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Are we already living in a dictatorship?


Skoo

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6 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

That isn’t what he did in this case — he asked the Governor of Georgia to overturn the decision of GA’s voters.  You realize that isn’t remotely the same thing.  You know this.  

No he didn't.  He didn't do that at all.

You should read @Joe Bryant response to this very topic that @timschochet also brought up and said the same thing as you: https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/776645-trump-2020-hq-the-great-place/?do=findComment&comment=23120619

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

No he didn't.  He didn't do that at all.

You should read @Joe Bryant response to this very topic that @timschochet also brought up and said the same thing as you: https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/776645-trump-2020-hq-the-great-place/?do=findComment&comment=23120619

Joes post confirmed Trump tried to get a Governor to push his state to overturn the outcome.

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11 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Same with concerns over voting machines. They were high risk for fraud going into the 2020 elections. Now they are a critical component of the "most secure election we've ever seen."

"Cool.... can we see those machines?"

"Nope!"

Why didn’t we look at them in 2016?

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2 minutes ago, Max Power said:

It tough to fight the most extensive voter fraud organization in history on a timeline. 

For posterity, can you please list the parties involved in this organization?

BTW - I would use the word conspiracy if I were you. 

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15 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

No he didn't.  He didn't do that at all.

You should read @Joe Bryant response to this very topic that @timschochet also brought up and said the same thing as you: https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/776645-trump-2020-hq-the-great-place/?do=findComment&comment=23120619

Umm.  He asked the governor to convince the legislature to overturn the voters’ decision.  Splitting hairs.  It’s nearly the exact same thing.  That isn’t normal behavior in a democracy.

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1 minute ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Umm.  He asked the governor to convince the legislature to overturn the voters’ decision.  Splitting hairs.  It’s nearly the exact same thing.  That isn’t normal behavior in a democracy.

I simply don't believe that making a phone call and asking "violates the law".  I suppose I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is going to be convinced other than Trump haters.  Had Kemp actually done something, then maybe you would have a case.  Also, simply asking for an audit is not a violation but, again, I'm not a lawyer.

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3 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I simply don't believe that making a phone call and asking "violates the law".  I suppose I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is going to be convinced other than Trump haters.  Had Kemp actually done something, then maybe you would have a case.  Also, simply asking for an audit is not a violation but, again, I'm not a lawyer.

Appreciate the honest disagreement.  We disagree but I respect the difference.

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20 minutes ago, JAA said:

Some lawsuits get labeled frivolous. When should we start labeling these go-no-where suits “frivolous”?

Seems like it's up to the Judiciary to do that.

Although, MOST of these lawsuits are not Trump campaign lawsuits.  The Trump campaign has filed only 3 lawsuits according to Giuliani.

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43 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I simply don't believe that making a phone call and asking "violates the law".  I suppose I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is going to be convinced other than Trump haters.  Had Kemp actually done something, then maybe you would have a case.  Also, simply asking for an audit is not a violation but, again, I'm not a lawyer.

Just to be crystal clear, I never said it violates the law.  

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8 minutes ago, JAA said:

FWIW - I’m pretty sure it’s an ethical violation to use your office to influence others for personal gain. Ethics though, those are optional, am I right?

That's a fantastic question. Let's see what Bill or Hillary Clinton has to say about ethics.

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On 2/12/2020 at 5:44 AM, Skoo said:

A few years ago this would've sounded insane, today not so much. ....

Basically what he said is that when you switch over to a dictatorship, it still has the appearance of a democracy....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-feudalism

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/05/29/coronavirus-pandemic-bringing-return-feudalism-column/5278510002/

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/2013/10/were-living-system-new-feudalism-heres-how-change-it

 

https://prospect.org/economy/rise-of-neo-feudalism/

 

How coronavirus pandemic is bringing a return to feudalism

As in the Middle Ages, some classes have emerged stronger from the pandemic.

Joel Kotkin

The COVID-19 pandemic has disrupted many things, but also accelerated America’s descent into a new form of feudalism. The preexisting conditions of extreme economic concentration, inequality and reduced social mobility already were painfully evident before, but the pandemic has made them considerably worse....

As in the Middle Ages, some classes have emerged stronger from the pandemic. Clear winners have bolstered the technology oligarchs' — the modern version of the medieval aristocracy — already rapidly growing stranglehold over the economy. With the shift to online retail, streaming services and greater surveillance, tech stock prices have soared as others have lagged.

American business is now, perhaps more than any time in the past century, dominated by a handful of powerful, well-financed corporations. Once seen as dominated by risk-taking entrepreneurs starting in a garage and backed by credit card debt, tech has been defined by corporate concentration, what one Silicon Valley wag labeled “feudalism with better marketing.”

....As the clerisy and the oligarchs’ power has waxed, those of the yeoman class, largely small businesses and property owners, have waned. This process was already evident before the pandemic, with declining homeownership, a growing concentration of economic power and declining rates of entrepreneurship.   Even before the pandemic, Main Street merchants were already reeling from competition from online competitors like Amazon, as well as Wall Street-funded chains. According to the JPMorgan Chase Institute, 50% of small businesses have a mere 15 days of cash buffer or less. If the shutdown lasts much longer, as many as three-quarters of independent restaurants simply won’t make it.

This may be made worse by a recovery plan that even The Wall Street Journal admits is “putting Wall Street ahead of companies across Middle America.” Large chains have proved far more adept at accessing Washington’s money than their smaller, less capitalized counterparts. For millions of Americans, the doors of opportunity are closing. The biggest drops in hiring have been concentrated in recreation and travel, mostly personal contact jobs that employ many poor workers. Employment in this sector has dropped more than 70% while remaining remarkably stable in such fields as computer networking and through the public sector.

Andrew Yang:After coronavirus, we can build economy that works for all Americans

Almost 40% of Americans making under $40,000 a year have lost their jobs. Salaried workers have been laid off at roughly half the rate of hourly workers. The unemployment rate of those with less than a high school diploma jumped from 6.8% to 21.2% in a month. For college graduates, it rose from 2.5% to 8.4%.

...Since 2009, the top 1 per cent has taken home 95 per cent of income gains. Over the same time period, the five largest “Too Big to Fail” banks have grown by 30 per cent. The richest 400 US citizens now have more wealth than 185 million of their fellow Americans combined....More than 75 per cent of the US public is living from pay cheque to pay cheque. On top of that, there is now an entire generation of low-paid workers who have gone into severe debt in the process of getting their college degrees. Student debt has exploded to over 1 trillion dollars. With 60 per cent of the few new jobs being created in the part-time, temporary and low-paying service sector of the economy, this generation will be locked into a lifetime of debt slavery, modern-day indentured servitude.

 

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10 hours ago, sho nuff said:

Stacy Abrams as an excuse now Hillary.  Anything to keep from agreeing things look bad for Trump.

Ethical violations are ethical violations. File them against them all. I don’t understand the point here.

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15 hours ago, Leroy Hoard said:

Not yet, but give us time. Anything is possible.

Definitely not a dictatorship but Trump is trying under the guise of vague election fraud. This is how dictators often come to power- through legal or semi-legal routes, under claims of needing to clean up the country, etc. We have seen the courts act appropriately and defend against these moves. Now we just have to find out the GOP is actually going to handle this. They seem very hesitant to be on the bad side of their leader and his very devoted followers.

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

But failing. It’s a silly question. Dictators don’t call bureaucrats and beg them to act. They give orders. 

Exactly.

I think I had posted in here previously and said the same thing. Dictators kill people to get their way.  They don't go around begging and making a case as to why they should get their way.  People get sent to jail, people disappear off the streets, political rivals are murdered, death squads are sent out on patrol and the constitution is suspended on a regular basis.

When that starts happening then we can start a thread about it.  Until then, this thread is silly and is just another example of the over-the-top, hyperbolic drama we've seen over the last four years.  

You guys are literally posting on an internet message board thoughts about how you hate the current president. How do you think that would fly in a dictatorship?  Pro tip: it wouldn't.  Most of you in a real dictatorship wouldn't have gotten past your first post before the goon squad showed up at your door.

If only you guys comparing the US to a dictatorship have actually lived under a dictatorship.  Then you would know the difference. 

Good grief.

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16 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Exactly.

I think I had posted in here previously and said the same thing. Dictators kill people to get their way.  They don't go around begging and making a case as to why they should get their way.  People get sent to jail, people disappear off the streets, political rivals are murdered, death squads are sent out on patrol and the constitution is suspended on a regular basis.

When that starts happening then we can start a thread about it.  Until then, this thread is silly and is just another example of the over-the-top, hyperbolic drama we've seen over the last four years.  

You guys are literally posting on an internet message board thoughts about how you hate the current president. How do you think that would fly in a dictatorship?  Pro tip: it wouldn't.  Most of you in a real dictatorship wouldn't have gotten past your first post before the goon squad showed up at your door.

If only you guys comparing the US to a dictatorship have actually lived under a dictatorship.  Then you would know the difference. 

Good grief.

Fear mongering is a powerful and commonly used tool by both US parties.  

"They'll take your guns!!"  "He's trying to be a dictator!!"  "They're stealing the election!!"  "Nazis!!!!!"

I'm so sick of and numb to all of it at this point.  Just a bunch of suckers falling for marketing (like my wife and infomercials).  America will keep trucking along and the world is not ending.

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19 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Exactly.

I think I had posted in here previously and said the same thing. Dictators kill people to get their way.  They don't go around begging and making a case as to why they should get their way.  People get sent to jail, people disappear off the streets, political rivals are murdered, death squads are sent out on patrol and the constitution is suspended on a regular basis.

When that starts happening then we can start a thread about it.  Until then, this thread is silly and is just another example of the over-the-top, hyperbolic drama we've seen over the last four years.  

You guys are literally posting on an internet message board thoughts about how you hate the current president. How do you think that would fly in a dictatorship?  Pro tip: it wouldn't.  Most of you in a real dictatorship wouldn't have gotten past your first post before the goon squad showed up at your door.

If only you guys comparing the US to a dictatorship have actually lived under a dictatorship.  Then you would know the difference. 

Good grief.

Weird, months ago I posted the thoughts of someone in my family that did live under a dictatorship and would often go back and visit his mother until she passed. In fact, it was in response to a post of yours very similar to the one I just quoted. 

Here

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Just now, rcam said:

Weird, months ago I posted the thoughts of someone in my family that did live under a dictatorship and would often go back and visit his mother until she passed. In fact, it was in response to a post of yours very similar to the one I just quoted. 

Here

And you found it! Congrats!

But that doesn't change my point. 

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8 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

Exactly.

I think I had posted in here previously and said the same thing. Dictators kill people to get their way.  They don't go around begging and making a case as to why they should get their way.  People get sent to jail, people disappear off the streets, political rivals are murdered, death squads are sent out on patrol and the constitution is suspended on a regular basis.

When that starts happening then we can start a thread about it.  Until then, this thread is silly and is just another example of the over-the-top, hyperbolic drama we've seen over the last four years.  

You guys are literally posting on an internet message board thoughts about how you hate the current president. How do you think that would fly in a dictatorship?  Pro tip: it wouldn't.  Most of you in a real dictatorship wouldn't have gotten past your first post before the goon squad showed up at your door.

If only you guys comparing the US to a dictatorship have actually lived under a dictatorship.  Then you would know the difference. 

Good grief.

How familiar are you with the path that Venezuela took?  Or Zimbabwe?   Or Russia?  Did they all immediately become “dictatorships” overnight?

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1 hour ago, Alex P Keaton said:

How familiar are you with the path that Venezuela took?  Or Zimbabwe?   Or Russia?  Did they all immediately become “dictatorships” overnight?

Each of the nations you name has a distinct history. None is remotely comparable to ours. 
But in all three cases the actual transition was actually pretty quick. In Russia the Communist Party seized power and declared a dictatorship. In Zimbabwe, Mugabe, who had never been elected in the first place, declared himself President for life. In Venezuela Chavez started arresting leading members of the opposition from the moment he took office. 

It’s very hard to find a slow transition to dictatorship; I can’t think of one. 

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Each of the nations you name has a distinct history. None is remotely comparable to ours. 
But in all three cases the actual transition was actually pretty quick. In Russia the Communist Party seized power and declared a dictatorship. In Zimbabwe, Mugabe, who had never been elected in the first place, declared himself President for life. In Venezuela Chavez started arresting leading members of the opposition from the moment he took office. 

It’s very hard to find a slow transition to dictatorship; I can’t think of one. 

If the above is what you know, then you need to read more about Zimbabwe and Venezuela.

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21 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Each of the nations you name has a distinct history. None is remotely comparable to ours. 
But in all three cases the actual transition was actually pretty quick. In Russia the Communist Party seized power and declared a dictatorship. In Zimbabwe, Mugabe, who had never been elected in the first place, declared himself President for life. In Venezuela Chavez started arresting leading members of the opposition from the moment he took office. 

It’s very hard to find a slow transition to dictatorship; I can’t think of one. 

Thanks, Tim.  You explained it perfectly!  :thumbup:

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14 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

If the above is what you know, then you need to read more about Zimbabwe and Venezuela.

Or, conversely, you could move to a dictatorship of your choice and report back to us in 10 years with your REAL LIFE experience on them

People who live under dictatorship FLEE to this country to escape them.  You should talk to some of those people and how they think the US is a dictatorship. 

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14 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

If the above is what you know, then you need to read more about Zimbabwe and Venezuela.

I’ve read a couple books on Rhodesia/Zimbabwe; on Venezuela I’ve pretty much relied on watching the events as reported by the MSM in real time. I’m sure you’re correct that I need to read more and I invite you to lead me to some good sources; tia. 

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Sure it was.  What's not perfect is your hyperbolic statements adding to the already over-the-top hyperbolic thread.

My comments were NOT hyperbolic nor were they statements.  I asked reasonable questions, which you didn’t bother answering, likely because you know the answers would be contrary to your preferred narrative.

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1 minute ago, Alex P Keaton said:

My comments were NOT hyperbolic nor were they statements.  I asked reasonable questions, which you didn’t bother answering, likely because you know the answers would be contrary to your preferred narrative.

I answered your questions and your response was that I am inaccurate. Which is a possibility I certainly don’t dismiss. But I’d very much like you to explain further. 

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4 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Or, conversely, you could move to a dictatorship of your choice and report back to us in 10 years with your REAL LIFE experience on them

People who live under dictatorship FLEE to this country to escape them.  You should talk to some of those people and how they think the US is a dictatorship. 

Please continue attributing things to me that I haven’t said.  That’s really in line with the behavior that is asked of us in this forum.

To make it super clear yet again:

1) I’m not saying we live in a dictatorship

2) I have close personal friends from Zimbabwe, Venezuela and Turkey who have shared their own personal and family stories of what the path to dictatorship looks like.

3) We are witnessing actions today in the US that are consistent with erosion of democracy that we’ve witnessed in other countries

4) Thankfully, we are still a long long way from a dictatorship

“The price of liberty is eternal vigilance”

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1 minute ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Please continue attributing things to me that I haven’t said.  That’s really in line with the behavior that is asked of us in this forum.

To make it super clear yet again:

1) I’m not saying we live in a dictatorship

2) I have close personal friends from Zimbabwe, Venezuela and Turkey who have shared their own personal and family stories of what the path to dictatorship looks like.

3) We are witnessing actions today in the US that are consistent with erosion of democracy that we’ve witnessed in other countries

4) Thankfully, we are still a long long way from a dictatorship

“The price of liberty is eternal vigilance”

I am quite sure the same things that bother you are exactly what bother me. We’re on the same page as far as that goes. 
Nonetheless I reject the idea that a democratic  nation can slowly evolve into a dictatorship. Historically it just doesn’t happen. I obviously don’t know what your friends have lived through, but I suspect they have witnessed the slow consequences of a dictatorship, which is a very different proposition: for someone living in a dictatorship everything may seem the same for quite some time and then they start to notice changes- for instance in Zimbabwe Mugabe waited a long time after seizing power before he began to persecute white landowners. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I am quite sure the same things that bother you are exactly what bother me. We’re on the same page as far as that goes. 
Nonetheless I reject the idea that a democratic  nation can slowly evolve into a dictatorship. Historically it just doesn’t happen. I obviously don’t know what your friends have lived through, but I suspect they have witnessed the slow consequences of a dictatorship, which is a very different proposition: for someone living in a dictatorship everything may seem the same for quite some time and then they start to notice changes- for instance in Zimbabwe Mugabe waited a long time after seizing power before he began to persecute white landowners. 

Fair enough tim.   I see it as they witnessed the slow creation & emergence of a dictatorship; you see it as the slow consequences of an already existing dictatorship.   It's a fine line, but I appreciate the difference that you see & why you see it.   I'll post more later today after work.

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1 hour ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Please continue attributing things to me that I haven’t said.  That’s really in line with the behavior that is asked of us in this forum.

To make it super clear yet again:

1) I’m not saying we live in a dictatorship

2) I have close personal friends from Zimbabwe, Venezuela and Turkey who have shared their own personal and family stories of what the path to dictatorship looks like.

3) We are witnessing actions today in the US that are consistent with erosion of democracy that we’ve witnessed in other countries

4) Thankfully, we are still a long long way from a dictatorship

“The price of liberty is eternal vigilance”

:goodposting:

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3 hours ago, Alex P Keaton said:

How familiar are you with the path that Venezuela took?  Or Zimbabwe?   Or Russia?  Did they all immediately become “dictatorships” overnight?

I think even a cursory look on Wikipedia shows that Zimbabwe took most of the 80s and 90s.  That might be "overnight" in the geological sense.....but I don't think that qualifies as "overnight" on a human history level.  

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

Nonetheless I reject the idea that a democratic  nation can slowly evolve into a dictatorship. Historically it just doesn’t happen. 

Would you agree that if, in the 2024 election the house/Senate are controlled by a single party, and they point to 2020 as a precedent of valid conduct to discard votes of citizens, that is an evolution? 

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1 hour ago, BigJim® said:

Would you agree that if, in the 2024 election the house/Senate are controlled by a single party, and they point to 2020 as a precedent of valid conduct to discard votes of citizens, that is an evolution? 

Sure. But I those are some pretty big ifs. 
I suspect that one reason Cruz and Hawley are behaving the way they are right now is because they know that nothing will happen. It’s a safe vote, designed to appease the base. In 2005, Barack Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling. If the debt ceiling hadn’t been raised there would have been a national calamity. But he knew it would pass. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Sure. But I those are some pretty big ifs. 
I suspect that one reason Cruz and Hawley are behaving the way they are right now is because they know that nothing will happen. It’s a safe vote, designed to appease the base. In 2005, Barack Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling. If the debt ceiling hadn’t been raised there would have been a national calamity. But he knew it would pass. 

Ok, I find that naive when parties tend to use every iota of power they can (see impeachment, Garland/Barrett). I really don't think they'd give it a second thought when they have 50% public support. I hope you are right. 

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