*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread

[Biff84 2,920]

1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

Thats crazy. Did he just grab the same syringe he stuck the previous person with?

Tough to tell. They come in multi dose vials, 5 shots in each. My guess is that they had someone drawing up all the shots from the vial to be ready for the photo op and they either put an empty syringe with the filled ones or when they drew it up and were attempting to get air bubbles out and accidentally removed all the vaccine. Either way that person likely messed up.

Pickup the previous syringe is unlikely. Safety mechanism are universally used that either retract the needle or lock it from using it again. It’s possible they weren’t doing that but unlikely.

Another consideration is the 3ml syringes are often used and this vaccine is only 0.3ml, so the liquid may not look like much nor take much of a push to do the injection. In this case they seem to have screwed up.

[parasaurolophus 7,533]

3 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

Tough to tell. They come in multi dose vials, 5 shots in each. My guess is that they had someone drawing up all the shots from the vial to be ready for the photo op and they either put an empty syringe with the filled ones or when they drew it up and were attempting to get air bubbles out and accidentally removed all the vaccine. Either way that person likely messed up. -this one is possible.

Pickup the previous syringe is unlikely. Safety mechanism are universally used that either retract the needle or lock it from using it again. It’s possible they weren’t doing that but unlikely. - no retraction on these needles. And it doesnt matter if it is locked if you arent reloading. He had all 5 preloaded in a bag. You cant really see a couple of the syringes very well in the el paso times photo where eric johansen is holding up the bag with all of them in it. So he either rejabbed or somebody forgot to load one of those two. 

Another consideration is the 3ml syringes are often used and this vaccine is only 0.3ml, so the liquid may not look like much nor take much of a push to do the injection. In this case they seem to have screwed up. -this doesnt fit since the other ones werent like that

My responses in italics. 

[Rhythmdoctor 1,463]

3 hours ago, DallasDMac said:

Due to the the pure numbers of people that think like you, you are probably right. 

I enjoy my privacy and freedom and I have the absolute right to say what goes into my body.  There is a large population of doctors, nurses, scientists and microbiologists who do not think this vaccine is safe.  It is never ok to force people to inject themselves with anything.  This situation has got way out of control and it's downright scary.

[gruecd 7,433]

7 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I enjoy my privacy and freedom and I have the absolute right to say what goes into my body.  There is a large population of doctors, nurses, scientists and microbiologists who do not think this vaccine is safe.  It is never ok to force people to inject themselves with anything.  This situation has got way out of control and it's downright scary.

Who’s forcing anybody? Anyone is free to not get vaccinated...and free to deal with the consequences of that choice.

[The Z Machine 5,307]

6 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I enjoy my privacy and freedom and I have the absolute right to say what goes into my body.  There is a large population of doctors, nurses, scientists and microbiologists who do not think this vaccine is safe.  It is never ok to force people to inject themselves with anything.  This situation has got way out of control and it's downright scary.

The government isn't going to forcibly enter your house, hold you down, and stick you.  If/when you get the vaccine it will be by your choice. 

Now, it's also the choice of your employer to mandate you get vaccinated before interacting with your coworkers.  They may also terminate your employment if you are unable to perform your duties without being vaccinated and you refuse. 

Many choices.  No force. 

[Navin Johnson 519]

On 12/18/2020 at 5:50 PM, Doug B said:

Good thing Brent Musberger never called any Chelsea games.

Second down and nine!!!

[Witz 401]

Thoughts on the mutated strain running through the UK right now?

[parasaurolophus 7,533]

Pretty good Thread for anybody looking to read about variants. 

Another one. 

[belljr 11,254]

How are my choice people against abortion?

[parasaurolophus 7,533]

Just now, Witz said:

Thoughts on the mutated strain running through the UK right now?

I was in your head. 

[Witz 401]

34 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I was in your head. 

:mindblown:

[Nathan R. Jessep 5,809]

1 hour ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I enjoy my privacy and freedom and I have the absolute right to say what goes into my body.  There is a large population of doctors, nurses, scientists and microbiologists who do not think this vaccine is safe.  It is never ok to force people to inject themselves with anything.  This situation has got way out of control and it's downright scary.

I've not seen ONE reputable source claiming this. Do you have links supporting that? If so, I'd like to read them. (not chastising you, I legit want to see)

[EZD222 121]

1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

The government isn't going to forcibly enter your house, hold you down, and stick you.  If/when you get the vaccine it will be by your choice. 

Now, it's also the choice of your employer to mandate you get vaccinated before interacting with your coworkers.  They may also terminate your employment if you are unable to perform your duties without being vaccinated and you refuse. 

Many choices.  No force. 

Same conversation I had my mother today. She's free to take or not take the vaccine. It's a choice and she's free to do what's in her best interest. Just like I'm free not to let her interact with her 7 month grandchild who physically can't get the vaccine. She quoted social media (ie FB). I quoted scientific articles, our primary care physicians, and the 10+ friends/acquaintances on the front lines who have already gotten the shot this week.

Everyone has a choice. There are just consequences to those choices.

[jobarules 750]

Now up to 5 people in the US with allergic reactions. Enough that the FDA is recommending having Epipen readily available when administrating the vaccine to prevent anaphylaxis. Did any trial participants have an allergic reaction? 

Edited December 20, 2020 by jobarules

[Dezbelief 804]

1 minute ago, jobarules said:

Now up to 5 people in the US with allergic reactions. Enough that the FDA is recommending having Epipen readily available when administrating the vaccine to prevent anaphylaxis. Did any trial participants have an allergic reaction? 

I wouldn't think people with severe allergies would be predisposed to volunteering.

[jobarules 750]

2 minutes ago, Dezbelief said:

I wouldn't think people with severe allergies would be predisposed to volunteering.

Good point. Also 272k have been vaccinated already. I didnt realize it was that many already.

[brun 981]

On 12/10/2020 at 11:09 AM, brun said:

...
I've been working from home and my company requires that I be symptom free and test negative before returning to the office. I mentioned that the CDC and local health authorities seem to agree that additional tests are not recommended and a positive test result can be had as much as 3 months after initial symptoms. Unfortunately the policy is flowed down from corporate and the local facility appears to have no leeway. It's possible it will be another week+ before being allowed back into the office...
 
From 1st symptom to test = about 48 hours (Convenient MD)
From test to results = about 72 hours
Days out of the office = probably going to be around 15 assuming I test negative.

My test this week was positive,  meaning am required to continue working from home despite what the CDC and other health authorities say. 🥺

[DallasDMac 2,925]

3 hours ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I enjoy my privacy and freedom and I have the absolute right to say what goes into my body.  -  Absolutely. And your employer has the right to determine your employment status with the company based on that choice. Freedom is a two way street.

There is a large population of doctors, nurses, scientists and microbiologists who do not think this vaccine is safe. - Links?

It is never ok to force people to inject themselves with anything. - Good thing no one is doing that then. 

This situation has got way out of control and it's downright scary. - Only in the imaginary, non-existent scenario you created in your mind.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by DallasDMac

[Doug B 7,096]

44 minutes ago, Dezbelief said:

I wouldn't think people with severe allergies would be predisposed to volunteering.

I also wonder if the flip side was true: That researchers screened out trial applicants with a history of anaphylaxis.

So far as I can find: it looks like none of the Pfizer or Moderna Phase 3 trial participants reported anaphylactic reactions.

[parasaurolophus 7,533]

39 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I also wonder if the flip side was true: That researchers screened out trial applicants with a history of anaphylaxis.

So far as I can find: it looks like none of the Pfizer or Moderna Phase 3 trial participants reported anaphylactic reactions.

History of anaphylaxis was an exclusion.

[Biff84 2,920]

2 hours ago, Nathan R. Jessep said:

I've not seen ONE reputable source claiming this. Do you have links supporting that? If so, I'd like to read them. (not chastising you, I legit want to see)

Even in health care you will get people who fall into the subsets who don’t want the vaccine. I have not seen much beyond that. There WAS significant resistance to a rushed vaccine before it was properly studied including myself. I’m not seeing that anymore. The combination of amazing study results, trials being completed and the absolute failure of following mitigation strategies removed the skepticism for me and many health care providers.

[Nathan R. Jessep 5,809]

7 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

Even in health care you will get people who fall into the subsets who don’t want the vaccine. I have not seen much beyond that. There WAS significant resistance to a rushed vaccine before it was properly studied including myself. I’m not seeing that anymore. The combination of amazing study results, trials being completed and the absolute failure of following mitigation strategies removed the skepticism for me and many health care providers.

Yep, same here. I've read everything I could find (which is why I asked for what he was basing his claims on), plus personally knowing several doctors, nurses and pharmacists who have either already gotten vaccinated or are waiting to, so all of that has put my skepticism essentially to rest. 

[gruecd 7,433]

42 minutes ago, Nathan R. Jessep said:

Yep, same here. I've read everything I could find (which is why I asked for what he was basing his claims on), plus personally knowing several doctors, nurses and pharmacists who have either already gotten vaccinated or are waiting to, so all of that has put my skepticism essentially to rest. 

Same 

[gianmarco 28,968]

42 minutes ago, Nathan R. Jessep said:

Yep, same here. I've read everything I could find (which is why I asked for what he was basing his claims on), plus personally knowing several doctors, nurses and pharmacists who have either already gotten vaccinated or are waiting to, so all of that has put my skepticism essentially to rest. 

My FB feed is littered with photos of physicians getting their vaccine the moment it was available. It's a great thing to see. 

[CGRdrJoe 4,104]

13 hours ago, Nathan R. Jessep said:

Hope you get to feeling better GB, but do keep in mind that this is the body putting up an immune response, which is GOOD. 

I've always been curious why some get effects like this and some don't. Maybe the ones that don't didn't need the vaccine? Something I've always pondered. 

Felt great all morning, about 4pm started to feel like crap again. 

[The Z Machine 5,307]

21 minutes ago, CGRdrJoe said:

Felt great all morning, about 4pm started to feel like crap again. 

Is it the booze?

[JaxBill 6,954]

so any concern with CDC reporting 3150  of 127,000 recipients suffered health care events defined as  "unable to perform normal daily activities, unable to work, [or] required care from doctor or health care professional"

 

pdf

[CGRdrJoe 4,104]

19 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Is it the booze?

I wish, in so cal where some things are open and my head feels like it’s going to explode 

[Doug B 7,096]

5 minutes ago, JaxBill said:

so any concern with CDC reporting 3150  of 127,000 recipients suffered health care events defined as  "unable to perform normal daily activities, unable to work, [or] required care from doctor or health care professional"

pdf

The percentages of "health impact events" is rising each day, too. As of Friday the 18th, it was one in 36 people getting vaccinated.

Maybe the "... [or] required care from ... health care professional" is kind of a widely-used catchall. Oh, you asked for a little hydrocortisone cream at the doctor's office to put on that sore injection site? Maybe you're one of the "health impact events"  Otherwise ... we've got to get a lot better information about what's happening.

[jobarules 750]

A Chicago hospital stopped administering vaccines as 4 people suffered allergic reactions. This is not good.

[Doug B 7,096]

2 minutes ago, jobarules said:

A Chicago hospital stopped administering vaccines as 4 people suffered allergic reactions. This is not good.

That same hospital is starting back up with the vaccines tomorrow. Also:

Quote

 

Three of the people had mild reactions, and were treated and sent home in good condition, Citronberg said. One person had a “more severe” anaphylaxis reaction, he said.

That person was monitored overnight, but was discharged on Saturday and is doing well, officials said.

 

I guess those three people with mild reactions would still fall under "health impact events" [pg 6] (also see upthread)?

It seems apparent that the Pfizer vaccine causes anaphylaxis much more often than other familiar vaccines. Maybe Moderna's and the other ones will do better. Meanwhile, it's too late for the batches already manufactured ... but I wonder if there's something Pfizer can tweak without starting trials all over again?

[Doug B 7,096]

I also wonder if there's any possibility whatsoever that some of the reactions (not the analphylaxis cases) are psychosomatic? It would be a wholly unethical study and would never be done ... but I bet it would be possible to give out placebo vaccines and still get people having reactions to the placebo.

Sounds weird, but if you dig deep into placebo studies ... there's a lot of "how the eff?" stuff out there. The mind is a powerful thing.

EDIT: Good non-scholarly link to an overview of contemporary placebo studies. Also lots of links to scholarly work for those wanting to climb down the rabbit holes.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Doug B

[parasaurolophus 7,533]

22 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I also wonder if there's any possibility whatsoever that some of the reactions (not the analphylaxis cases) are psychosomatic? It would be a wholly unethical study and would never be done ... but I bet it would be possible to give out placebo vaccines and still get people having reactions to the placebo.

Sounds weird, but if you dig deep into placebo studies ... there's a lot of "how the eff?" stuff out there. The mind is a powerful thing.

EDIT: Good non-scholarly link to an overview of contemporary placebo studies. Also lots of links to scholarly work for those wanting to climb down the rabbit holes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. 

 

[Pip's Invitation 7,560]

8 hours ago, Doug B said:

I also wonder if there's any possibility whatsoever that some of the reactions (not the analphylaxis cases) are psychosomatic? It would be a wholly unethical study and would never be done ... but I bet it would be possible to give out placebo vaccines and still get people having reactions to the placebo.

Last month a study found something similar going on with statin therapy. Reports of statin intolerance are common - mostly due to muscle pain. But in this study, the same side effects occurred in many of the people who thought they were getting a statin but actually got a placebo.

https://www.healio.com/news/cardiology/20201115/nocebo-effect-may-explain-many-cases-of-statin-intolerance-samson

[parasaurolophus 7,533]

This 72 year old is 2020 in a nutshell. 

 

As of December 6, 2020, there were 3 SAEs reported in the vaccine group: a 65-year-old
participant with community acquired pneumonia 25 days after vaccination, a 72-year-old
participant with arrhythmia after being struck by lightning 28 days after vaccination, and an 87-
year-old participant with worsening of chronic bradycardia 45 days after vaccination. On FDA 
review of the narratives, none of these SAEs are assessed as related. There were no cases of 
severe COVID-19 reported in the study.

[Doug B 7,096]

8 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

As of December 6, 2020, there were 3 SAEs reported in the vaccine group ...

For the house: “SAE” = Serious Adverse Effect.

Para, what trial was this from?

[parasaurolophus 7,533]

Just now, Doug B said:

For the house: “SAE” = Serious Adverse Effect.

Para, what trial was this from?

Moderna.

[The Z Machine 5,307]

27 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

28 minutes ago, Doug B said:

For the house: “SAE” = Serious Adverse Effect.

Para, what trial was this from?

Moderna

Ship it

[Sammy3469 10,319]

How concerned should we be with the UK mutation?  

[Nathan R. Jessep 5,809]

51 minutes ago, Sammy3469 said:

How concerned should we be with the UK mutation?  

If you are on Facebook, check out Dear Pandemic. They had a good analysis. Basically the tl;dr is that vaccinations are designed with mutations in mind and a change in one location of the virus, even on the spike protein, is unlikely to alter the success of the vaccine.  It would take a collective set of mutations over time to render the vaccine less effective. 

[Doug B 7,096]

57 minutes ago, Sammy3469 said:

How concerned should we be with the UK mutation?  

The Philadelphia Inquirer ran a good laymen’s overview yesterday. Upshot is that the UK mutation is not all that much of a concern over other strains.

https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/london-britain-coronavirus-covid-19-lockdown-mutation--20201219.html

One thing I do wonder about is what, exactly, makes a virus “more transmissible” or “transmit faster”? The first thing that comes to mind is a hardier viral capsule that resists UV and temperature better than other strains. Is that typically what it is with “more transmission” mutations?

[jamny 6,592]

43 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

_____
Edit: I don’t really care if the risks of transmission are low walking by someone outdoors at six feet. We are stricter than most, and we plan on integrating with two families for the holidays, but only under the directive that all of us strictly quarantine for two weeks with zero breeches, even minor, or it’s off. Community spread here is uncontrolled. Our strict protocols include 17 feet distance even outdoors. Incidentally, there is a new strain that we know is circulating widely in Europe that is 70% more transmissible. So our choice is to assume it’s in the air around people. I think this is a good best practice for all. If I can smell your perfume, I can smell your COVID.

If you are being that cautious, why would you get together with 2 other families? I'm not as strict walking around in public and there's no way I would do that under any pre planned precautions.

[Doug B 7,096]

48 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

Edit: I don’t really care if the risks of transmission are low walking by someone outdoors at six feet. 

Just one data point -- myself.

I consider the risk of transmission in the bolded scenario to be essentially nil. I don't share that to start a debate because my take is based as much or more on a hunch than it is on hard science. I can fully understand that others' hunches can lead them to different conclusions.

I shared the data point to point that there's like far more people whose hunches shade to my perspective than to yours. Not a questions of "who's right?" or "who's wrong?" Just that you may find yourselves often having to bend against the wider world -- you'll have to take the greater care as others will not. And that's pretty much what you're describing in your post, so I recognize that what I'm posting here are things you already know and account for.

 

[Doug B 7,096]

23 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

Also, from time news broke there was speculation that vaccine may not be effective. Isn’t this pretty easy to deduce? mRNA uses a precise sequence that’s like a key to a lock. Either the sequence they target is there or it isn’t. There is no partially correct key, from what I understand.

Much research still be done -- but preliminarily it does, in fact, look like partially correct keys (e.g. antibodies to older coronaviruses) do exist. One theory is that these close-enough antibodies are part of the puzzle that explains why some people don't contract COVID-19 when exposed or else end up asymptomatic if infected.

[RUSF18 3,899]

1 hour ago, Mr. Ham said:

Edit: I don’t really care if the risks of transmission are low walking by someone outdoors at six feet. We are stricter than most, and we plan on integrating with two families for the holidays, but only under the directive that all of us strictly quarantine for two weeks with zero breeches, even minor, or it’s off.

I'm confused. You breeched your own "strict quarantine" by taking the family for a walk even being 17 ft or whatever from other people.  

[Doug B 7,096]

35 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

1 hour ago, Doug B said:

The Philadelphia Inquirer ran a good laymen’s overview yesterday. Upshot is that the UK mutation is not all that much of a concern over other strains.

https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/london-britain-coronavirus-covid-19-lockdown-mutation--20201219.html

One thing I do wonder about is what, exactly, makes a virus “more transmissible” or “transmit faster”? The first thing that comes to mind is a hardier viral capsule that resists UV and temperature better than other strains. Is that typically what it is with “more transmission” mutations?

Not a fan of labeling something more transmissible without a legend for what that means, and how it should impact protocols.

Agree 100%. "More transmissible" will be translated as "worse" and "more serious" even if it really isn't. More specificity is needed and yes, information on how protocols should be adjusted.

[RUSF18 3,899]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

We’re all allowed to go for outdoor walks while maintaining maximum distance. There’s no “if 17 foot bubble is popped, it’s off” provision. Other than that, none of us are out in public and nothing indoors with anyone beyond our families. 

Just pointing out that isn't a quarantine. 

[shader 7,905]

3 hours ago, Sammy3469 said:

How concerned should we be with the UK mutation?  

France, Netherlands, Ireland, Belgium, Italy and Kuwait have all banned flights from UK while they get more info.

UK officials say it’s 70% more transmissible.

This sub has some excellent new info:

https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/kgvng7/nervtag_meeting_on_sarscov2_variant_under/

 

Like anything else with this virus, the real answer is that it’s too early and no one has a freaking clue. Will take some time to figure it out.

Edited December 20, 2020 by shader

[Doug B 7,096]

8 minutes ago, shader said:

UK officials say it’s 70% more transmissible.

Do we know what this precisely means? A measurable and verifiable raw increase in R₀? Something else?

[EZD222 121]

Good NY Times article on the Wuhan and Europe strain (ie mutation) specific to the contagious factor.

Evidence Builds That an Early Mutation Made the Pandemic Harder to Stop