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@Terminalxylem (and others in the know), have you heard anything corroborating this? This could be huge if trials turn out to confirm their theories. 

tl;dr:  Team sets out to find approved drugs that can interfere with the way the SARS-CoV-2 virus binds to cells. Blocking that connection essentially locks a cellular doorway that inhibits the virus’s transmission to the respiratory system. -- they found 3: Hydroxyzine, sold as Atarax, and the nasal spray azelastine, which are prescription medications. The third one, diphenhydramine is sold over-the-counter as Benadryl, a treatment for cold and allergy symptoms.

Existing antihistamine drugs show effectiveness against COVID-19 virus in cell testing

 

Start hiding Benadryl?? 

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My dad has been sick for a few weeks.  My mom called me today to say he was about to die.  I said some final words to him and he could hear me but was unable to respond.  He passed a short time later.

Not to derail anything, but we had our baby last night! She's doing amazingly well. Due to the hospital's pandemic policies, I had to leave her right after my wife was released from recovery. I can't

On a positive note, my wife gave birth to our first child this morning!! We were expecting our daughter to be born in the first week of April, which does not align very well if this hospital sees a ma

9 hours ago, Nathan R. Jessep said:

@Terminalxylem (and others in the know), have you heard anything corroborating this? This could be huge if trials turn out to confirm their theories. 

tl;dr:  Team sets out to find approved drugs that can interfere with the way the SARS-CoV-2 virus binds to cells. Blocking that connection essentially locks a cellular doorway that inhibits the virus’s transmission to the respiratory system. -- they found 3: Hydroxyzine, sold as Atarax, and the nasal spray azelastine, which are prescription medications. The third one, diphenhydramine is sold over-the-counter as Benadryl, a treatment for cold and allergy symptoms.

Existing antihistamine drugs show effectiveness against COVID-19 virus in cell testing

 

Start hiding Benadryl?? 

I remember seeing something early on about antihistamines, and a litany of other "old" drugs being studied to prevent/treat Covid. These included ivermectin, melatonin and atorvastatin mentioned upthread, as well as hydroxychloroquine.

Some of those were identified as potential therapies based on computer modeling, which checks for 3-D interactions between drug molecules and SARS-CoV-2 virus, or its binding sites. If it looks like a given drug will interfere the virus, the next step is in vitro testing on animal, then human cell lines. But none of that is sufficient to prove efficacy in vivo. Interestingly, the link you've provided shows researchers are also working in reverse, by assessing rates of covid among people taking common meds, then trying to prove they do something in the lab.

As you probably know, the standard for clinical efficacy is randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled trials. Collecting that data usually takes months-years, assuming funding is available and an adequate sample population can be recruited.

While it's nice to study drugs with a proven safety record, one should be careful before jumping to conclusions based on pre-clinical data. Killing virus in cell culture hardly equates to the complex environment encountered in a living being. Ensuring adequate drug delivery to the site of infection is one major hurdle, as many lab studies employ drug concentrations severalfold higher than are typically achieved in vivo. Likewise for your link, it's important to understand correlation doesn't mean causation, but it's clever to look for biologic plausibility after identifying meds from clinical databases.

I understand desperate times call for desperate measures, but taking a bunch of incompletely studied meds and supplements is not without risk. In addition to cost, potential for toxicity/side effects and drug interactions still needs to be considered, as well as diverting medications from their intended usage. Lastly, it's not inconceivable someone taking one of these readily available "miracle cures" will alter their behavior in ways which promote SARS-CoV-2 spread.

As I responded to Culdeus, I favor the primum non nocere approach - even if something appears benign, I'd rather avoid the potential to cause harm with drugs/supplements that aren't clinically vetted. But it is clear all clinicians don't share this philosophy, and there's a multibillion dollar supplement/nutraceutical industry committed to providing unproven treatments to the masses.

 

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26 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

I remember seeing something early on about antihistamines, and a litany of other "old" drugs being studied to prevent/treat Covid. These included ivermectin, melatonin and atorvastatin mentioned upthread, as well as hydroxychloroquine.

Some of those were identified as potential therapies based on computer modeling, which checks for 3-D interactions between drug molecules and SARS-CoV-2 virus, or its binding sites. If it looks like a given drug will interfere the virus, the next step is in vitro testing on animal, then human cell lines. But none of that is sufficient to prove efficacy in vivo. Interestingly, the link you've provided shows researchers are also working in reverse, by assessing rates of covid among people taking common meds, then trying to prove they do something in the lab.

As you probably know, the standard for clinical efficacy is randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled trials. Collecting that data usually takes months-years, assuming funding is available and an adequate sample population can be recruited.

While it's nice to study drugs with a proven safety record, one should be careful before jumping to conclusions based on pre-clinical data. Killing virus in cell culture hardly equates to the complex environment encountered in a living being. Ensuring adequate drug delivery to the site of infection is one major hurdle, as many lab studies employ drug concentrations severalfold higher than are typically achieved in vitro. Likewise for your link, it's important to understand correlation doesn't mean causation, but it's clever to look for biologic plausibility after identifying meds from clinical databases.

I understand desperate times call for desperate measures, but taking a bunch of incompletely studied meds and supplements is not without risk. In addition to cost, potential for toxicity/side effects and drug interactions still needs to be considered, as well as diverting medications from their intended usage. Lastly, it's not inconceivable someone taking one of these readily available "miracle cures" will alter there behavior in ways which promote SARS-CoV-2 spread.

As I responded to Culdeus, I favor the primum non nocere approach - even if something appears benign, I'd rather avoid the potential to cause harm with drugs/supplements that aren't clinically vetted. But it is clear all clinicians don't share this philosophy, and there's a multibillion dollar supplement/nutraceutical industry committed to providing unproven treatments to the masses.

 

Thanks for your insight in this thread. Always nice to read a well reasoned and concise explanation of something beyond most of us.

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Quick question to anybody in healthcare or anybody that has a better understanding of molecular biology than I.    Several weeks ago on a local news station they were talking about a product that could help in general in regards to respiratory health that could also play a part in helping prevent getting covid.  I ended up ordering 3 sets of them for myself and family and I got the confirmation that they are shipping this week.   @Terminalxylem --if possible--I'd like your opinion on if this "Fend" device has some promise or if I basically wasted $200.  Lol. 

https://www.hellofend.com/pages/about

https://www.biospace.com/article/releases/pulmatrix-announces-commercial-launch-of-fend-an-otc-nasal-hygiene-product-proven-to-reduce-airborne-respiratory-droplets-with-partner-sensory-cloud/

 

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Wish I could be more upbeat about the whole vaccine thing but, knowing I'm probably six months way from getting it, it's hard for me get excited about it personally. In fact, the thought of six more months, and now having a known timetable so far down the road, is actually somewhat depressing. I had been hoping for spring.

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@ProFootballDoc David Chao said on his podcast today that the vacine has only been certified for 3 months of effectiveness at this point. Will it last 6 months, possibly but as of now 3 months is all that Pfizer has certified for.

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4 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

I remember seeing something early on about antihistamines, and a litany of other "old" drugs being studied to prevent/treat Covid. These included ivermectin, melatonin and atorvastatin mentioned upthread, as well as hydroxychloroquine.

Some of those were identified as potential therapies based on computer modeling, which checks for 3-D interactions between drug molecules and SARS-CoV-2 virus, or its binding sites. If it looks like a given drug will interfere the virus, the next step is in vitro testing on animal, then human cell lines. But none of that is sufficient to prove efficacy in vivo. Interestingly, the link you've provided shows researchers are also working in reverse, by assessing rates of covid among people taking common meds, then trying to prove they do something in the lab.

As you probably know, the standard for clinical efficacy is randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled trials. Collecting that data usually takes months-years, assuming funding is available and an adequate sample population can be recruited.

While it's nice to study drugs with a proven safety record, one should be careful before jumping to conclusions based on pre-clinical data. Killing virus in cell culture hardly equates to the complex environment encountered in a living being. Ensuring adequate drug delivery to the site of infection is one major hurdle, as many lab studies employ drug concentrations severalfold higher than are typically achieved in vitro. Likewise for your link, it's important to understand correlation doesn't mean causation, but it's clever to look for biologic plausibility after identifying meds from clinical databases.

I understand desperate times call for desperate measures, but taking a bunch of incompletely studied meds and supplements is not without risk. In addition to cost, potential for toxicity/side effects and drug interactions still needs to be considered, as well as diverting medications from their intended usage. Lastly, it's not inconceivable someone taking one of these readily available "miracle cures" will alter there behavior in ways which promote SARS-CoV-2 spread.

As I responded to Culdeus, I favor the primum non nocere approach - even if something appears benign, I'd rather avoid the potential to cause harm with drugs/supplements that aren't clinically vetted. But it is clear all clinicians don't share this philosophy, and there's a multibillion dollar supplement/nutraceutical industry committed to providing unproven treatments to the masses.

 

Exactly why I asked. Thank you for the insight! 

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3 hours ago, jvdesigns2002 said:

Quick question to anybody in healthcare or anybody that has a better understanding of molecular biology than I.    Several weeks ago on a local news station they were talking about a product that could help in general in regards to respiratory health that could also play a part in helping prevent getting covid.  I ended up ordering 3 sets of them for myself and family and I got the confirmation that they are shipping this week.   @Terminalxylem --if possible--I'd like your opinion on if this "Fend" device has some promise or if I basically wasted $200.  Lol. 

https://www.hellofend.com/pages/about

https://www.biospace.com/article/releases/pulmatrix-announces-commercial-launch-of-fend-an-otc-nasal-hygiene-product-proven-to-reduce-airborne-respiratory-droplets-with-partner-sensory-cloud/

 

I don't know anything about that device, nor the technology behind it. I can read some more, but my gut is you paid for something that sounds decent on paper, but might not make a difference IRL. I'd be surprised if there is enough high quality clinical data to say one way or the other.

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3 hours ago, Penguin said:

@ProFootballDoc David Chao said on his podcast today that the vacine has only been certified for 3 months of effectiveness at this point. Will it last 6 months, possibly but as of now 3 months is all that Pfizer has certified for.

Well that sucks if true.

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3 hours ago, Penguin said:

@ProFootballDoc David Chao said on his podcast today that the vacine has only been certified for 3 months of effectiveness at this point. Will it last 6 months, possibly but as of now 3 months is all that Pfizer has certified for.

I mean they did the trials when? Three months back?

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1 hour ago, culdeus said:

I mean they did the trials when? Three months back?

I really know nothing about the claim but that's what he said.

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On 12/12/2020 at 1:14 PM, DocHolliday said:

Got a headache and sore throat on Wed.   Woke up with a slight fever on Thursday morning and was tested Thursday afternoon.  Sore throat is gone today but initial test results came back positive today.   I’m rather surprised since I have not had a fever since Thursday morning and my sore throat and headache are gone.   I didn’t lose my sense of taste or smell.   

Not sure how I ended up with this.   I work from home but did got to the hardware store and grocery store last Sunday.  My wife and daughter went to Target on Sunday to do one day of XMas shopping.   We all always wear masks but those are not providing that much protection and I always see improper wearing of masks when I have gone any where.  

In any case, we are locked down for 10 more days.   I plan on getting another test in 7 days.  I’m not the type to sit still for more than an hour so resting for a few days is going to be challenging.  

My goal is to not spread the virus.  Would be awful to get someone really sick.  2020 sucks. 

Things didn’t go well after I posted this on Saturday.   The fever, headache, and sore throat returned just a couple of hours later.    The fever ended yesterday morning.   The headache and sore throat are relentless and won’t let up.   It was a miserable weekend.   

My wife is a couple of days behind me and has the fever and headache now.   She is calling off work today even though she works from home. 

Sleep has been very difficult for the last week.   Not sure if it’s the symptoms or if not being able to sleep is another symptom.   

Hopefully, I’m really past the worst of this now.  Oh yeah, I lost my sense of taste and smell.   That is weird.  My appetite has gone from very little to less.    I have been eating toast, rice, cereals, or noodles just to take Tylenol.   

If you are mixing it up with the public unnecessarily, you are playing with fire.   We let our guard down for one weekend and are paying the price.   

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11 hours ago, Penguin said:

@ProFootballDoc David Chao said on his podcast today that the vacine has only been certified for 3 months of effectiveness at this point. Will it last 6 months, possibly but as of now 3 months is all that Pfizer has certified for.

That's probably because that is how long the study has been going.  Doctors don't like to make guesses.  They want things proven.  The 3 months number will keep growing as the trial proves longer immunity.  Back in the 1990s when I was vaccinated against hepatitis, they said it was good for 10 years.  Now they are saying 30 years or longer.

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12 hours ago, DallasDMac said:

Wish I could be more upbeat about the whole vaccine thing but, knowing I'm probably six months way from getting it, it's hard for me get excited about it personally. In fact, the thought of six more months, and now having a known timetable so far down the road, is actually somewhat depressing. I had been hoping for spring.

This is unlikely.  From talking to wife's hospital they are getting ready for a tremendous wave of opt-outs, putting class 3s in line for March.  I believe you will see a flip from having too little to having too much, very soon.  

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6 minutes ago, culdeus said:

This is unlikely.  From talking to wife's hospital they are getting ready for a tremendous wave of opt-outs, putting class 3s in line for March.  I believe you will see a flip from having too little to having too much, very soon.  

I hope you are right. I'm just gong off what the local health officials are saying are the likely timelines for us.

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7 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

I hope you are right. I'm just gong off what the local health officials are saying are the likely timelines for us.

It's going to vary a ton.  My feel is the big cities will be flooded with the stuff, and the logistical push to get it out to the rural areas will take the better part of a year.  

The facebook trolls are heating up on this stuff also.  I think now that Trump is out this might be their primary focus.  

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13 minutes ago, culdeus said:

From talking to wife's hospital they are getting ready for a tremendous wave of opt-outs, putting class 3s in line for March.

I don’t get this. My daughter works at a retirement home and they just announced that the vaccine won’t be mandatory for workers and that they will be providing guidance/counseling for those that are unsure. I get not forcing people to do something against their will, but how can you continue to let them care for others if they choose not to?

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1 minute ago, culdeus said:

It's going to vary a ton.  My feel is the big cities will be flooded with the stuff, and the logistical push to get it out to the rural areas will take the better part of a year.  

The facebook trolls are heating up on this stuff also.  I think now that Trump is out this might be their primary focus.  

San Antonio is a major medical community, along with military. Our upper tiers are going to have huge numbers. We have no choice but to be patient (admittedly not my strong suit). I was just hoping for a quicker rollout but I understand. Like I said, the whole "six months from now" thing just makes it seem so far away. But we'll just have to wait it out and hope for the best.

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2 minutes ago, E-Z Glider said:

I don’t get this. My daughter works at a retirement home and they just announced that the vaccine won’t be mandatory for workers and that they will be providing guidance/counseling for those that are unsure. I get not forcing people to do something against their will, but how can you continue to let them care for others if they choose not to?

Many businesses are struggling with this very question right now. Can Covid vaccine be a pre-requisite of employment for any job? Just certain jobs?

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21 minutes ago, culdeus said:

This is unlikely.  From talking to wife's hospital they are getting ready for a tremendous wave of opt-outs, putting class 3s in line for March.  I believe you will see a flip from having too little to having too much, very soon.  

Yes. I read last night that in our area only 55% of the frontline healthcare workers were willing to take it. That was a shocking number to me, I figured 85-90% for those being faced with it daily. If that 55% is true than the general public number is going to be substantially lower. 

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4 minutes ago, E-Z Glider said:

I don’t get this. My daughter works at a retirement home and they just announced that the vaccine won’t be mandatory for workers and that they will be providing guidance/counseling for those that are unsure. I get not forcing people to do something against their will, but how can you continue to let them care for others if they choose not to?

My friend who is a nurse said if they have enough coverage, they will just tell those who didn’t take it they can’t work. 

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1 minute ago, Ron Swanson said:

Many businesses are struggling with this very question right now. Can Covid vaccine be a pre-requisite of employment for any job? Just certain jobs?

My workplace HR when I directly asked how they will manage this, they said they are struggling with how to roll this out.  That making it seem mandatory might run sideways of labor laws.

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1 minute ago, Capella said:

Yes. I read last night that in our area only 55% of the frontline healthcare workers were willing to take it. That was a shocking number to me, I figured 85-90% for those being faced with it daily. If that 55% is true than the general public number is going to be substantially lower. 

40% is what they are projecting right now for the gen pop.  That includes 0-100 though.  Not having it available for <18 and with 40% total coverage this thing will still be present throughout 2021.

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2 minutes ago, culdeus said:

40% is what they are projecting right now for the gen pop.  That includes 0-100 though.  Not having it available for <18 and with 40% total coverage this thing will still be present throughout 2021.

40% is just not enough. JFC what is wrong with this country. Do these Facebook morons ever wonder why they don’t have polio?

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You will start hearing very quickly that the OWS ####ed up big time not pushing for 0-18 trials.  They felt confident they could at least launch 16+ and get 60%++ compliance.  Now that that looks unlikely without having the 0-18s in the mix you are staring at an endemic flu for awhile yet.  

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6 minutes ago, culdeus said:

My workplace HR when I directly asked how they will manage this, they said they are struggling with how to roll this out.  That making it seem mandatory might run sideways of labor laws.

Exactly.

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3 minutes ago, culdeus said:

You will start hearing very quickly that the OWS ####ed up big time not pushing for 0-18 trials.  They felt confident they could at least launch 16+ and get 60%++ compliance.  Now that that looks unlikely without having the 0-18s in the mix you are staring at an endemic flu for awhile yet.  

So 0-18 cannot take it all, correct?

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4 minutes ago, Capella said:

So 0-18 cannot take it all, correct?

Not in the US at least.  AFAIK nowhere is going 0-18 basically with the idea that they could speed things up if we could get enough 18+ coverage.  

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18 minutes ago, Ron Swanson said:

Many businesses are struggling with this very question right now. Can Covid vaccine be a pre-requisite of employment for any job? Just certain jobs?

If it is only certified for 3 months I don't how you can do this.

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Just now, beer 30 said:

If it is only certified for 3 months I don't how you can do this.

That’s because there is only 3 months of data right now. That will move as they receive more, but that is going to be a GD Facebook talking point as well. 

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1 minute ago, Capella said:

That’s because there is only 3 months of data right now. That will move as they receive more, but that is going to be a GD Facebook talking point as well. 

Yea I get that. Don't think you can use the vaccine as a doorstop for employment. Lawyers will have a field day with this if goes down that road.

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Just now, beer 30 said:

Yea I get that. Don't think you can use the vaccine as a doorstop for employment. Lawyers will have a field day with this if goes down that road.

This I assume is part of the reason the senate wanted protections in place for corporations 

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6 minutes ago, Capella said:

I wish we could just shoot Facebook and Twitter into the sun and send all these morons back to their local diner to spread rumors there. 

I have always employed a 'no unfollow' policy on FB. If I follow it was, at some point, for a reason. I'm precariously close to rescinding that policy these days. Snoozing for 30 days needs to have the ability to put in a custom amount of time. I snoozed a group day after the election and they are all starting to pop up again. Frankly, I think I need a break from it, get too wrapped up in the idiots comments.

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10 minutes ago, beer 30 said:

I have always employed a 'no unfollow' policy on FB. If I follow it was, at some point, for a reason. I'm precariously close to rescinding that policy these days. Snoozing for 30 days needs to have the ability to put in a custom amount of time. I snoozed a group day after the election and they are all starting to pop up again. Frankly, I think I need a break from it, get too wrapped up in the idiots comments.

I have like 85 friends on there. No groups. Just people I know. I’ve #### canned a whole lot of people on there this year. 

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16 minutes ago, beer 30 said:

Yea I get that. Don't think you can use the vaccine as a doorstop for employment. Lawyers will have a field day with this if goes down that road.

Hospitals already require employees to get the flu shot, so I don't see how this will be any different once the vaccine has become readily available.

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50 minutes ago, Capella said:

Yes. I read last night that in our area only 55% of the frontline healthcare workers were willing to take it. That was a shocking number to me, I figured 85-90% for those being faced with it daily. If that 55% is true than the general public number is going to be substantially lower. 

My mind is simply incapable of grasping this.. These are the same nurses that we see on TV crying because they are so overworked and so emotional because they are seeing people pass away before their eyes. How can they then turn around and say "Yea, I'm not going to take that vaccine?" Unfathomable.

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57 minutes ago, E-Z Glider said:

I don’t get this. My daughter works at a retirement home and they just announced that the vaccine won’t be mandatory for workers and that they will be providing guidance/counseling for those that are unsure. I get not forcing people to do something against their will, but how can you continue to let them care for others if they choose not to?

Because who else would do it?

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Just now, parasaurolophus said:

Because who else would do it?

This was what I said to the wife. They'll have to employ them while the crisis is on-going due to shortages. But once vaccines are widespread and things return to a sense of normalcy, it will make it fairly easy to know who to let go first.

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56 minutes ago, Capella said:

Yes. I read last night that in our area only 55% of the frontline healthcare workers were willing to take it. That was a shocking number to me, I figured 85-90% for those being faced with it daily. If that 55% is true than the general public number is going to be substantially lower. 

it's due to their age.  Many healthcare workers are younger women in their child bearing years who are concerned about how a fast tracked vaccine could impact that.  For them the side effects of the vaccine could be worse than Rona itself. I know a couple of nurses and this scares them.

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4 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

My mind is simply incapable of grasping this.. These are the same nurses that we see on TV crying because they are so overworked and so emotional because they are seeing people pass away before their eyes. How can they then turn around and say "Yea, I'm not going to take that vaccine?" Unfathomable.

I honestly dont understand how people can be surprised by this. It is an industry that is used to seeing things move at the speed of molasses. 

They are used to every dumb question or variable possible being studied in these trials. 

That didnt happen here. 

I have already said I would take it in a heartbeat, but I would be lying if I didnt at least think there was a possibility of some long term immune system side effects. I am of the opinion that I still want the damn shot, the risk is low, and the only way to learn about any side effects is to have more people injected, so let me at it!

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19 minutes ago, bcat01 said:

Hospitals already require employees to get the flu shot, so I don't see how this will be any different once the vaccine has become readily available.

My wife works at a university office building adjacent to a large hospital.  She has to get a flu shot each year, otherwise she cannot enter her building (offices + classrooms, no medical facilities).  I am certain that she will be obligated to get a COVID vax.

I don't see why other employers cannot handle this the same way.  "You want to come on campus and work in the office?  Get a vax.  If you don't want to get a vax, work from home." (and get crappy assignments and no career advancement, but that part won't be said)

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1 hour ago, culdeus said:

My workplace HR when I directly asked how they will manage this, they said they are struggling with how to roll this out.  That making it seem mandatory might run sideways of labor laws.

I’ve read a few stories stating that employers are within their rights to require vaccination. I don’t think most will. Places like hospitals where it really should be mandatory need all the bodies they can find right now, so sending someone home for refusing the get the vaccine isn’t a great option now. Once it gets to the general public, I could see retailers like Costco and Target doing it, but right now I think we will see a lot of places strongly suggesting all employees get it.

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28 minutes ago, bcat01 said:

Hospitals already require employees to get the flu shot, so I don't see how this will be any different once the vaccine has become readily available.

Ah, didn't know that. Rock on then, take the shot.

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16 minutes ago, Pipes said:

it's due to their age.  Many healthcare workers are younger women in their child bearing years who are concerned about how a fast tracked vaccine could impact that.  For them the side effects of the vaccine could be worse than Rona itself. I know a couple of nurses and this scares them.

Interesting, hadn't heard that. Thanks. 

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1 hour ago, Capella said:

Yes. I read last night that in our area only 55% of the frontline healthcare workers were willing to take it. That was a shocking number to me, I figured 85-90% for those being faced with it daily. If that 55% is true than the general public number is going to be substantially lower. 

Have run into this many, many times in real life. People in the medical fields and especially medical employees removed from direct patient care (e.g. front-desk staff, but also way too many RNs) tend to think COVID-19 is overblown. New Orleans is a blue city, but most of the immediate suburbs are blood-red ... so maybe the overlaying political climate leads to this.

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15 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I honestly dont understand how people can be surprised by this. It is an industry that is used to seeing things move at the speed of molasses. 

They are used to every dumb question or variable possible being studied in these trials. 

That didnt happen here. 

I have already said I would take it in a heartbeat, but I would be lying if I didnt at least think there was a possibility of some long term immune system side effects. I am of the opinion that I still want the damn shot, the risk is low, and the only way to learn about any side effects is to have more people injected, so let me at it!

But they've seen the devastation of the virus first hand. That is definitely a known factor. I can see SOME not wanting it. But at the numbers being quoted above? It is definitely surprising to many of us, I guarantee.

Edit: After reading Doug's post above, if the numbers INCLUDE folks like back-office workers, etc., then that makes much more sense. 

Edited by DallasDMac
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