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Government Response To The Coronavirus (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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timschochet
Footballguy
I think that in this situation we can’t leave it to individuals to decide. Or local or stage authorities. It’s a national crisis.
timschochet
Footballguy
No @Ramblin Wreck is not a strident Trump defender and he has not attempted to justify President Trump’s false statements.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Exactly.
In a national crisis who leaves it up to dumb, drunk 21 year olds to drive the nation's quarantine policy? It's absurd.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
No matter how well the local municipalities are handling this, the lack of a state wide order is a costly failure to grasp what is needed. Just like the lack of a national order is a costly failure by Trump and company even if some states are being heroically led through this by their state leaders.
This sure sounds like you are telling RW his opinion is wrong
"It should have been made clear to you that your decision was illegal. It wasn’t."
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
It's been very obvious that we can't trust the general public to be responsible so we need leaders in place to help enforce certain things.
timschochet
Footballguy
Well I think he is wrong. Not embarrassing though. I think people who defended Trump’s statements prior to yesterday should be embarrassed. That’s different.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Gonna put you down as a yes on my question.
I don't disagree with what you're saying just don't think you're going far enough with your blame. People are generally selfish and stupid in this country which is why us trying to pull a China won't work the same, IMO. But if I were king for the day I would shut the entire country down indefinitely three weeks ago.
sho nuff
Footballguy
It also would have been better without the dishonesty and downplaying of everything out of the top levels of government until very recently.
The Commish
Footballguy
Perhaps...though, if true, it would tough to explain "failure to grasp" against the backdrop of people actually doing the needful. I have a small pocket I live in where there are people still out and about, but we appear to be the exception. All the large population areas here in Central and Northern Florida (can't speak to South Florida) are doing what they are asked to do.
The Commish
Footballguy
We still have areas where people are ignoring the orders. Those people would be ignoring the orders regardless of who gave them. They are "that" kind of person. Those people are everywhere though....that's not unique to Florida.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I agree. I admit that I was one of the people who thought this was all blown out of proportion and people were overreacting. I had no concerns about it other than older people getting sick. I was very wrong. The more I learn about it the more I realize this is very serious and I wish others would educate themselves as well. Way too many stubborn people out there spreading this virus around.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
People expect leadership to give them directives when we are talking about something so wildly out of the ordinary. When asking people to do something they have never done before, yes it does take clear and firm messaging from the top. Also, there were still many in the media and politics who were saying it was not a big deal.
The Commish
Footballguy
Or to put another way, this isn't an "either/or" scenario. It's all of the above. While it's true that there are SOME who would change their attitude simply because Trump told them to, there are STILL large groups who would ignore the messaging regardless of who said it justifying it with something along the lines of "gubment ain't gonna tell me what I can do!!!!!" Where I deviate with Tim is that just because Trump makes a declaration, doesn't mean everyone's going to fall in line. And THAT gets to your point of people being selfish and stupid.
If I was in charge, I would be targeting to May 1. I would be working with industries such as the airlines on establishing cleaning standards and operating guidelines. I would be setting goals for increase testing and tracking to allow service providers such as beauticians and restaurant workers to go back to work. As dangerous as this virus is, it is mostly transmitted via touching of the face. We are smart enough to put in practices where we virtually eliminate transmission. I would be funding the production of ventilators and making sure hospital has plans in place for makeshift beds. Unfortunately we are not doing appropriate planning to get back to work.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
What if you saw during the last few weeks your favorite President ever tell everyone it is under control and you turned on Fox to see Trish tell everyone it was another hoax to try to hurt Trump? There was a lot of misinformation out there and the President was responsible for much of it.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Not looking good.
The people at Imperial College estimate between 7 million and 43 million people have or have had covid19. Clue that it has been around longer than we think, and we didn't disvover it right away. Very possible. If this is true, the wide ranging estimates modelers have been using for the rate of transmission are a lot higher than the real number. When we actually get random samples for an accurate rate of transmission, it's under the conditions of massive lockdown so experts will just spin it to indicate how well the lockdown is working. Who will question whether these measures are truly needed when lives are at stake?
Our best hope to get back to normal is the results of the antibody tests which are being done in various parts of the world. Everybody should be doing them. But even if/when we get encouraging results, it still could be a while. When the media should have been emphasizing how little we actually know about this virus, they were causing panic with sensationalist reporting. The amount of fear instilled in populations will cause a major delay in lifting restrictions .
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
I work with a math teacher who is a big Trump supporter. When the high school kids were hearing about Corona in early-mid March and would ask about it, she said things like "it's just the flu" and "it's nothing to worry about, we won't close school because someone has a cough" and "the media is blowing it out of proportion, you cant trust them". It's not that hard for me to see how messaging from the President, Governors, Congress and major media outlets has a huge trickle down effect on the behavior of people.
Skoo
Footballguy
Ummm...a lot of the discussion in this thread today is about all the people ignoring social distancing guidelines.
We have the most cases in the world.
Clearly we as a country weren't nearly panicked enough.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
And sure, we could say people should have looked at CNN or NBC or New York Times or Washington Post to see what was really going on with the virus but there has been a long slow conditioning to distrust those sources and it has been spearheaded by the President. Many people not only don't trust those sources but will actually believe the opposite of what they report.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Which is why this can't be left to "personal responsibility". Why this can't be pushed down the chain. Why it needs to be absolute from the top. Sure there will still be those that are "that" kind of person, but there won't be x times as many that take their cues from these people because those at the top aren't stepping up.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
On the individual level, perhaps. Regarding public policy though, that's a different story.
moleculo
Footballguy
this is reasonable and I agree. May 1 would be a good aspirational date. However, the decision to open or not should be based, IMO, on the following:
- testing is reliable and ubitiquious. We cannot make data-driven decisions without data.
- number of new cases per day has a clear and consistent downwards trend. Trend to be statistically significant as agreed upon by nations top epidemiologists.
- the hospitals have capacity in terms of beds, ventilators, and PPE should a new spike appear.
- there are enough masks available such that every man, woman, and child can wear one in public.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
The media was reporting the seriousness accurately. If anyone is to blame for irresponsible behavior early on its the president and conservative media, most notably Fox News, for downplaying the severity.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Why do you have to do this? You engage in perfectly legitimate scientific or medical points, then like some kind of automatonic response launch into a fake news claim. MSM has been performing serious, yeoman’s work in reporting on this since December.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Exactly...it was dangerous rhetoric then and continued for far too long into this...til they couldn't keep saying those things anymore. Had his tone been what it was yesterday...only early on...I think this country would have been better off in dealing with this.
rcam
Footballguy
No, it is on both. When the government is sending a message that things are not mandatory or serious then the natural response is to not think the situation is serious. Effectively, the government is saying "you decide". Similarly, when a President has the power to educate, use military, control manufacturing, coordinate between states - and does none of these things and actually plays down the seriousness of the issue. Well, that blame is on him. Personal. Accountability.
Here's the thing. The average person probably doesn't comprehend the seriousness or severity of this virus until it is too late. Everything seems normal until it is not. Also, many of the spring breakers were under the impression that the virus, even if they caught it, was no big deal due to their age. Many are just ignorant or selfish. However, our President doesnt or shouldn't have that excuse. He should have entire organizations giving him info. He should have the opinion and knowledge of experts from across the globe and, I would hope, the intellectual faculties to understand what is being told to him. I honestly don't think that is the case as the guy still talks about other countries paying us tariffs and the preparations for this virus were quite literally, next to nothing.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
I also heard a Representative Lujan say we need to enact legislation for a national vote from home so President Trump can't stop the November election from happening. I can understand some random internet guy being stupid, but a House Representative suggesting the President is going to stop an election from happening is beyond stupid for someone in his position.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
This thinking that the Feds ordering a 3 week national shutdown wouldn’t have had a massive effect is crazy talk.
sho nuff
Footballguy
They were not causing panic or sensationalist reporting this...they were ahead of the government in all of this and may have actually saved lives by reporting about it while the government was down playing it.
sho nuff
Footballguy
The other dangerous part of his rhetoric going back to early on...the whole "enemy of the people" stuff...the pushing that people could only trust him.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Even if I don't talk about it much, really I understand that serious of the situation, honestly. The seriousness being derived from how little we know about covid19. From my meanderings, I have not found this to be a point of emphasis in the media, which is basically been all confirmation bias directed towards the worse case scenario. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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Amused to Death
Footballguy
You know how you can tell the media wasn't over sensationalizing this? The president and conservative media have now adopted their tone.
Skoo
Footballguy
Nope, I'm sure he got the idea from some random conspiracy theory site, he claimed he was "sure" the media wouldn't report on a cure if it was found and that the paraquin or whatever drug the FDA approved for testing has 100% success rate and there will be no hospital shortages.
But back to Trump, why would any of his backers think that the media might keep a cure secret because they want him to fail?
I think we all know the reason why. Years of being told the media is the "enemy of the people" eventually takes its toll on some.
So in the end, yeah, the guy was an idiot. But he got his ideas from somewhere.
The General
Footballguy
I don’t know if he’s that much a lunatic. He got way out in front of the cholorquine malaria drug treatment however.
I would guess people were talking about the cure stuff because people are prone to conspiracy theories. Trump’s muddled hoax comments when this was just beginning to snowball had to help influence many people.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Not going to get everyone to do it. Just the nature of some people. I think where Tim's position could be good is that if you institute a stay at home then at least law enforcement has some power to break things up.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Thanks. I have heard Trump say anything like that. There are stupid people on both sides.
The Commish
Footballguy
Agreed...but this is true (and more impactful IMO) at the local level. I think Tim may believe that if it comes from Trump everyone will snap into line. It's true some will...many won't.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Isn't this just a deflection by the individuals though? It doesn't matter what excuse they are using to ignore reality, does it? Does it matter if they are ignoring Trump vs their governor vs their local law enforcement/mayor? To me it doesn't. And personally, I think you have it backwards....it seem to me that the stronger we can tie this to the emotion of civic duty the better off we're going to be. So, along the lines of "you don't crap where you sleep" do you think the request is more impactful coming from people directly in your community..your neighbors, friends, local leaders or from federal bureaucrats unable to get out of their own way most of the time?
rcam
Footballguy
Then he is either:
1) Dumb
2) Having to bite his tongue or be ultra conservative because it conflicts with official Administration policy.
I definitely don't think Fauchi is dumb. Trump was more concerned about the market and the economy than preventing the spread of the virus. The country wasn't prepared when it should've been. There is no excuse as to why we didn't have testing or a task force. There is still no excuse as to why we aren't on a national shelter in place. There is no excuse that we don't have enough medical equipment. There is no excuse that we don't have government officials taking temps at the entrance to every grocery store.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I think some of your posts have been great, the medical articles are great food for thought, I appreciate it. - It’s probably just worth remembering reporters, editors and their fellow employees and their families have been victims and are in danger as well. I’m sure they’re doing their damndest and aren’t shading anything.
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