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Government Response To The Coronavirus


James Daulton

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11 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Shouldn't have to go back far...they only started doing it last week. :thanks: 

 

I haven't even ventured off one individual page of my post history, this hasn't been difficult at all. I literally tagged you in this one, lol...

 

On 4/18/2020 at 8:10 AM, Mr Anonymous said:

Bingo. My post was exactly about this scenario. The guidelines are so vague about testing that it leaves the door wide open for governors to manipulate things the way that suits their political agenda. I think it's naive to ignore the political component in the political forum. Seemingly no one is stunned that conservatives seem gung ho to reopen while liberals seem to want to stay shut down. So predicting the action of an individual state based on whether the governor has an R or a D next to their name doesn't seem like some dirty notion. While peeves me off to no end if that the middle options are being ignored. You don't have to reopen today, but you damn well better figure out a plan soon. Because people are starting to make the decision for you by going out in public. I really don't know what @The Commish is "driving" at with me. It's obvious how political the decision making of everyone involved is. Why would or should that be a forbidden topic in this forum?

 

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16 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Shouldn't have to go back far...they only started doing it last week. :thanks: 

 

In this one I was criticizing Trump for calling out a few states with his "Liberate" tweets that were targeted to Dem governors in states that hadn't yet met phase one criteria. Shall I go on or do you concede that your assumptions were inaccurate?

 

On 4/17/2020 at 1:47 PM, Mr Anonymous said:

He was definitely trying to stir up pressure against some governors he didn't think would be following the guidelines to reopen. And it was a dumb move. The pressure would have been there naturally at the appropriate time. And by appropriate time I mean when the criteria were safely met.

 

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23 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Shouldn't have to go back far...they only started doing it last week. :thanks: 

 

One last one for good measure. Note those two oft used, key words: "both sides"...

 

On 4/18/2020 at 10:12 AM, Mr Anonymous said:

A blueprint was provided by everyone's favorite health experts and it took less than 2 days for it to become apparent that people on both sides weren't going to follow it.

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Anonymous said:

 

One last one for good measure. Note those two oft used, key words: "both sides"...

 

 

None of those were what I asked you for, but I get it.  :lmao:

I'll just let the silence on the specific acts that were actually committed speak for itself.  For someone who is searching for political hypocrisy in others, you sure can't seem to see it in yourself.

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

None of those were what I asked you for, but I get it.  :lmao:

I'll just let the silence on the specific acts that were actually committed speak for itself.  For someone who is searching for political hypocrisy in others, you sure can't seem to see it in yourself.

What in the flip? Here's what you asked...

Quote

Maybe I missed you railing on the states who aren't following the guidelines like you were railing on your governor for maybe not following the rules when the time comes to put him to the test.  I feel like I've been pretty good reading though and if you were as vigorous with those not following the guidelines and opening too early, I'm pretty sure I'd have seen it.  Do you have a link?

 

I then very quickly and easily provided 5 posts where I did indeed rail on states who were opening or would open too soon, criticized the President for calling out Dem govs who weren't yet reopening, and showed quite clearly that I was just as vigorous in my criticism of governors opening too early. Are you deranged? Do you need more? Are you completely unaware at how poorly you're coming off here?

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6 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Are you completely unaware at how poorly you're coming off here?

Based upon personal experience, no one is aware of how poorly they represent themselves on these boards; except me, I know I leave a lot to be desired.

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2 hours ago, The Commish said:

Shouldn't have to go back far...they only started doing it last week. :thanks: 

 

Seriously, how many do you need? You look ridiculous continuing to try and push this notion.

 

On 4/18/2020 at 10:17 AM, Mr Anonymous said:

Right and I've faulted the Republican ones as well for starting to reopen things without the proper measures in place. Agendas are going to screw us all.

 

On 4/20/2020 at 3:34 PM, Mr Anonymous said:

Agreed. This can't be a free for all reopening. Nothing should be reopening without the necessary measures for that individual business. Businesses should have plenty of incentive to meet the requirements. And if they don't, then they stay closed, that simple. Same for the public wanting so desperately to frequent these businesses. If you don't comply with the requirements to enter, then no entry for you. I'm sick and tired of both sides operating on the extremes. We're not animals, we can solve problems.

 

On 4/20/2020 at 3:03 PM, Mr Anonymous said:

Write 'em up for disorderly conduct if they cause a disruption. Just like these rallies of a couple hundred people, the type that would lose their #### over a temp check, are far outnumbered by people more than happy to comply with the safety precautions needed at this time. The amount of people who are this level of problem is being blown far out of proportion. Mr Ham's example of the Southwest line skipper was a great example of labeling to the extreme. He said that guy reflected 30-40% of people. Well, then why didn't 30-40 other people follow that guy's lead? I gotta believe that plane carried at least 100 passengers. If so many people are like the line skipper, then why was he the only one? 

If people really want to open things back up, they're going to have to deal with some changes.

 

On 4/23/2020 at 9:41 AM, Mr Anonymous said:

It makes total sense. A lot of people including myself have also warned of and criticized governors whose immediate reaction to the guidelines was to reopen before the criteria was met. Above all else people want some direction. The Nevada governor set no standards for what it will take to reopen ANYTHING. No one here that I know is calling for a return to February and for everything to open tomorrow. What would be nice is some consistency and common sense. We have Whitmer saying you can't even mow your lawn and then on a dime she's talking about it being time for some businesses to reopen. What people want most of all is a plan with some specifics from their leaders. Very few are providing that. And that goes for governors on the reopen and stay closed side.

 

On 4/22/2020 at 10:27 AM, Mr Anonymous said:

Likewise, I too hope you and your family are safe and well. 

I think it's possible to open up without massive testing, not because I don't want it, but because we might not have a choice. I've said before and I'll repeat it - opening up without safety measures is just as reckless as staying shut down without warrant. My problem with testing isn't the idea. Of course the more tests, the better. My problem is the daily news of how bad and inaccurate these tests are. Hopefully that's shifting and hopefully the promised escalation of ACCURATE testing is coming soon. But in places where hospitals are well below capacity and the numbers keep sliding downward, we should be reopening WITH SAFETY MEASURES. A key overlooked aspect of the current guidelines is that the 14 day decline has to come with EQUAL OR GREATER TESTING. You can't just lower testing and say "look how few cases we have!" 

I do not agree with governors opening states without those guidelines being met. Especially since so many states are on the cusp of, if not already meeting guidelines. There's too much manipulation of data going on by both sides. There should be NO MANIPULATING of anything. Where appropriate some businesses under shut down should be opening. But please do what the guidelines require such as masks, sanitation protocol, ensured distancing, capacity limits, etc. With those restrictions in place, heightened testing would be great but not essential. We're testing more than any nation in the world and a lot of those other nations are reopening because their curves have flattened. In parts of this country curves have been flattened as well, yet their governors are stalling and it's just as bad as the places where we're reopening too soon.

 

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3 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

The governor allowed golf, tennis, and pickle ball of all things. Oh and he allowed marijuana dispensaries to start offering curbside pick-up. Retail and small business should be open with restrictive measures. Colorado, also a Dem governor, opened these things with 3 times as many cases and deaths. The problem with Nevada's governor is he doesn't make up a decision on his own. He takes it upon himself to check with Newsom of California first.

I’m a Vegas resident as well.  As you well know, people are going to grocery stores today without masks and gloves, so any protective measures will be ignored.  And now you are placing the burden of enforcement on small business owners and employees.  They shouldn’t need to tell some guy with a sidearm to wear a mask or get out of the store.  That won’t end well.

It might be better to redirect the blame from the Governor to all these whining babies that can’t stay home or wear a simple mask and maybe we’d get out of this faster.

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4 minutes ago, lakerstan said:

I’m a Vegas resident as well.  As you well know, people are going to grocery stores today without masks and gloves, so any protective measures will be ignored.  And now you are placing the burden of enforcement on small business owners and employees.  They shouldn’t need to tell some guy with a sidearm to wear a mask or get out of the store.  That won’t end well.

It might be better to redirect the blame from the Governor to all these whining babies that can’t stay home or wear a simple mask and maybe we’d get out of this faster.

You and I must not be going to the same grocery store.

As to the bolded, from the recent string of posts, you can see that I have been critical of the "whining babies that can't stay home or wear a simple mask". Having a governor who enacts a plan at an appropriate time and having people follow it shouldn't be an either-or proposition. 

Should we simply never reopen?

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You know what this thread needs?  More reposting of our past posts.  It’s fascinating stuff.  We should dedicate a whole thread to, or ya know keep doing it here.  Whatever works   

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

You know what this thread needs?  More reposting of our past posts.  It’s fascinating stuff.  We should dedicate a whole thread to, or ya know keep doing it here.  Whatever works   

Hey, well maybe it will stop people from making false assertions. He did ask for proof of those posts and I provided.

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19 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Hey, well maybe it will stop people from making false assertions. He did ask for proof of those posts and I provided.

I’m not sure you made your point. Might want to do a few dozen more for good measure. That or until he changes his mind. Whatever comes first.  

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1 hour ago, Mr Anonymous said:

What in the flip? Here's what you asked...

 

I then very quickly and easily provided 5 posts where I did indeed rail on states who were opening or would open too soon, criticized the President for calling out Dem govs who weren't yet reopening, and showed quite clearly that I was just as vigorous in my criticism of governors opening too early. Are you deranged? Do you need more? Are you completely unaware at how poorly you're coming off here?

Again....there isn't a single post in any of those showing you criticizing any of the states who have actually opened up against the guidelines.  "If the states don't follow the rules" <> "I think it is a really poor decision that Georgia is opening up against the rules".  I'll say it again....you've been completely silent as the states open up in an irresponsible manner.  The "passion" you spoke with and posted with weeks ago around the possibility of a state might not following the guidelines was clear.  Now that states are actually opening up this way, I'd assume you'd be just as upset with the reality as the hypo you were so passionate about.  I can't help but notice there is a singular difference.

For instance...you can see posts from me and many others who agreed with you weeks ago that if states didn't follow the guidelines (regardless of how vague and open to interpretation they are) they should be admonished for it.  You will also see a lot of us agreeing with you then, admonishing these specific states (mine included) for opening up outside the guidelines.  You can read my comments on Georiga, Mississippi, and SC for example.....as many of the others.

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:lmao:

And you can throw the personal attacks right here into the threads for all to see rather than PMing me.  If you have something to say to me, you can say it here.  My PMs are for people I actually know and communicate with about things they may not want exposed here on the boards.  Thanks.

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Just now, The Commish said:

:lmao:

And you can throw the personal attacks right here into the threads for all to see rather than PMing me.  If you have something to say to me, you can say it here.  My PMs are for people I actually know and communicate with about things they may not want exposed here on the boards.  Thanks.

Yeah I'm sure people want to scroll through the personal back and forth. You know where I again said that I hoped your wife is well and expressed my surprise at how odd you've become.

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14 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

So back on topic....  

What’s the consensus thoughts here on the chances for a re-flare up of outbreaks even IF Governor's do the appropriate thing and open via the guidelines?

Since page two listed prerequisites for states and how they should test and page five  did the same for employers, I'm guessing only political spin has any state close to meeting these guidelines.   So I think that claims that the guidelines were meet would not generally get the nod from the medical experts precisely because there is little to prevent a new wave of spreading the virus.  Now if this part of the guidelines are meaningfully met I'd think a responsive government could localize an outbreak.   

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14 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

Since page two listed prerequisites for states and how they should test and page five  did the same for employers, I'm guessing only political spin has any state close to meeting these guidelines.   So I think that claims that the guidelines were meet would not generally get the nod from the medical experts precisely because there is little to prevent a new wave of spreading the virus.  Now if this part of the guidelines are meaningfully met I'd think a responsive government could localize an outbreak.   

Not sure I agree with the first half of your assessment.  Cali is just days form moving to stage 2 and Newsome has been very conservative in managing this.   
Your bolded sentence is interesting and I sure hope so. My concern is the public pressure if a meaningful flare up happens.  

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26 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Not sure I agree with the first half of your assessment.  Cali is just days form moving to stage 2 and Newsome has been very conservative in managing this.   
Your bolded sentence is interesting and I sure hope so. My concern is the public pressure if a meaningful flare up happens.  

He says days, but it’s likely 2 more weeks. He’s buying time by soft-peddling his plan....I think there’d be some level of chaos if Gavin said “No Phase 2 until the end of May” at the beginning of April.  

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5 minutes ago, Quint said:

He says days, but it’s likely 2 more weeks. He’s buying time by soft-peddling his plan....I think there’d be some level of chaos if Gavin said “No Phase 2 until the end of May” at the beginning of April.  

I don’t agree.  No way he says days then changes it after the way he’s played this so far.  

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3 hours ago, dkp993 said:

So back on topic....  

What’s the consensus thoughts here on the chances for a re-flare up of outbreaks even IF Governor's do the appropriate thing and open via the guidelines?

It's more likely than a lot of people think. Even if there have been 5 times the cases as has been reported, we're nowhere near here immunity; there's evidence that this virus does not care about what time of year it is, as well as evidence that any immunity gained from an infection may be short lived. We're still in the first wave of this, and if it plays out like the Spanish Flu did, the second wave will be much worse. I pray to God I'm wrong, because I'd love for this to be over, but 6 weeks is simply not enough time to adequately outwait a pandemic of this magnitude.

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8 hours ago, Kal El said:
11 hours ago, dkp993 said:

So back on topic....  

What’s the consensus thoughts here on the chances for a re-flare up of outbreaks even IF Governor's do the appropriate thing and open via the guidelines?

It's more likely than a lot of people think. Even if there have been 5 times the cases as has been reported, we're nowhere near here immunity; there's evidence that this virus does not care about what time of year it is, as well as evidence that any immunity gained from an infection may be short lived. We're still in the first wave of this, and if it plays out like the Spanish Flu did, the second wave will be much worse. I pray to God I'm wrong, because I'd love for this to be over, but 6 weeks is simply not enough time to adequately outwait a pandemic of this magnitude.

In the John Oliver video I posted above, he states the “experts guidance” for the U.S. is to conduct between 5M and 20M tests per day (that’s the combined number of diagnostic and antibody tests.) Anyone seen anything regarding that?

Anyway, currently the U.S. is doing 200K tests per day.

We apparently have a much greater capacity if you’re talking about just the kits. But diagnostic kits are of no value if you don’t have enough reagents or swabs. We have had shortages of both.

Of course, the reagent is different for each manufacturer, and there are bottlenecks in the supply chain. For the diagnostic test, there are 10 approved antibody test manufacturers, and another 150 tests which have not received FDA approval. It’s basically the Wild West out there in the testing world with no one coordinating, duplication of effort, and no one effectively overseeing the supply chain.

Given the format, Oliver unsurprisingly does not give citation. I’ll try to do some research in between Zoom meetings to see if I can figure where he got his info.

The Last Week video also recaps some of delays in testing caused by the CDC; we basically lost the entire month of February as they struggled developing their own test. We declined the WHO offer to use their tests. You may recall the initial tests sent out were contaminated & didn’t work, and in that period they were not approving any private tests. By the end of the month they reversed course and opened it up to private labs.

Some of the diagnostic tests are notoriously unreliable. I tested negative for the virus and positive for the antibodies. Apparently my low grade fever and mild symptoms 3 weeks ago was Covid 19. Or am I false positive? No one knows. My primary care told me to continue living as if I don’t have the antibodies, because we don’t know for certain.

Hoping we have a seasonal decline. Seems like much of the country does not grasp what we are contending with, and seem to think their cabin fever is sufficient justification for ending shelter in place. Oh, and there are more important things than living (actual actual quote.) Like...$$.

In a Zoom call with a Lansing dental hygienist a few days, I discovered testing is incredibly difficult to obtain in Michigan. My sister (physical therapist) is working as a Hot Zone volunteer, teaching HWC how to properly don PPE. She confirmed the scarcity of testing in Michigan and said obtaining PPE rn is extremely chaotic.

Edited by BobbyLayne
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12 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

Yeah I'm sure people want to scroll through the personal back and forth. You know where I again said that I hoped your wife is well and expressed my surprise at how odd you've become.

There is no "back and forth"...they're coming from one direction :shrug: 

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11 hours ago, dkp993 said:

So back on topic....  

What’s the consensus thoughts here on the chances for a re-flare up of outbreaks even IF Governor's do the appropriate thing and open via the guidelines?

This will be easily answered in a couple weeks.  And the politics of it is already kicking in...there are people convinced that a continued reduction of cases can actually come in the form of 10,11,12,13,12,11,10,9 (number of deaths a week by day)....because there are "less" at the end of a week, that is "downward trend".  Thinking many of these states would actually reset and go "back" a phase is pure fantasy.

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23 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

In the John Oliver video I posted above, he states the “experts guidance” for the U.S. is to conduct between 5M and 20M tests per day (that’s the combined number of diagnostic and antibody tests.) Anyone seen anything regarding that?

Anyway, currently the U.S. is doing 200K tests per day.

We apparently have a much greater capacity if you’re talking about just the kits. But diagnostic kits are of no value if you don’t have enough reagents or swabs. We have had shortages of both.

Of course, the reagent is different for each manufacturer, and there are bottlenecks in the supply chain. For the diagnostic test, there are 10 approved antibody test manufacturers, and another 150 tests which have not received FDA approval. It’s basically the Wild West out there in the testing world with no one coordinating, duplication of effort, and no one effectively overseeing the supply chain.

Given the format, Oliver unsurprisingly does not give citation. I’ll try to do some research in between Zoom meetings to see if I can figure where he got his info.

The Last Week video also recaps some of delays in testing caused by the CDC; we basically lost the entire month of February as they struggled developing their own test. We declined the WHO offer to use their tests. You may recall the initial tests sent out were contaminated & didn’t work, and in that period they were not approving any private tests. By the end of the month they reversed course and opened it up to private labs.

Some of the diagnostic tests are notoriously unreliable. I tested negative for the virus and positive for the antibodies. Apparently my low grade fever and mild symptoms 3 weeks ago was Covid 19. Or am I false positive? No one knows. My primary care told me to continue living as if I don’t have the antibodies, because we don’t know for certain.

Hoping we have a seasonal decline. Seems like much of the country does not grasp what we are contending with, and seem to think their cabin fever is sufficient justification for ending shelter in place. Oh, and there are more important things than living (actual actual quote.) Like...$$.

In a Zoom call with a Lansing dental hygienist a few days, I discovered testing is incredibly difficult to obtain in Michigan. My sister (physical therapist) is working as a Hot Zone volunteer, teaching HWC how to properly don PPE. She confirmed the scarcity of testing in Michigan and said obtaining PPE rn is extremely chaotic.

We have been caught with our proverbial pants down, and we didn't have to be. If we had proper funding for a pandemic response team, we'd be a lot further along in fighting this. Well, that and a leader at the top, both would help.

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16 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

 

Took me about 30 seconds to find just one instance where I cautioned about the side that will reopen too soon. I know there are more and I'll add some more to come...

I don't believe health is the only factor driving liberals decision making. It's great cover though. It falls apart in places where the number of cases and death is and has always been low and when factoring in the death that will come with blanket stay at home shut downs of the economy. To completely ignore the exponentially growing hunger, poverty, suicide, domestic abuse rates proves is not simply about public health for liberals. The doctors told us - just get your numbers under control. Many, many places have done that and now the goalposts have been shifted. When there are other option besides blanket stay at homes and they are being ignored, it tells me there are agendas involved. The same way that reopening without the necessary measures in place exposes the agenda of the other side.

Sorry if this was previously covered, as I can't read a lot of this thread, but what are the factors that you think are driving liberals' decision making?

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1 hour ago, BobbyLayne said:

In the John Oliver video I posted above, he states the “experts guidance” for the U.S. is to conduct between 5M and 20M tests per day (that’s the combined number of diagnostic and antibody tests.) Anyone seen anything regarding that?

Anyway, currently the U.S. is doing 200K tests per day.

We apparently have a much greater capacity if you’re talking about just the kits. But diagnostic kits are of no value if you don’t have enough reagents or swabs. We have had shortages of both.

Of course, the reagent is different for each manufacturer, and there are bottlenecks in the supply chain. For the diagnostic test, there are 10 approved antibody test manufacturers, and another 150 tests which have not received FDA approval. It’s basically the Wild West out there in the testing world with no one coordinating, duplication of effort, and no one effectively overseeing the supply chain.

Given the format, Oliver unsurprisingly does not give citation. I’ll try to do some research in between Zoom meetings to see if I can figure where he got his info.

The Last Week video also recaps some of delays in testing caused by the CDC; we basically lost the entire month of February as they struggled developing their own test. We declined the WHO offer to use their tests. You may recall the initial tests sent out were contaminated & didn’t work, and in that period they were not approving any private tests. By the end of the month they reversed course and opened it up to private labs.

Some of the diagnostic tests are notoriously unreliable. I tested negative for the virus and positive for the antibodies. Apparently my low grade fever and mild symptoms 3 weeks ago was Covid 19. Or am I false positive? No one knows. My primary care told me to continue living as if I don’t have the antibodies, because we don’t know for certain.

Hoping we have a seasonal decline. Seems like much of the country does not grasp what we are contending with, and seem to think their cabin fever is sufficient justification for ending shelter in place. Oh, and there are more important things than living (actual actual quote.) Like...$$.

In a Zoom call with a Lansing dental hygienist a few days, I discovered testing is incredibly difficult to obtain in Michigan. My sister (physical therapist) is working as a Hot Zone volunteer, teaching HWC how to properly don PPE. She confirmed the scarcity of testing in Michigan and said obtaining PPE rn is extremely chaotic.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/road-map-recovery-report-20-million-coronavirus-tests/story?id=70230097

It's from this report. https://ethics.harvard.edu/Covid-Roadmap

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6 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Sorry if this was previously covered, as I can't read a lot of this thread, but what are the factors that you think are driving liberals' decision making?

I know you didnt ask me, but I think in my state the biggest driver of decision making for our governor is how this is affecting his strongest voting block. 

There is no way in hell things should be "opened up" in MKE county and since they cant do that, there is no way he will "open things up" unfairly in counties that have zero cases 5 hours drive away. 

So it isnt political to protect the thousands of people that need it in those areas, but I think it is political to enforce the same level of standards for the whole state based on that. 

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

I know you didnt ask me, but I think in my state the biggest driver of decision making for our governor is how this is affecting his strongest voting block. 

There is no way in hell things should be "opened up" in MKE county and since they cant do that, there is no way he will "open things up" unfairly in counties that have zero cases 5 hours drive away. 

So it isnt political to protect the thousands of people that need it in those areas, but I think it is political to enforce the same level of standards for the whole state based on that. 

In my county, beaches are opening up as a trial run, whereas the 3 counties to the south of us are not. Those 3 are among the hardest hit in Florida, and what's to stop them from driving up and clogging our beaches because they can't use theirs?

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7 minutes ago, Kal El said:

In my county, beaches are opening up as a trial run, whereas the 3 counties to the south of us are not. Those 3 are among the hardest hit in Florida, and what's to stop them from driving up and clogging our beaches because they can't use theirs?

That's the problem the "we're OK, our area doesn't have many cases so there's no reason to keep our city/county/region closed" crowd wants to ignore.  When PA closed its liquor stores (along with everything else) people were driving from Pittsburgh to West Virginia to buy it there. When the stores near the state line were sold out, they drove further into the state. It was so bad that all the WV liquor stores within 3 hours of the PA line were sold out and they actually had to institute a new policy that buyers had to show WV identification to buy alcohol. If people are willing to drive 6 hours to buy their rum, why wouldn't they drive that far for other reasons?  Right now, my county and the county directly north are scheduled to "partially open" (retail open, restaurants stay takeout only) on Friday. Great. But, Allegheny County/Pittsburgh is 40 minutes away and they aren't opening. In the last 3 days, every local news broadcast on the Pittsburgh TV channels has featured stories about the outlet mall in the "soon to be opened county". Want to guess what Saturday at the outlet mall is going to look like? 

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18 hours ago, pollardsvision said:

I agree that COVID-19 is far more difficult to deal with, for many reasons. I'm not comparing the diseases (although, I do wish folks on the right would have and would remain taking your stance here that COVID-19 is far worse than other flu pandemics).

I am comparing the results for the U.S. relative to the rest of the world.  The U.S. response to H1N1 was a resounding success by any measure.

So, a President successfully handles a real pandemic, and puts in place a system to deal with future pandemics. He does this with no explanation, and without putting anything similar in place.

Then, we get absolutely clobbered by a pandemic. We are #1 or #2 in the world in lives lost, depending on China's real numbers. #3 in the list will end up with far fewer than half of the lives we lost (yes, I know the U.S is a big country, just as it was in 2009).

How much of the difference falls on Trump? I have no idea. But when you take bold action like cutting a pandemic response team, he's got to own the results when things go poorly.

The issues I have with your position are:

We are the third largest country in the world by population behind only China and India.  So the raw numbers will almost certainly look worse here than any other country.  By raw numbers we have tested more people than any other country so it makes sense that we will have more positive cases and thus more deaths.  We have also been counting "presumptive" COVID patients that die as COVID deaths even without a positive test result.  So the reporting is slanted towards having someone die by COVID because that's how States are being funded.  Imagine a 90 year old in a nursing home, has congestive heart failure, history of strokes, diabetes has been in and out of the hospital for years, contracts COVID 19 and dies the next day...COVID death.  They may even mark it as a "presumptive" COVID death even if he didn't have a positive test. 

Then there are other factors to take into account like age of population, density of population, etc.  If you look at the map of infections here in the US you can see that large cities have rapid infection because of the close proximity of the population but other less populous States don't have the same rate of infection because the population is more spread out.  New York's response really makes things look very bad because they spread it to surrounding States.  Looking at infections and deaths by country as a barometer of the response effectiveness, without looking at a multitude of other factors doesn't really tell you much. 

When I see people continually bring up a pandemic response team, I go back to the question, "Would a response team have prevented COVID from reaching the US?"  Absolutely not.  So IMO, prevention would have been impossible.  So what should we look at next?  Do we have enough equipment to fight the virus?  The answer to that question was/is, yes.  Really, where the response falls short is testing.  But the testing procedures that were in place were antiquated and needed to be improved.  They were improved, now it's a matter of getting enough tests to the public.  But testing doesn't prevent the spread, it only informs.  So while the response hasn't been perfect, it's still been very good.  I guess we can always look at things in hindsight, but that's always 20/20 and almost never in context.    

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6 minutes ago, apalmer said:

That's the problem the "we're OK, our area doesn't have many cases so there's no reason to keep our city/county/region closed" crowd wants to ignore.  When PA closed its liquor stores (along with everything else) people were driving from Pittsburgh to West Virginia to buy it there. When the stores near the state line were sold out, they drove further into the state. It was so bad that all the WV liquor stores within 3 hours of the PA line were sold out and they actually had to institute a new policy that buyers had to show WV identification to buy alcohol. If people are willing to drive 6 hours to buy their rum, why wouldn't they drive that far for other reasons?  Right now, my county and the county directly north are scheduled to "partially open" (retail open, restaurants stay takeout only) on Friday. Great. But, Allegheny County/Pittsburgh is 40 minutes away and they aren't opening. In the last 3 days, every local news broadcast on the Pittsburgh TV channels has featured stories about the outlet mall in the "soon to be opened county". Want to guess what Saturday at the outlet mall is going to look like? 

Its almost like you already presented a solution. 

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12 hours ago, dkp993 said:

So back on topic....  

What’s the consensus thoughts here on the chances for a re-flare up of outbreaks even IF Governor's do the appropriate thing and open via the guidelines?

The whole phased re-openings are nothing more than a controlled infection.  Of course there will be flare ups, that's the point.  You get the increase in infections but you control it so it doesn't overwhelm the hospitals.  

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9 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

Do we have enough equipment to fight the virus?  The answer to that question was/is, yes.

I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with this.  Our front-line medical workers didn't, and still don't, have anywhere near enough PPE.

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47 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I know you didnt ask me, but I think in my state the biggest driver of decision making for our governor is how this is affecting his strongest voting block. 

There is no way in hell things should be "opened up" in MKE county and since they cant do that, there is no way he will "open things up" unfairly in counties that have zero cases 5 hours drive away. 

So it isnt political to protect the thousands of people that need it in those areas, but I think it is political to enforce the same level of standards for the whole state based on that. 

seems a little strange, though are you saying that the governor's liberal voting block would be against other parts of the state re-opening just because they can't?  why is that?

in PA, things are being done county-by-county.  different phases for different counties depending on their specific data.

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45 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

When I see people continually bring up a pandemic response team, I go back to the question, "Would a response team have prevented COVID from reaching the US?"  Absolutely not.  So IMO, prevention would have been impossible.  So what should we look at next?  Do we have enough equipment to fight the virus?  The answer to that question was/is, yes.  Really, where the response falls short is testing.  But the testing procedures that were in place were antiquated and needed to be improved.  They were improved, now it's a matter of getting enough tests to the public.  But testing doesn't prevent the spread, it only informs.  So while the response hasn't been perfect, it's still been very good.  I guess we can always look at things in hindsight, but that's always 20/20 and almost never in context.    

We dismissed the WHO test because we thought we could do better, then we spent a month developing a test that ended up not working. We banned private labs from developing their own tests. We showed no urgency whatsoever. All while the virus raged across the country. Then the administration had the gall to claim that things in the USA weren't that bad because our case numbers were so low. (They were low because we weren't testing people.)

Testing capacity is still below what we claimed it would be. The administration repeatedly claims that the tests are available, then backtracks and claims that they're "on order"! That alone proves that the response has not been "very good". It's been 3 months and we still don't have enough testing capability to open up the country.

That doesn't even account for the fact that we were literally welcoming infected people with open arms as they came streaming into the country, with no testing or quarantining. Because leadership assumed that the virus could only come from foreigners from China.

Pat yourself on the back all you want. It doesn't change the cold hard truth: we need to run millions of tests per day, and we're no where close to being ready to pull that off.

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41 minutes ago, Kal El said:

In my county, beaches are opening up as a trial run, whereas the 3 counties to the south of us are not. Those 3 are among the hardest hit in Florida, and what's to stop them from driving up and clogging our beaches because they can't use theirs?

I dont know the data in Florida so I wont get into some sort of back and forth where you have me at an obvious disadvantage. Maybe there opening beaches doesnt make sense. Does it generate revenue or commerce? Are there any parking restrictions? How many "entrances" are there, etc? Are those things impossible to implement? Does state law prohibit those things? I dont know any of that.

The only thing I will say is that hypothetical what ifs arent always very good rebuttals. 

I mean what if everybody started ignoring the SAH orders all at once? That's possible so I guess we shouldnt have them, right? 

Your reply probably would be, well the government would stop them. 

WI had a somewhat loosely similar issue with our state parks. They kept them open in the first stay at home order but actually made them free(brilliant).

Of course people came from all over and they were trashed and overcrowded. So they closed them. Now they opened them back up and put fees in place. Now maybe they will have to implement something like Mt. Whitneys lottery system if that still doesnt work. 

My county has a nice county park system. Lots of quarries that have been filled and beautiful beach areas setup. We will have this same problem soon and I imagine the county will just keep the beaches closed. They typically are open from memorial day until labor day for swimming, but you are free to play on the beach outside that. Yesterday I saw that wasnt even allowed. People were still doing it, but they werent supposed to be. 

Parks should be open and we should be encouraging people to get outside. So instead of coming up with reasons to not have them open it should always be how can we keep them open. 

Same approach should be taken in counties that have far less risk. It makes sense to have these places open so decisions should be made with that as the starting point. Not the other way around. 

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51 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:
1 hour ago, Snotbubbles said:

Do we have enough equipment to fight the virus?  The answer to that question was/is, yes.

I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with this.  Our front-line medical workers didn't, and still don't, have anywhere near enough PPE.

The Trump administration sent a huge shipment of PPE back to China in February. Why? Because the Trump administration assumed that we wouldn't need it because A) he "closed the border", and B) because our numbers were so low.

But we now know that A) the border wasn't really closed, and B) the numbers were kept low because we weren't testing.

It was a staggering display of hubris which set us back weeks and cost thousands of lives.

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The pandemic response team wasn't there to prevent a disease from coming here.  Literally nobody has even inferred that anyone was going to keep Covid from coming here.  Whats the point if even making the argument that they wouldn’t  prevent it?

 

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