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Are we already living in a dictatorship?


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8 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

If I say it's Sunday and someone says it's not Sunday, we can have a discussion. If that person says there's no such thing as Sunday, it doesn't exist, then there's really no point. This is beyond gaslighting. It's been all over the news - even legacy media has covered it.

You’re incorrect. The protests were all over the news. The rioting was all over the news. But it’s only right wing media which, without any real evidence, has attempted to tie the rioting to the Black Lives Matter movement, to over emphasize the role of Antifa, and to tie Black Lives Matter to Antifa. None of that is all over the news because it’s completely fabricated. 

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He hasn't gone full dictator yet. He's dictator-curious.

If the senate is controlled by the same party as the executive, and if the majority party of the senate is not willing to use checks and balances, there effectively are no checks and balances.  A

No. /thread

45 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’re incorrect. The protests were all over the news. The rioting was all over the news. But it’s only right wing media which, without any real evidence, has attempted to tie the rioting to the Black Lives Matter movement, to over emphasize the role of Antifa, and to tie Black Lives Matter to Antifa. None of that is all over the news because it’s completely fabricated. 

Sorry, Tim, but what's been completely fabricated here is your story about how BLM/Antifa are not connected at all and that they did ZERO rioting.

No one believes you because the evidence is out there.  In fact, in the now famous video, there is literally a reporter standing in front of a burning neighborhood - AT NIGHT - and insisting that it's a "mostly peaceful protest".  

Deny it all you want, but that puts you on the same level as flat earthers and anti-vaxxers.  :shrug:

Edited by BladeRunner
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11 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Sorry, Tim, but what's been completely fabricated here is your story about how BLM/Antifa are not connected at all and that they did ZERO rioting.

No one believes you because the evidence is out there.  In fact, in the now famous video, there is literally a reporter standing in front of a burning neighborhood - AT NIGHT - and insisting that it's a "mostly peaceful protest".  

Deny it all you want, but that puts you on the same level as flat earthers.  :shrug:

I am always open to change my mind. Real evidence will do that. You haven’t  presented any so far. But again I invite you to do so. 
I would accept as real evidence of your claims: 

1. News reports from respectable, mainstream sources that tie the leadership of the Black Lives Matter movement to the rioting. This can be in the form of articles or videos, but not opinion pieces.  
2. Actual statements by the Black Lives Matter leadership (or by anyone authorized to speak on their behalf) that are either in favor of the rioting and looting or even appear to defend it. (Similar to the evidence I presented yesterday against Maxine Waters). 
3. News reports or statements by BLM that tie them to Antifa in any way. 
 

Any of this would change my mind. I haven’t seen it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not out there. I miss stuff all the time. Present it and I will reassess my thinking. But referring to me as a Flat Earther, without any evidence, is frankly insulting and not very compelling. 

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1 hour ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

If I say it's Sunday and someone says it's not Sunday, we can have a discussion. If that person says there's no such thing as Sunday, it doesn't exist, then there's really no point. 

You could show him a calendar.

ETA:  I kinda think you guys have a “no true Scotsman” thing happening here.

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26 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I am always open to change my mind. Real evidence will do that. You haven’t  presented any so far. But again I invite you to do so. 
I would accept as real evidence of your claims: 

1. News reports from respectable, mainstream sources that tie the leadership of the Black Lives Matter movement to the rioting. This can be in the form of articles or videos, but not opinion pieces.  
2. Actual statements by the Black Lives Matter leadership (or by anyone authorized to speak on their behalf) that are either in favor of the rioting and looting or even appear to defend it. (Similar to the evidence I presented yesterday against Maxine Waters). 
3. News reports or statements by BLM that tie them to Antifa in any way. 
 

Any of this would change my mind. I haven’t seen it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not out there. I miss stuff all the time. Present it and I will reassess my thinking. But referring to me as a Flat Earther, without any evidence, is frankly insulting and not very compelling. 

Here is a fine example from Chicago.  What is interesting when searching for this stuff is the lack of mainstream and left wing sources.  https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/chicago-looters-smash-ronald-mcdonald-house-with-sick-kids-inside/

Ariel's presser is here - https://nypost.com/2020/08/11/black-lives-matter-organizer-calls-chicago-looting-reparation/

 

Antifa needs BLM more than BLM needs them.  Antifa reminds me of the drunks who crash the college kegger.  Damage is done, and the blame falls on the organizer.  

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27 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Here is a fine example from Chicago.  What is interesting when searching for this stuff is the lack of mainstream and left wing sources.  https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/chicago-looters-smash-ronald-mcdonald-house-with-sick-kids-inside/

Ariel's presser is here - https://nypost.com/2020/08/11/black-lives-matter-organizer-calls-chicago-looting-reparation/

 

Antifa needs BLM more than BLM needs them.  Antifa reminds me of the drunks who crash the college kegger.  Damage is done, and the blame falls on the organizer.  

How does that prove the looting was done by BLM?

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3 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

How does that prove the looting was done by BLM?

I watched Chicago TV that night.  Who do you think looted?  I know not all were BLM as there was a lot of coordinated looting on the Mag Mile from outsiders.  

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5 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

How does that prove the looting was done by BLM?

I don’t think any definite link was ever established, but that certainly hasn’t stopped people from trying.

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So who is a BLM person, one who protests?  One who is for the message?  One who donates money?  We can start with that and go from there.  I'm pretty sure there were more BLM people rioting and looting in Chicago than from the Gold Coast, Boystown, or Wrigleyville.

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1 minute ago, FairWarning said:

So who is a BLM person, one who protests?  One who is for the message?  One who donates money?  We can start with that and go from there.  I'm pretty sure there were more BLM people rioting and looting in Chicago than from the Gold Coast, Boystown, or Wrigleyville.

My contention, per police interviews, is that the the ones who looted and rioted were typically young gang members and opportunistic thugs who had no connection whatsoever to BLM (or likely Antifa for that matter), did not take part in the organized protests, and came out at night after the protests were over. But if you have actual evidence to contradict this contention, please present it, 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

My contention, per police interviews, is that the the ones who looted and rioted were typically young gang members and opportunistic thugs who had no connection whatsoever to BLM (or likely Antifa for that matter), did not take part in the organized protests, and came out at night after the protests were over. But if you have actual evidence to contradict this contention, please present it, 

So what is the makeup of BLM?  I think you're moving the goalposts here.  

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What about the BLM sympathizers that came out with Molotov cocktails? That wasn't related or linked to BLM in any way?

This is stupid argument, and everybody knows it except people trying to trip over themselves trying to avoid obviousness. Waste of time.

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

My contention, per police interviews, is that the the ones who looted and rioted were typically young gang members and opportunistic thugs who had no connection whatsoever to BLM (or likely Antifa for that matter), did not take part in the organized protests, and came out at night after the protests were over. But if you have actual evidence to contradict this contention, please present it, 

And the people that rioted the Capitol were opportunistic thugs and were not called there by Trump to overthrow the government.  You got evidence otherwise?

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1 hour ago, rockaction said:

What about the BLM sympathizers that came out with Molotov cocktails? That wasn't related or linked to BLM in any way?

This is stupid argument, and everybody knows it except people trying to trip over themselves trying to avoid obviousness. Waste of time.

Huh.  I don’t know how a “BLM sympathizer” doing something illegal equates to “BLM doing something illegal.”

When anyone has tried to criticize Trump for cozying up to David Duke (or any other white supremacists), we’ve been told repeatedly that it doesn’t mean Trump can be lumped together with them.  Why is this different?

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5 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

Do we still have fences, walls, and military in DC protecting the new (not a dictatorship) administration?

The one put there to keep the insurrectionists from attempting another illegal storming of an official and proper governmental procedure? Probably.

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7 minutes ago, knowledge dropper said:

Do we still have fences, walls, and military in DC protecting the new (not a dictatorship) administration?

Maybe...are there still active threats requiring that?

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15 minutes ago, Kal El said:

The one put there to keep the insurrectionists from attempting another illegal storming of an official and proper governmental procedure? Probably.

I remember the same posters supporting this whining up a storm when Trump sent in help to different cities to protect those businesses and buildings.  Odd how people change their all of a sudden on January 20th

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3 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

I remember the same posters supporting this whining up a storm when Trump sent in help to different cities to protect those businesses and buildings.  Odd how people change their all of a sudden on January 20th

Trump also called peaceful protesters “thugs,” and used chemical irritants to drive more peaceful protesters away from a church so he could take a photo. Of course, there’s the issue of him not being able to override the wishes of governors, which he threatened to do last summer under the guise of “restoring order.”

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4 hours ago, FairWarning said:

Yes. It’s the closest thing anyone has come up with so thank you for that. If you read the actual interview and not just the headline it doesn’t quite get there. It certainly doesn’t justify somebody calling what happened last summer “BLM/Antifa riots”. But as I wrote it’s the closest you’ve got. 

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27 minutes ago, Kal El said:

Trump also called peaceful protesters “thugs,” and used chemical irritants to drive more peaceful protesters away from a church so he could take a photo. Of course, there’s the issue of him not being able to override the wishes of governors, which he threatened to do last summer under the guise of “restoring order.”

You're referencing the DC protests?  The ones in which the church was set on fire?

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14 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Yes. It’s the closest thing anyone has come up with so thank you for that. If you read the actual interview and not just the headline it doesn’t quite get there. It certainly doesn’t justify somebody calling what happened last summer “BLM/Antifa riots”. But as I wrote it’s the closest you’ve got. 

I hate that googling this only comes up with conservative sites.  It should be very newsworthy no matter the side.  Those same sites ignore many newsworthy stories that interest the left.  My hope is that WGN will take care of a lot of this when they go 24-hour news on March 1.

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17 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

You're referencing the DC protests?  The ones in which the church was set on fire?

Yup, he targeted protestors who weren’t involved with said arson, took a photo op that can be generously described as “poorly timed and executed,” and basically painted protesters with a very broad brush.

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14 minutes ago, Kal El said:

Yup, he targeted protestors who weren’t involved with said arson, took a photo op that can be generously described as “poorly timed and executed,” and basically painted protesters with a very broad brush.

I'll agree with the photo op part, don't agree with giving a pass to all the protestors.  Some were peaceful, but many had to give at least some kind of tacit acceptance to things like the arson taking place as nobody seemed to be too worried about stopping it.  When you're in a large group and something like that takes place, either you feel comfortable to step up and say something or act to stop it or you don't.  And if you don't, it's probably then a pretty bad group of folks you're out there with and you need to leave.  It's a one or the other thing.  At some point we all have a responsibility to put a stop to these kinds of things, not just when it's "the other side" of today's hyper left/right spectrum.

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54 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

I hate that googling this only comes up with conservative sites.  It should be very newsworthy no matter the side.  Those same sites ignore many newsworthy stories that interest the left.  My hope is that WGN will take care of a lot of this when they go 24-hour news on March 1.

Do we take that as only conservative sites are covering this news or that conservative sites are the ones making these connections because it generates clicks from their readers? 

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Just now, KarmaPolice said:

Do we take that as only conservative sites are covering this news or that conservative sites are the ones making these connections because it generates clicks from their readers? 

far more the latter in this instance.

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32 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

I'll agree with the photo op part, don't agree with giving a pass to all the protestors.  Some were peaceful, but many had to give at least some kind of tacit acceptance to things like the arson taking place as nobody seemed to be too worried about stopping it.  When you're in a large group and something like that takes place, either you feel comfortable to step up and say something or act to stop it or you don't.  And if you don't, it's probably then a pretty bad group of folks you're out there with and you need to leave.  It's a one or the other thing.  At some point we all have a responsibility to put a stop to these kinds of things, not just when it's "the other side" of today's hyper left/right spectrum.

I don’t believe very many went to the protests with a plan to stop troublemakers, and certainly not to stop looters. They’re rightfully protesting the deaths of people of color at the hands of police, and the onus isn’t on them to stop said hooligans, which some of them did anyway, to their credit. Blaming them for not stopping looters is a strange argument to make, but every lawbreaker at a protest should be prosecuted, whether it’s looting a CVS or storming the Capitol. The punishment for the latter is likely stiffer.

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15 minutes ago, Kal El said:

I don’t believe very many went to the protests with a plan to stop troublemakers, and certainly not to stop looters. They’re rightfully protesting the deaths of people of color at the hands of police, and the onus isn’t on them to stop said hooligans, which some of them did anyway, to their credit. Blaming them for not stopping looters is a strange argument to make, but every lawbreaker at a protest should be prosecuted, whether it’s looting a CVS or storming the Capitol. The punishment for the latter is likely stiffer.

But in so many of these cases it didn't even occur at the same time. The organized protest would begin and finish before dusk. Then, hours later, there would be burning and looting. The protestors had gone home at that point. That's why it's so incorrect to call these incidents "BLM riots". Its almost completely a false narrative. 

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11 minutes ago, timschochet said:

But in so many of these cases it didn't even occur at the same time. The organized protest would begin and finish before dusk. Then, hours later, there would be burning and looting. The protestors had gone home at that point. That's why it's so incorrect to call these incidents "BLM riots". Its almost completely a false narrative. 

This is accurate, but I have noticed that because of the uncomfortable nature of the discussion(specifically, that entire groups of people are being treated unfairly by members of law enforcement, to the point of experiencing excessive force, violence, and outright murder), there are portions of the population that simply choose to ignore the complaints, or worse, blame the victims when they speak out for change. I don’t understand why people would not want to see equal treatment for all, but the (hopefully very small fringe) that seeks to lump peaceful protesters in with trouble causers is not helping matters. That particular mode of thinking is obsolete and should be treated as such.

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8 hours ago, timschochet said:

But in so many of these cases it didn't even occur at the same time. The organized protest would begin and finish before dusk. Then, hours later, there would be burning and looting. The protestors had gone home at that point. That's why it's so incorrect to call these incidents "BLM riots". Its almost completely a false narrative. 

What would you like to call the riots on the south side of Chicago then?  I'm sure there were some outsiders who took the opportunity to loot and destroy.  

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14 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

And the people that rioted the Capitol were opportunistic thugs and were not called there by Trump to overthrow the government.  You got evidence otherwise?

If BLM had collected millions and used it to organize a large protest at the Capitol where BLM leaders spoke and said things like “you have to fight for your country” multiple times, and then there was rioting/looting, I think you’d have the evidence @timschochet is looking for. 

The protest was paid for with money collected by trumps team while they claimed election fraud. His people organized it, his admin tied the hands of the national guard for optics, his kids and lawyer spoke at it (and also reiterated that action was needed, fight for your country), his people organized and planned the event for that day while congress was preparing to certify Biden’s win, he told a crowd to March to the Capitol, and things got out of hand. This is about as innocent as I can make it sound. 
 

The other theory is that the trump team collected money on fabricated claims of fraud, organized the event, put restrictions on the national guard, coordinated with republicans in the house and senate to delay certification, coordinated the timing of militia groups who broke through police lines to coincide with the ending of trumps speech where he urged supporters to March to the Capitol, and things were meant to get out of hand. 

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4 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

If BLM had collected millions and used it to organize a large protest at the Capitol where BLM leaders spoke and said things like “you have to fight for your country” multiple times, and then there was rioting/looting, I think you’d have the evidence @timschochet is looking for. 

The protest was paid for with money collected by trumps team while they claimed election fraud. His people organized it, his admin tied the hands of the national guard for optics, his kids and lawyer spoke at it (and also reiterated that action was needed, fight for your country), his people organized and planned the event for that day while congress was preparing to certify Biden’s win, he told a crowd to March to the Capitol, and things got out of hand. This is about as innocent as I can make it sound. 
 

The other theory is that the trump team collected money on fabricated claims of fraud, organized the event, put restrictions on the national guard, coordinated with republicans in the house and senate to delay certification, coordinated the timing of militia groups who broke through police lines to coincide with the ending of trumps speech where he urged supporters to March to the Capitol, and things were meant to get out of hand. 

This is pretty inflammatory :tinfoilhat:   Hopefully you have some proof.  

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6 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

If BLM had collected millions and used it to organize a large protest at the Capitol where BLM leaders spoke and said things like “you have to fight for your country” multiple times, and then there was rioting/looting, I think you’d have the evidence @timschochet is looking for. 

The protest was paid for with money collected by trumps team while they claimed election fraud. His people organized it, his admin tied the hands of the national guard for optics, his kids and lawyer spoke at it (and also reiterated that action was needed, fight for your country), his people organized and planned the event for that day while congress was preparing to certify Biden’s win, he told a crowd to March to the Capitol, and things got out of hand. This is about as innocent as I can make it sound. 
 

The other theory is that the trump team collected money on fabricated claims of fraud, organized the event, put restrictions on the national guard, coordinated with republicans in the house and senate to delay certification, coordinated the timing of militia groups who broke through police lines to coincide with the ending of trumps speech where he urged supporters to March to the Capitol, and things were meant to get out of hand. 

The left's version of Qanon.

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21 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

How so...can you refute any of what he stated?

Can he PROVE anything he wrote.  
 

The DNC and/or left wing interest groups funded BLM and Antifa riots during the summer to undermine the November election.  I guess you have to prove me wrong using your logic?

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6 minutes ago, tonydead said:

I don't waste my time running around trying to refute conspiracy theories.  

You should. You’ve expressed yourself here as a conservative. We need more conservatives attacking conspiracy theories right now. 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You should. You’ve expressed yourself here as a conservative. We need more conservatives attacking conspiracy theories right now. 

Conservatives aren't responsible for attacking liberal conspiracies

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You should. You’ve expressed yourself here as a conservative. We need more conservatives attacking conspiracy theories right now. 

Why?  Ignoring the logic fault - it's not my job to prove you don't have a dragon in your garage if you made that claim.  Why wouldn't we let the left run around chasing it's tail on every conspiracy theory out there?  Let them spend as much time as they want in Joe's two years in office in an attempt to make themselves feel better about someone who's no longer in office.  Other than vaccine distribution, I'm fine letting all the other priorities wait.

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1 hour ago, tonydead said:

I don't waste my time running around trying to refute conspiracy theories.  

Ok...then lets take the comment calling it like Qanon with a grain of salt.

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2 hours ago, knowledge dropper said:

Can he PROVE anything he wrote.  
 

The DNC and/or left wing interest groups funded BLM and Antifa riots during the summer to undermine the November election.  I guess you have to prove me wrong using your logic?

Probably yes...as much of of is based on statements actually made.    Youball are free to ask him to back up his claims.

 

And it has nothing to do with BLM or Antifa.  So no need for some whataboutism.

But yes...if I just say you are wrong, its up to me to say why and what is wrong. That is what has been asked of us when I/we were told not to just proclaim things as falsehoods.

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7 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

No, you find it more fun to promote conspiracy theories

Link?

2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Ok...then lets take the comment calling it like Qanon with a grain of salt.

You can take it however you'd like.  I think it's equivalent to the left's version of Qanon.

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1 minute ago, sho nuff said:

Probably yes...as much of of is based on statements actually made.    Youball are free to ask him to back up his claims.

 

And it has nothing to do with BLM or Antifa.  So no meed for some whataboutism.

But yes...if I just say you are wrong, its up to me to say why and what is wrong. That is what has been asked of us when I/we were told not to just proclaim things as falsehoods.

Wrong.  If you claim to have a pink dragon in your garage it is not up to me to prove you wrong.  I can have the opinion that you really don't without much effort at all.  It's up to your to prove your claim, not the other way around.

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18 hours ago, timschochet said:

But in so many of these cases it didn't even occur at the same time. The organized protest would begin and finish before dusk. Then, hours later, there would be burning and looting. The protestors had gone home at that point. That's why it's so incorrect to call these incidents "BLM riots". Its almost completely a false narrative. 

There's false narratives on both sides......just like most of the BLM folks are good, so are most of the protesters on the right.  A small percentage are anarchists/racists/whatever-ists......the people causing the chaos are sick in the head because they have been brainwashed by far left, or far right propaganda.

This is what we have to get past.....that somehow every BLM supporter is a marxist, and anyone who supported Trump is a white supremacist.....it's nonsense.  

I will say that it's very worrisome to me how the white supremacist label is flying around.  This, imo, is causing waaaay more damage than any Trump tweet ever did.  Yet now the left is emboldened to double down.....its straight up mob mentality at this point.

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1 hour ago, tonydead said:

Wrong.  If you claim to have a pink dragon in your garage it is not up to me to prove you wrong.  I can have the opinion that you really don't without much effort at all.  It's up to your to prove your claim, not the other way around.

Except that would be a ridiculous claim...when what was stated about the situation with Trump was based on his actual words.  Just saying wrong or that isnos Qanon conspiracy stuff is a weak retort.

And I didn't make the original claim.  I agree...if you had instead asked him to back up his claim...its on him to do so.
 

However, that isn’t what happened here.  You made a claim about his post, that it was Qanon conspiracy and have now been asked to back that up.  That is now up to you.

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