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The only time I've been asked to cover my nose is on airplanes. Then 5 minutes later they pass out cookies and water and every single person on the plane takes their mask off at the same time.  :loco:

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Australia has had months of little to no community spread and even then it was confined to one state. By and large Australians are running around doing the right thing, sport was and is still hap

This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the

I am confident we are going to hit >750K deaths.  I think it might be a million.  I don't post a ton but I'm an ER doc in a big city. This is by far the worse I've seen since the pandemic star

23 minutes ago, John123 said:

Just gonna put this here, since there's this attitude on this forum that Trump did so poorly handling the Covid crisis.  The following article details comments Fauci's boss made about the Trump administration.:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/540408-faucis-boss-praises-trump-for-breathtaking

Operation Warp Speed is a big win.

There was a lot more he could have/should have done, but everyone involved deserves credit for us having a vaccine in 12 months.  It's unprecedented and will save millions of lives over the next few decades.

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1 minute ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Operation Warp Speed is a big win.

There was a lot more he could have/should have done, but everyone involved deserves credit for us having a vaccine in 12 months.  It's unprecedented and will save millions of lives over the next few decades.

I keep seeing this posted here, but other than the "he said it wasn't a big deal early on", I haven't seen a lot of specifics.  But do you really think ANYONE could have done EVERYTHING perfectly?  Biden was calling Trump a xenophobe when Trump restricted international travel early on.  Pretty much all the Dems were downplaying this thing while Trump had already formed a task force and was working on a vaccine. And no one on this forum gave him credit for beating his timeline for a vaccine.  The only thing they mention re: the timeline is that he didn't meet an optimistic goal for how many people would be vaccinated by the end of the year. 

It's crazy how every little negative thing is amplified by the lefties here, and the positives not even discussed.  And all the critics act like he should have just nailed this thing perfectly and if Biden had been President we'd be so much better off right now. 

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2 hours ago, John123 said:

Just gonna put this here, since there's this attitude on this forum that Trump did so poorly handling the Covid crisis.  The following article details comments Fauci's boss made about the Trump administration.:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/540408-faucis-boss-praises-trump-for-breathtaking

Far cry from "There was no plan when we got into the white house" as Harris and Biden kept repeating.

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4 minutes ago, Insein said:

Far cry from "There was no plan when we got into the white house" as Harris and Biden kept repeating.

That lacking plan was about distribution...which was and still is not going as smooth as it should.

 

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2 hours ago, John123 said:

It's crazy how every little negative thing is amplified by the lefties here, and the positives not even discussed.  And all the critics act like he should have just nailed this thing perfectly and if Biden had been President we'd be so much better off right now. 

I don't expect Trump or Biden or any president to be perfect in a crisis.  I just want them to get out of the way until the experts tell them he is needed for something.  Like pushing wearing a mask.  Especially when the message changes from what was said early on as either information or circumstances change.   I also want a president that shares the credit and takes the blame, 

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30 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

That lacking plan was about distribution...which was and still is not going as smooth as it should.

 

The lacking plan was all encompassing according to Biden and Harris. And there was indeed a plan laid out back on September going over distribution step by step from the CDC. 

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4 hours ago, John123 said:

Just gonna put this here, since there's this attitude on this forum that Trump did so poorly handling the Covid crisis.  The following article details comments Fauci's boss made about the Trump administration.:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/540408-faucis-boss-praises-trump-for-breathtaking

We should just take the win and give major credit to anyone who played a role in getting these vaccines developed so quickly.  It really is an amazing achievement.  IMO it is the best thing Trump's administration accomplished by leaps & bounds, and I truly mean that as a compliment.   Any president should be proud of that. 

How much credit does the Trump Admin deserve for it?  I don't really care.  It got done.  Period.  Amazing.

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Great article 5 Pandemic Mistakes We Keep Repeating

My favorite part.

The theory that things that improve our safety might provide a false sense of security and lead to reckless behavior is attractive—it’s contrarian and clever, and fits the “here’s something surprising we smart folks thought about” mold that appeals to, well, people who think of themselves as smart. Unsurprisingly, such fears have greeted efforts to persuade the public to adopt almost every advance in safety, including seat belts, helmets, and condoms.

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Interesting Twitter thread that summarizes a new CDC study on COVID in elementary schools and risk of community spread.

"TAKEAWAYS: 1. Transmission happens in schools even with mitigation

2. The more layers of mitigation, the more protection against spread when one layer fails

3. Ventilation/filtration is important for mask/distancing mistakes & meals.

4.  Plastic barriers don’t replace distancing & ventilation

5. The more people in a building, the more virus in the air, both because there are more people in a room & more people = higher chance *someone* (or more than one someone!)

Final note: (at least) 14 cases came into the school which resulted in (at least) 63 more cases. Did schools contribute to community spread? Yes. Do family members of students & educators have reason to worry about infection? Yes."

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So assuming that we agree that reopening schools does contribute to community transmission, the questions become: a) is it worth it to increase community transmission for other reasons (mental, physical, social health of students and parents, economic, etc.)? b) how can we mitigate the spread in schools as much as possible?

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On 2/25/2021 at 10:11 PM, tonydead said:

Never cover my nose. Fogs my glasses, cant see and a trip and fall would be more dangerous than the covid.  

As has been pointed out, the mask is not about you. Or in your case, I guess it is, but that is just ego related and not covid related. 

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2 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

As has been pointed out, the mask is not about you. Or in your case, I guess it is, but that is just ego related and not covid related. 

 Trip and fall might hurt others nearby.  Much more dangerous than the covid.  

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18 minutes ago, tonydead said:

 Trip and fall might hurt others nearby.  Much more dangerous than the covid.  

Tell that to the families and friends of the 500,000+ dead in the United States.  How many trip and fall deaths are there per year?

ETA: just looked it up. 40k deaths from unintentional falls. So COVID is 10x more deadly.  You should stop trolling. 

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4 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Tell that to the families and friends of the 500,000+ dead in the United States.  How many trip and fall deaths are there per year?

Like 80,000 under age 65.  I'd cover my nose if I went to an old folks home.  Most people dont have to worry about this flu.  

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

Like 80,000 under age 65.  I'd cover my nose if I went to an old folks home.  Most people dont have to worry about this flu.  

And still COVID is 2x worse, even if you leave off the elderly for COVID but count them for unintentional falls.

Wear a damn mask and protect those you come in contact with. 

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11 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Like 80,000 under age 65.  I'd cover my nose if I went to an old folks home.  Most people dont have to worry about this flu.  

You'll cover your nose on an airplane do or be thrown the f off.

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6 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

And still COVID is 2x worse, even if you leave off the elderly for COVID but count them for unintentional falls.

Wear a damn mask and protect those you come in contact with. 

Nah. Masks are absurd.  Protect the old and let the rest of us go along as normal working towards hard immunity.  

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Just now, Apple Jack said:

You'll cover your nose on an airplane do or be thrown the f off.

Perfect example why that is absurd.  

On 2/25/2021 at 8:15 PM, tonydead said:

The only time I've been asked to cover my nose is on airplanes. Then 5 minutes later they pass out cookies and water and every single person on the plane takes their mask off at the same time.  :loco:

 

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There is a difference between whatever percentage of the people on the plane sliding their masks down to eat 15 Goldfish and drink 4 oz of water than the entire plane being maskless for 4 hours. But then you knew that.

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Just now, Apple Jack said:

There is a difference between whatever percentage of the people on the plane sliding their masks down to eat 15 Goldfish and drink 4 oz of water than the entire plane being maskless for 4 hours. But then you knew that.

If its soooooo important why bother with the snack?  

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Some observations from the last couple of days at work.

I asked the communications director to poll residents at the retirement community I’ve done COVID vaccine clinics at to get an idea of how many have been vaccinated or trying to. She got about 1000 responses with 70% vaccinated, 13% still trying to schedule and 17% not interested. I thought those were pretty positive results in a very red area.

Also had a few interesting interactions with patients receiving the vaccine including a couple that believe COVID is fake and a full-on anti-vaxxer that were still getting vaccinated to protect others.

Strangely enough I saw a large number of people not wearing masks today. We usually have a handful, usually the same regular customers. Today it went from 5% to around 30%, maybe worse. The only other times it’s happened was when there’s been rallies nearby but this seem random. Hopefully not a sign of people getting complacent.

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33 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

 Twitter thread that summarizes a new CDC study on COVID in elementary schools and risk of community spread.

"TAKEAWAYS: 1. Transmission happens in schools even with mitigation

2. The more layers of mitigation, the more protection against spread when one layer fails

3. Ventilation/filtration is important for mask/distancing mistakes & meals.

4.  Plastic barriers don’t replace distancing & ventilation

5. The more people in a building, the more virus in the air, both because there are more people in a room & more people = higher chance *someone* (or more than one someone!)

Final note: (at least) 14 cases came into the school which resulted in (at least) 63 more cases. Did schools contribute to community spread? Yes. Do family members of students & educators have reason to worry about infection? Yes."

Did that study even show one documented case of child to adult transmission?

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10 minutes ago, thriftyrocker said:

Yes, it is in the report.

I read it. I didnt see that. 

I am reading on my phone, so I fully acknowledge I could have missed it. 

I didnt see where they documented the household transmissions to be either adult or child. I also only saw one cluster where it was conclusively determined that a child was the index patient. In that cluster there was no student to teacher transmission. 

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8 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

I read it. I didnt see that. 

I am reading on my phone, so I fully acknowledge I could have missed it. 

I didnt see where they documented the household transmissions to be either adult or child. I also only saw one cluster where it was conclusively determined that a child was the index patient. In that cluster there was no student to teacher transmission. 

The graphs of the clusters are here: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/figures/mm7008e4-F.gif

You are correct that there was no conclusive student to teacher transmission.  However in clusters A, C, and D, this transmission path was not ruled out.

Also, in cluster H, the index case in the school was determined to be a student, who passed it to other students, who then infected family members.  The report did not specify if those family member were adults or children.

I am not sure the purpose of your question.  Do you think children cannot pass the virus to adults?

This study shows that elementary schools can facilitate community transmission.  Maybe it's a small effect compared to other situations.  Maybe it's a moderate effect that's still worth it considering the other deleterious effects of keeping kids at home instead of in school.  That's another set of topics. 

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40 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

am not sure the purpose of your question.  Do you think children cannot pass the virus to adults?

This study shows that elementary schools can facilitate community transmission.  Maybe it's a small effect compared to other situations.  Maybe it's a moderate effect that's still worth it considering the other deleterious effects of keeping kids at home instead of in school.  That's another set of topics. 

Nobody argues that spread from children to adults is impossible. It has happened. 

The discussion is whether or not it is significant and if it is exclusive to schools. 

That is why the most important data points right now should be comparing rates of spread in places with schools open and places with schools closed. 

Anecdotal situations that dont even actually show the pathway that would be necessary to move these numbers arent very helpful. 

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31 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Nobody argues that spread from children to adults is impossible. It has happened. 

The discussion is whether or not it is significant and if it is exclusive to schools. 

That is why the most important data points right now should be comparing rates of spread in places with schools open and places with schools closed. 

Anecdotal situations that dont even actually show the pathway that would be necessary to move these numbers arent very helpful. 

The issue with the data that could be found in the third paragraph is if they do proper contact tracing, which I at least remember being a huge problem early on. They could have greatly improved their methods, and if so, I agree that they should run that data, to see if there is a correlation.

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10 minutes ago, Kal El said:

The issue with the data that could be found in the third paragraph is if they do proper contact tracing, which I at least remember being a huge problem early on. They could have greatly improved their methods, and if so, I agree that they should run that data, to see if there is a correlation.

Why would you need contact tracing for rates of spread in an area?

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

Why would you need contact tracing for rates of spread in an area?

The idea would be to see if the virus is traveling through the schools or elsewhere. If the rate is the same whether schools are open or not, then it’s not a more dangerous pathway.

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50 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Nobody argues that spread from children to adults is impossible. It has happened. 

The discussion is whether or not it is significant and if it is exclusive to schools. 

That is why the most important data points right now should be comparing rates of spread in places with schools open and places with schools closed. 

Anecdotal situations that dont even actually show the pathway that would be necessary to move these numbers arent very helpful. 

Looking at large population stuff as you suggest isn't the be all, end all.  There are lots of confounding factors that cannot be controlled for as no 2 areas are truly identical. Examples: existing rates of community transmission, the type of and adherence to NPIs within schools and outside of schools, population demographics, population density, climate, etc.  It may be that opening schools has minimal to no effect on community case rates, but that may be difficult to prove conclusively. 

A constructed study that takes a deep dive into cluster tracking has its place to inform us on how best to mitigate within school and school to community transmission paths.

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1 minute ago, Kal El said:

The idea would be to see if the virus is traveling through the schools or elsewhere. If the rate is the same whether schools are open or not, then it’s not a more dangerous pathway.

I still dont see why you would need contact tracing. Determining if each individual transmission happened at school isnt all that important for determining rates in an area. 

Looking at the areas as a whole is important because humans are gonna human. For example if an area has their schools closed for schooling but then is using those schools as daycare centers have you accomplished anything? 

If kids arent in school but are at their local daycare center in newly designed group study classes that connect to remote schooling have you accomplished anything? 

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14 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Interesting Twitter thread that summarizes a new CDC study on COVID in elementary schools and risk of community spread.

"TAKEAWAYS: 1. Transmission happens in schools even with mitigation

2. The more layers of mitigation, the more protection against spread when one layer fails

3. Ventilation/filtration is important for mask/distancing mistakes & meals.

4.  Plastic barriers don’t replace distancing & ventilation

5. The more people in a building, the more virus in the air, both because there are more people in a room & more people = higher chance *someone* (or more than one someone!)

Final note: (at least) 14 cases came into the school which resulted in (at least) 63 more cases. Did schools contribute to community spread? Yes. Do family members of students & educators have reason to worry about infection? Yes."

Nobody ever said there was no transmission in schools. However the transmission rate in schools is MUCH lower than the transmission rate in the general population. Ie these kids are much safer in school than they are in public.

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5 minutes ago, jobarules said:

Nobody ever said there was no transmission in schools. However the transmission rate in schools is MUCH lower than the transmission rate in the general population. Ie these kids are much safer in school than they are in public.

I doubt my kids have more exposure while doing 100% remote learning tush if they were in a classroom full of other kids and a teacher. 

My kids aren't going on playdates, they don't go into stores (much), they don't have organized activities, they don't see family that they don't live with (except my mother in law, who lives up the street, and isn't allowed to go to the store). Their exposure is very limited.  In-person school wood be a big jump in the number of people they are in the same room with. 

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14 hours ago, Biff84 said:

Some observations from the last couple of days at work.

I asked the communications director to poll residents at the retirement community I’ve done COVID vaccine clinics at to get an idea of how many have been vaccinated or trying to. She got about 1000 responses with 70% vaccinated, 13% still trying to schedule and 17% not interested. I thought those were pretty positive results in a very red area.

Also had a few interesting interactions with patients receiving the vaccine including a couple that believe COVID is fake and a full-on anti-vaxxer that were still getting vaccinated to protect others.

Strangely enough I saw a large number of people not wearing masks today. We usually have a handful, usually the same regular customers. Today it went from 5% to around 30%, maybe worse. The only other times it’s happened was when there’s been rallies nearby but this seem random. Hopefully not a sign of people getting complacent.

My fathers assisted living community has 98% residents and 62% employees vaccinated.  All were done in December and January so this is the final number. 

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In-person schooling probably has some small but non-zero effect on community transmission.  Remote schooling almost certainly has some effect on educational progress, social development, and mental well-being of unknown magnitudes.

Regardless of your view on face-to-face instruction, just admit that there's a tradeoff involved and live with it.

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Guy I know locally just got fined $60k for operating a business without required safety measures, primarily him and his staff refusing to wear masks.  He’s been posting junk science on Facebook to support his position and encouraging others to refuse to wear masks.  Now that he’s been fined, he’s issued an apology and claims he was mistaken and did not understand the dangers of his actions.

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1 minute ago, the rover said:

Guy I know locally just got fined $60k for operating a business without required safety measures, primarily him and his staff refusing to wear masks.  He’s been posting junk science on Facebook to support his position and encouraging others to refuse to wear masks.  Now that he’s been fined, he’s issued an apology and claims he was mistaken and did not understand the dangers of his actions.

As my kids would say, "too bad, so sad," and then walk away. 

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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

I doubt my kids have more exposure while doing 100% remote learning tush if they were in a classroom full of other kids and a teacher. 

My kids aren't going on playdates, they don't go into stores (much), they don't have organized activities, they don't see family that they don't live with (except my mother in law, who lives up the street, and isn't allowed to go to the store). Their exposure is very limited.  In-person school wood be a big jump in the number of people they are in the same room with. 

Yours aren't 

Others are. I assure you 

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