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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Big League Chew
- Start date
DallasDMac
Footballguy
This was what I said to the wife. They'll have to employ them while the crisis is on-going due to shortages. But once vaccines are widespread and things return to a sense of normalcy, it will make it fairly easy to know who to let go first.
Pipes
Footballguy
it's due to their age. Many healthcare workers are younger women in their child bearing years who are concerned about how a fast tracked vaccine could impact that. For them the side effects of the vaccine could be worse than Rona itself. I know a couple of nurses and this scares them.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I honestly dont understand how people can be surprised by this. It is an industry that is used to seeing things move at the speed of molasses.
They are used to every dumb question or variable possible being studied in these trials.
That didnt happen here.
I have already said I would take it in a heartbeat, but I would be lying if I didnt at least think there was a possibility of some long term immune system side effects. I am of the opinion that I still want the damn shot, the risk is low, and the only way to learn about any side effects is to have more people injected, so let me at it!
The Z Machine
Footballguy
The Z Machine
Footballguy
My wife works at a university office building adjacent to a large hospital. She has to get a flu shot each year, otherwise she cannot enter her building (offices + classrooms, no medical facilities). I am certain that she will be obligated to get a COVID vax.
I don't see why other employers cannot handle this the same way. "You want to come on campus and work in the office? Get a vax. If you don't want to get a vax, work from home." (and get crappy assignments and no career advancement, but that part won't be said)
I’ve read a few stories stating that employers are within their rights to require vaccination. I don’t think most will. Places like hospitals where it really should be mandatory need all the bodies they can find right now, so sending someone home for refusing the get the vaccine isn’t a great option now. Once it gets to the general public, I could see retailers like Costco and Target doing it, but right now I think we will see a lot of places strongly suggesting all employees get it.
beer 30
Footballguy
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Have run into this many, many times in real life. People in the medical fields and especially medical employees removed from direct patient care (e.g. front-desk staff, but also way too many RNs) tend to think COVID-19 is overblown. New Orleans is a blue city, but most of the immediate suburbs are blood-red ... so maybe the overlaying political climate leads to this.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
But they've seen the devastation of the virus first hand. That is definitely a known factor. I can see SOME not wanting it. But at the numbers being quoted above? It is definitely surprising to many of us, I guarantee.
Edit: After reading Doug's post above, if the numbers INCLUDE folks like back-office workers, etc., then that makes much more sense.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Exactly. People are reading "Only certified for 3 months!" as "At Day 91, all antibodies POOF! Vanish into thin air and your immune system forgets how to make more." The medical community, IMHO, is being too cautious with the messaging.
top dog
Footballguy
Same thing with my siter-in-law. She's a nurse at a nursing home. Not required. She is debating on whether the risk outweighs the rewards on getting it at the end of the month. I told her if she decides not to, bring it on home to me. I'll take it!
Have another nurse friend on facebook in same boat. She is debating. People are on there telling her that they heard it causes fertility issues.
Doug B
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
It's not the same nurses. I would bet that in any overrun hospital, they don't have to look to hard for "crying nurses". But in any hospital that's less than overrun -- even if they're running at 95% capacity for weeks on end -- there are likely still a big chunk of RNs in denial mentally (or at least they won't acknowledge otherwise out loud).
Doug B
Footballguy
[notaimedatpipes]
What were the trials for, then? Why do so many think there's all these secret side effects that are for sure going to be suddenly coming out of nowhere?
And yeah ... those poor souls who are essentially allergic to air and go into anaphylactic shock at the drop of a hat? And the few dozen worldwide who have reacted badly to the vaccine so far (if that many)? That ain't you, unless your allergist in on speed dial and you carry a half-dozen Epi-pens at all times.
[/notaimedatpipes]
Capella
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Filing clerks and appointment-setters shouldn't be counted among "frontline healthcare workers" ... but I really don't know the methodology behind those polls.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Remember when all the talk was immunity only lasted for 3 months because of antibody drop off?
Good times.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Not sure if anybody with kids is having problems getting their children to keep masks on, but scented fabric puffy paint has made masks kind of a fun thing for my daughter.
I enjoy the smells myself.
I enjoy the smells myself.
I don’t think it’s the medical community putting the message out, it’s someone stretching a truthful statement to try and raise concern.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
We are back to the part where my mind is incapable of grasping the concept. Someone who has had medical training, someone versed in science and fact. How is it that these people are still in denial based on the rantings of those with no scientific background whatsoever given all the evidence before them on a daily basis? It is just mind-boggling to me.
Doug B
Footballguy
"Some people caught COVID twice!!!"
(Just like every other human viral disease ... 99.999% will develop long-lasting immunity, but a small handful won't. That small handful makes news.)
beer 30
Footballguy
I think if it you use it just about any scenario to stop someone from doing something they normally would, there will be a lawyer knocking on your door within the week. Just my opinion.
As with anything, it's not black & white for every scenario. Some are but I think as with anything, there is a ton more gray. With the current environment regarding the virus, masks, vaccines I think there will be as many people lining up to sue employers/business's for precluding them from working/shopping/doing whatever you normally would do as there are lining up to get the shot.
beer 30
Footballguy
Sadly, this is the norm today. The vocal minority is what gets pushed to the top because it's controversial and it generates interest.
Doug B
Footballguy
Not attempting to besmirch an undeniably noble profession:
Nursing training is not really scientific training. Nurses train to do a lot of grunt work, and to do it as efficiently as humanly possible. The underlying science behind the training is, at best, glossed over. It's a lot less important in nursing to understand the whys and wherefores -- just do as you were taught. Or do what the doctor says.
Now then. Some nurses are curious sorts who pay close attention to what's going on around them in the hospital. They'll talk to the doctors and ask insightful questions, and they'll accumulate a lot of good practical knowledge throughout their careers. But that's far, far from all nurses.
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Pipes
Footballguy
No idea on the backstory on this but just see it's being reported.
Please everyone be more cool. And be extra respectful of nurses.
Doug B
Footballguy
I’ve shared my frustration a few times of seeing classmates from pharmacy school and other medical professionals just being ignorant, holding large weddings, etc. I’m afraid to ask the other pharmacist I work with about the vaccine because I don’t want to hear his answer. He’s been in denial about it for awhile and has shared that opinion with customers as well. His wife has been suffering with health issues through the whole pandemic and was recently diagnosed with a rare autoimmune disease. I hope he plans on getting vaccinated to protect her but I’m not going to ask and be disappointed.
Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
I don't think it's necessarily denial, but simply the fact that people's risk curves with and without the vaccine are different depending on their specific situation. From a purely self-interested standpoint, the cost-benefit analysis of chances of severe Covid vs. chances of adverse reaction to a vaccine is drastically different for a 65 year old with health problems vs. a healthy 25 year old. If you add in that the 25 year old has been working in a high risk environment for months without getting sick, you could see how they would be less likely to jump at the chance to take a fast-tracked vaccine. Not saying they're right, but you can see the underpinnings of their stance.
Capella
Footballguy
He’s not allowed to have an opinion? He said it was a noble profession, but they are in fact not scientists. Sheesh.
Cold Dead Hands
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
Haha, I just don’t get what was wrong with his post. Totally respectful, said it’s a noble profession but they are not the science minds behind this. I think they are true heroes, but that doesn’t mean anything said there was untrue. Wild.
E-Z Glider
Footballguy
Every credible news source has said the fertility rumor originated from a fake news story that was circulated on Facebook.
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Doug B
Footballguy
This is a pretty good point. You could probably even remove the age component -- the 50-year-old who has been working in a high risk environment for months without getting sick ... that person might also downplay the general risks of COVID.
Pipes
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
I don't mind someone taking offense, or even someone reporting it. I'm just sorry that engagement wasn't sought.
Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
Yes I think prolonged exposure to risks in your environment is a real factor. We had a hailstorm last year so I've been seeing roofing crews for the past few months. I see some of those guys literally running across steep-pitched roofs with a nail gun. There's no way they were that risk tolerant when they put their first few roofs on.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
Reposted from someone I know:
Do I feel comfortable getting the new coronavirus vaccine?
Yes!
As a physician, I thought I would take a moment to explain why I feel completely comfortable getting vaccinated.
Because vaccines are designed to protect you from a disease you do not have, the bar for vaccine safety is set extremely high. The vaccine experts and infectious disease doctors who are responsible for approving the vaccines have chosen to dedicate their lives to protecting the public from disease. They REALLY don’t want to approve a vaccine before they are very convinced that a vaccine is safe and effective, in part because if they approve it prematurely and there turns out to be a problem it will erode public trust in this vaccine and all others, too. Three things really helped speed up production of this vaccine: 1) advances in vaccine technology, 2) a LOT of money, which facilitated important but expensive large phase 3 trials, and paid for vaccines to be produced before we even knew if they would work, so that they would be ready in the event of good news, and 3) a LOT of disease in the community, which greatly sped up the process of determining whether the vaccines could protect you from this disease.
Between Moderna and Pfizer, over 74,000 people have participated in the phase 3 trials. That means that 37,000 people have gotten the active vaccines (the other half got placebo). Some folks had mild side effects, but not one of these 37,000 people had a serious safety event.
But vaccine makers don’t stop monitoring for safety with completion of the phase 3 trial. They continue to monitor vaccines even after release to pick up on any adverse events so rare that they can’t be picked up among the tens of thousands of people who participate in the phase 3 trial. Vaccine adverse events generally happen within days to weeks of getting the vaccine, and are rare after 6-8 weeks. By the time this vaccine is available to the general public in the spring tens of millions of people will be past this 6-8 week window, so even if there were an extremely rare adverse event, we would know about it by then.
Furthermore, I know that my chances of dying from covid as a generally healthy 40-something female are about 1-in-250 to 1-in-1000. That’s not a rare adverse event. And that doesn’t even include my much greater chances of other serious but non-fatal consequences. Getting coronavirus is unquestionably FAR more dangerous to me than the vaccine.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines use mRNA. Your body then uses the mRNA in the vaccine to make copies of a spike protein that is on the coronavirus. Your immune system learns to recognize and attack this spike, so that if you happen to encounter the real virus, your body is ready to quickly recognize and attack the virus before an infection can take hold. A few notes about the mRNA: 1. It never enters the nucleus of your cell; and it does not interact with your DNA in any way. 2. It is completely degraded within hours to days, so it is around long enough to tell the cells to make some spike proteins, and then it’s gone.
The more I read about these vaccines, the more impressed I am with the data and the results. Everything I have seen suggests that these vaccines will safely and effectively protect you from a disease that has already killed nearly 1-in-1000 people in our country, with no signs of letting up. I couldn’t be more excited about the safety and efficacy of these vaccines, and I will get my vaccine as soon as I am eligible!
This image below is a great depiction of how effective these vaccines are.
Graph
Do I feel comfortable getting the new coronavirus vaccine?
Yes!
As a physician, I thought I would take a moment to explain why I feel completely comfortable getting vaccinated.
Because vaccines are designed to protect you from a disease you do not have, the bar for vaccine safety is set extremely high. The vaccine experts and infectious disease doctors who are responsible for approving the vaccines have chosen to dedicate their lives to protecting the public from disease. They REALLY don’t want to approve a vaccine before they are very convinced that a vaccine is safe and effective, in part because if they approve it prematurely and there turns out to be a problem it will erode public trust in this vaccine and all others, too. Three things really helped speed up production of this vaccine: 1) advances in vaccine technology, 2) a LOT of money, which facilitated important but expensive large phase 3 trials, and paid for vaccines to be produced before we even knew if they would work, so that they would be ready in the event of good news, and 3) a LOT of disease in the community, which greatly sped up the process of determining whether the vaccines could protect you from this disease.
Between Moderna and Pfizer, over 74,000 people have participated in the phase 3 trials. That means that 37,000 people have gotten the active vaccines (the other half got placebo). Some folks had mild side effects, but not one of these 37,000 people had a serious safety event.
But vaccine makers don’t stop monitoring for safety with completion of the phase 3 trial. They continue to monitor vaccines even after release to pick up on any adverse events so rare that they can’t be picked up among the tens of thousands of people who participate in the phase 3 trial. Vaccine adverse events generally happen within days to weeks of getting the vaccine, and are rare after 6-8 weeks. By the time this vaccine is available to the general public in the spring tens of millions of people will be past this 6-8 week window, so even if there were an extremely rare adverse event, we would know about it by then.
Furthermore, I know that my chances of dying from covid as a generally healthy 40-something female are about 1-in-250 to 1-in-1000. That’s not a rare adverse event. And that doesn’t even include my much greater chances of other serious but non-fatal consequences. Getting coronavirus is unquestionably FAR more dangerous to me than the vaccine.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines use mRNA. Your body then uses the mRNA in the vaccine to make copies of a spike protein that is on the coronavirus. Your immune system learns to recognize and attack this spike, so that if you happen to encounter the real virus, your body is ready to quickly recognize and attack the virus before an infection can take hold. A few notes about the mRNA: 1. It never enters the nucleus of your cell; and it does not interact with your DNA in any way. 2. It is completely degraded within hours to days, so it is around long enough to tell the cells to make some spike proteins, and then it’s gone.
The more I read about these vaccines, the more impressed I am with the data and the results. Everything I have seen suggests that these vaccines will safely and effectively protect you from a disease that has already killed nearly 1-in-1000 people in our country, with no signs of letting up. I couldn’t be more excited about the safety and efficacy of these vaccines, and I will get my vaccine as soon as I am eligible!
This image below is a great depiction of how effective these vaccines are.
Graph
gianmarco
Footballguy
Here is the data from the FDA on this
It's long and most won't be easily understood, but just thought I'd link if interested in looking at some of this information directly.
It's long and most won't be easily understood, but just thought I'd link if interested in looking at some of this information directly.
People can have an opinion and be cool. As I said, I don't know anything about what's been talked about and don't have time to learn today. I just know it's being reported so I posted what I did and asked people to be cool. Please help us. Thanks. 
The Commish
Footballguy
It seems to me that very few understand how groundbreaking these vaccine approaches are. These aren't vaccines like the vaccines we are familiar with (at least two of them aren't). We need a SIGNIFICANT attempt to educate people on this, including our politicians. In my state our governor is ALREADY saying "well, one dose might be enough".....seriously!!! WTF!!!!!!
If there was ever a time our federal government needed to step up, it's RIGHT NOW....deliver a clear concise message with the support of the vaccine creators...EVERYONE has to be on the same page or it's just going to be a HUGE waste of time, resources and money. Now, I'm worried we're going to screw this up.
ETA: By the way....I have an annotated copy of the research done for the Pfizer trial....I don't know the best way to put it out for you guys to take a look at. One of my wife's colleagues did it and makes weeding through the report much easier. Any ideas on how to get it out there? Are any of you interested in it?
If there was ever a time our federal government needed to step up, it's RIGHT NOW....deliver a clear concise message with the support of the vaccine creators...EVERYONE has to be on the same page or it's just going to be a HUGE waste of time, resources and money. Now, I'm worried we're going to screw this up.
ETA: By the way....I have an annotated copy of the research done for the Pfizer trial....I don't know the best way to put it out for you guys to take a look at. One of my wife's colleagues did it and makes weeding through the report much easier. Any ideas on how to get it out there? Are any of you interested in it?
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Doug B
Footballguy
If you've already got a free Google account (if you have a Gmail box, you've got a Google account), you can post it to a linkable page on Google Drive.
The Commish
Footballguy
There's a mutation that's been discovered already? 
The Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, our house is fully google
Thought there might be a way to do it outside my personal account...not an issue though...I can put it out there that way if anyone's interested.
Capella
Footballguy
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
There have been like 20 mutations.There's a mutation that's been discovered already?
Capella
Footballguy
From what I read though, the vax is easy to change to account for these. Somebody said it’s like changing the lock on your door.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Yea, none of these mutations should impact the vaccine at this point. Apparently the spike protein has several attachment points or something something.
