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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread


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On 12/18/2020 at 12:42 PM, D_House said:

Same. Less painful than the flu. But I’m <15 mins post (they ask us to wait 15 mins after before letting us go - nobody seems to be suffering ill effects in the post vaccine waiting room)

>48 hours post and zero ill effects. I typically get 24-48 hours of a sore deltoid with the flu vaccine. Nothing so far with the Pfizer vaccine.

Obviously sample size of 1 so take it for what it’s worth.

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My dad has been sick for a few weeks.  My mom called me today to say he was about to die.  I said some final words to him and he could hear me but was unable to respond.  He passed a short time later.

Not to derail anything, but we had our baby last night! She's doing amazingly well. Due to the hospital's pandemic policies, I had to leave her right after my wife was released from recovery. I can't

On a positive note, my wife gave birth to our first child this morning!! We were expecting our daughter to be born in the first week of April, which does not align very well if this hospital sees a ma

17 minutes ago, EZD222 said:

Good NY Times article on the Wuhan and Europe strain (ie mutation) specific to the contagious factor.

Evidence Builds That an Early Mutation Made the Pandemic Harder to Stop

That's a good article. I would love to see something that digs a bit deeper and offers at least some hypothesized reasons that one strain of a virus transmits more easily than another. Maybe it's not yet known for sure, but I'd be interested even in educated speculation.

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On 12/19/2020 at 3:56 PM, gruecd said:

Who’s forcing anybody? Anyone is free to not get vaccinated...and free to deal with the consequences of that choice.

Nah, that's b.s.  I shouldn't be outcast from normal societal functions for choosing not to poison my body.  The body heals itself, it's my choice how to treat my body and I shouldn't be fired from my job for that choice.  This is complete absurdity.

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25 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

Nope.  I shouldn't have to disclose my medical privacy to anyone, including my employer.

 

26 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

Nah, that's b.s.  I shouldn't be outcast from normal societal functions for choosing not to poison my body.  The body heals itself, it's my choice how to treat my body and I shouldn't be fired from my job for that choice.  This is complete absurdity.

If you think you have the "right" to infect everyone around you, especially in a workplace, then we have zero grounds for discussion. And I feel fairly confident you have no grasp of the concept of rights. 

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4 hours ago, Doug B said:

That's a good article. I would love to see something that digs a bit deeper and offers at least some hypothesized reasons that one strain of a virus transmits more easily than another. Maybe it's not yet known for sure, but I'd be interested even in educated speculation.

The Great Influenza gets into some of this stuff.  I understand the concepts, but not the micro science on receptors, etc.  Both the UK and South African strain seem less than in good to this layman (both seem to spread more easily and have worse symptoms).  I’ve also read that the hypothesis is that these mutate in people who have symptoms for awhile with the plasma transfusions potentially creating better conditions in the body for mutating. It all seems plausible, but I also don’t want to freak out just yet either.  

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4 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

 

If you think you have the "right" to infect everyone around you, especially in a workplace, then we have zero grounds for discussion. And I feel fairly confident you have no grasp of the concept of rights. 

I am a healthy individual and Covid is a curable flu.  Why is it assumed I'm infecting everyone?  The absurdity and mind-numbing obedience resulting from this virus is alarming.  I wonder how many military vets are gung-ho about getting this vaccine?  I know this will not get the vaccine and I didn't volunteer my life for this country to see every ounce of freedom taken in a matter of months.  There are tons of doctors and scientists saying things that conflict the mainstream narrative.  That should concern folks. That should get people wanting to know the truth.  Yet here we are.  Anyone offering anything other than the official narrative is ostracized and ridiculed.  It's OK to ask questions, especially when there are a large number of professionals saying something different than what our government and media are telling us.  When that happens, it's even more important to listen.

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4 hours ago, shader said:

France, Netherlands, Ireland, Belgium, Italy and Kuwait have all banned flights from UK while they get more info.

UK officials say it’s 70% more transmissible.

This sub has some excellent new info:

https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/kgvng7/nervtag_meeting_on_sarscov2_variant_under/

 

Like anything else with this virus, the real answer is that it’s too early and no one has a freaking clue. Will take some time to figure it out.

Including us as we let flight after flight in from the UK. We did this in Jan-Feb shutting down China but leaving the door to Europe wide open and NYC got crushed. Think it happens again?

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On 12/20/2020 at 9:12 AM, Doug B said:

That's a good article. I would love to see something that digs a bit deeper and offers at least some hypothesized reasons that one strain of a virus transmits more easily than another. Maybe it's not yet known for sure, but I'd be interested even in educated speculation.

This article clarifies some of your questions. The mutation occurs in the spike protein and is associated with slightly delayed, but larger outbreaks in younger (median 4-5 year difference) populations. The exact mechanism is unclear, but it is associated with higher viral burden in the nasopharynx of infected individuals. And they estimated R0:

Quote

The spike protein 614 polymorphism on its own explains very little variance in growth rates among clusters (weighted least-squares R2 = 1%), and there was no significant difference in initial growth rates (median initial growth rate for 614D clusters = 117 year−1 versus 169 year−1 for 614G clusters; Kruskal Wallis p = 0.13).  This corresponds to an R0 of 3.1 (interquartile range, IQR: 2.7–3.5) for 614D clusters and 4.0 (IQR: 3.1–4.8) for 614G clusters, assuming a 6.5 day serial interval (Flaxman et al., 2020).

Fortunately, it doesn’t cause more severe infection.

ETA This isn’t talking about the new UK strain, rather the Italy strain that branched from the original virus. The UK strain is even more contagious, ~20-70% or so from other articles. :kicksrock:

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30 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

 

If you think you have the "right" to infect everyone around you, especially in a workplace, then we have zero grounds for discussion. And I feel fairly confident you have no grasp of the concept of rights. 

His rights > other people's rights. 

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57 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I am a healthy individual and Covid is a curable flu.  Why is it assumed I'm infecting everyone?  The absurdity and mind-numbing obedience resulting from this virus is alarming.  I wonder how many military vets are gung-ho about getting this vaccine?  I know this will not get the vaccine and I didn't volunteer my life for this country to see every ounce of freedom taken in a matter of months.  There are tons of doctors and scientists saying things that conflict the mainstream narrative.  That should concern folks. That should get people wanting to know the truth.  Yet here we are.  Anyone offering anything other than the official narrative is ostracized and ridiculed.  It's OK to ask questions, especially when there are a large number of professionals saying something different than what our government and media are telling us.  When that happens, it's even more important to listen.

You have link to the tons of doctors and scientists saying that this is just a flu? I am interested as all of the doctors that I work with seem to agree that this is pretty bad.

Also, I would like to hear these many doctors and scientists opinions on why the ICUs are full and many hospitals in hard hit areas are over capacity. I am interested because the doctors I work with seem to agree that this is pretty bad. 

Also, I was wondering if the tons of doctors and scientists can explain why Covid deaths are the leading cause of death in the US for 2019, while the usual top causes have seen a very small percentage drop. The doctors I work with seem to think it is because this is pretty bad. But your sources seem to indicate otherwise. 

I have a long work day tomorrow but I can take the time to read all of the thoughtful, reasoned, peer reviewed reports to which you must be referencing. Thank you in advance.

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51 minutes ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I am a healthy individual and Covid is a curable flu.  Why is it assumed I'm infecting everyone?  The absurdity and mind-numbing obedience resulting from this virus is alarming.  I wonder how many military vets are gung-ho about getting this vaccine?  I know this will not get the vaccine and I didn't volunteer my life for this country to see every ounce of freedom taken in a matter of months.  There are tons of doctors and scientists saying things that conflict the mainstream narrative.  That should concern folks. That should get people wanting to know the truth.  Yet here we are.  Anyone offering anything other than the official narrative is ostracized and ridiculed.  It's OK to ask questions, especially when there are a large number of professionals saying something different than what our government and media are telling us.  When that happens, it's even more important to listen.

Your chances of developing complications from the vaccine are significantly less than the chance that you get infected and it turns out to be way more than "a curable flu".

It is not "a curable flu" for many, many people. I have seen, firsthand, a lot of deaths from this disease. I have seen people that have had their lives turned completely upside down and will have lifelong complications from this disease, including needing to do dialysis (trust me, it's way worse than it sounds) and see lung doctors for the rest of their shortened lives.

You're gambling that you won't be one of the people that develops a severe case. Honestly, your odds are probably pretty good. I don't know anything about you, or your general health, or the specifics of your immune system. And there isn't any really firm data to predict that, anyway. Whether you've done it consciously, or not, you've already make a risk/benefit analysis about your chances and I can't disagree with your odds.

Society as an aggregate, though, views the risk/benefit through a different lens, though. They see you unvaccinated as a potential vector for the disease. It's not just about YOU and YOUR chances of getting "just a flu, bro". You not getting the vaccine makes you a significant risk to infect others and allow the virus to continue to propagate. Society has a risk/benefit analysis to make, as well. To the rest of us, you're way more of a risk not getting the vaccine.

The pinch point seems to be that you want people to honor and respect your risk/benefit analysis, but you're not willing to concede that others have a different risk/benefit threshold. Or, you concede it but don't care. Employers have the right to refuse employment to people they consider a risk. Businesses have the right to refuse service to people they view as a risk. Governments have the responsibility to ensure that public health guidelines are followed- you can't ignore vaccinations for a kid and still send them to school.

Americans need to examine their identity as rugged individualists and reassess their fundamental beliefs in "freedom". We all exist in the context of a Society. There is an implicit social contract involved, with rights and responsibilities on both sides. Your stance is essentially asking Society at large to selflessly ignore its own interests to honor your choice, which isn't justified by science or data, but a hunch (and, imho, a bunch of really bad, bunk pseudoscience propagated by a bunch of "really fake news" healthcare and science "experts") Your choice has consequences- either live with them, or choose differently.

tl;dr it's not "just a flu, bro". You not getting the vaccine is fine- it even makes sense from an individual risk/benefit analysis. The rest of Society, in aggregate, has a significantly different risk/benefit analysis. There's no Macchiavellian overlord making these decisions to erode your freedoms; there are only businesses and other individuals and the elected officials responsible for public health making decisions based on their risk/benefit. Your choice is fine, but live with the consequences.

if you want true freedom, go do a Thoreau or Unabomber and live off grid, completely self-sufficiently. That's honestly the only way you can unilaterally make those kind of decisions and make sure your freedom is inviolate. But, if you rely on other people to feed, shelter and provide for you and yours, be prepared to have to make concessions for 'the greater good'.

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2 hours ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I wonder how many military vets are gung-ho about getting this vaccine?  I know this will not get the vaccine and I didn't volunteer my life for this country to see every ounce of freedom taken in a matter of months. 

I'm a 21+ year retired vet. I'll be first in line the second I'm given the opportunity.

There are tons of doctors and scientists saying things that conflict the mainstream narrative.  That should concern folks. 

Post links or stop posting this tripe. Of course you won't because you can't. Because everyone here knows no such link exists.

 

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4 hours ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

This is amazingly awful. Most of those "doctors" have virtually no credentials or aren't even physicians. They are all fringe practitioners that deny the pandemic even exists.

Here is the group they belong to

They are an EXTREME minority and, while I'm sure you will dismiss anything stated to you here, that entire video is a joke and not at all representative of the vast majority of the medical field.

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3 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

This is amazingly awful. Most of those "doctors" have virtually no credentials or aren't even physicians. They are all fringe practitioners that deny the pandemic even exists.

Here is the group they belong to

They are an EXTREME minority and, while I'm sure you will dismiss anything stated to you here, that entire video is a joke and not at all representative of the vast majority of the medical field.

You couldn't pay me enough to get medically treated by anyone in that group. 

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4 hours ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

.  I wonder how many military vets are gung-ho about getting this vaccine?  I know this will not get the vaccine

 

4 hours ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I shouldn't be fired from my job for that choice

4 hours ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

Nope.  I shouldn't have to disclose my medical privacy to anyone, including my employer.

You realize when your employer was Uncle Sam you received several vaccines required by your employer who has your complete medical records. 

 

Happy Holidays Rhythmdoctor! Thank you for your service. 

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6 hours ago, jobarules said:

How does a 30 something year old politician get the vaccine already? I thought Healthcare and long term care facilities were priority voted on?

Some of the politicians should be getting it but definitely not the healthy 30 year olds. Healthy 50 year olds are even highly questionable.

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The last couple of pages have drifted into both extremes and that’s what drives everyone crazy. Balance is the key. @Mr Ham I appreciate that you are being especially cautious for the safety of yourself and your family. I could come up with an example of some extreme behavior that could result from going overboard with the precautions but you just told a story about yelling at someone you believe to be in their 70s for walking int the middle of the street and not giving your family enough space. You’re there already.

Let me tell you how this will play out - COVID will find its way into your circle. All the stress and anxiety will push you or your family to make mistakes. I’ve heard many stories of people who were being so careful but then decided to do something stupid. You’re already in the path with getting together with the other two families. That’s how lot of the transmission is happening. Not from random people outside coming within 17 feet of you. It’s someone who maybe didn’t take the agreed quarantine as seriously as you. Or maybe someone who was having a slight symptom but didn’t want to say anything because they know how important the trip is to your kids.

Balance is the key. I’ve been the one taking on all the risk in my family and it’s been stressful. I eventually learned that I had to balance my venting (which is needed) about bad behavior and close calls for the well-being of my family. Cabin fever and stress led to calls to just ‘stop caring’ and eventually a compromise of a weekend at an indoor water park. It didn’t end up being a mistake but it sure could have. Since then I’ve toned down my venting and encouraged the rest of the family to take on slight risks to help keep them sane while also managing the risk. My 5 year old is better with wearing her mask appropriately than most adults.

Protect yourself and your family but try to find a balance that doesn’t end with yelling at an elderly man in the street.

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12 hours ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

I am a healthy individual and Covid is a curable flu.  
 

1) Influenza =\= Coronavirus 

2) There are families of 325,000 Americans who might take issue with your claim COVID is curable.

And that's just the issues in your first sentence...  we can START there :lol: 

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5 minutes ago, The Commish said:

How is this stuff allowed in this thread?  It wouldn't even be allowed in the PSF thread :lol: 

On the bright side, the divide in this county should be mended soon.  Either the vaccine is going to poison all the team xxxxx voters or covid will take out most of the team xxxxx voters.

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13 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Does anybody know the process for warming the pfizer vaccine up? Just let it sit for a while? 

Moving from a minus 80 freezer to a standard cold freezer would do it.  I do think the dilutions required (effectively setting the timer on the 5-6 hours...I think that's what I read) warmer than the low to mid 30s in temp though.  I suspect there's going to be a lot of waste with this particular one.  The Moderna one seems much more manageable.  

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7 minutes ago, bcat01 said:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/12/21/nation/coronavirus-mutation-has-been-identified-uk-heres-what-know/

If this new mutation in England would take hold in the U.S. it would overrun the healthcare system.  I would think that it is already here in a few people and with Christmas this week it could be waiting to explode.

We are one of the few countries still allowing flights from the UK. The new strain is here and we just don't know it.

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5 minutes ago, Dezbelief said:

We are one of the few countries still allowing flights from the UK. The new strain is here and we just don't know it.

I'm so grateful to live in best country in the world and that we can learn from our mistakes. (/sarcasm just in case it wasn't obvious)

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9 minutes ago, Dezbelief said:
18 minutes ago, bcat01 said:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/12/21/nation/coronavirus-mutation-has-been-identified-uk-heres-what-know/

If this new mutation in England would take hold in the U.S. it would overrun the healthcare system.  I would think that it is already here in a few people and with Christmas this week it could be waiting to explode.

We are one of the few countries still allowing flights from the UK. The new strain is here and we just don't know it.

I think Dez is almost certainly right -- keep in mind that this mutation is not brand-brand-new. It was first identified in September.

The information about this mutation is still indefinite, so it's still reasonable to take one of either an optimistic or a pessimistic perspective. Here's the state-of-play at present from the 12/20 New York Times:

Quote

The Coronavirus Is Mutating. What Does That Mean for Us?
Officials in Britain and South Africa claim new variants are more easily transmitted. There’s a lot more to the story, scientists say.

Just as vaccines begin to offer hope for a path out of the pandemic, officials in Britain this past weekend sounded an urgent alarm about what they called a highly contagious new variant of the coronavirus circulating in England.

...

The British variant has about 20 mutations, including several that affect how the virus locks onto human cells and infects them. These mutations may allow the variant to replicate and transmit more efficiently, said Muge Cevik, an infectious disease expert at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland and a scientific adviser to the British government.

But the estimate of greater transmissibility — British officials said the variant was as much as 70 percent more transmissible — is based on modeling and has not been confirmed in lab experiments, Dr. Cevik added.

“Over all, I think we need to have a little bit more experimental data,” she said. “We can’t entirely rule out the fact that some of this transmissibility data might be related to human behavior.”

In South Africa, too, scientists were quick to note that human behavior was driving the epidemic, not necessarily new mutations whose effect on transmissibility had yet to be quantified.

The British announcement also prompted concern that the virus might evolve to become resistant to the vaccines just now rolling out. The worries are focused on a pair of alterations in the viral genetic code that may make it less vulnerable to certain antibodies.

But several experts urged caution, saying it would take years — not months — for the virus to evolve enough to render the current vaccines impotent.

“No one should worry that there is going to be a single catastrophic mutation that suddenly renders all immunity and antibodies useless,” Dr. Bloom said.

“It is going to be a process that occurs over the time scale of multiple years and requires the accumulation of multiple viral mutations,” he added. “It’s not going to be like an on-off switch.”

The scientific nuance mattered little to Britain’s neighbors. Worried by the potential influx of travelers carrying the variant, the Netherlands said it would suspend flights from Britain from Sunday until Jan. 1.

 

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21 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

Definitely a culmination of months of people being unaware, which given the circumstances is inconsiderate. I tend to be protective of my family, and probably should have taken a deep breath and just beaten the retreat in silence, but sheesh. I can’t fathom being so clueless that I’d force a family into walking right by me during a pandemic. 

To an extent, I projected and he took the brunt of millions of people who have chosen to minimize the virus. And I’d amend the word yell, though it’s what I used. I more spoke out in my best, “Come on, man!” When he made the turn and we were forced into his turning back or getting buzzed by him, I pointed it out to him. He had no idea we had been patiently waiting for him to pass for five minutes, but in my view he should have been.

As for integrating families — not particularly worried given who is involved. SIL is pre-diabetic and overweight and they may be the one family more stringent about isolating and being careful than we are. They are bubbled.

Our other friends live in a gated community in an isolated wooded section and combination of two weeks isolation plus tests is solid.

I trust each individual involved.

 

What you are doing is more dangerous and more likely against gov't orders than what he did.  Maybe give him your christmas address so he can yell at you through the gate.

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16 hours ago, Rhythmdoctor said:

Define reputable.  There's so much out there if people looked outside of mainstream media.

Here for starters

Here's another

Not those links.   

So frustrating that people can post this stuff without warnings and TOs around these boards, but a slightly off color joke about a politician gets a few months off.   I don't get how in the eyes of the leadership one is that much more damaging than the other.  

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