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Government Response To The Coronavirus


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11 minutes ago, whoknew said:

 

Reports out now that he has died.

RIP.

a death that was totally preventable. When is the Republican party going to wake up and realize that its a matter of life and death. Those guys and their media outlets are flat out killing people and in some cases themselves and loved ones.

So senseless

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This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the

Australia has had months of little to no community spread and even then it was confined to one state. By and large Australians are running around doing the right thing, sport was and is still hap

I am confident we are going to hit >750K deaths.  I think it might be a million.  I don't post a ton but I'm an ER doc in a big city. This is by far the worse I've seen since the pandemic star

33 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Well I absolutely don't want Whitmer.  Her executive orders are haphazard and lack real thought.  Don't get me started on a Governor out, against her OWN executive order, protesting in public for BLM. So sorry, I am not a big fan of our current governor.  However I am not going to get into that debate here.

I have been consistent on this.  I do not agree that we should shut down businesses.  This mindset of save every life is short sighted and ONLY considers the response to a virus that is showing itself more and more to be less fatal as previously believed.  We overreacted.  I would counter and say if YOU are compromised, then YOU protect YOURSELF..Don't go to public places.  Social distance when you are around others.  Wear your mask.  Don't crush the business owners.

 

Also, the virus situation shouldn't be the ONLY measuring stick. When you say "we have done pretty well" I flat out disagree when we are looking at over 25% of people in the state unemployed.  Millions can't get enough food, millions are looking at a very likely chance of losing homes or apartments.  So the virus isn't the only thing I want to measure by, and I don't think it should be the only thing.

BS, whitmer has saved ton of lives. that's the bottom line.

 

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4 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

BS, whitmer has saved ton of lives. that's the bottom line.

 

Last poll I saw had 63% strongly/somewhat support her handing of COVID, 31% strongly/somewhat do not support, 6% don't know what a governor is.  Most of the state recognizes she's done well overall.

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26 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Well I absolutely don't want Whitmer.  Her executive orders are haphazard and lack real thought.  Don't get me started on a Governor out, against her OWN executive order, protesting in public for BLM. So sorry, I am not a big fan of our current governor.  However I am not going to get into that debate here.

I have been consistent on this.  I do not agree that we should shut down businesses.  This mindset of save every life is short sighted and ONLY considers the response to a virus that is showing itself more and more to be less fatal as previously believed.  We overreacted.  I would counter and say if YOU are compromised, then YOU protect YOURSELF..Don't go to public places.  Social distance when you are around others.  Wear your mask.  Don't crush the business owners.

 

Also, the virus situation shouldn't be the ONLY measuring stick. When you say "we have done pretty well" I flat out disagree when we are looking at over 25% of people in the state unemployed.  Millions can't get enough food, millions are looking at a very likely chance of losing homes or apartments.  So the virus isn't the only thing I want to measure by, and I don't think it should be the only thing.

IMO, it's not an either/or thing.  It's not kill the economy or let the virus spread, the economy takes a hit either way.  It's do we stop the virus or not?  I believe in short term pain to stop the long term problems.

The best way to save the economy is to stop the virus.  I've been consistent with this for months.

on MI vs FL: I don't know what the unemployment rates of the two states were prior to COVID.  Given how much Florida depends on tourism (i.e. theme parks, cruises, hotels), I'd have to assume they aren't doing well.  Here's one article I found on the topic:

Quote

 

Florida remained among the three worst states in the nation last week for number of first-time unemployment claims.

The state had 105,410 first-time claims in the week ending July 18, down from 132,831 in the previous week, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. This comes after claims nearly doubled in one week for the week ending July 11.

Florida's number of claims was behind only California (292,673) and Georgia (120,281).

The Sunshine State's economy has been reopening slowly since May, but a rise in Covid-19 cases has caused the state to implement policies that may challenge some businesses like bars and breweries.

 

It looks like FL is sitting at 10.7% and Michigan is at 14.8%.  To make a fair comparison, you would have to look at Michigan and Florida's unemployment prior to COVID.

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14 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

i was looking at this.

https://www.michigan.gov/dtmb/0,5552,7-358-82546_9352_99726-529743--,00.html#:~:text=Michigan's April 2020 unemployment rate,16.5 percent in December 1982.

Specifically this part of that link

Michigan’s April 2020 unemployment rate of 22.7 percent is the highest rate since at least 1976 (as far back as comparable estimates go), likely making it an all-time high. The previous high rate over this period was 16.5 percent in December 1982.

So no, but by my measurement she is NOT doing well.

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44 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I have been consistent on this.  I do not agree that we should shut down businesses.  This mindset of save every life is short sighted and ONLY considers the response to a virus that is showing itself more and more to be less fatal as previously believed.  We overreacted.  I would counter and say if YOU are compromised, then YOU protect YOURSELF..Don't go to public places.  Social distance when you are around others.  Wear your mask.  Don't crush the business owners.

So we overreacted and STILL have 150,000 deaths with the potential for another 100,000 or so according to experts. Imagine what those numbers would be like if we hadn't "overreacted". 

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Just now, apalmer said:

So we overreacted and STILL have 150,000 deaths with the potential for another 100,000 or so according to experts. Imagine what those numbers would be like if hadn't "overreacted". 

Yes, I think we over reacted.  I am aware of the numbers.  

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Just now, moleculo said:

also, Michigan has had >50 deaths per day since 5/31, with a clear downwards trend since April.  Yesterday Florida had 216 with a clear and present upwards trend.

And I am willing to say a good part of that was NOT because someone got a haircut, or a beer at a restaurant etc etc..Its cause they are hanging out in groups, and the young people are being careless.that DOESNT change by stripping someone of their livelihood.

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1 hour ago, supermike80 said:

You're not gonna like my answer.   We need to do more to shield the vulnerable, but the spike in cases doesn't automatically mean we need to shut things down.  There is more and more evidence showing the cases can and are more mild than not.   

Try me by answering the question :shrug: It's not a gotcha question....you seem to be trying to go somewhere I have no desire to go...just wanted your opinion on how Florida is doing right now.

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Just now, The Commish said:

Try me by answering the question :shrug: It's not a gotcha question....you seem to be trying to go somewhere I have no desire to go...just wanted your opinion on how Florida is doing right now.

I thought I just did.   Florida's cases are increasing, their deaths are trending up as well.  

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2 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

i was looking at this.

https://www.michigan.gov/dtmb/0,5552,7-358-82546_9352_99726-529743--,00.html#:~:text=Michigan's April 2020 unemployment rate,16.5 percent in December 1982.

Specifically this part of that link

Michigan’s April 2020 unemployment rate of 22.7 percent is the highest rate since at least 1976 (as far back as comparable estimates go), likely making it an all-time high. The previous high rate over this period was 16.5 percent in December 1982.

So no, but by my measurement she is NOT doing well.

Ok so “way over 25%” which you wrote above was “way above reality.” And my point is more that since her term started UE dropped 1% pre covid and the current 14% is also way below your statement earlier as well. While the jump in April is no doubt because of her stay at home order, we have trended back down in both covid and unemployment. 

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1 minute ago, supermike80 said:

And I am willing to say a good part of that was NOT because someone got a haircut, or a beer at a restaurant etc etc..Its cause they are hanging out in groups, and the young people are being careless.that DOESNT change by stripping someone of their livelihood.

so what is Michigan doing right that FL is doing wrong?

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Not to be a buddinski into your conversation, but I think this is an incredibly difficult time to be a governor. And most of them are trying to do their best.

I live in Texas and our governor has made mistakes, no doubt. For example, he went from Stage 1 to Stage 2 to Stage 3 (in opening businesses) with only 2 weeks between each stage. This was way too fast - before there was sufficient data.

But he's got a really tough job here - he has to balance the incredible damage to our economy with protecting the safety of Texans. That's a really, really hard call to make. And for the most part, I think he has done it while paying attention to the data and using that as a guide.

So I generally give the governors a little slack. They've all made mistakes. But its an INCREDIBLY difficult job right now. And they are getting no support from the White House. In fact, for long stretches, the WH was actively sabotaging efforts to control the spread.

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Just now, apalmer said:

What level of death does it take to balance closing of businesses then?

That's a GREAT question!!! I LOVE THAT QUESTION...Because I like to flip it.  We want to shut things down.  For how long? What are the acceptable number of people that should be allowed to die before we open up again? Zero?  Are we trying to save every life?  And if not why not?  How many are we trying to save?  

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1 minute ago, Snorkelson said:

Ok so “way over 25%” which you wrote above was “way above reality.” And my point is more that since her term started UE dropped 1% pre covid and the current 14% is also way below your statement earlier as well. While the jump in April is no doubt because of her stay at home order, we have trended back down in both covid and unemployment. 

I apologize..the highest number since 1967,  22%, it was not way over 25.  Sue me.

 

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1 minute ago, whoknew said:

Not to be a buddinski into your conversation, but I think this is an incredibly difficult time to be a governor. And most of them are trying to do their best.

I live in Texas and our governor has made mistakes, no doubt. For example, he went from Stage 1 to Stage 2 to Stage 3 (in opening businesses) with only 2 weeks between each stage. This was way too fast - before there was sufficient data.

But he's got a really tough job here - he has to balance the incredible damage to our economy with protecting the safety of Texans. That's a really, really hard call to make. And for the most part, I think he has done it while paying attention to the data and using that as a guide.

So I generally give the governors a little slack. They've all made mistakes. But its an INCREDIBLY difficult job right now. And they are getting no support from the White House. In fact, for long stretches, the WH was actively sabotaging efforts to control the spread.

I applaud EVERYONE's efforts for something new and scary and nothing really anyone has seen before. I agree with that.  I'm not interested in "punishing" Whitmer for her response(As some have tried to recall her..GTFO) but I don't like some of what shes done.

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Just now, supermike80 said:

I apologize..the highest number since 1967,  22%, it was not way over 25.  Sue me.

 

Hey man, just calling the hyperbole what it is, sorry I did it snarky. 
What is closed in Michigan right now that you think we should have open? Seems like most things are available in some capacity, and our covid numbers are trending the way we would like. Seems like about as good a balance we could hope for.

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9 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Hey man, just calling the hyperbole what it is, sorry I did it snarky. 
What is closed in Michigan right now that you think we should have open? Seems like most things are available in some capacity, and our covid numbers are trending the way we would like. Seems like about as good a balance we could hope for.

Dude..Stop it. Please just stop it.  I'm talking about when it started, we over reacted.  We closed the whole state down, and unemployment jumped to the highest level seen here since 1976 (but under 25%).  We over reacted.  We crushed people.  And I don't want to that to happen again. So for me, and what got me started down this entire wormhole with you guys, is the mindset that we need contact tracing so we can immediately find things to shut down. I don't want to use it for that purpose if that's OK.  I'd like people to be able to have homes and food etc.  

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11 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

a death that was totally preventable. When is the Republican party going to wake up and realize that its a matter of life and death. Those guys and their media outlets are flat out killing people and in some cases themselves and loved ones.

So senseless

“Masks will not be mandatory for the event, which will be attended by President Trump. PEOPLE ARE FED UP!” 

It's enraging to be governed by people so deeply steeped in their own BS they'd rather die than break with their ideology.  I can't imagine being willing to lose my life so senselessly.  If only there were a word to describe this mindset.

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Herman Cain died of coronavirus, after contracting it within a couple weeks of the Tulsa rally, where he attended without a mask. It’s within the incubation window. Whether he got it there or elsewhere, the intent to lead by example with soldiering on without a mask has proven deadly. Tragic, and unnecessary.

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Just now, Mr. Ham said:

Herman Cain died of coronavirus, after contracting it within a couple weeks of the Tulsa rally, where he attended without a mask. It’s within the incubation window. Whether he got it there or elsewhere, the intent to lead by example with soldiering on without a mask has proven deadly. Tragic, and unnecessary.

I believe in masks.

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1 minute ago, supermike80 said:

Dude..Stop it. Please just stop it.  I'm talking about when it started, we over reacted.  We closed the whole state down, and unemployment jumped to the highest level seen here since 1976 (but under 25%).  We over reacted.  We crushed people.  And I don't want to that to hapen again. So for me, and what got me started down this entire wormhole with your guys, is the mindset that we need contact tracing so we can immediately find things to shut down. I don't want to use it for that purpose if that's OK.  I'd like people to be able to have homes and food etc.  

I’ll try to keep it constructive, I appreciate your responses and as a fellow Michigander care about your opinions. I also know you’re getting ganged up on here, so I won’t pile on. I also want people to have homes food etc and this is an unlike anything we’ve faced in modern history and requires unprecedented action to make sure people have that stuff and also don’t die.

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1 minute ago, Snorkelson said:

I’ll try to keep it constructive, I appreciate your responses and as a fellow Michigander care about your opinions. I also know you’re getting ganged up on here, so I won’t pile on. I also want people to have homes food etc and this is an unlike anything we’ve faced in modern history and requires unprecedented action to make sure people have that stuff and also don’t die.

Well I appreciate that.  I'm aware my opinion isn't popular, especially here, so I'm willing to take the pile on.  

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24 minutes ago, Mene said:

Last poll I saw had 63% strongly/somewhat support her handing of COVID, 31% strongly/somewhat do not support, 6% don't know what a governor is.  Most of the state recognizes she's done well overall.

Well, the math that Trump seems to be using for his reelection strategy is 38% >  1.0 - 38%.  Therefore, it stands to reason that 31% > 63%.  

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29 minutes ago, Mene said:

Last poll I saw had 63% strongly/somewhat support her handing of COVID, 31% strongly/somewhat do not support, 6% don't know what a governor is.  Most of the state recognizes she's done well overall.

Polls are 100% worthless buttttt I don't wanna do that fight again  LOL

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41 minutes ago, zftcg said:

It is probably the case that the death rate is lower than it was in NY in the spring, due to some combination of lower average age as well as improved treatment protocols. And of course the fact that we're testing a broader range of people means that we're going to see a lot more asymptomatic cases (we had those a couple months ago, but we didn't even know those people were positive because they weren't being tested). But that doesn't mean that the virus has become any less dangerous.

I try to remind myself as much as possible that comparing anything to what we saw in NYC is incredibly not wise.  If we take a second to think about that time, we realize that testing then was SIGNIFICANTLY worse than it is now.  Pause and think about that and you realize how bad it really was at that time.

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24 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I thought I just did.   Florida's cases are increasing, their deaths are trending up as well.  

You didn't...I asked you your opinion on what Florida is doing and if the current state (already know that) is acceptable in your view.

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22 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

That's a GREAT question!!! I LOVE THAT QUESTION...Because I like to flip it.  We want to shut things down.  For how long? What are the acceptable number of people that should be allowed to die before we open up again? Zero?  Are we trying to save every life?  And if not why not?  How many are we trying to save?  

I guess what you are not getting is we needed to follow he EU path, where they have contained the virus really well compared to us. Its our NATIONAL strategy and our division that has us here.

 

 

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1 minute ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

I guess what you are not getting is we needed to follow he EU path, where they have contained the virus really well compared to us. Its our NATIONAL strategy and our division that has us here.

 

 

Ok.  Thanks

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31 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Polls are 100% worthless buttttt I don't wanna do that fight again  LOL

I've noticed that data and context aren't what you are shooting for, that doesn't change the fact that a majority of this state are okay with how Whitmer has handled this.  It hasn't been flawless, but it's been better than many, and most of us understand that.

buttttt, keep up the good fight LOL

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3 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Im aware this is MY link and I'm sure there can be counters to this...but it supports my position so here it is

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/q2-gdp-us-economy-coronavirus-pandemic-consumer-171558880.html

I think a lot of people's point that that while it would have hurt for a few weeks for the economy, because people were so against doing a harder shutdown for whatever reason, we are still months into this, cases rising, and still not a great look for the economy.  Just think about all the industries that are still shutdown because we wouldn't/couldn't contain this - travel, movies, sports, etc, etc..   

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8 minutes ago, Osaurus said:

Caring has to be on the list imo.

Agreed. So are you saying we shut everything down until no one dies from this?  Because if you sat no, then you don't care about that person that died..Right?  See how dumb of an argument that is?

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3 minutes ago, Mene said:

I've noticed that data and context aren't what you are shooting for, that doesn't change the fact that a majority of this state are okay with how Whitmer has handled this.  It hasn't been flawless, but it's been better than many, and most of us understand that.

buttttt, keep up the good fight LOL

exactly, I mean what is he going to do with his "the governor is an idiot" sign?

 

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18 minutes ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

President Trump is a failure and needs to leave office asap so we can get the country back to normal. And by normal I mean back to American democracy. This is disgusting already.

No, Trump is doing everything I expected him to do when I voted for him.  He has been outstanding.

Laugh at this post if you agree with me 

Edited by Don't Noonan
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7 minutes ago, Mene said:

I've noticed that data and context aren't what you are shooting for, that doesn't change the fact that a majority of this state are okay with how Whitmer has handled this.  It hasn't been flawless, but it's been better than many, and most of us understand that.

buttttt, keep up the good fight LOL

I posted a 22% unemployment rate.  That's data isn't it?  

And your "fact" about the majority of the state is not a fact.  It's a poll

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39 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I try to remind myself as much as possible that comparing anything to what we saw in NYC is incredibly not wise.  If we take a second to think about that time, we realize that testing then was SIGNIFICANTLY worse than it is now.  Pause and think about that and you realize how bad it really was at that time.

Absolutely. Just to cite one example, Florida's current daily number of positives (~10K) is similar to what NY was seeing back in April, but I saw an estimate that if NY had been testing as widely as FL is right now, its number would have been like 30K.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Ham said:

Herman Cain died of coronavirus, after contracting it within a couple weeks of the Tulsa rally, where he attended without a mask. It’s within the incubation window. Whether he got it there or elsewhere, the intent to lead by example with soldiering on without a mask has proven deadly. Tragic, and unnecessary.

He also tweeted out an anti-mask message the day before the Tulsa rally, which has since been deleted.

No tweet from Trump yet? Gee I wonder why.

Facts and science don't care about our political affiliations people!!

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in the FL vs MI debate:

Florida shelter started 4/3.  Rt was 0.82 at the time.  Shelter ended 5/4, with Rt = 0.97.  in total, Florida had a Rt of 1.00 or less between 3/27 and 5/6 (40 days).  Rt peaked at 1.36 on June 1.  The day Florida opened up, they had 1368 infections (adjusted positive, per Rt.live's charts).

Michigan started shelter in place 3/24 and ended June 1.  Shelter started with Rt = 0.89 and ended with Rt at 1.13.  In total, Michigan had Rt of 1.00 or less between 3/20 and 5/26 (67 days).  Rt peaked at 1.19 on June 9.  The day Michigan opened up, they had 145 positive infections*.

In both cases, Rt began to rise before the shelter was ended - I'm not sure what to make of that.  

It seems to me that the difference is that the shelter was much more effective in Michigan than Florida - duration as well as effectiveness.  the Rt curve in Michigan is "U" shaped, whereas in Florida it was "V"- that is, there was really no sustained period with low transmission.  Because Florida failed to get the virus under control before opening up, and because Rt was a good bit higher after opening up, Fl's numbers quickly grew exponentially.

I'll let residents of the state speak to how effective the shelter was, and also what has transpired since.  But, looking at the data, it's clear to me that Michigan shelter in place did the job, whereas Florida managed both economic pain and ineffective results.

*when comparing raw number,s it's worth noting that Florida's population is roughly 3x Michigan.

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