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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

President Elect Biden: our darkest days of the COVID Crisis are ahead of us, not behind us. 

Not good to hear, but it’s at least refreshing that a leader is being honest. California’s hospital beds are at 98% capacity. We need to tighten up, not loosen, our restrictions. 

We've been told that for months.  FWIW  :(

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This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the

Australia has had months of little to no community spread and even then it was confined to one state. By and large Australians are running around doing the right thing, sport was and is still hap

I am confident we are going to hit >750K deaths.  I think it might be a million.  I don't post a ton but I'm an ER doc in a big city. This is by far the worse I've seen since the pandemic star

2 hours ago, timschochet said:

President Elect Biden: our darkest days of the COVID Crisis are ahead of us, not behind us. 

Not good to hear, but it’s at least refreshing that a leader is being honest. California’s hospital beds are at 98% capacity. We need to tighten up, not loosen, our restrictions. 

Doesn't CA already have some of the tightest restrictions in the country? What further restrictions would you propose?

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4 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Doesn't CA already have some of the tightest restrictions in the country? What further restrictions would you propose?

Police need to issue tickets to those who don’t wear masks or don’t distance. If that doesn’t work arrest them. Enforce the curfew. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

Police need to issue tickets to those who don’t wear masks or don’t distance. If that doesn’t work arrest them. Enforce the curfew. 

 

1 hour ago, timschochet said:

And if that doesn’t work issue a stay at home order shutting down all non essential businesses. Shut down all travel between counties.  I don’t see that we have any choice. 

 

So . . . martial law?

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

President Elect Biden: our darkest days of the COVID Crisis are ahead of us, not behind us. 

Not good to hear, but it’s at least refreshing that a leader is being honest. California’s hospital beds are at 98% capacity. We need to tighten up, not loosen, our restrictions. 

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=joe-biden

Latest False Fact-checks on Joe Biden:

 

Joe Biden stated on October 25, 2020 in a "60 Minutes" interview: “I can send every qualified person to a four-year college in their state for $150 billion.”

 

Joe Biden stated on October 15, 2020 in a town hall: “The boilermakers union has endorsed me because I sat down with them and went into great detail with leadership [about] exactly what I would do.”

 

Joe Biden stated on October 15, 2020 in an ABC town hall: "They eliminated the funding for community policing."

 

Joe Biden stated on October 10, 2020 in a comment to reporters: Senate Republicans' move to confirm Judge Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court in an election year is "not constitutional."

 

Joe Biden stated on October 5, 2020 in an NBC town hall in Miami: During the Obama/Biden administration “18,000 people got clemency.”

 

Joe Biden stated on September 20, 2020 in a speech: “The Trump campaign asked that I release the list (of potential Supreme Court nominees) only after (Ruth Bader Ginsburg) passed away.”

 

Joe Biden stated on September 20, 2020 in a speech in Philadelphia: “There's no court session between now and the end of this election.”

 

Joe Biden stated on September 17, 2020 in a CNN town hall: "If the president had done his job, had done his job from the beginning, all the people would still be alive. All the people. I'm not making this up. Just look at the data."

 

Joe Biden stated on September 9, 2020 in a speech in Warren, Mich.: “Military COVID infected: 118,984. Military COVID deaths: 6,114.”

 

Joe Biden stated on September 2, 2020 in a speech in Wilmington, Del.: Says he was the first person to call for invoking the Defense Production Act.

 

Joe Biden stated on July 22, 2020 in a SEIU roundtable discussion: “McDonald’s (makes) you all sign noncompete contracts that you cannot go across town to try to get a job at Burger King.”


 

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Joe Biden stated on July 22, 2020 in a town hall: No U.S. presidents elected before Donald Trump were racist.

 

Joe Biden stated on May 21, 2020 in a video: "You weren't allowed to own a cannon during the Revolutionary War as an individual."

 

Joe Biden stated on May 22, 2020 in an interview on The Breakfast Club radio show: “The NAACP has endorsed me every time I've run.”

 

Joe Biden stated on March 15, 2020 in a debate: Because the Federal Reserve recently cut interest rates to near 0%, “the Fed will be of little consequence now. They’ve already used what leverage they have.”

 

Joe Biden stated on March 3, 2020 in a tweeted video: Video shows President Donald Trump saying COVID-19 is Democrats’ “new hoax.”

 

Joe Biden stated on February 7, 2020 in comments during the New Hampshire presidential primary debate: Sanders’ “Medicare for All” plan "would cost more than the entire federal budget that we spend now."

 

Joe Biden stated on September 12, 2019 in a Democratic debate: Says the Obama administration "didn't lock people up in cages."

 

Joe Biden stated on September 3, 2019 in an NPR interview: Referring to the Iraq War, "immediately, the moment it started, I came out against the war at that moment."

 

Joe Biden stated on August 7, 2019 in a campaign stop in Iowa: Says Donald Trump "asserted that immigrants would quote, ‘carve you up with a knife’."  

 

Joe Biden stated on May 1, 2019 in an interview: "I was always labeled as one of the most liberal members of the United States Congress."

 

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Joe Biden stated on July 27, 2016 in an appearance on MSNBC: Says Donald Trump "is going to go out and carpet bomb" the Middle East.

 

Joe Biden stated on April 29, 2016 in a speech at the Vatican: "In the United States alone we lose more than 3,000 people a day to cancer."

 

Joe Biden stated on May 8, 2012 in a speech: "When we took office, let me remind you, there was virtually no international pressure on Iran."

 

Joe Biden stated on April 1, 2012 in a “Face the Nation” interview: "General Motors is the largest corporation in the world again."

 

Joe Biden stated on August 30, 2011 in remarks at a campaign fundraiser: Says U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget proposal "eliminates Medicare" in 10 years.

 

Joe Biden stated on January 17, 2010 in a fundraiser in Florida: "As long as I have served . . . This is the first time every single solitary decision has required 60 senators."

 

Joe Biden stated on December 31, 2007 in a campaign event in Ames, Iowa: "John doesn't have a record in the Senate. John's only passed four bills. They're all about post offices."

 

Joe Biden stated on December 31, 2007 in a campaign event in Ames, Iowa: "Barack Obama hasn't passed any (bills)."

 

Joe Biden stated on November 2, 2007 in statement on Web site: "In the 1990s, the Biden Crime Bill added 100,000 cops to America's streets. As a result, murder and violent crime rates went down eight years in a row."

 

Joe Biden stated on September 26, 2007 in Hanover, N.H.: "There are 300,000 babies born deformed every year in this country because of women who are alcoholics while they're carrying those children to term."

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22 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

 

 

So . . . martial law?

Since when is enforcing laws equal to martial law?

Do we issue fines for public nudity?  Tickets for speeding?  Punishments for drunk driving?  None of those things strike me as martial law.  Why is this different?

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2 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Never. Why? What does that have to do with Tim's responses?

This: "Police need to issue tickets to those who don’t wear masks or don’t distance. If that doesn’t work arrest them. Enforce the curfew.". ... Seems a lot like enforcing laws.

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36 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

 

 

So . . . martial law?

How does Australia or the UK or Ireland enforce their stay at home orders?

I have an Irish friend that told me that police were asking for proof of address at road checkpoints since citizens weren't allowed to travel more than a few km from their house. 

This was back in April though. 

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Ontario is "locking down" starting on Dec.26 for 4 weeks in Southern Ontario, and 2 weeks in Northern Ontario.  Seems like essentials remain open, restaurants closed except take out, and a bunch of other rules.  

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4 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

Since when is enforcing laws equal to martial law?

Do we issue fines for public nudity?  Tickets for speeding?  Punishments for drunk driving?  None of those things strike me as martial law.  Why is this different?

If they started arresting people for not wearing masks, that would be pretty funny considering the recent push to let all other minor crimes like that go unpunished.

 

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The entire country has tried half measures for 9 months and people are frankly sick of it.  A strict lockdown wouldn't be  martial law, it would be a stay at home quarantine, which is just common sense in a pandemic.  

The issue with this is that the USA is a huge country, states all do their own thing, few are actually doing lockdowns, and no one is actually doing anything like martial law.

The first lockdown worked in March/April whenever it was.  We stopped and since then nothing that's been done has worked, including masks which honestly aren't doing all that much at this point (perhaps this country isn't as bad as it otherwise would be, but everywhere I go people are masked up and my state is the worst per capita in the country)

The only thing that really works is a strict lockdown, which is what most successful countries do, which the USA doesn't do.  Whose fault is that?  Perhaps its Trump's, or it's just the way it works in the USA with each state making their own rules (or in some states it's left to the actual cities), or it's the media, or it's the CDC..who knows. 

The point is, a strict lockdown is the only thing that would have worked.  Now we're just waiting for the vaccine to bail us out because i don't even think a strict lockdown would work anymore, because many people won't stay home, many aren't scared, and the gov't is scared to implement anything strict.

To be honest, martial law in April for 2 months (and the closing of all international borders) would have been great.  But it didn't happen and here we are.

 

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This is kind of scary to read

In one of the most shocking moral misjudgments by a public body I have ever seen, the CDC invoked considerations of “social justice” to recommend providing vaccinations to essential workers before older Americans even though this would, according to its own models, lead to a much greater death toll. 

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An interesting comparison came up in a throwaway Facebook comment I saw today. South Dakota is currently having a major snow storm with several major accidents because of road conditions. Some people were questioning why the roads, specifically the interstates, weren’t closed yet. And someone said ‘Noem doesn’t want to kill the economy’.

Likely just a joke comment but could you imagine state leaders keeping roads open with dangerous conditions and justifying it with the need to keep businesses open. Hey, some vehicles can probably make it through and if I want to take that chance, the government should let me. Plus if I do get stuck or in an accident, what are the chances I would die from it?

Sure you’ll get people that go around barriers, but there has never been a movement or even a consideration to stop closing roads during snow storms. Why would a pandemic be anything different?

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8 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

This is kind of scary to read

In one of the most shocking moral misjudgments by a public body I have ever seen, the CDC invoked considerations of “social justice” to recommend providing vaccinations to essential workers before older Americans even though this would, according to its own models, lead to a much greater death toll. 

There are good/reasonable arguments for prioritizing essential workers over the elderly.  The racial composition of the dead is not one of them.  It's been interesting to watch "public health officials" set their credibility on fire in real time as this pandemic has played out.

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5 hours ago, Biff84 said:

An interesting comparison came up in a throwaway Facebook comment I saw today. South Dakota is currently having a major snow storm with several major accidents because of road conditions. Some people were questioning why the roads, specifically the interstates, weren’t closed yet. And someone said ‘Noem doesn’t want to kill the economy’.

Likely just a joke comment but could you imagine state leaders keeping roads open with dangerous conditions and justifying it with the need to keep businesses open. Hey, some vehicles can probably make it through and if I want to take that chance, the government should let me. Plus if I do get stuck or in an accident, what are the chances I would die from it?

Sure you’ll get people that go around barriers, but there has never been a movement or even a consideration to stop closing roads during snow storms. Why would a pandemic be anything different?

Were these people from florida? 

If my governor closed the roads the day before xmas for less than 3 inches of snow he would be recalled. 

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5 hours ago, Biff84 said:

An interesting comparison came up in a throwaway Facebook comment I saw today. South Dakota is currently having a major snow storm with several major accidents because of road conditions. Some people were questioning why the roads, specifically the interstates, weren’t closed yet. And someone said ‘Noem doesn’t want to kill the economy’.

Likely just a joke comment but could you imagine state leaders keeping roads open with dangerous conditions and justifying it with the need to keep businesses open. Hey, some vehicles can probably make it through and if I want to take that chance, the government should let me. Plus if I do get stuck or in an accident, what are the chances I would die from it?

Sure you’ll get people that go around barriers, but there has never been a movement or even a consideration to stop closing roads during snow storms. Why would a pandemic be anything different?

roads are closed for a day or two.

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3 hours ago, GordonGekko said:

 

“The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see.”
― Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead

I appreciate the self awareness in this acknowledgement :thumbup:

Good, you’ve pinpointed it. Step two is washing it out.  -Ray Zalinsky, Tommyboy

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This is so infuriating. Not sure why public health officials and epidemiologists continue to think they fully understand the human psyche and that modifying information in order to try and alter human response is ok. 

That isnt their lane at all. Which just further shoots the "trust the experts" theme right in the foot. 

If you are going to tell people they have to listen to you, then you cant just misdirect them based on gut feeling of what you think they are ready to hear. 

 

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22 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

This is so infuriating. Not sure why public health officials and epidemiologists continue to think they fully understand the human psyche and that modifying information in order to try and alter human response is ok. 

That isnt their lane at all. Which just further shoots the "trust the experts" theme right in the foot. 

If you are going to tell people they have to listen to you, then you cant just misdirect them based on gut feeling of what you think they are ready to hear. 

 

The article did also say he was revising his herd immunity estimates based on the latest findings (particularly the more transmisible strain identified in the UK).

Measles needs such a high vaccination rate due to the crazy high R0 (like 13-15 as I recall). Regular COVID-19 is like 3, but this new strain might be closer to 5. The other factor is that super spreader clusters are a much bigger factor in COVID-19 than other viruses. That means vaccination rate must go up as well in order to reach those super spreaders before they become active.

There's no reason for him not to revise his scientific guidance based on the most recent science.  However, I agree that trying to manipulate human psychology to get bigger acceptance isn't the best plan.  But maybe he was just trying to manage the psychology of one human, and not the entire nation. 

Have other public health officials from other countries done the same thing? What does the Canadian public health system leader say on the topic of herd immunity and has that changed since the Spring. I bet it has. 

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16 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

The article did also say he was revising his herd immunity estimates based on the latest findings (particularly the more transmisible strain identified in the UK).

Measles needs such a high vaccination rate due to the crazy high R0 (like 13-15 as I recall). Regular COVID-19 is like 3, but this new strain might be closer to 5. The other factor is that super spreader clusters are a much bigger factor in COVID-19 than other viruses. That means vaccination rate must go up as well in order to reach those super spreaders before they become active.

There's no reason for him not to revise his scientific guidance based on the most recent science.  However, I agree that trying to manipulate human psychology to get bigger acceptance isn't the best plan.  But maybe he was just trying to manage the psychology of one human, and not the entire nation. 

Have other public health officials from other countries done the same thing? What does the Canadian public health system leader say on the topic of herd immunity and has that changed since the Spring. I bet it has. 

 

In a telephone interview the next day, Dr. Fauci acknowledged that he had slowly but deliberately been moving the goal posts. He is doing so, he said, partly based on new science, and partly on his gut feeling that the country is finally ready to hear what he really thinks.

 

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

There are good/reasonable arguments for prioritizing essential workers over the elderly.  The racial composition of the dead is not one of them.  It's been interesting to watch "public health officials" set their credibility on fire in real time as this pandemic has played out.

Yeah, altering public health recommendations to advance other agendas hasn’t been met with nearly the criticism it should have so far.

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14 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

In a telephone interview the next day, Dr. Fauci acknowledged that he had slowly but deliberately been moving the goal posts. He is doing so, he said, partly based on new science, and partly on his gut feeling that the country is finally ready to hear what he really thinks.

I'm torn on this one.  Yes, it sounds awful.  Yes, there's a presumption that our health experts should be giving us the science and nothing but the science.  However, I honestly believe that Fauci in particular has held back publicly on much of what he really believes due to fear of being summarily fired, thus creating an even worse (i.e. less based on science) public message by his replacement.

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24 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

 

In a telephone interview the next day, Dr. Fauci acknowledged that he had slowly but deliberately been moving the goal posts. He is doing so, he said, partly based on new science, and partly on his gut feeling that the country is finally ready to hear what he really thinks.

 

Hence my use of the word "also" in my first sentence. 

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1 hour ago, Rich Conway said:

I'm torn on this one.  Yes, it sounds awful.  Yes, there's a presumption that our health experts should be giving us the science and nothing but the science.  However, I honestly believe that Fauci in particular has held back publicly on much of what he really believes due to fear of being summarily fired, thus creating an even worse (i.e. less based on science) public message by his replacement.

Who cares if he gets fired. If he’s a scientist or a health expert, he needs to relay the truth. One more of an endless array of massive failures by health officials.  If he gets fired, he could presumably go on cnn and launch a massive media push without fear of losing his job and it would be one more nail in the coffin for how the Trump admin has handled this.

Because let’s face it, what has Fauci really done?  He’s the main talking head in a country that has handled this disastrously.  If he’s fired, so what?

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2 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

This is so infuriating. Not sure why public health officials and epidemiologists continue to think they fully understand the human psyche and that modifying information in order to try and alter human response is ok. 

That isnt their lane at all. Which just further shoots the "trust the experts" theme right in the foot. 

If you are going to tell people they have to listen to you, then you cant just misdirect them based on gut feeling of what you think they are ready to hear. 

 

It’s an absolute joke that no real plan is out there.  What is the plan?  If it’s 90% vaccination, they need to say it. If it’s a combination of 90% recovered + vaccination, say it and back it up with science.
 

There literally isn’t a plan except “stay home” and wait for vaccines that we “think” might work for some undetermined period of time, meanwhile I saw that 1 million people flew on planes so far this week.  
 

So yeah, Fauci/govt/health officials have lost the confidence of the public, which just leads to more confusion for those trying to do the right thing and a segment of the population that literally doesn’t take this seriously anymore. 

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Watch the whole thing when you get a few extra minutes.

Good watch here on COVID in Michigan and how the data and deaths are being reported. Charlie is pretty liberal overall and it makes you wonder if we can ever trust our local governments.

This is from an investigative reporter from Metro-Detroit.  Charlie LeDuff has been a pain in the rear to the automotive and many other big business, companies, and local politicians exposing their dirty secrets.  

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21 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

Since when is enforcing laws equal to martial law?

Do we issue fines for public nudity?  Tickets for speeding?  Punishments for drunk driving?  None of those things strike me as martial law.  Why is this different?

Because forcing someone into a mask can be a health risk to that person.  That's why we have medical exemptions.

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20 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

Watch the whole thing when you get a few extra minutes.

Good watch here on COVID in Michigan and how the data and deaths are being reported. Charlie is pretty liberal overall and it makes you wonder if we can ever trust our local governments.

This is from an investigative reporter from Metro-Detroit.  Charlie LeDuff has been a pain in the rear to the automotive and many other big business, companies, and local politicians exposing their dirty secrets.  

Not really surprising, most states have delays in reporting with varying degrees of transparency. The guy I follow for AZ data does a pretty good job pointing out that it’s deaths reported in the last 24 hours, not deaths that happened. He also reports if a large number of the deaths are older while showing graphs of actual dates of the deaths and cases.

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1 hour ago, shader said:

 

Because let’s face it, what has Fauci really done?  He’s the main talking head in a country that has handled this disastrously.  If he’s fired, so what?

Couldn’t disagree more with this. From everything I’ve read and seen, Dr. Fauci, while not perfect, is the main hero among many in public health this year. If only the White House had listened to him. 

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51 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Because forcing someone into a mask can be a health risk to that person.  That's why we have medical exemptions.

You’ve said this before. I haven’t heard about any. I think at most you’re talking about an extreme minority, tiny. Not enough to take into account when dividing general restrictions. 

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11 hours ago, Biff84 said:

An interesting comparison came up in a throwaway Facebook comment I saw today. South Dakota is currently having a major snow storm with several major accidents because of road conditions. Some people were questioning why the roads, specifically the interstates, weren’t closed yet. And someone said ‘Noem doesn’t want to kill the economy’.

Likely just a joke comment but could you imagine state leaders keeping roads open with dangerous conditions and justifying it with the need to keep businesses open. Hey, some vehicles can probably make it through and if I want to take that chance, the government should let me. Plus if I do get stuck or in an accident, what are the chances I would die from it?

Sure you’ll get people that go around barriers, but there has never been a movement or even a consideration to stop closing roads during snow storms. Why would a pandemic be anything different?

I live in South Dakota.  We do occasionally shut down interstates due to weather.  Yesterday's blizzard didn't rise to that level.

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31 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’ve said this before. I haven’t heard about any. I think at most you’re talking about an extreme minority, tiny. Not enough to take into account when dividing general restrictions. 

That response really doesn't answer Rich's question, but what RW says is true....some severe asthmatic patients and COPD patients have had complications from attempting to wear masks.  Of course those are in the "one in 100,000" sort of frequency but they exist.  I continue to not understand why we don't apply the 80/20 rule in cases like this instead of presenting the minority as the norm.

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:
22 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

Since when is enforcing laws equal to martial law?

Do we issue fines for public nudity?  Tickets for speeding?  Punishments for drunk driving?  None of those things strike me as martial law.  Why is this different?

Because forcing someone into a mask can be a health risk to that person.  That's why we have medical exemptions.

OK, and?  We also don't ticket fire engines for speeding when they are en route to a fire.  This response has literally nothing to do with my post or the question.

Separately, I'll have to ask for proof of your claim, bolded.

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53 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I live in South Dakota.  We do occasionally shut down interstates due to weather.  Yesterday's blizzard didn't rise to that level.

Right, I lived most of life there. My point isn’t if it should have been shut down yesterday but that it would be ridiculous to argue to keep roads open during a blizzard for economic reasons or to allow for people’s personal choices.

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50 minutes ago, The Commish said:

That response really doesn't answer Rich's question, but what RW says is true....some severe asthmatic patients and COPD patients have had complications from attempting to wear masks.  Of course those are in the "one in 100,000" sort of frequency but they exist.  I continue to not understand why we don't apply the 80/20 rule in cases like this instead of presenting the minority as the norm.

@Ramblin Wreck has made this argument several times to justify no mask restrictions whatsoever. It’s ridiculous IMO. 

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3 hours ago, shader said:

The Birx stuff, where she’s goes to see her parents over thanksgiving, is equally as infuriating. These two have really destroyed their reputations haven’t they. 

Birx, yes. Although she had a checkered reputation before this pandemic. 

Fauci, I disagree that his reputation is shot, and think you're making way too much out of this herd immunity change in prediction. 

Also, he was prevented by the white house quite a bit from talking to the press while at the same time but being consulted as a scientific advisor if the task force. 

Could have it been handled better? Yes, that's obvious, but I didn't think the was a good way to thread the needle of being 100% forthright, influencing government policy toward science and away from the crazies, and the evolving knowledge of the virus and epidemiology.   You seem to want perfection, and I just don't think that is / was possible here. 

 

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

Couldn’t disagree more with this. From everything I’ve read and seen, Dr. Fauci, while not perfect, is the main hero among many in public health this year. If only the White House had listened to him. 

He’s been wrong so many times it’s not funny.  What has he done that makes him a hero? Seriously?  Being on cnn a lot?  

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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

Birx, yes. Although she had a checkered reputation before this pandemic. 

Fauci, I disagree that his reputation is shot, and think you're making way too much out of this herd immunity change in prediction. 

Also, he was prevented by the white house quite a bit from talking to the press while at the same time but being consulted as a scientific advisor if the task force. 

Could have it been handled better? Yes, that's obvious, but I didn't think the was a good way to thread the needle of being 100% forthright, influencing government policy toward science and away from the crazies, and the evolving knowledge of the virus and epidemiology.   You seem to want perfection, and I just don't think that is / was possible here. 

 

Fauci: cruises are fine!  https://www.forbes.com/sites/douggollan/2020/03/09/fauci-says-cruising-is-ok-if-you-are-healthy/?sh=7764f4e42d4d
 

Fauci flip flopped on school openings

Fauci said in March that masks weren’t needed

I’m not even going to keep this up. A google search has so much info it’s astounding and I don’t have time right now to link them all, but look yourself.  He’s been a total failure.  The fact that he encourages people to take this seriously doesn’t make him a hero, the entire world is taking this seriously.

Im sorry if I’m so negative, but I just don’t think anyone in the USA can be called “heroic” other than front line nurses and doctors hanging in there and hoping it will end.  I’m certainly not going to praise anyone setting policy or any media figures on this one. It’s been an epic disaster.

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13 minutes ago, shader said:

... fact that he encourages people to take this seriously doesn’t make him a hero, the entire world is taking this seriously.

The entire world is not taking this seriously, given that a very significant portion of the US is not taking it seriously.

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I for one am shocked that people's thoughts towards this virus have changed since March...shocked!!!

It's almost like more information and data is available that could change what we really know since it was a novel virus.  How dare people not follow what they thought 9 months ago....

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