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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread


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8 minutes ago, shader said:

Thanks for the opinions from a couple doctors.  I disagree.

Dr. Stephen Blatt, medical director for infectious diseases at TriHealth.
Dr. Stephen Feagins, chief clinical officer, Mercy Health–Cincinnati.
Dr. Robert Frenck, principal investigator of the National Institutes of Health-sponsored Vaccine Treatment and Evaluation Unit, director of Gamble Vaccine Research Center. He's leading the COVID-19 vaccine trials at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center.
Dr. Thomas Lamarre, infectious disease specialist, The Christ Hospital.

vs.

Shader from FBGs

 

I think I'm going with the former here.  You specifically stated "If they have antibodies, they don’t need the vaccine."  So, if you're going to make that kind of statement, I'd like to see some data behind you making that assertion that directly contradicts those who are directly in the field and have expertise to make those decisions. 

Of note, at my institution, it is recommended we all receive the vaccine as well regardless of previous infection or positive antibodies.  Once again, that decision is made from input from experts in the field.  And considering the size of our institution and the number of people involved, that's not a decision made lightly and is surely determined by data they have reviewed.  I'm pretty sure that's the case most everywhere else as well.

Here is the relevant info shared with us:

26.  Do I need a vaccine if I’ve already had COVID-19?

Yes. It’s unclear how long immunity lasts after COVID-19 infection and it may vary from individual to individual. It is likely that vaccination will ensure more consistent immunity across the population of recipients

So you can disagree as much as you want but that is NOT the current recommendation and you should not be posting that recommendation as a matter of opinion without credentials and data to back it up.

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My dad has been sick for a few weeks.  My mom called me today to say he was about to die.  I said some final words to him and he could hear me but was unable to respond.  He passed a short time later.

Not to derail anything, but we had our baby last night! She's doing amazingly well. Due to the hospital's pandemic policies, I had to leave her right after my wife was released from recovery. I can't

On a positive note, my wife gave birth to our first child this morning!! We were expecting our daughter to be born in the first week of April, which does not align very well if this hospital sees a ma

15 minutes ago, shader said:

I can’t believe there are doctors spreading the 2-3 month immunity crap.  How dumb do they think we are? When I express frustration with the medical industry it’s because of silliness like this. A quick google search shows how absurd that idea is.  As does common sense. 

Study from less than 1 month ago showing significant decline in antibodies after 60 days

Now, how it actually affects natural immunity is still unknown, but there is actual basis behind those comments.  It's not an absurd idea. 

This was also seen back in July

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16 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Study from less than 1 month ago showing significant decline in antibodies after 60 days

Now, how it actually affects natural immunity is still unknown, but there is actual basis behind those comments.  It's not an absurd idea. 

I had thought that the antibodies in the blood were supposed to decrease within a few months -- that the idea of immunity is that your body's immune system would "remember" how to make those antibodies later if faced with the same virus.

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40 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Dr. Stephen Blatt, medical director for infectious diseases at TriHealth.
Dr. Stephen Feagins, chief clinical officer, Mercy Health–Cincinnati.
Dr. Robert Frenck, principal investigator of the National Institutes of Health-sponsored Vaccine Treatment and Evaluation Unit, director of Gamble Vaccine Research Center. He's leading the COVID-19 vaccine trials at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center.
Dr. Thomas Lamarre, infectious disease specialist, The Christ Hospital.

vs.

Shader from FBGs

 

I think I'm going with the former here.  You specifically stated "If they have antibodies, they don’t need the vaccine."  So, if you're going to make that kind of statement, I'd like to see some data behind you making that assertion that directly contradicts those who are directly in the field and have expertise to make those decisions. 

Of note, at my institution, it is recommended we all receive the vaccine as well regardless of previous infection or positive antibodies.  Once again, that decision is made from input from experts in the field.  And considering the size of our institution and the number of people involved, that's not a decision made lightly and is surely determined by data they have reviewed.  I'm pretty sure that's the case most everywhere else as well.

Here is the relevant info shared with us:

26.  Do I need a vaccine if I’ve already had COVID-19?

Yes. It’s unclear how long immunity lasts after COVID-19 infection and it may vary from individual to individual. It is likely that vaccination will ensure more consistent immunity across the population of recipients

So you can disagree as much as you want but that is NOT the current recommendation and you should not be posting that recommendation as a matter of opinion without credentials and data to back it up.

Although I personally wouldn’t get a vaccine if I had it, I’m not trying to imply people shouldn’t. They should listen to their own doctors and make that decision on their own.  
 

But in terms of designing a vaccine plan, we shouldn’t be using vaccines on those that should have immunity, imo, until everyone else has received one.
 

And whether I should or shouldn’t be posting it is a bit silly. I’m a poster on a message board that no one is listening to when deciding what to do. For the record I’ve been super strict and cautious throughout this thread.

A medical professional saying that immunity probably lasts 2-3 months is a much bigger issue, imo.  Because that’s frankly just not how immunity works and I can’t find any studies that imply this is the case. On the contrary most online sources are showing quite the opposite. So that doctors analysis is likely flawed, so your appeal to authority arguments are falling flat without data to back them up.

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16 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I had thought that the antibodies in the blood were supposed to decrease within a few months -- that the idea of immunity is that your body's immune system would "remember" how to make those antibodies later if faced with the same virus.

I haven't fully reviewed the literature on this, but from what I've seen in the past and looking through stuff a bit just now, antibodies are 1) falling faster than typically seen and 2) falling faster and/or lower levels for those with mild disease compared to those with more severe disease. 

And since the vast majority of people that have had Covid have had mild or no symptoms, it is potentially significant in terms of natural immunity.

That's why the caveat that is generally stated is "we have no idea how long immunity lasts".

I will agree that her statement that natural immunity falls after 2-3 months isn't quite accurate as far as we know now. I would like to think she misspoke about antibodies instead of getting it wrong by saying natural immunity.  But it doesn't invalidate everything stated there by the others.

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21 minutes ago, shader said:

But in terms of designing a vaccine plan, we shouldn’t be using vaccines on those that should have immunity, imo, until everyone else has received one.

You can keep repeating this if you like. But, it is not supported by the "medical community" as they are recommending those currently eligible to receive the vaccine to get it despite previous infection.

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4 minutes ago, gianmarco said:
25 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I had thought that the antibodies in the blood were supposed to decrease within a few months -- that the idea of immunity is that your body's immune system would "remember" how to make those antibodies later if faced with the same virus.

I haven't fully reviewed the literature on this, but from what I've seen in the past and looking through stuff a bit just now, antibodies are 1) falling faster than typically seen and 2) falling faster and/or lower levels for those with mild disease compared to those with more severe disease. 

I didn't make clear: My post in red above was meant to be general comment about human immune response to viruses in general, not necessarily COVID-19. For instance: I don't expect that I still have varicella-zoster virus antibodies in my blood right now, 40+ years after recovering from chickenpox. But if I were exposed today -- if my understanding is correct -- my immune system would still produce varicella-zoster virus antibodies in response.

I do understand that it is known that not all viral immunity is lifelong. However, wouldn't a viral immunity of just a few months be decidedly unusual?

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17 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

You can keep repeating this if you like. But, it is not supported by the "medical community" as they are recommending those currently eligible to receive the vaccine to get it despite previous infection.

Which is my entire point.  This is a bad decision, imo, if it comes at the expense of those that definitely need it.

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8 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I didn't make clear: My post in red above was meant to be general comment about human immune response to viruses in general, not necessarily COVID-19. For instance: I don't expect that I still have varicella-zoster virus antibodies in my blood right now, 40+ years after recovering from chickenpox. But if I were exposed today -- if my understanding is correct -- my immune system would still produce varicella-zoster virus antibodies in response.

I do understand that it is known that not all viral immunity is lifelong. However, wouldn't a viral immunity of just a few months be decidedly unusual?

If the immunity only lasted 2-3 months we would be seeing thousands of reinfections in the US alone. 

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6 minutes ago, shader said:

Which is my entire point.  This is a bad decision, imo, if it comes at the expense of those that definitely need it.

Sigh.

So you think it's a bad decision and the hundreds and/or thousands of doctors (most of whom are specialists in immunology and infectious disease) across the country who have decided to give the vaccine to frontline workers regardless of previous infection somehow are ALL getting it wrong and they aren't smart enough to see what you are seeing? Or is it possible that they are making an informed decision based on data they are seeing and interpreting that you aren't able to appreciate?

That's a special kind of hubris.

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22 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I didn't make clear: My post in red above was meant to be general comment about human immune response to viruses in general, not necessarily COVID-19. For instance: I don't expect that I still have varicella-zoster virus antibodies in my blood right now, 40+ years after recovering from chickenpox. But if I were exposed today -- if my understanding is correct -- my immune system would still produce varicella-zoster virus antibodies in response.

I do understand that it is known that not all viral immunity is lifelong. However, wouldn't a viral immunity of just a few months be decidedly unusual?

Here's a good reading on it

I don't remember fully, but I think coronaviruses in general don't typically stimulate any kind of long lasting immunity. I don't know how Covid compares to other coronaviruses in general.

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7 minutes ago, Don Hutson said:

 

Great summary article.

I'm sure part of the thinking behind vaccinating all front line workers regardless of previous infection has to do with the ability to still spread disease. There is hope the vaccine will be more effective in preventing that than current natural immunity. 

However, I'm sure there will still be some who view that as a bad decision, of course.

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8 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

For those of us who are not medical researchers or otherwise working on the very front lines of covid-related knowledge discovery, it's almost certainly best to tentatively operate under the assumption that covid behaves like other viruses are known to behave.  Obviously we can always update our priors as new information comes in, but taking as our starting point "this virus is different and probably worse than all other viruses that have come before" is most likely going to (1) lead you to believe things that turn out to be wrong (most things are normal, few things are abnormal, and betting on "abnormal" out of the gate in the absence of any special information will lead to error most of the time), and (2) unnecessarily freak people out (covid is bad and scary enough to without making things up). 

At one point, we had people cooking their mail.  We still have people wiping down their groceries and getting anxious about taking walks outdoors.  At one point, there was a mini-freak out over people possibly getting re-infected with covid, which we now know is extraordinarily rare, like winning the world's worst lottery.  We want people taking sensible precautions.  We don't want to mentally traumatize people, and we don't want to put them in a situation where they throw their hands up and say "#### it" either.  

Covid is a "novel" coronavirus in the sense that it is a new virus that humans haven't been exposed to before.  It's not an alien virus.  It took a grand total of one weekend to create a 95% effective vaccine, because it's a virus and we have a pretty good idea of how to deal with viruses.

Avoid other people, wear a mask, wash your hands, and get vaccinated at the first opportunity.  Don't get yourself or others worked up over a hypothetical Captain Tripps mutation that probably isn't going to happen.

 

This is a reasonable post, though parasaurolophus’ point is also valid. Somebody posted an article a long time ago that espoused the theory viruses tend to mutate over time to less virulent forms. This idea has been taken as gospel by some, though it’s hardly reassurance SARS-CoV-2 will become less deadly. While it makes sense for a virus to mutate to spread as efficiently as possibly and keep its hosts alive as long as they can facilitate spread, evolution isn’t that deterministic.

Mutations occur randomly, period. There are plenty of examples of viruses becoming worse in response to selective pressure, including the flu pandemic of 1918, and HIV following exposure to antiretroviral therapy. Moreover, a more contagious virus will infect larger swaths of the population more quickly, before effective treatments can be developed and vaccines administered. Even if an individual virus is 10% less deadly, infecting 70% more people will cause more deaths, and be far more likely to overwhelm our healthcare resources.

I don’t think anybody is suggesting covid is the worst possible virus, or advocating a move away from sensible precautions to maximize public health. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it’s reasonable to assume SARS-CoV-2 will behave like related viruses, but we also need extra vigilance and an open mind to the possibility it won’t.

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With regard to vaccine prioritization, there are a number of reasonable ways to do this.  Everyone seems to agree that front-line medical workers need to be vaccinated first, which makes a ton of sense.  After that, there are good arguments to be made for prioritizing the elderly, people with multiple co-morbidities, and other (non-medical) essential workers.  I'm pretty much okay with any of those, in whatever order.  Just pick something sensible and go with it.  For the rest of us, our job is to be okay with any sensible approach and not nitpick whatever gets adopted.  

This is easy for me to say because I'm going to be a little ways down the vaccine list no matter what.  I'll go ahead of the general public because I work in education, but I'm not going to land in any especially high-priority tier regardless.  In general, it's good to have a nice, clean demarcation between "high-priority" and "low-priority" folks to reduce the incentive to game the system, so I would argue in favor of something fairly simple and straightforward.  

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5 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

With regard to vaccine prioritization, there are a number of reasonable ways to do this.  Everyone seems to agree that front-line medical workers need to be vaccinated first, which makes a ton of sense.  After that, there are good arguments to be made for prioritizing the elderly, people with multiple co-morbidities, and other (non-medical) essential workers.  I'm pretty much okay with any of those, in whatever order.  Just pick something sensible and go with it.  For the rest of us, our job is to be okay with any sensible approach and not nitpick whatever gets adopted.  

This is easy for me to say because I'm going to be a little ways down the vaccine list no matter what.  I'll go ahead of the general public because I work in education, but I'm not going to land in any especially high-priority tier regardless.  In general, it's good to have a nice, clean demarcation between "high-priority" and "low-priority" folks to reduce the incentive to game the system, so I would argue in favor of something fairly simple and straightforward.  

Seems right now age vs comorbidity vs. exposure risk is a hot button topic. 

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1 hour ago, gianmarco said:

Here's a good reading on it

I don't remember fully, but I think coronaviruses in general don't typically stimulate any kind of long lasting immunity. I don't know how Covid compares to other coronaviruses in general.

This is a good article. Thanks. That old study seems not too unlike the way the vaccine could possibly work. You might still get it, even spread it, but not get sick. That seemed pretty encouraging to me, actually for long term "immunity". 

Edited by parasaurolophus
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47 minutes ago, Don Hutson said:

good read!

money quote, to me:

Quote

 

But even if antibodies disappear, then the cells that manufacture them, called B cells, may still be around. B cells for Spanish Flu have been found in people 90 years after that pandemic.

If the same is true with Covid, then a second infection would be milder than the first.

 

Didn't know that about Spanish Flu, that's crazy. And awesome.

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2 hours ago, gianmarco said:

Sigh.

So you think it's a bad decision and the hundreds and/or thousands of doctors (most of whom are specialists in immunology and infectious disease) across the country who have decided to give the vaccine to frontline workers regardless of previous infection somehow are ALL getting it wrong and they aren't smart enough to see what you are seeing? Or is it possible that they are making an informed decision based on data they are seeing and interpreting that you aren't able to appreciate?

That's a special kind of hubris.

I was simply responding to IvanK, saying that a good "common sense" measure would be to first vaccinate those that have NOT had covid-19. 

If all frontline workers need the vaccine, I have no problem with that.  I wasn't really talking about them, never have I said frontline workers shouldn't get it, and I'm well aware that they are first up on the list.  To be honest, I'd imagine most front-line workers have already been vaccinated?   They are battling covid day in and day out. I wish you'd look at the context and figure out that I'm looking at a larger strategy of prioritizing who gets the vaccine, rather than rush to claim that my opinions are opposite of all those in the entire medical field, which is a little thing you seem to enjoy doing, and in this case is flat out not true..

Look, if there are plenty of vaccines to go around and most people aren't lining up to get them, then I suppose I don't really care who gets them.  But I suspect everyone and their brother want to get vaccinated as quickly as possible.  I know my family and I would absolutely love to get a vaccine, but we are way down the list.

The goal here should be to end the pandemic as quickly as possible and turn this into a manageable situation, which it currently is NOT.  The quickest way to do that, imo, is to vaccinate as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.  

There are good debates to be had between vaccinating the super spreading age group of 20-50, and vaccinating the elderly and those with co-morbidities first.  I've seen good arguments for both but heavily lean towards vaccinating everyone with a high risk of dying first.

My point was that (aside from frontline workers who we all agree need it asap) we should strike those that have already gotten covid-19 off the list for the first few months, as they are LIKELY to have immunity.  It just makes sense.

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Went and got tested today for travel to Alaska (you need a  negative test taken within 72 hours of flying there now if you're a non-resident).   Quick and painless.  No more stabbing you in the brain with a q-tip.

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Can someone explain to me why the nursing home/older folks are first to get the vaccine?

It seems to me that they are a group less likely to travel/shop/expose others and we should be protecting them from others - not therm other way around.  Maybe the generation below that would be better.  The ones taking care of or checking up on the older folks.

Then it would be easier to even break those down by comorbitities or whatever for priority.  Just feels like we are rushing to protect the most susceptible without consideration for most likely to be infected.  Technically, nursing homes should be free of the virus (although I've been in a few homes and I understand that's not the case).

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

Had this discussion. Wife’s sister is obese and had to face that fact in realizing through state guidelines that’s she’s Stage 2. My comment is good. She can deal with implications later. I don’t care about fairness. I care about immunizing the most likely to die if infected. Hope rollouts are quick, but we’re in this together. Think of this as if everyone were in your immediate family and you’re protective. 

Regarding the bolded, regardless of age?  Not trying to be a d, but obviously an 83 year old grandma with no health issues is probably still more likely to die than a 55 yo with pre-diabetes (not an m.d.).  

I know it sucks to consider and in no way am I going down the "death panel" road but in reality, 83 yo grandma should be more protected if she's in a home.  We know now that that may not be the case but why not immunize everyone/anyone that may bring it to her 1st?  Healthcare workers 1.   Responsible kin 2.  

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4 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

We’re an irresponsible country. 83 yo grandma is exposed to MAGA kid and grandkids who claim they’re totally safe, but were on Grindr.

Lol @ MAGA kids on grindr. Unless the G doesn't stand for what what I thought it did...

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10 hours ago, SpurrierisisGod said:

Can someone explain to me why the nursing home/older folks are first to get the vaccine?

It seems to me that they are a group less likely to travel/shop/expose others and we should be protecting them from others - not therm other way around.  Maybe the generation below that would be better.  The ones taking care of or checking up on the older folks.

Then it would be easier to even break those down by comorbitities or whatever for priority.  Just feels like we are rushing to protect the most susceptible without consideration for most likely to be infected.  Technically, nursing homes should be free of the virus (although I've been in a few homes and I understand that's not the case).

From what I understand, they’re not certain that the vaccine prevents you from spreading it. Vaccines can either just stop you from getting sick from a virus, or they can stop you from getting sick AND also prevent you from spreading it to others. If the vaccines just stop you from getting sick but don’t stop you from spreading it, then vaccinating those most likely to spread it doesn’t actually protect anyone else.

I could be wrong though.

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15 minutes ago, GroveDiesel said:

From what I understand, they’re not certain that the vaccine prevents you from spreading it. Vaccines can either just stop you from getting sick from a virus, or they can stop you from getting sick AND also prevent you from spreading it to others. If the vaccines just stop you from getting sick but don’t stop you from spreading it, then vaccinating those most likely to spread it doesn’t actually protect anyone else.

When you say "stop you from getting sick," you mean it only reduce symptoms rather than prevent you from contracting it? Because in my mind (non-medical obviously), if it stops you from contracting the virus, then there would be nothing to spread. Whereas if it still allows you to contract it but reduces the symptoms, then I can see still being able to spread it.

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11 hours ago, SpurrierisisGod said:

Can someone explain to me why the nursing home/older folks are first to get the vaccine?

It seems to me that they are a group less likely to travel/shop/expose others and we should be protecting them from others - not therm other way around.  Maybe the generation below that would be better.  The ones taking care of or checking up on the older folks.

Then it would be easier to even break those down by comorbitities or whatever for priority.  Just feels like we are rushing to protect the most susceptible without consideration for most likely to be infected.  Technically, nursing homes should be free of the virus (although I've been in a few homes and I understand that's not the case).

So they don’t die?  There are two groups to vaccinate if you want to stop people from dying in such large numbers.  Those with co-morbidities and the elderly.  Knock those two groups out and the death rate plummets.

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12 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

When you say "stop you from getting sick," you mean it only reduce symptoms rather than prevent you from contracting it? Because in my mind (non-medical obviously), if it stops you from contracting the virus, then there would be nothing to spread. Whereas if it still allows you to contract it but reduces the symptoms, then I can see still being able to spread it.

From everything I’ve read, asymptomatic spread is far rarer than symptomatic spread.  So a vaccine that keeps you from getting sick should reduce your chances of spreading it, but not eliminate them.  

 

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I know my neighbors somewhat. We help each other with home projects, watching each others homes, hang out for a beer around a fire every once in a while,say hi in the street etc....

I would not say any of us are super close.

So I hear a knock at the door and its my neighbors wife with a home made pie she made us for Christmas. She is unmasked and obviously pretty happy to be giving away pies. I did not know what to do. I did not want to open the second door to take the pie but I also didn't want to hurt anyones feelings. I ended up opening the second door and taking the pie at arms distance. I think I was sort of obvious that I did not want to be close to her without being to rude. In my mind I was kind of upset. WTF brings home made pies unmasked to their neighbors during a pandemic?

I feel like I have four days to not catch this before my vaccination and I was forced into risking my health for a pie.

I think she said it was a cream cheese pie and I am not sure what that is. I see its a graham cracker crust and a cherry topping. It weighs about 5 lbs!!!!

Do I serve it? Do I throw it out?

I have reservations about this pie which has been made worse by my recent viewing of Fargo.

* Several months ago her husband told me he thought all this was made up.

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3 minutes ago, prosopis said:

I know my neighbors somewhat. We help each other with home projects, watching each others homes, hang out for a beer around a fire every once in a while,say hi in the street etc....

I would not say any of us are super close.

So I hear a knock at the door and its my neighbors wife with a home made pie she made us for Christmas. She is unmasked and obviously pretty happy to be giving away pies. I did not know what to do. I did not want to open the second door to take the pie but I also didn't want to hurt anyones feelings. I ended up opening the second door and taking the pie at arms distance. I think I was sort of obvious that I did not want to be close to her without being to rude. In my mind I was kind of upset. WTF brings home made pies unmasked to their neighbors during a pandemic?

I feel like I have four days to not catch this before my vaccination and I was forced into risking my health for a pie.

I think she said it was a cream cheese pie and I am not sure what that is. I see its a graham cracker crust and a cherry topping. It weighs about 5 lbs!!!!

Do I serve it? Do I throw it out?

I have reservations about this pie which has been made worse by my recent viewing of Fargo.

* Several months ago her husband told me he thought all this was made up.

Do you like pie? Do they have cats? 

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1 hour ago, DallasDMac said:

When you say "stop you from getting sick," you mean it only reduce symptoms rather than prevent you from contracting it? Because in my mind (non-medical obviously), if it stops you from contracting the virus, then there would be nothing to spread. Whereas if it still allows you to contract it but reduces the symptoms, then I can see still being able to spread it.

I’m a moron so I don’t know the answer to any of this stuff. I do know that the crux of it was the center of some controversy this week when Nate Silver (and some other guys like Matt Yglesias) called out a bunch of epidemiologists with the CDC because he said their own data didn’t support their recommendation to prioritize not just the elderly, but frontline workers and minority groups. He said the data was clear that the elderly should be vaccinated first, and they pushed back saying that Silver was only assuming that the vaccine prevented illness instead of also preventing transmission. I’m still not sure who was right, but the very next day the CDC revised their recommendation to almost exactly what Silver was arguing.

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19 minutes ago, prosopis said:

I know my neighbors somewhat. We help each other with home projects, watching each others homes, hang out for a beer around a fire every once in a while,say hi in the street etc....

I would not say any of us are super close.

So I hear a knock at the door and its my neighbors wife with a home made pie she made us for Christmas. She is unmasked and obviously pretty happy to be giving away pies. I did not know what to do. I did not want to open the second door to take the pie but I also didn't want to hurt anyones feelings. I ended up opening the second door and taking the pie at arms distance. I think I was sort of obvious that I did not want to be close to her without being to rude. In my mind I was kind of upset. WTF brings home made pies unmasked to their neighbors during a pandemic?

I feel like I have four days to not catch this before my vaccination and I was forced into risking my health for a pie.

I think she said it was a cream cheese pie and I am not sure what that is. I see its a graham cracker crust and a cherry topping. It weighs about 5 lbs!!!!

Do I serve it? Do I throw it out?

I have reservations about this pie which has been made worse by my recent viewing of Fargo.

* Several months ago her husband told me he thought all this was made up.

I’m guessing it’s basically a cheesecake pie. That means only the crust was probably baked. I think the risk is probably very low of transmission, but I would definitely assume that she exhaled droplets onto the top of that pie that were not then baked.

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I wouldn't eat the pie because you don't know who this person has been around and people are generally stupid.

My wife was placed in quarantine last week because her immediate co-worker tested positive. This lady was texting my wife late last week that her whole family had it and some were sicker than others. Yesterday the doorbell rings, I look at my cameras and it is this lady. She then begins to knock. She stands in our driveway and begins to call my wife (we hoped she would get the hint and leave), but then she begins to text my wife. My wife had to acknowledge that because my wife is still in her quarantine period. Turns out, she came by to drop off her stupid secret Santa stuff. Now this is a person who is confirmed positive, still feeling sick and is supposed to be in quarantine (my wife's employer told them to obey the 14 day rule) and yet, here she is on our porch. 

We took the stuff she left (whatever it may be) and put it in the garage and do not plan on touching it until next week. 

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9 minutes ago, Courtjester said:

I wouldn't eat the pie because you don't know who this person has been around and people are generally stupid.

My wife was placed in quarantine last week because her immediate co-worker tested positive. This lady was texting my wife late last week that her whole family had it and some were sicker than others. Yesterday the doorbell rings, I look at my cameras and it is this lady. She then begins to knock. She stands in our driveway and begins to call my wife (we hoped she would get the hint and leave), but then she begins to text my wife. My wife had to acknowledge that because my wife is still in her quarantine period. Turns out, she came by to drop off her stupid secret Santa stuff. Now this is a person who is confirmed positive, still feeling sick and is supposed to be in quarantine (my wife's employer told them to obey the 14 day rule) and yet, here she is on our porch. 

We took the stuff she left (whatever it may be) and put it in the garage and do not plan on touching it until next week. 

:wall:

I would have absolutely said something. She is endangering people's lives. There's no chance she only went to your house, too.

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22 hours ago, gianmarco said:

Stella Immanuel

To put it nicely, she's a quack.  I'm sorry you listen to that and believe it.  I already responded earlier and explained that the physicians in these videos are either not true physicians or have lost their licenses.  They are conspiracy theorists.  They don't believe viruses exist.  They don't believe AIDS exists.  They believe in witches and demons.

None of it is true science.  Yes, there are doctors and scientists on both sides, as you stated.  However, for every 1 doctor/scientist on one side (i.e. this video), there are 99 on the other side.  There's a reason for that.  If you truly want to be educated on what's going on, stop believing the fringe minority conspiracy folks.

ETA -- More on that video

America's Frontline Doctors

But none of the most vocal members have practices that would place them on the actual front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic. Some don't currently practice at all.

Two of those appearing at the Monday event are ophthalmologists, one of whom is no longer licensed.

First off, let me just say thanks to you for trying to engage in an actual discussion and not just resort to calling me names because my beliefs do not match that of mainstream. I am a human being who cares immensely about America and our freedom.  I am not here to troll. I am looking for truth in a sea of confusion.  Everyone thinks their personal opinions are the 'RIGHT' ones and anyone else who has a different take must be 'dumb' and deserves to 'die'.  This is WRONG.

So I read through the first part of your article that attempts to discredit the doctors in the "America's Frontline Doctors" video.  Pointing out that a certain doctor has their office in a strip mall should not discredit anyone, that's bush league journalism. Not every doctor has the means or ability to have a nice office on main street.  Dr. Stella Immanuel is an actual doctor.  Her political beliefs (somehow the media knows she supports Trump) should not discredit her medical background and experience.  Nothing I read about her makes me think she is a 'quack'.  There is not one perfect human being on this planet.  And it's real easy for the mainstream folks who own and run the media to attempt to make these actual doctors appear to be 'quacks'.  She is accused is of 'promoting conspiracies about the medical profession'.  So she is accusing the medical profession of conspiracies and those same professionals are trying to discredit her?  Imagine that.  Of course they're trying to discredit her. Someone wrote an article saying Dr. Immanuel is a trump supporter and she thinks some medical conditions are simply witches and demons.  It must be true!!  Oh she's a Trump supporter?!!  Well then we KNOW she is an absolute idiot and her thoughts/opinions/expertise certainly don't matter!

This is exactly what's wrong in America that most do not recognize.  Everyone is an expert on everything now.  Just open any hot topic post here in the Shark Pool and you'll see.  A bunch of dudes (some women) who have read a few articles (most likely from mainstream sources) and proclaim to know EVERYTHING there is to be known about said topic.  It's laughable.  So instead of laughing at experts who say things other than the mainstream narrative - we should really be listening MORE.  Nobody here is an expert on virology. There are actual experts on virology who are saying things that dispute what Fauci says.  Who is right? Who is wrong?  When an establishment wants you to believe one side, they try to discredit the other side.  Compliance tactics 101.  

Here's a real important question to anyone who thinks these other doctors are 'Quacks'.  What do any of these doctors have to gain by going against the mainstream narrative and putting their names and reputations on the line?  I would encourage everyone who laughs at these non-popular opinions to really think hard about that. These folks have EVERYTHING to lose and nothing to gain by sticking their necks out.  Much like me on this forum.  It's very difficult to speak up and out against something that EVERYONE else is taking the other side.  Y'all look at me as a troll. Well, anyone on here who knows me at all knows this is not true.  I've never been a troll.  It's not easy searching for truth.  People get angry at me.  Call me names.  Say I'm dumb (or imply it).  Let me reiterate - it's not easy taking the other side but I'm so profoundly in love with freedom, I keep doing it despite the ridicule.  Because it's so difficult to speak out, it's even more important to LISTEN and HEAR those people.  Why would they risk it all?  MAYBE they have a point.  MAYBE there is more to this pandemic?  Maybe hydroxychloroquine does cure Covid?

All I'm begging for is for people to be more critical of our government and elected officials.  Ask more questions.  Governments have controlled and oppressed their people throughout the entire existence of recorded history. Why would now be any different? Every decade the government releases old classified documents that reveal just how manipulative and controlling our government is, yet people think "that stuff doesn't happen now".  YES IT DOES. 

There's a great book called: "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion".  In it, the book discusses various tricks that have been identified and used over time to gain obedience and compliance from people.  When I look at this Pandemic in that light, it's so dang obvious this is being used for compliance.  Everything that's being done is a step-by-step instruction manual on how to get people to comply.  

I'm terrified of the future.  If its this easy to get the majority of people to obey and willingly inject themselves with a FIRST EVER DNA-altering vaccine with not enough time to test it, then we are in BIG trouble.  We no longer live in the land of the free and home of the brave.  This is about control and shaming anyone who doesn't get on board and obey and comply. I don't care that people want to get the vaccine. I care that those people are yelling at the top of their lungs that anyone NOT getting the vaccine is: dumb, deserves to be ostracized from society, should lose their job, should not be able to enjoy the benefits of normal society (concerts, eating out, socializing) and deserves to die (yes, I've read/heard numerous people wish this on 'anti-vaxxers').

If the majority is getting the vaccine, why does it matter if I elect not to?  You're already protected right?

Thanks again @gianmarco for having a civil discussion with me. I care DEEPLY about this country.  I volunteered my life for it.  I am a father and husband. I do not deserve to be ostracized because I am choosing what I believe is right for MY body.  If you want to get the vaccine, please do but PLEASE let me decide for myself what is best for ME and MY family.  

 

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My 73 year old father with an autoimmune disease (MG) has been very careful during this pandemic.  He never really liked people or social stuff that much before, so staying super local wasn't a big deal for him. 

He has been married to his second wife for 20 years.  She has 2 adult children, the oldest of which is 50 or so.  He's had a rough go on the last few years as his wife left him and his business (logistics, moving, storage) failed. He's moving to Las Vegas to live with his younger sister as opposed to being homeless.

Anyway, my father agreed to help transport his stuff from LA to LV. In the process, he'll be spending 2 days and nights in LV with the whole family, including 3 teenagers and an adult that is a bartender.

I am very concerned by this. He's very concerned but also very conflicted.  He said, "there's no way I can't not do this." He feels an obligation to help out his stepson and not refuse based on COVID.

I asked him to stay in a hotel and not at their house if he must stay overnight.  Also to cut down to 1 night.  And stay outside as much as possible, and inside never without mask.

I'm disappointed that his wife has put him in this position but i don't know how much of it was stated vs expected by wife vs internal expectations.  I know he's an adult and can make his own decisions, but if something happened to my father as the result of this visit, I don't know if I could forgive that part of the family for putting him in that situation.  Ugh

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Doors and windows are open. Debating wearing masks for my son's and his wife's visit.

Just the 5 of us for a quick visit but his wife's sister has been staying with them and shes been working wawa this whole time while going to school.  

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