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Are we already living in a dictatorship? (2 Viewers)

timschochet said:
I am always open to change my mind. Real evidence will do that. You haven’t  presented any so far. But again I invite you to do so. 
I would accept as real evidence of your claims: 

1. News reports from respectable, mainstream sources that tie the leadership of the Black Lives Matter movement to the rioting. This can be in the form of articles or videos, but not opinion pieces.  
2. Actual statements by the Black Lives Matter leadership (or by anyone authorized to speak on their behalf) that are either in favor of the rioting and looting or even appear to defend it. (Similar to the evidence I presented yesterday against Maxine Waters). 
3. News reports or statements by BLM that tie them to Antifa in any way. 
 

Any of this would change my mind. I haven’t seen it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not out there. I miss stuff all the time. Present it and I will reassess my thinking. But referring to me as a Flat Earther, without any evidence, is frankly insulting and not very compelling. 
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Here is a fine example from Chicago.  What is interesting when searching for this stuff is the lack of mainstream and left wing sources.  https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/chicago-looters-smash-ronald-mcdonald-house-with-sick-kids-inside/

Ariel's presser is here - https://nypost.com/2020/08/11/black-lives-matter-organizer-calls-chicago-looting-reparation/

Antifa needs BLM more than BLM needs them.  Antifa reminds me of the drunks who crash the college kegger.  Damage is done, and the blame falls on the organizer.  

 
FairWarning said:
Here is a fine example from Chicago.  What is interesting when searching for this stuff is the lack of mainstream and left wing sources.  https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/chicago-looters-smash-ronald-mcdonald-house-with-sick-kids-inside/

Ariel's presser is here - https://nypost.com/2020/08/11/black-lives-matter-organizer-calls-chicago-looting-reparation/

Antifa needs BLM more than BLM needs them.  Antifa reminds me of the drunks who crash the college kegger.  Damage is done, and the blame falls on the organizer.  
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How does that prove the looting was done by BLM?

 
So who is a BLM person, one who protests?  One who is for the message?  One who donates money?  We can start with that and go from there.  I'm pretty sure there were more BLM people rioting and looting in Chicago than from the Gold Coast, Boystown, or Wrigleyville.

 
FairWarning said:
So who is a BLM person, one who protests?  One who is for the message?  One who donates money?  We can start with that and go from there.  I'm pretty sure there were more BLM people rioting and looting in Chicago than from the Gold Coast, Boystown, or Wrigleyville.
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My contention, per police interviews, is that the the ones who looted and rioted were typically young gang members and opportunistic thugs who had no connection whatsoever to BLM (or likely Antifa for that matter), did not take part in the organized protests, and came out at night after the protests were over. But if you have actual evidence to contradict this contention, please present it, 

 
timschochet said:
My contention, per police interviews, is that the the ones who looted and rioted were typically young gang members and opportunistic thugs who had no connection whatsoever to BLM (or likely Antifa for that matter), did not take part in the organized protests, and came out at night after the protests were over. But if you have actual evidence to contradict this contention, please present it, 
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So what is the makeup of BLM?  I think you're moving the goalposts here.  

 
timschochet said:
My contention, per police interviews, is that the the ones who looted and rioted were typically young gang members and opportunistic thugs who had no connection whatsoever to BLM (or likely Antifa for that matter), did not take part in the organized protests, and came out at night after the protests were over. But if you have actual evidence to contradict this contention, please present it, 
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And the people that rioted the Capitol were opportunistic thugs and were not called there by Trump to overthrow the government.  You got evidence otherwise?

 
rockaction said:
What about the BLM sympathizers that came out with Molotov cocktails? That wasn't related or linked to BLM in any way?

This is stupid argument, and everybody knows it except people trying to trip over themselves trying to avoid obviousness. Waste of time.
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Huh.  I don’t know how a “BLM sympathizer” doing something illegal equates to “BLM doing something illegal.”

When anyone has tried to criticize Trump for cozying up to David Duke (or any other white supremacists), we’ve been told repeatedly that it doesn’t mean Trump can be lumped together with them.  Why is this different?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
I remember the same posters supporting this whining up a storm when Trump sent in help to different cities to protect those businesses and buildings.  Odd how people change their all of a sudden on January 20th
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Trump also called peaceful protesters “thugs,” and used chemical irritants to drive more peaceful protesters away from a church so he could take a photo. Of course, there’s the issue of him not being able to override the wishes of governors, which he threatened to do last summer under the guise of “restoring order.”

 
Kal El said:
Trump also called peaceful protesters “thugs,” and used chemical irritants to drive more peaceful protesters away from a church so he could take a photo. Of course, there’s the issue of him not being able to override the wishes of governors, which he threatened to do last summer under the guise of “restoring order.”
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You're referencing the DC protests?  The ones in which the church was set on fire?

 
timschochet said:
Yes. It’s the closest thing anyone has come up with so thank you for that. If you read the actual interview and not just the headline it doesn’t quite get there. It certainly doesn’t justify somebody calling what happened last summer “BLM/Antifa riots”. But as I wrote it’s the closest you’ve got. 
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I hate that googling this only comes up with conservative sites.  It should be very newsworthy no matter the side.  Those same sites ignore many newsworthy stories that interest the left.  My hope is that WGN will take care of a lot of this when they go 24-hour news on March 1.

 
Shula-holic said:
You're referencing the DC protests?  The ones in which the church was set on fire?
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Yup, he targeted protestors who weren’t involved with said arson, took a photo op that can be generously described as “poorly timed and executed,” and basically painted protesters with a very broad brush.

 
Kal El said:
Yup, he targeted protestors who weren’t involved with said arson, took a photo op that can be generously described as “poorly timed and executed,” and basically painted protesters with a very broad brush.
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I'll agree with the photo op part, don't agree with giving a pass to all the protestors.  Some were peaceful, but many had to give at least some kind of tacit acceptance to things like the arson taking place as nobody seemed to be too worried about stopping it.  When you're in a large group and something like that takes place, either you feel comfortable to step up and say something or act to stop it or you don't.  And if you don't, it's probably then a pretty bad group of folks you're out there with and you need to leave.  It's a one or the other thing.  At some point we all have a responsibility to put a stop to these kinds of things, not just when it's "the other side" of today's hyper left/right spectrum.

 
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FairWarning said:
I hate that googling this only comes up with conservative sites.  It should be very newsworthy no matter the side.  Those same sites ignore many newsworthy stories that interest the left.  My hope is that WGN will take care of a lot of this when they go 24-hour news on March 1.
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Do we take that as only conservative sites are covering this news or that conservative sites are the ones making these connections because it generates clicks from their readers? 

 
Shula-holic said:
I'll agree with the photo op part, don't agree with giving a pass to all the protestors.  Some were peaceful, but many had to give at least some kind of tacit acceptance to things like the arson taking place as nobody seemed to be too worried about stopping it.  When you're in a large group and something like that takes place, either you feel comfortable to step up and say something or act to stop it or you don't.  And if you don't, it's probably then a pretty bad group of folks you're out there with and you need to leave.  It's a one or the other thing.  At some point we all have a responsibility to put a stop to these kinds of things, not just when it's "the other side" of today's hyper left/right spectrum.
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I don’t believe very many went to the protests with a plan to stop troublemakers, and certainly not to stop looters. They’re rightfully protesting the deaths of people of color at the hands of police, and the onus isn’t on them to stop said hooligans, which some of them did anyway, to their credit. Blaming them for not stopping looters is a strange argument to make, but every lawbreaker at a protest should be prosecuted, whether it’s looting a CVS or storming the Capitol. The punishment for the latter is likely stiffer.

 
Kal El said:
I don’t believe very many went to the protests with a plan to stop troublemakers, and certainly not to stop looters. They’re rightfully protesting the deaths of people of color at the hands of police, and the onus isn’t on them to stop said hooligans, which some of them did anyway, to their credit. Blaming them for not stopping looters is a strange argument to make, but every lawbreaker at a protest should be prosecuted, whether it’s looting a CVS or storming the Capitol. The punishment for the latter is likely stiffer.
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But in so many of these cases it didn't even occur at the same time. The organized protest would begin and finish before dusk. Then, hours later, there would be burning and looting. The protestors had gone home at that point. That's why it's so incorrect to call these incidents "BLM riots". Its almost completely a false narrative. 

 
timschochet said:
But in so many of these cases it didn't even occur at the same time. The organized protest would begin and finish before dusk. Then, hours later, there would be burning and looting. The protestors had gone home at that point. That's why it's so incorrect to call these incidents "BLM riots". Its almost completely a false narrative. 
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This is accurate, but I have noticed that because of the uncomfortable nature of the discussion(specifically, that entire groups of people are being treated unfairly by members of law enforcement, to the point of experiencing excessive force, violence, and outright murder), there are portions of the population that simply choose to ignore the complaints, or worse, blame the victims when they speak out for change. I don’t understand why people would not want to see equal treatment for all, but the (hopefully very small fringe) that seeks to lump peaceful protesters in with trouble causers is not helping matters. That particular mode of thinking is obsolete and should be treated as such.

 
timschochet said:
But in so many of these cases it didn't even occur at the same time. The organized protest would begin and finish before dusk. Then, hours later, there would be burning and looting. The protestors had gone home at that point. That's why it's so incorrect to call these incidents "BLM riots". Its almost completely a false narrative. 
Click to expand...
What would you like to call the riots on the south side of Chicago then?  I'm sure there were some outsiders who took the opportunity to loot and destroy.  

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
And the people that rioted the Capitol were opportunistic thugs and were not called there by Trump to overthrow the government.  You got evidence otherwise?
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If BLM had collected millions and used it to organize a large protest at the Capitol where BLM leaders spoke and said things like “you have to fight for your country” multiple times, and then there was rioting/looting, I think you’d have the evidence @timschochet is looking for. 

The protest was paid for with money collected by trumps team while they claimed election fraud. His people organized it, his admin tied the hands of the national guard for optics, his kids and lawyer spoke at it (and also reiterated that action was needed, fight for your country), his people organized and planned the event for that day while congress was preparing to certify Biden’s win, he told a crowd to March to the Capitol, and things got out of hand. This is about as innocent as I can make it sound. 
 

The other theory is that the trump team collected money on fabricated claims of fraud, organized the event, put restrictions on the national guard, coordinated with republicans in the house and senate to delay certification, coordinated the timing of militia groups who broke through police lines to coincide with the ending of trumps speech where he urged supporters to March to the Capitol, and things were meant to get out of hand. 

 
Snorkelson said:
If BLM had collected millions and used it to organize a large protest at the Capitol where BLM leaders spoke and said things like “you have to fight for your country” multiple times, and then there was rioting/looting, I think you’d have the evidence @timschochet is looking for. 

The protest was paid for with money collected by trumps team while they claimed election fraud. His people organized it, his admin tied the hands of the national guard for optics, his kids and lawyer spoke at it (and also reiterated that action was needed, fight for your country), his people organized and planned the event for that day while congress was preparing to certify Biden’s win, he told a crowd to March to the Capitol, and things got out of hand. This is about as innocent as I can make it sound. 
 

The other theory is that the trump team collected money on fabricated claims of fraud, organized the event, put restrictions on the national guard, coordinated with republicans in the house and senate to delay certification, coordinated the timing of militia groups who broke through police lines to coincide with the ending of trumps speech where he urged supporters to March to the Capitol, and things were meant to get out of hand. 
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This is pretty inflammatory  :tinfoilhat:   Hopefully you have some proof.  

 
Snorkelson said:
If BLM had collected millions and used it to organize a large protest at the Capitol where BLM leaders spoke and said things like “you have to fight for your country” multiple times, and then there was rioting/looting, I think you’d have the evidence @timschochet is looking for. 

The protest was paid for with money collected by trumps team while they claimed election fraud. His people organized it, his admin tied the hands of the national guard for optics, his kids and lawyer spoke at it (and also reiterated that action was needed, fight for your country), his people organized and planned the event for that day while congress was preparing to certify Biden’s win, he told a crowd to March to the Capitol, and things got out of hand. This is about as innocent as I can make it sound. 
 

The other theory is that the trump team collected money on fabricated claims of fraud, organized the event, put restrictions on the national guard, coordinated with republicans in the house and senate to delay certification, coordinated the timing of militia groups who broke through police lines to coincide with the ending of trumps speech where he urged supporters to March to the Capitol, and things were meant to get out of hand. 
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The left's version of Qanon.

 
timschochet said:
You should. You’ve expressed yourself here as a conservative. We need more conservatives attacking conspiracy theories right now. 
Click to expand...
Why?  Ignoring the logic fault - it's not my job to prove you don't have a dragon in your garage if you made that claim.  Why wouldn't we let the left run around chasing it's tail on every conspiracy theory out there?  Let them spend as much time as they want in Joe's two years in office in an attempt to make themselves feel better about someone who's no longer in office.  Other than vaccine distribution, I'm fine letting all the other priorities wait.

 
knowledge dropper said:
Can he PROVE anything he wrote.  
 

The DNC and/or left wing interest groups funded BLM and Antifa riots during the summer to undermine the November election.  I guess you have to prove me wrong using your logic?
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Probably yes...as much of of is based on statements actually made.    Youball are free to ask him to back up his claims.

And it has nothing to do with BLM or Antifa.  So no need for some whataboutism.

But yes...if I just say you are wrong, its up to me to say why and what is wrong. That is what has been asked of us when I/we were told not to just proclaim things as falsehoods.

 
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sho nuff said:
Probably yes...as much of of is based on statements actually made.    Youball are free to ask him to back up his claims.

And it has nothing to do with BLM or Antifa.  So no meed for some whataboutism.

But yes...if I just say you are wrong, its up to me to say why and what is wrong. That is what has been asked of us when I/we were told not to just proclaim things as falsehoods.
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Wrong.  If you claim to have a pink dragon in your garage it is not up to me to prove you wrong.  I can have the opinion that you really don't without much effort at all.  It's up to your to prove your claim, not the other way around.

 
timschochet said:
But in so many of these cases it didn't even occur at the same time. The organized protest would begin and finish before dusk. Then, hours later, there would be burning and looting. The protestors had gone home at that point. That's why it's so incorrect to call these incidents "BLM riots". Its almost completely a false narrative. 
Click to expand...
There's false narratives on both sides......just like most of the BLM folks are good, so are most of the protesters on the right.  A small percentage are anarchists/racists/whatever-ists......the people causing the chaos are sick in the head because they have been brainwashed by far left, or far right propaganda.

This is what we have to get past.....that somehow every BLM supporter is a marxist, and anyone who supported Trump is a white supremacist.....it's nonsense.  

I will say that it's very worrisome to me how the white supremacist label is flying around.  This, imo, is causing waaaay more damage than any Trump tweet ever did.  Yet now the left is emboldened to double down.....its straight up mob mentality at this point.

 
tonydead said:
Wrong.  If you claim to have a pink dragon in your garage it is not up to me to prove you wrong.  I can have the opinion that you really don't without much effort at all.  It's up to your to prove your claim, not the other way around.
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Except that would be a ridiculous claim...when what was stated about the situation with Trump was based on his actual words.  Just saying wrong or that isnos Qanon conspiracy stuff is a weak retort.

And I didn't make the original claim.  I agree...if you had instead asked him to back up his claim...its on him to do so.
 

However, that isn’t what happened here.  You made a claim about his post, that it was Qanon conspiracy and have now been asked to back that up.  That is now up to you.

 
sho nuff said:
Why?  I said I doubt it...and given the source’s history...I am pretty confident.  However...had I stated as fact it is just false...then asking me to prove it would be prudent.  Some type of gotcha here seems misplaced.
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So it’s probably best for you not to respond if you are just grasping at air.  

 
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