Government Response To The Coronavirus

[supermike80 1,430]

5 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I assume because of Detroit getting hit early and state leadership, you have a different experience in MI than a majority of the nation currently. 

Can't change the past.  What happened happened and I've moved on.  However, once again, for the eleventy billionth time, what I am saying here is I don't want to do it again

[timschochet 33,330]

In the hearings going on right now Jacobs is relentlessly attacking Dr. Fauci, bringing up violent protests in Portland (apparently these are the main reason for the spread of the virus). 

[The Commish 13,410]

19 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

That wasn't what you asked before.  You asked if I was satisfied with the current state of Florida Vs Michigan. And I said no.  That doesn't mean I wouldn't switch.  I want things to remain open.  If that means cases rise, then we need to look at why that is happening. I personally believe businesses being open are a small part of that.  

I asked you if you'd be satisfied with your state being in the same position that Florida is in right now...perhaps poorly worded, but I quoted it above.  I'll ask a different way.  If you had to choose between the current state of Florida (as I outlined several posts up) and the current state of Michigan, which would you choose to be living in today?

[KarmaPolice 16,009]

4 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Can't change the past.  What happened happened and I've moved on.  However, once again, for the eleventy billionth time, what I am saying here is I don't want to do it again

I honestly dont know what MI cases look like in general or specifically where you are at this time.   I know around here only 1 county took it seriously and our state spiked a bit.  We are shutting down more because of that.  If your area did better from the outset and aren't seeing cases spike that's great.  

[supermike80 1,430]

1 minute ago, The Commish said:

I asked you if you'd be satisfied with your state being in the same position that Florida is in right now...perhaps poorly worded, but I quoted it above.  I'll ask a different way.  If you had to choose between the current state of Florida (as I outlined several posts up) and the current state of Michigan, which would you choose to be living in today?

I feel like you're trying to back me into a corner here.  Let me be more clear. I want the state to not close anything.  I want business to be allowed to remain open.  I would prefer to not have as many cases as Florida, and that may be inevitable anyway but I also am not making that connection as direct. As I have said, I put less on business being open and more on gatherings.  That's where I stand on it.  

[supermike80 1,430]

1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

I honestly dont know what MI cases look like in general or specifically where you are at this time.   I know around here only 1 county took it seriously and our state spiked a bit.  We are shutting down more because of that.  If your area did better from the outset and aren't seeing cases spike that's great.  

yes it is.

[KarmaPolice 16,009]

Just now, supermike80 said:

yes it is.

Yes what is? Your area is a lot better and not seeing cases rise? 

[supermike80 1,430]

1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

Yes what is? Your area is a lot better and not seeing cases rise? 

"If your area did better from the outset and aren't seeing cases spike that's great" 

 

Anytime there are less cases, thats great

Edited July 31, 2020 by supermike80

[KarmaPolice 16,009]

7 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

"If your area did better from the outset and aren't seeing cases spike that's great" 

 

Anytime there are less cases, thats great

Are cases currently rising at all in your area?

Edited July 31, 2020 by KarmaPolice

[supermike80 1,430]

3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Are cases currently rising at all in your area?

State wide they are staying flat for the most part.

[Rich Conway 3,576]

28 minutes ago, timschochet said:

In the hearings going on right now Jacobs is relentlessly attacking Dr. Fauci, bringing up violent protests in Portland (apparently these are the main reason for the spread of the virus). 

"I agree that it is important for the government to be able to determine the source of outbreaks in a timely fashion.  That is why I have recommended that the federal government institute a widespread campaign for testing and tracing that includes free, on-demand testing for all US residents as well as funding for a federal program to perform extensive contact tracing for all positive or suspected cases.  Shall I assume you have supported funding for those programs in Congressional deliberations?"

Edited July 31, 2020 by Rich Conway

[SoBeDad 2,243]

21 minutes ago, timschochet said:

In the hearings going on right now Jacobs is relentlessly attacking Dr. Fauci, bringing up violent protests in Portland (apparently these are the main reason for the spread of the virus). 

Any data to back up those claims? Better contact tracing, on a national level, would help. I'm not sure if that is feasible, but NIH is spending alot of money on COVID stuff.

Anecdotes:

My daughter and her group of friends attended 2 of the big BLM marches in Miami and thus far none of them have tested positive. With social media, that group is large. They wore masks and were outdoors, which may have helped. There should be some increase in the virus spread due to the marches, but how much is just conjecture now.

Herman Cain didn't attend any protests, but he was at the Tulsa rally, unmasked.

[Northern Voice 10,027]

This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the States. 

Since people are talking Michigan, let's start there:

On July 29, the date there is last complete data for both Michigan had twice as many more new cases (996) than the entire country of Canada (476).

The population of Michigan is roughly 10 million, the population of Canada is roughly 38 million.

The biggest hot spot remaining in Canada is Windsor, which borders Michigan.

----

90% of the Canadian population lives with 100 miles of the United States border. 

----

In terms of countries, the United States has about 10x the population of Canada. The United States had 68,543 new cases yesterday, Canada had 476.

----

Canadians and Americans are basically the same people, particularly near the border. People in British Columbia and Washington State are no different. People in Southern Ontario and in New York are no different. People in Quebec and people in Vermont are maybe a bit different but same basic conditions, same population density (yes, Canada has a huge mass of land but again, 90% of people live in a small area near the United States border.

---

That the differences between the two countries in terms of numbers and response are so wide is stunning to me. 

---

So what was different in Canada? I don't know but here is what my observations would be.

- We had access to at will, on demand testing very early - whether you had any symptoms/close contact or not, drive thru tests were available and contact tracing for positive results as a result was, I believe, months ahead of the United States. I know that the "test less" notion is more recent in the United States but "test more, earlier" was what happened in Canada. 

- The Canadian population as a whole (painting with a broad brush and there are exceptions) is more submissive, like European countries, Korea, Japan, etc... and when they are told to stay home, wear a mask, socially distance, for the most part they will do it for the collective group, rather than rally against it because of "personal freedoms".

- Masks. This goes with the above point but I don't think can be overstated. It was well under control in comparison because of the early testing and contact tracing, so the starting point was lower but there was a noticeable dip in the numbers everywhere when masks went from "recommended" to "mandatory". We do still have people fighting against it but the group is small, and the compliance rate is very high.

I really think that's all the difference. 

---

I've deliberately posted almost all objective facts and I don't care to debate it, the numbers really speak for themselves. Just providing some context from north of the wall.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Northern Voice

[The Commish 13,410]

22 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I feel like you're trying to back me into a corner here.  Let me be more clear. I want the state to not close anything.  I want business to be allowed to remain open.  I would prefer to not have as many cases as Florida, and that may be inevitable anyway but I also am not making that connection as direct. As I have said, I put less on business being open and more on gatherings.  That's where I stand on it.  

I'm not...not at all.  The point is, without the testing in place to do contact tracing we are forced into this model where we have to choose between "the freedom of being open" and "the safety of individuals".  At the beginning of this whole thing, Michigan and Florida were not all that different in terms of circumstances.  Both states took VERY different directions in their "shutdowns" and "reopenings".....like polar opposite directions.  Current state of each state is the direct result of those decisions.  That is to say, Michigan is where they are because of the decisions they made.  Same holds true for Florida.  Michigan couldn't have gotten to where they are today by making the same decisions Florida did.

So what I am trying to understand is which you prefer knowing you can't have both.  That's all...nothing more than that.  Down here, spread is pretty clearly happening at bars and restaurants.  I have yet to hear of a major spread event at a nail salon or barbershop.  I can absolutely see the "WTF" perspective from those businesses.  However, there are still MANY who are contributing in a significant way to the problem.

[supermike80 1,430]

9 minutes ago, Northern Voice said:

This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the States. 

Since people are talking Michigan, let's start there:

On July 29, the date there is last complete data for both Michigan had twice as many more new cases (996) than the entire country of Canada (476).

The population of Michigan is roughly 10 million, the population of Canada is roughly 38 million.

The biggest hot spot remaining in Canada is Windsor, which borders Michigan.

----

90% of the Canadian population lives with 100 miles of the United States border. 

----

In terms of countries, the United States has about 10x the population of Canada. The United States had 68,543 new cases yesterday, Canada had 476.

----

Canadians and Americans are basically the same people, particularly near the border. People in British Columbia and Washington State are no different. People in Southern Ontario and in New York are no different. People in Quebec and people in Vermont are maybe a bit different but same basic conditions, same population density (yes, Canada has a huge mass of land but again, 90% of people live in a small area near the United States border.

---

That the differences between the two countries in terms of numbers and response are so wide is stunning to me. 

---

So what was different in Canada? I don't know but here is what my observations would be.

- We had access to at will, on demand testing very early - whether you had any symptoms/close contact or not, drive thru tests were available and contact tracing for positive results as a result was, I believe, months ahead of the United States. I know that the "test less" notion is more recent in the United States but "test more, earlier" was what happened in Canada. 

- The Canadian population as a whole (painting with a broad brush and there are exceptions) is more submissive, like European countries, Korea, Japan, etc... and when they are told to stay home, wear a mask, socially distance, for the most part they will do it for the collective group, rather than rally against it because of "personal freedoms".

- Masks. This goes with the above point but I don't think can be overstated. It was well under control in comparison because of the early testing and contact tracing, so the starting point was lower but there was a noticeable dip in the numbers everywhere when masks went from "recommended" to "mandatory". We do still have people fighting against it but the group is small, and the compliance rate is very high.

I really think that's all the difference. 

---

I've deliberately posted almost all objective facts and I don't care to debate it, the numbers really speak for themselves. Just providing some context from north of the wall.

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

[The Commish 13,410]

12 minutes ago, Northern Voice said:

This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the States. 

Since people are talking Michigan, let's start there:

On July 29, the date there is last complete data for both Michigan had twice as many more new cases (996) than the entire country of Canada (476).

The population of Michigan is roughly 10 million, the population of Canada is roughly 38 million.

The biggest hot spot remaining in Canada is Windsor, which borders Michigan.

----

90% of the Canadian population lives with 100 miles of the United States border. 

----

In terms of countries, the United States has about 10x the population of Canada. The United States had 68,543 new cases yesterday, Canada had 476.

----

Canadians and Americans are basically the same people, particularly near the border. People in British Columbia and Washington State are no different. People in Southern Ontario and in New York are no different. People in Quebec and people in Vermont are maybe a bit different but same basic conditions, same population density (yes, Canada has a huge mass of land but again, 90% of people live in a small area near the United States border.

---

That the differences between the two countries in terms of numbers and response are so wide is stunning to me. 

---

So what was different in Canada? I don't know but here is what my observations would be.

- We had access to at will, on demand testing very early - whether you had any symptoms/close contact or not, drive thru tests were available and contact tracing for positive results as a result was, I believe, months ahead of the United States. I know that the "test less" notion is more recent in the United States but "test more, earlier" was what happened in Canada. 

- The Canadian population as a whole (painting with a broad brush and there are exceptions) is more submissive, like European countries, Korea, Japan, etc... and when they are told to stay home, wear a mask, socially distance, for the most part they will do it for the collective group, rather than rally against it because of "personal freedoms".

- Masks. This goes with the above point but I don't think can be overstated. It was well under control in comparison because of the early testing and contact tracing, so the starting point was lower but there was a noticeable dip in the numbers everywhere when masks went from "recommended" to "mandatory". We do still have people fighting against it but the group is small, and the compliance rate is very high.

I really think that's all the difference. 

---

I've deliberately posted almost all objective facts and I don't care to debate it, the numbers really speak for themselves. Just providing some context from north of the wall.

Can't really disagree with any of this.  We are who we knew we were  

[Ruffrodys05 1,745]

2 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

You completely missed his point. Bravo.

[The Commish 13,410]

4 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

Pretty confident that wasn't close to being his point.  That said, is this much different than all the  about how "great" America is than all these other countries?  Ignoring of course the "stats" being used being complete apples to oranges.  Seems like the same coin, different side  

Edited July 31, 2020 by The Commish

[supermike80 1,430]

1 minute ago, Ruffrodys05 said:

You completely missed his point. Bravo.

Yeah I know.  Canada is great we aren't even though Canada is exactly the same as the US.  We screwed everything up, Canada did it all wonderfully.  We are a terrible country, Canada is fantastic.

See this multiple times on this board. It gets old and eventually starts to bug me.

And I know, folks like sho will come here and say "Well make American better"   Yeah yeah...i get super tired hearing, over and over, how terrible my country is.

[SoBeDad 2,243]

Just now, supermike80 said:

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

96 deaths reported today in Miami-Dade county, population of 2.8 million. Some constructive criticism is in order.

[Northern Voice 10,027]

3 minutes ago, Ruffrodys05 said:

6 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

You completely missed his point. Bravo.

There's no chance he actually read it, if he came away from it thinking I was American.

[Dickies 9,331]

8 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

What the hell are you talking about?

[supermike80 1,430]

Just now, Northern Voice said:

There's no chance he actually read it, if he came away from it thinking I was American.

You said "But if I was American"  So i kinda figured you weren't.   ??????

[Juxtatarot 11,191]

7 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

We can learn lessons from other countries that have handled it better.  I think that's extremely important since this pandemic isn't close to being over.

[Northern Voice 10,027]

1 minute ago, supermike80 said:

2 minutes ago, Northern Voice said:

There's no chance he actually read it, if he came away from it thinking I was American.

You said "But if I was American"  So i kinda figured you weren't.   ??????

You responded to me with a diatribe about people posting about how "my country sucks, etc..." (probably as an attempt to derail/deflect, which ends after this post). My post was clearly not that, it was how well my country has done. The only way it could be interpreted as "my country sucks" is if I were American.

[yak651 1,044]

10 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

WOW, that's what you took from his post??  What I took is Canada handled it differently and they have had much fewer cases.  MAYBE if we would've handled it differently we would be in a different position.  They (Canada) took it serious, we (US) didn't.

[Mile High 5,115]

Just now, yak651 said:

WOW, that's what you took from his post??  What I took is Canada handled it differently and they have had much fewer cases.  MAYBE if we would've handled it differently we would be in a different position.  They (Canada) took it serious, we (US) didn't.

Exactly. You are what your record says you are.

[dkp993 6,999]

2 hours ago, supermike80 said:

Yeah i don't agree.  People gathering at parties and weddings and other large get togethers are whats driving it..  Not the mom and pop restaurant that has every other table closed and all employees wearing masks.

You are completely wrong.

So the bolded is my business, weddings, I can tell you there first hand this is not the case.  California has not been allowing weddings or other parties for 4 months and the numbers have been spiking.  

[supermike80 1,430]

1 minute ago, Northern Voice said:

You responded to me with a diatribe about people posting about how "my country sucks, etc..." (probably as an attempt to derail/deflect, which ends after this post). My post was clearly not that, it was how well my country has done. The only way it could be interpreted as "my country sucks" is if I were American.

If youre new to this board, I can understand your reply.  If you have been here a while, the "America sucks compared to everyone else" is a strong theme here and it bugs me.
Sorry I vented on you...i just dont know why people hate this country so much here

[yak651 1,044]

So WI governor issued a mask mandate starting tomorrow, August 1st.  My facebook feed is blowing up with people how he should be recalled, this can't be enforced, it's my right, bla bla bla.  I get WI isn't a hot spot, I hate wearing mask also, but dang people look around this is not a hoax.  I hate to see what happened to Herman Cain, but you think it would at least open some eyes, nope....

[supermike80 1,430]

3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

So the bolded is my business, weddings, I can tell you there first hand this is not the case.  California has not been allowing weddings or other parties for 4 months and the numbers have been spiking.  

Seriously?  That's your reply?  I swear on my life I don't understand why you guys do that.

That wasnt the ONLY example.  People gather at parties, etc etc.   Ugh..Why?  Why does this happen here?

[KarmaPolice 16,009]

2 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

If youre new to this board, I can understand your reply.  If you have been here a while, the "America sucks compared to everyone else" is a strong theme here and it bugs me.
Sorry I vented on you...i just dont know why people hate this country so much here

Being critical of something <> hating something.    I am sure you could think of things that we do worse here than other countries.  Doesn't mean it's a crap country.  

 

[dkp993 6,999]

Just now, supermike80 said:

Seriously?  That's your reply?  I swear on my life I don't understand why you guys do that.

That wasnt the ONLY example.  People gather at parties, etc etc.   Ugh..Why?  Why does this happen here?

Relax Mike, YOU are the one that mentioned Weddings, as it’s my business and life I have first hand in depth knowledge about that across 5 states so I replied to to that.  If you have an issue with people replying to topics you bring up don’t bring up the topics.  

[KarmaPolice 16,009]

5 minutes ago, yak651 said:

So WI governor issued a mask mandate starting tomorrow, August 1st.  My facebook feed is blowing up with people how he should be recalled, this can't be enforced, it's my right, bla bla bla.  I get WI isn't a hot spot, I hate wearing mask also, but dang people look around this is not a hoax.  I hate to see what happened to Herman Cain, but you think it would at least open some eyes, nope....

We aren't?  It's been a bit, but when I looked a few weeks ago the Madison area and LaCrosse area were seeing quite a % rise.  

[Dickies 9,331]

9 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

If youre new to this board, I can understand your reply.  If you have been here a while, the "America sucks compared to everyone else" is a strong theme here and it bugs me.
Sorry I vented on you...i just dont know why people hate this country so much here

He never said America sucks. In fact he went out of his way to say that we are the same.

When other countries do specific things much better than us, it’s always struck me as odd that a large percentage of our population takes pride in it rather than trying to emulate the success. 

[[scooter] 14,071]

25 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

54 minutes ago, timschochet said:

In the hearings going on right now Jacobs is relentlessly attacking Dr. Fauci, bringing up violent protests in Portland (apparently these are the main reason for the spread of the virus). 

Any data to back up those claims?

No. Very few of Oregon's cases can be traced to the protests (link). Most of the spiking has been traced to workplace outbreaks. In fact, the highest case rate in the state is in rural Umatilla County, where 1 in 40 people have contracted the virus; they've had virtually zero protesting in the county (it's very, very red), and their outbreaks have been traced to workplaces and churches.

Portland, on the other hand, has had just 1-in-191 people contract the virus.

For comparison, the home county of Rep. Jim Jordan (who was grilling Fauci today) has had 1-in-198 people contract the virus.

[yak651 1,044]

15 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

We aren't?  It's been a bit, but when I looked a few weeks ago the Madison area and LaCrosse area were seeing quite a % rise.  

I guess I'm insulated a little bit in NE WI, so don't consider it a hot spot as not hearing the hospitalizations or deaths.  I understand the importance of taking this seriously, unfortunately I think it's going to take a major spike in this area of the state - including many hospitalizations - for these people to understand this is real.

[sho nuff 16,560]

35 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Yeah I know.  Canada is great we aren't even though Canada is exactly the same as the US.  We screwed everything up, Canada did it all wonderfully.  We are a terrible country, Canada is fantastic.

See this multiple times on this board. It gets old and eventually starts to bug me.

And I know, folks like sho will come here and say "Well make American better"   Yeah yeah...i get super tired hearing, over and over, how terrible my country is.

Perhaps what should bug you...is that other countries handled this way better than we did.

Also...don't do this...just petty and ridiculousl

[timschochet 33,330]

4 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

No. Very few of Oregon's cases can be traced to the protests (link). Most of the spiking has been traced to workplace outbreaks. In fact, the highest case rate in the state is in rural Umatilla County, where 1 in 40 people have contracted the virus; they've had virtually zero protesting in the county (it's very, very red), and their outbreaks have been traced to workplaces and churches.

Portland, on the other hand, has had just 1-in-191 people contract the virus.

For comparison, the home county of Rep. Jim Jordan (who was grilling Fauci today) has had 1-in-198 people contract the virus.

I meant Jordan when I wrote Jacobs. Sorry about that 

[Lutherman2112 2,129]

22 hours ago, supermike80 said:

Awe....I also said not in this thread.  But yeah, I troll at times.  🙂  Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

 

Awe:  noun or verb. overwhelming sense of wonder. The noun refers to the feeling. The verb refers to the action feeling awe.

Awww: exclamation of pity, or appreciation of cuteness or sweetness

If you are going to troll, at least use the correct words.

[timschochet 33,330]

28 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

If youre new to this board, I can understand your reply.  If you have been here a while, the "America sucks compared to everyone else" is a strong theme here and it bugs me.
Sorry I vented on you...i just dont know why people hate this country so much here

I believe that the United States is the greatest country on Earth and in human history. I’m prepared to back that opinion up to anyone who wants to take issue with it. 
 

But guess what? We’re handling this virus terribly. Much worse than most other countries on Earth, far worse than Canada. That’s the reality. Start dealing with it, and stop hiding behind “I hate it when people talk bad about America.” It’s not true. 

[Green Balloons 496]

Just heard a guy call in to a radio show that said "you notice how the media doesn't show anybody that's actually sick?" 

So approaching 700k deaths worldwide yet this guy still thinks it's a hoax.   We're doomed but most of you already know that. 

[sho nuff 16,560]

1 minute ago, Green Balloons said:

Just heard a guy call in to a radio show that said "you notice how the media doesn't show anybody that's actually sick?" 

So approaching 700k deaths worldwide yet this guy still thinks it's a hoax.   We're doomed but most of you already know that. 

Does he expect news channels to be walking around hospital ICU's in violation of HIPAA?

[Green Balloons 496]

1 minute ago, sho nuff said:

Does he expect news channels to be walking around hospital ICU's in violation of HIPAA?

To the host's credit, he said something similar. Of course, because he likes Trump and you can't say anything bad about Trump, wouldn't go as far to tell the caller to get his head out of his Clavin. 

[Juxtatarot 11,191]

We would be a better country if constructive criticism was viewed as patriotic and blind, emotional defense was viewed as harmful.

[The Commish 13,410]

9 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

We would be a better country if constructive criticism was viewed as patriotic and blind, emotional defense was viewed as harmful.

And we learned to be comfortable in disagreement.

[apalmer 5,777]

2 hours ago, supermike80 said:

 

And I know, folks like sho will come here and say "Well make American better"   Yeah yeah...i get super tired hearing, over and over, how terrible my country is.

I'm with you--I hate people who insist they're going to make America great again, as if it isn't and/or hasn't always been.  

[Gr00vus 11,823]

We would be a better subforum if we ignored the self admitted trolls.

[renesauz 2,975]

3 hours ago, supermike80 said:

I wonder how many times we will get the "America sucks compared to THIS country" posted here.  What is the driving force behind this? Do you all just LOVE to talk about how much your country sucks or potentially sucks?  Does that some how make you feel better?

Man I don't get that.  

And I don't get how so many people assume and insist that America is THE BESTEST at EVERY single thing, and that we can NEVER learn ANYTHING from how another country does something. In the grand scheme of things, which attitude is more dangerous?

[GroveDiesel 9,082]

Wow. If this is all true, Kushner should not only resign, he should be imprisoned. Intentionally doing nothing and allowing people to die in an attempt to blame Democrats is beyond disgusting. That would be straight up crimes against humanity type stuff.