governments have public health police powers that go far beyond wearing a mask, including having police officers or sheriffs enforce quarantines and other measures during a public health emergency. See RCW 70.05.070 and associated regs.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I am sure after reading rcw 70.05.070 his supporters will all change their minds.
culdeus
Footballguy
El Paso looks horrible. Geographical restrictions are going to make that area a full disaster. We are very likely to see what happens when a zone runs completely out of ICU beds today. RGV never quite got there and they had access to corpus and houston. EL Paso is way the #### away from anything.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
We've accepted the fact that we should stop at stop signs and red lights. We've accepted the fact that we should park between the yellow lines. Why we can't accept the fact that we should wear masks for several months is beyond me.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Bah, as near as I can tell, you do all your shopping at Kwik Trip. Completely different scenario, GB.
The Commish
Footballguy
Make her get a test before she comes to your house.
If she objects, she can't come....it sucks but parents spend their lives teaching kids that decisions have consequences. That doesn't change when you get old.
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PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
Definitely tell them to get tested prior. It’s super easy these days. If you want to be super safe you can as well.
now see if the people getting married we’re thinking hire someone to do rapid Tests at the wedding
I continue to struggle to wrap my head around how people in health care can be so careless during this pandemic. This weekend one of my good friends went to a mutual friend’s wedding in eastern SD where the virus is spreading rapidly. He’s a pharmacist, she’s a nurse and the bride and groom are nurses as well. Much of the friends invited likely were in health care.
I saw some pictures of the ceremony which was outside and thought maybe they were being responsible. Then came the pictures of the indoor crowded reception. And then the pictures of the elderly relatives. No masks. No social distancing. Nothing different than a normal wedding. It’s frustrating enough seeing the general public doing it but seeing people who should know better is depressing.
I saw some pictures of the ceremony which was outside and thought maybe they were being responsible. Then came the pictures of the indoor crowded reception. And then the pictures of the elderly relatives. No masks. No social distancing. Nothing different than a normal wedding. It’s frustrating enough seeing the general public doing it but seeing people who should know better is depressing.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Make her get a test before she comes to your house.
Sort of reminded me of a situation we had over the summer. My wife's folks (best in-laws/grandparents ever, except...) have a vacation seasonal just 15 minutes away from our cabin. A lot of retirees, events and group campfires every night, etc. They came over weekly the prior summer, but we made it clear in May that we were taking the pandemic seriously, and may need to keep distance until this thing blows over. On some level I understand them... they worked hard for retirement and are not changing a thing - "if we get it, we get it." On the other hand, we weren't too keen on (effectively) inviting their entire campground over to our place. Fast forward to early July, my wife was feeling guilty and called, intending to invite them over for birthday cake for a grandkid. When her mom answered, she said she'd need to call back because she couldn't hear my wife due to the noise at the crowded bar/grill they were at. My wife hung up and said, "yeah, not happening."
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The Commish
Footballguy
Outlined something pretty similar between my wife and her family this summer....unfortunately they are choosing "freedom" over their grandkids....haven't seen them (except for one day) since March...people make weird choices.
Sort of reminded me of a situation we had over the summer. My wife's folks (best in-laws/grandparents ever, except...) have a vacation seasonal just 15 minutes away from our cabin. A lot of retirees, events and group campfires every night, etc. They came over weekly the prior summer, but we made it clear in May that we were taking the pandemic seriously, and may need to keep distance until this thing blows over. On some level I understand them... they worked hard for retirement and are not changing a thing - "if we get it, we get it." On the other hand, we weren't too keen on (effectively) inviting their entire campground over to our place. Fast forward to early July, my wife was feeling guilty and called, intending to invite them over for birthday cake for a grandkid. When her mom answered, she said she'd need to call back because she couldn't hear my wife due to the noise at the crowded bar/grill they were at. My wife hung up and said, "yeah, not happening."
Doug B
Footballguy
Anecdotally: To my experience, with about a dozen extended family and acquaintance -- if someone (a) works in healthcare or an allied profession and (b) DOES NOT and HAS NOT directly cared for a seriously-ill COVID patient ... the chances are very high that that person downplays the dangers of COVID a lot. Might be a cross-sectional thing with a general know-it-all medical mindset** combined with living in a deep-red suburban area.
** Sorry, @Terminalxylem and @gianmarco -- no offense intended. You know what I'm talking about -- e.g. wearing scrubs to work every day (regardless of job or specialty) can make some feel like an authority on all things medical when dealing with laymen.
top dog
Footballguy
This is my sister in law to a tee. She is a nurse at an assisted living home. Gets tested every two weeks or something due to her job. But she down plays it. Just a flu.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Unfortunately, it's not limited to those who don't directly deal with Covid patients. Those that do and still downplay it completely boggle my mind. Luckily, it's not that common, but it exists.
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tri-man 47
Footballguy
Man, I don't get that. I have two grandsons (2 and almost 4), and they mean everything to me. I won't even consider going to a restaurant, movie theater, etc. given the threats that exist. I'll gladly sacrifice a lot if it helps to assure that I can safely see those little rugrats. [An aside: My son has been driving 30 minutes and working remotely from our house. A new trend is for him to bring his older boy on Fridays - we get play time with him while younger brother gets "me" time with mom.]
Marmalade
Footballguy
With new coronavirus cases shattering records on a daily basis, Utah’s hospitals are expected to begin rationing care in a week or two.
That’s the prediction of Greg Bell, president of the Utah Hospital Association, who said administrators of the state’s hospitals confronted Gov. Gary Herbert on Thursday with a grim list: Criteria they propose doctors should use if they are forced to decide which patients can stay in overcrowded intensive care units.
Under the criteria, which would require Herbert’s approval, patients who are getting worse despite receiving intensive care would be moved out first. In the event that two patients' conditions are equal, the young get priority over the old, since older patients are more likely to die.
‘We told him, ‘It looks like we’re going to have to request those be activated if this trend continues,’" Bell recounted, “'and we see no reason why it won’t.'"
Hospitalizations normally rise after the number of new cases increases, and Utah repeatedly set new records for daily case totals last week. At least two Utah hospitals have opened overflow ICUs this month.
The state’s hospitals can shift patients around to free up bed space, Bell said, and the state has long planned to open a field hospital at the Mountain America Expo Center in Sandy if necessary.
But one of the defining features of intensive care is access to doctors and nurses with specialty training — and opening new beds does not mean those health care workers can staff them.
Bell said it’s now all but inevitable that hospitals will need to enact their triage protocols, known as “crisis standards of care.”
“I haven’t said, ‘It’s gonna happen’ — until [Thursday] night,” Bell said. “I told the governor, ‘It’s gonna happen. We’re going to be back here asking for crisis standards.’ ”
That’s the prediction of Greg Bell, president of the Utah Hospital Association, who said administrators of the state’s hospitals confronted Gov. Gary Herbert on Thursday with a grim list: Criteria they propose doctors should use if they are forced to decide which patients can stay in overcrowded intensive care units.
Under the criteria, which would require Herbert’s approval, patients who are getting worse despite receiving intensive care would be moved out first. In the event that two patients' conditions are equal, the young get priority over the old, since older patients are more likely to die.
‘We told him, ‘It looks like we’re going to have to request those be activated if this trend continues,’" Bell recounted, “'and we see no reason why it won’t.'"
Hospitalizations normally rise after the number of new cases increases, and Utah repeatedly set new records for daily case totals last week. At least two Utah hospitals have opened overflow ICUs this month.
The state’s hospitals can shift patients around to free up bed space, Bell said, and the state has long planned to open a field hospital at the Mountain America Expo Center in Sandy if necessary.
But one of the defining features of intensive care is access to doctors and nurses with specialty training — and opening new beds does not mean those health care workers can staff them.
Bell said it’s now all but inevitable that hospitals will need to enact their triage protocols, known as “crisis standards of care.”
“I haven’t said, ‘It’s gonna happen’ — until [Thursday] night,” Bell said. “I told the governor, ‘It’s gonna happen. We’re going to be back here asking for crisis standards.’ ”
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Can you explain why this would need the governor's approval? Is there something unique in Utah where the governor is basically in charge of every hospital and choices of procedures?
Cold Dead Hands
Footballguy
I would imagine, the translated version is something like “Your policies are going to create a situation where we have to choose who lives and dies. This is your mess so we are making this a public request to you, the governor, so people know the responsible person for said ‘death panel’ decisions. Thank you for your consideration.”
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The Commish
Footballguy
I don't get it either. There is also a history between my wife and her family. She grew up in a small town and wanted more for herself than what it had to offer. They wanted her to stay at home. She wanted to have a career etc. So there's always been this "selfish" label they've put on her for "leaving" them. It's pretty messed up. That's part of it (they think her not allowing the kids there is "selfish" on her part).tri-man 47 said:
culdeus
Footballguy
Two TSAs in Texas now completely at capacity. So far there has not been mobile ICU setup in either. Forcing round the clock flights to DFW for now for those patients.
And Texas isn't even considered a hot spot based on R0. That's one of the problems with treating each state as it's own ecosystem, it covers up the real problems. Austin is at all time lows, Houston looks good. So that basically covers up the issues in West Texas which is the size of Pennsylvania and has the population of more than 6 states.
And Texas isn't even considered a hot spot based on R0. That's one of the problems with treating each state as it's own ecosystem, it covers up the real problems. Austin is at all time lows, Houston looks good. So that basically covers up the issues in West Texas which is the size of Pennsylvania and has the population of more than 6 states.
beer 30
Footballguy
Yea, we should be. There are still runs on products at the local Walmart, cleaning supplies have never been restocked. The shelves fill up one day and are gone the next. They fill up more regularly but they are still bare most of the time. Go online and check out pasta prices, at least for us, the local Walmart & Amazon have pricing ranging from sorta normal ($1/bx) to wtf ($21/bx) and everywhere in between. If another wave hits I'd suspect we'd be right back to rationing and being out of products just like we were in March & April.
Well I guess call me selfish then too. I'm focused on me and mine at this point. I won't/can't argue any more with the "masks inhibit my freedom's" folks so live your life. I wish you well, hope you don't get it but not losing sleep if you do. Me & mine are doing the right things, if you aren't, well...whatever.
And just to be clear, if you think you can make through catching this, the stats support you. Sure there are anomalies but there are with every disease/virus. Grue is one of the last people I would be concerned about even if he did catch this thing. He's also not going to endanger other people if he's feeling not well. I don't think you are implying that but you're wrong if you are.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
beer 30
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
It's been said, but IMO this is the line of thinking that is a big reason we are where we are and a reason why this is such a sore topic for people. I don't think it's mask/no mask anymore, it feels like a breakdown of if you can use empathy and think of community as a whole or you can't. That's not politics, that is a fundamental difference in thinking and core values. Saying f-it, I'm not going to get this is ignoring anybody else's situation around you, and IMO what was asked of us is not wasn't a huge ask - keep apart from each other, wash your hands, wear a mask. What happens when we are asked as a country to do something really difficult?
I said this in the other thread, but there is also too much focus on just physical health and whether or not you will just get sick from this or not. Despite ignoring others situation and health, it is also ignoring other people's jobs, businesses, education, etc.. People saying f-it are saying they don't care that our kids are staring at a year + of not seeing friends, living their lives, and losing out on their education. Saying F-it is saying you don't care that you might infect an employee at a business and put that business in danger of having an outbreak and having to close their doors. All these things and others, along with the health threat immediate and long term are things we need to be considering.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
Nah, I think both make valid points. Of course, ideologically @shader is right. The problem is a large enough percentage of our society quite simply wasn't ever going to take the necessary precautions to try and contain this thing. So the ideals are essentially meaningless since that approach was never going to be effective. So we are all tasked with making the best decisions we can given our environment and the information available.
gruecd
Footballguy
I see where you're coming from, but I strongly disagree with the bolded. Washing hands or wearing a mask? Agreed, not a big ask. Keeping apart from each other? A VERY big ask, given people's intrinsic need for socialization and community. And to say that there is TOO MUCH focus on physical health? Our country (collectively) is so fat and out of shape that it's ridiculous, but we've "somehow" gotten to the point that "all body types are OK." Two of the main co-morbidities for Covid are obesity and diabetes (which is often caused by the former). This thing wouldn't be killing nearly as many people if we'd just take care of our damn selves. We need to place MORE emphasis on physical health as a preventative measure. Way more.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Can't go back in time and fix that now, during an active pandemic.
...
[not_in_response_to_gruecd_because_he_didn't_say_this_out_loud]
To put it bluntly, fat people don't deserve to get hit and hard and/or die from COVID. There's no moral right or wrong viz a viz catching a disease and being variably susceptible to the effects. Others MMV -- I'm sure many runners and gym-goers have strong, draconian opinions about this kind of stuff.
[/not_in_response_to_gruecd_because_he_didn't_say_this_out_loud]
Desert_Power
Footballguy
I know the news/studies on this can change fast, but isn't asymptomatic spread is still a thing?
ETA: Not taking a shot at Grue at all. Fatigue is real and we're all feeling it to a degree.
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Doug B
Footballguy
I'd go so far as to argue that spreading the illness asymptomatically is THE thing, not merely A thing.
That's something that that many young and/or healthy people mentally gloss over -- healthy folks absolutely can catch AND SPREAD COVID-19 just like an overweight person or an old person. Comorbidity concerns deal with the effects of the infection, not the susceptibility of getting infected itself. "Not having symptoms" means little about whether or not you're carrying and shedding the virus at any given time.
And that's why you don't think of it in terms of personal risk ("... more chance of a car accident than getting really sick from COVID"). Community risk has to come first, second, third, and probably fourth, too.
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gruecd
Footballguy
They don't deserve it, no, but I also don't deserve to have to put my life on hold because half the country (conservatively) chooses not to take care of itself. Obviously this is waaaaay oversimplifying things, and there are people who aren't physically fit through no fault of their own, etc. And we're obviously not talking about the elderly. It's not about deserving it or not deserving it, but let's not ignore the fact that there's a large percentage of the population that's brought this upon itself.
And yes, we're in the middle of an active pandemic. But why no PSAs educating people on the benefits of being fit when it comes to fighting off illness and disease? Teaching them the dangers of being unfit as it relates to Covid? Encouraging them to use the extra downtime to get out and be active, cook healthier meals at home, etc.?
To be clear, I'm taking all the necessary precautions and being way safer than most. But the lack of personal responsibility in this country (as it relates to Covid and everything else) is astonishing to me.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
That's not what I was talking about, and I don't disagree with that. What I meant was just talking points that only seem to bring up if you will or will not die from it, or will or will not get sick. That's what I meant on the discussion being focused on the physical aspects of this disease.
I get your point about the the social aspect and that is what I am touching on now. The big ask is now as we are heading into 6months to a year of no groups. Hindsight and all, but now that 3-4 weeks of a strong shutdown and stay at home looks like a lot less of an ask, and that is what a lot of people were saying then and it wasn't hard to see this coming if we didn't.
Doug B
Footballguy
That's not why you're life is on hold. If all adults Americans between the ages of 15 and 70 were world-class triathletes, our lives would still be on hold pretty much the same way. Great cardiovascular health is not the magic COVID bullet it's being made out to be -- yes, your odds are better, but not so much better that you can rely on shrugging off a COVID infection.
No. This did not happen and, respectfully, I will not agree on this point. That's a statement of direct blame.
If you were talking about bringing premature heart disease upon themselves, or Type 2 diabetes or things like that, I could agree. But no one's personal health plan accounted for COVID-19 this time last year. It couldn't have been seen coming, and again ... physical fitness is not a universal infection-disease safeguard.
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gruecd
Footballguy
You're right, it absolutely does not keep you from getting infected. But while I have absolutely no statistical data to back this up, I would guess that the odds are extremely low that it's much worse than a bad case of the flu for a person under 70 who's otherwise physically fit. Not zero obviously, but extremely low.
And I didn't mean that they brought the virus on themselves, but rather the severity of its effects. It doesn't take Nostradamus to know that you're better positioned to fight off ANY illness (foreseen or otherwise) if you take care of yourself.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
Only a fool would argue this was a bad idea on March 26th. We're a nation full of fools though. Now it's October 26th and we're not surprisingly in a worse spot because of just that - fools. Like so many others, we gave the country until May to get their #### together. I knew we wouldn't, but we felt like it was the right thing to do so that's what we did. When we predictably did not get our #### together we lifted the lid on our levels of activity. Sure, we made adjustments to how we went about our previously normal lives - and will continue to do so - but we can't fix stupid. And we are not going to hold ourselves hostage because we are a nation full of stupid people.
Europe thought they had the virus contained and now it is exploding just like in the US or worse. Unless we follow what China is doing I don't see how this can be stopped without lockdowns that are enforced and that will not happen.
MAC_32
Footballguy
No one in the right mind will argue that there is any magic bullet to this thing. Substantially changing your own unique probabilities though - from everything I've gathered this is not debatable. And this isn't unique to covid - it's relevant for any illness. The problem is the vast majority of the people in this country are not healthy. Most by their own poor decision making.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Cut the fatality rate here by a large margin and you think that it would be handled the same?
No way.
culdeus
Footballguy
The right way to frame it I think it something like this
The net result is we are now keeping a stronger lockdown in place to allow for "self-at-risk" individuals to behave as if their risk is baseline. All this to keep beds open.
I think it's right to feel some animosity to those people, the 50yo male at 240# being anti-mask and attending a lot of in person events. Yeah, #### that guy specifically.
- Being old makes you at greater risk to die of this thing (Easily the #1 mortality factor)
- Being Fat and to some extent in poor cardio health matters also
- We have limited hospital capacity to deal with this thing
The net result is we are now keeping a stronger lockdown in place to allow for "self-at-risk" individuals to behave as if their risk is baseline. All this to keep beds open.
I think it's right to feel some animosity to those people, the 50yo male at 240# being anti-mask and attending a lot of in person events. Yeah, #### that guy specifically.
gruecd
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Yeah, but you're throwing three things into a hat together that don't really belong. Different life perspectives, I guess.
gruecd
Footballguy
How so? If he chooses to be unhealthy but stays at home or wears a mask, then his bad health choices are much less likely to affect others (cause him to catch Covid, get seriously sick, and take up a hospital bed).
beer 30
Footballguy
Yea and I think this is what Grue is trying to point out. Regardless of your stance on the virus, the vast majority of our populace is fat and out of shape, both huge comorbidities that effect how your body handles this virus. We have to make a case for promoting healthier lifestyles to combat this in conjunction with the other protocols we've seen that have an impact (masks, hand washing, distancing).
I'm encouraged by the amount of people I see out and about now as opposed to the 'before time' but it's still a small minority as opposed to the entire population. We've gotten better at treatment, why are we not promoting a healthier lifestyle as hard as we are other methods? Afraid of offending people? Screw PC when it comes to this. And for the record, I'm considered moderately obese according to my ####### scale every got damn morning I get on it so I'm not tossing rocks.
gruecd
Footballguy
culdeus
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
I gave up being nice about physical fitness years ago. Being nice about it is generally not effective. It's an enabler.
#### or get off the pot.
