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8 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

 

Thank you both again for adding a lot to the topic and bored with these comments.  Really good work.

What exactly does this post add to the topic or board?  Seriously dude, you get so much grief because you do exactly what you accuse everyone else of doing.  Just ignore them.

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This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the

Australia has had months of little to no community spread and even then it was confined to one state. By and large Australians are running around doing the right thing, sport was and is still hap

I am confident we are going to hit >750K deaths.  I think it might be a million.  I don't post a ton but I'm an ER doc in a big city. This is by far the worse I've seen since the pandemic star

1 hour ago, supermike80 said:

There is absolutely NO Way that is true.   Not in a million years.    He will tell you he does though.

And you know that as his beliefs contradict your own - and you appear to frequent those that tell you what you want to hear.

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6 hours ago, Sand said:

As an ER doc, what do you see happening when we get shots in enough arms to have herd immunity?  Given that a huge percentage of deaths are 80+ year olds, do you think that the virus, having pulled all those deaths forward, will result in a substantial drop in deaths for a few years?  Or do you believe the average lifespan of a US person has been permanently decreased?

Interested in your take as you are much closer to this than I'll ever be.

I have only been seeing 2 or so cases a shift the last few weeks.   I haven't had any people I treated who have died in the last couple months either, which is a relief after having maybe 45-50 deaths over the course of the pandemic.

I think it is a mostly due to the 55+ crowd getting vaccinated. The vaccine appears to be amazingly effective.  The world is very very lucky it is so effective.  My only fear at this point is a variant emerges which the vaccine isn't protective for, and then we will have a huge surge again.   If that doesn't happen, I think this pandemic will essentially be over by august and I  don't see a lot of ongoing deaths in the US at that point.   

I think it was a huge error for Texas and other states to drop the mask mandate.   I am all for reopening almost everything, with some common sense measures (nightclubs and concerts are a problem, for example) but masks are extremely effective and should have been continued until everybody who wants one has access to a vaccine.  My wife and I worked with literally several thousand covid patients, I did tons of procedures and intubations, and neither of us got covid which I directly attribute to masks and PPE use.   I think that the anti-mask crowd are the very worst america has to offer the world  and they disgust me.   I had several colleagues die, and many others hospitalized. Health care workers were literally risking their lives, and meanwhile there were "No Mask Nevada" rallies every weekend in Las Vegas.  Imagine how that makes us feel?

On a related note, I am completely ashamed to be an American at this point.   The Trump administration could not have handled this worse.   All he cared about was not slowing the economy down and that is why the pandemic was downplayed over and over and over by the administration.   As far as Fauci - there has never been a significant respiratory virus that is this spreadable by asymptomatic people.  The initial downplaying of masks was because it was felt that asymptomatic people wearing masks wouldn't be helpful, and it would take away mask supply for healthcare workers.  That was a huge error, in retrospect of course, but other than that Fauci has been spot on throughout the pandemic and he is a legend in infectious disease whose work during his career has advanced medicine significantly.   That there are people in this country sending him death threats and protesting against him to me is insane.

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, growlers said:

As far as Fauci - there has never been a significant respiratory virus that is this spreadable by asymptomatic people.  The initial downplaying of masks was because it was felt that asymptomatic people wearing masks wouldn't be helpful, and it would take away mask supply for healthcare workers.  That was a huge error, in retrospect of course, but other than that Fauci has been spot on throughout the pandemic and he is a legend in infectious disease whose work during his career has advanced medicine significantly.   That there are people in this country sending him death threats and protesting against him to me is insane.

Great stuff.  And I hope that Fauci is a legend.  He is, after all, our highest paid federal employee.  

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1 hour ago, growlers said:

I have only been seeing 2 or so cases a shift the last few weeks.   I haven't had any people I treated who have died in the last couple months either, which is a relief after having maybe 45-50 deaths over the course of the pandemic.

I think it is a mostly due to the 55+ crowd getting vaccinated. The vaccine appears to be amazingly effective.  The world is very very lucky it is so effective.  My only fear at this point is a variant emerges which the vaccine isn't protective for, and then we will have a huge surge again.   If that doesn't happen, I think this pandemic will essentially be over by august and I  don't see a lot of ongoing deaths in the US at that point.   

I think it was a huge error for Texas and other states to drop the mask mandate.   I am all for reopening almost everything, with some common sense measures (nightclubs and concerts are a problem, for example) but masks are extremely effective and should have been continued until everybody who wants one has access to a vaccine.  My wife and I worked with literally several thousand covid patients, I did tons of procedures and intubations, and neither of us got covid which I directly attribute to masks and PPE use.   I think that the anti-mask crowd are the very worst america has to offer the world  and they disgust me.   I had several colleagues die, and many others hospitalized. Health care workers were literally risking their lives, and meanwhile there were "No Mask Nevada" rallies every weekend in Las Vegas.  Imagine how that makes us feel?

On a related note, I am completely ashamed to be an American at this point.   The Trump administration could not have handled this worse.   All he cared about was not slowing the economy down and that is why the pandemic was downplayed over and over and over by the administration.   As far as Fauci - there has never been a significant respiratory virus that is this spreadable by asymptomatic people.  The initial downplaying of masks was because it was felt that asymptomatic people wearing masks wouldn't be helpful, and it would take away mask supply for healthcare workers.  That was a huge error, in retrospect of course, but other than that Fauci has been spot on throughout the pandemic and he is a legend in infectious disease whose work during his career has advanced medicine significantly.   That there are people in this country sending him death threats and protesting against him to me is insane.

Excellent info mixed with commentary. Thanks. 

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1 hour ago, growlers said:

I have only been seeing 2 or so cases a shift the last few weeks.   I haven't had any people I treated who have died in the last couple months either, which is a relief after having maybe 45-50 deaths over the course of the pandemic.

I think it is a mostly due to the 55+ crowd getting vaccinated. The vaccine appears to be amazingly effective.  The world is very very lucky it is so effective.  My only fear at this point is a variant emerges which the vaccine isn't protective for, and then we will have a huge surge again.   If that doesn't happen, I think this pandemic will essentially be over by august and I  don't see a lot of ongoing deaths in the US at that point.   

I think it was a huge error for Texas and other states to drop the mask mandate.   I am all for reopening almost everything, with some common sense measures (nightclubs and concerts are a problem, for example) but masks are extremely effective and should have been continued until everybody who wants one has access to a vaccine.  My wife and I worked with literally several thousand covid patients, I did tons of procedures and intubations, and neither of us got covid which I directly attribute to masks and PPE use.   I think that the anti-mask crowd are the very worst america has to offer the world  and they disgust me.   I had several colleagues die, and many others hospitalized. Health care workers were literally risking their lives, and meanwhile there were "No Mask Nevada" rallies every weekend in Las Vegas.  Imagine how that makes us feel?

On a related note, I am completely ashamed to be an American at this point.   The Trump administration could not have handled this worse.   All he cared about was not slowing the economy down and that is why the pandemic was downplayed over and over and over by the administration.   As far as Fauci - there has never been a significant respiratory virus that is this spreadable by asymptomatic people.  The initial downplaying of masks was because it was felt that asymptomatic people wearing masks wouldn't be helpful, and it would take away mask supply for healthcare workers.  That was a huge error, in retrospect of course, but other than that Fauci has been spot on throughout the pandemic and he is a legend in infectious disease whose work during his career has advanced medicine significantly.   That there are people in this country sending him death threats and protesting against him to me is insane.

Excellent info mixed with commentary. Thanks. 

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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

There are no words to express how happy I am that this person is no longer in office.

It honestly makes my heart warm. Pure joy. 

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4 hours ago, growlers said:

On a related note, I am completely ashamed to be an American at this point.   The Trump administration could not have handled this worse.   All he cared about was not slowing the economy down and that is why the pandemic was downplayed over and over and over by the administration.   As far as Fauci - there has never been a significant respiratory virus that is this spreadable by asymptomatic people.  The initial downplaying of masks was because it was felt that asymptomatic people wearing masks wouldn't be helpful, and it would take away mask supply for healthcare workers.  That was a huge error, in retrospect of course, but other than that Fauci has been spot on throughout the pandemic and he is a legend in infectious disease whose work during his career has advanced medicine significantly.   That there are people in this country sending him death threats and protesting against him to me is insane.

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/783982-government-response-to-the-coronavirus/?do=findComment&comment=23308637
Fauci also said in March 2020 that it would take 12-18 months to develop a vaccine.  He got a lot of very important things wrong.

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Trump's statement was odious on many fronts, but America does seem to owe him a debt on betting on the vaccine working rather than not ordering it like other countries -- if what he asserts is true.

Is that even accurate? Does anybody know? I'd like to get the truth on that because everything out of his mouth is a lie and the media can't be trusted to give him credit where credit is due.

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1 hour ago, ekbeats said:

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/783982-government-response-to-the-coronavirus/?do=findComment&comment=23308637
Fauci also said in March 2020 that it would take 12-18 months to develop a vaccine.  He got a lot of very important things wrong.

Pfizer and Moderna already had vaccines and Moderna had started human trials by late February and Pfizer started a couple weeks later.  Seems like an odd thing to say when he already knew of their vaccines.

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1 hour ago, ekbeats said:

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/783982-government-response-to-the-coronavirus/?do=findComment&comment=23308637
Fauci also said in March 2020 that it would take 12-18 months to develop a vaccine.  He got a lot of very important things wrong.

Yep.  March 3, 2020:

But Dr. Antony Fauci, the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, immediately corrected the President: "Let me make sure you get the ... information. A vaccine that you make and start testing in a year is not a vaccine that's deployable.”

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4 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

 

4 hours ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

https://twitter.com/andrewfeinberg/status/1376661252601212930?s=21
 

Looks like Trump has responded to Fauci and Birx. 

There are no words to express how happy I am that this person is no longer in office.

 

Post of the year? Has my vote. 

:Chefskiss:

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Since this is just the political aspect of the coronavirus, what can the public expect in the future from vaccines? Is this because the vaccine was essentially already being studied in the labs in relation to other coronaviruses?

And what is the practical fallout from this vis a vis government agencies and the approval of future vaccines? If anything, this has gone so well that worthwhile FDA reforms might be shunted because this wasn't as tragic as it could have been.

But what about the future? Does anybody have a handle on this?

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4 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Since this is just the political aspect of the coronavirus, what can the public expect in the future from vaccines? Is this because the vaccine was essentially already being studied in the labs in relation to other coronaviruses?

And what is the practical fallout from this vis a vis government agencies and the approval of future vaccines? If anything, this has gone so well that worthwhile FDA reforms might be shunted because this wasn't as tragic as it could have been.

But what about the future? Does anybody have a handle on this?

Good article on this

Gets into the science weeds a bit but has good info.

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2 hours ago, rockaction said:

Since this is just the political aspect of the coronavirus, what can the public expect in the future from vaccines? Is this because the vaccine was essentially already being studied in the labs in relation to other coronaviruses?

And what is the practical fallout from this vis a vis government agencies and the approval of future vaccines? If anything, this has gone so well that worthwhile FDA reforms might be shunted because this wasn't as tragic as it could have been.

But what about the future? Does anybody have a handle on this?

The RNA vaccines are game changers for vaccines. I think all vaccines will use the technology.

There’s still a lot we don’t know about these vaccines like how much it slows transmission, how long the ‘immunity’ lasts and how effective they are against the variants. If we weren’t in an active pandemic killing thousands a day, those questions would need to be answered before a vaccine gets approved. The speed that those first vaccines were developed is mindblowing and you’d expect skepticism especially since no vaccine had been developed by that method.

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Well, I may have spoken too soon about no recent personal deaths from COVID.  Just got home from a shift but was called upstairs at midnight to the Icu to put a chest tube in a COVID patient who coded and had a large pneumothorax. He won’t last more than a couple days more. Not really sure why America flogs these patients for weeks in the ICU when they are clearly going to die. He was intubated on the 17th and already has coded three times. 
 

I read that Trump statement about fauci. Trump is an absolute garbage human being.  I’ll leave it at that. I place a huge blame on him for several hundred thousand deaths. The Pfizer vaccine was developed by two Scientists in Germany that have been working on mRNA vaccines for many years.  It had absolutely no connection to the United States government.  Pfizer was involved in trials and international marketing and had little to do with the actual vaccine development.   
 

i don’t know all the nuances of the New York stuff, but I will say that my impression was that nursing homes were refusing to take any patient back that was COVID positive regardless of whether they were sick or not.  You can’t have these patients just boarding in acute care hospitals.  We weren’t hit nearly as hard as New York and we were practically putting sick people in janitor supply closets.  Nursing homes are notorious for dumping patients into the hospital for insane reasons. I’ve personally had a nursing home send a patient to the ER because he threw a cup at a nurses aide and then refuse to take him back. So we have to admit him and find another home to take him, what a waste of $$$.  
I get that the nursing homes weren’t equipped from a PPE perspective.  Maybe there should have been some way to send these patients to some alternative facility that would house them for 10 days until they either weren’t contagious or got sick enough to actually need to be in a hospital. But my impression is that Cuomo had to do something to force the nursing homes not to dump every COVID positive patient in the hospital for two weeks. Maybe there should have been a different plan, but I feel like most of those attacking Cuomo are people with no healthcare experience doing so for political reasons. 

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7 hours ago, tonydead said:

Arkansas next to get rid of mask mandate. :thumbup:

Why is this so great?  Why not just wait a month or two when everybody who wants to be vaccinated can be vaccinated?  

I don’t follow this board much but I’m gonna guess you are a trump supporter just like every single antimask person I’ve ever interacted with.  Which pretty much proves my point that trump is hugely culpable. The same people who criticize fauci for the mask issue all Idolize trump, who was the biggest anti masker of all!   The cognitive dissonance of that fact is astounding   


America should be ashamed of their response to this pandemic.  We are literally the worst country in the world in the way we dealt with this.  Maybe Brazil.  But that is run by MAGA-hat South America edition so I guess that makes sense. 
 

i fully expect to be ridiculed as an American when I eventually make it back to Europe and Australia.  And it’s deserved.      The New Zealand pin on your backpack will be the new Canadian pin when you want to avoid being stigmatized. Or really, the pin of literally any other country would be better too.

we need to invest in science education in this country.  Want to complain about China overtaking us?   Well then look in the mirror America.  We suck. 

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1 hour ago, growlers said:

Why is this so great?  Why not just wait a month or two when everybody who wants to be vaccinated can be vaccinated?  

I don’t follow this board much but I’m gonna guess you are a trump supporter just like every single antimask person I’ve ever interacted with.  Which pretty much proves my point that trump is hugely culpable. The same people who criticize fauci for the mask issue all Idolize trump, who was the biggest anti masker of all!   The cognitive dissonance of that fact is astounding   


America should be ashamed of their response to this pandemic.  We are literally the worst country in the world in the way we dealt with this.  Maybe Brazil.  But that is run by MAGA-hat South America edition so I guess that makes sense. 
 

i fully expect to be ridiculed as an American when I eventually make it back to Europe and Australia.  And it’s deserved.      The New Zealand pin on your backpack will be the new Canadian pin when you want to avoid being stigmatized. Or really, the pin of literally any other country would be better too.

we need to invest in science education in this country.  Want to complain about China overtaking us?   Well then look in the mirror America.  We suck. 

Wow....Thankfully many of us love this country and are happy we live here.  I think it's a good idea you head back to Europe and Australia.   

This place.....Pretty standard to come here and find someone saying how much we suck as a nation.  Good stuff.

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2 hours ago, growlers said:

Why is this so great?  Why not just wait a month or two when everybody who wants to be vaccinated can be vaccinated?  

I don’t follow this board much but I’m gonna guess you are a trump supporter just like every single antimask person I’ve ever interacted with.  Which pretty much proves my point that trump is hugely culpable. The same people who criticize fauci for the mask issue all Idolize trump, who was the biggest anti masker of all!   The cognitive dissonance of that fact is astounding  

I know this was directed at another poster, but I hate Trump and I also think we're about at the point where it's time for mask mandates to go away.  Certainly people who aren't vaccinated should feel free to keep wearing them if they want -- I'm going to keep wearing mine for about three more weeks even though my state doesn't have a mandate and nobody is forcing me to -- but everybody in my region who's at high risk of covid has been vaccinated for a while now.  The case for policing this sort of thing is currently a lot weaker than what it was even six weeks ago.  

My position on mask mandates changed not because I changed my mind about Trump, but because the facts on the ground have changed.  

Quote


America should be ashamed of their response to this pandemic.  We are literally the worst country in the world in the way we dealt with this.  Maybe Brazil.  But that is run by MAGA-hat South America edition so I guess that makes sense. 

i fully expect to be ridiculed as an American when I eventually make it back to Europe and Australia.  And it’s deserved.      The New Zealand pin on your backpack will be the new Canadian pin when you want to avoid being stigmatized. Or really, the pin of literally any other country would be better too.

we need to invest in science education in this country.  Want to complain about China overtaking us?   Well then look in the mirror America.  We suck. 

I don't think Europeans are going to be making fun of Americans any time soon about how to best handle a pandemic.  And seeing as how I came into this threat to post about Canada yanking vaccines off the market because of scientific illiteracy, you might want to keep that Canada pin packed away for now too.

Sure, Trump was terrible.  We should have been doing widespread testing and contact tracing this time last year, and we didn't.  We should have been wearing masks this time last year, and we weren't.  That's all very bad and lots of people like me were saying at the time that those were unforced errors.  But the US is actually doing a good job with vaccination relative to all countries that are not Israel or the UK, both of which are poor comps for us.  This isn't actually all about Trump -- that guy has been out of office for a few months now.  It's time to get him out of your head.

Edit: You're right of course that New Zealand did a great job with covid.  But the US was never going to close its borders with the rest of the world -- the "New Zealand" strategy was never something that was on the table for us or any other highly-developed, non-island nation.  The strategy that we should have been following was the "South Korea" strategy of testing and contact tracing, and I agree that we totally dropped the ball there.  

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3 hours ago, growlers said:

Well, I may have spoken too soon about no recent personal deaths from COVID.  Just got home from a shift but was called upstairs at midnight to the Icu to put a chest tube in a COVID patient who coded and had a large pneumothorax. He won’t last more than a couple days more. Not really sure why America flogs these patients for weeks in the ICU when they are clearly going to die. He was intubated on the 17th and already has coded three times.

Also, since you're making this into a nation-vs-nation thing, did you notice that you started this story in the first person and ended it in the third person?

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I love this country as much as the next flag waving dude.  We absolutely do not suck.

That being said, there is a significant portion of our population that sucks and they make the rest of us look bad.  I wish it wasn't true, but it is.  This country has taken a very anti-science, anti-intellect, anti-expert turn over the past couple of decades.  we turn our noses up at good advise because of muh freedom!  

As far as comparing us to Europe, where we lagged in mitigation, we far exceed in vaccination.  Europeans are jealous right now at our vaccination program.  We will turn the corner faster than they will (all though with a much higher death toll).

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13 minutes ago, John123 said:

So, the one thing Biden did in addition to the plan already in place by Trump is turning out to be a total failure:

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/29/covid-vaccine-sites-478233

 

Not sure I understand the criticism here.  Both these solutions came from the fed government.  My wife and I just happen to go through the fed vaccine site here in Central Florida and it was effortless.  The problem with them is they aren't as convenient as going up to Walgreens.  If I had the option, I'd go to Walgreens.  They offered two options and almost immediately began servicing more than "65 and older" crowds.  One is going away because the other is more convenient.  Not sure why that's "total failure".   Speaking anecdotally, the fed site here in Central Florida served its purpose while they were getting things situated with the likes of Walmart, Sams, Costco, Walgreens, CVS etc.  Is it better to keep these things open, burning money for being underutilized?  There's plenty to criticize in this administration.  I don't see this being one of those things.

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18 hours ago, growlers said:

As far as Fauci - there has never been a significant respiratory virus that is this spreadable by asymptomatic people.  The initial downplaying of masks was because it was felt that asymptomatic people wearing masks wouldn't be helpful, and it would take away mask supply for healthcare workers.  That was a huge error, in retrospect of course

Thanks for posting this. I think I learned this at one time, but I certainly did not retain it. For me, this gets anyone off the hook for recommending against masks through the date in early April when the CDC adjusted their guidance to account for aerosol spread via breath. You don't know what you don't know, and it's OK to make educated good-faith assumptions based on decades of experience -- even if those assumptions are later disproven.

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1 hour ago, Doug B said:
19 hours ago, growlers said:

As far as Fauci - there has never been a significant respiratory virus that is this spreadable by asymptomatic people.  The initial downplaying of masks was because it was felt that asymptomatic people wearing masks wouldn't be helpful, and it would take away mask supply for healthcare workers.  That was a huge error, in retrospect of course

Thanks for posting this. I think I learned this at one time, but I certainly did not retain it. For me, this gets anyone off the hook for recommending against masks through the date in early April when the CDC adjusted their guidance to account for aerosol spread via breath. You don't know what you don't know, and it's OK to make educated good-faith assumptions based on decades of experience -- even if those assumptions are later disproven.

No, No, and more no.

They still don't even know for sure how much spread is done by asymptomatic cases. 

We also don't get to credit masks in part for low flu spread this year and then ignore that when it doesnt suit the argument. In other words if they help stop flu spread it shows that the "oh my god this is new and the science changed" argment has zero merit.

And the biggest reason why that is a made up revisionist propagandist theory is because it ignores the simple fact that this is the US and people still go out sick and in the beginning when they were dumb as hell and thought it was just big ole fat rain droplets masks would have been pretty much 100% effective against them.

All testing historically showed masks blocked massive %s of the larger droplets. Even tea cloth crap masks were known to stop most of the bigger droplets that they were saying could land on stuff.

ETA: also adding that almost every single super spreader event is from a symptomatic case. They knew that early and often. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I know this was directed at another poster, but I hate Trump and I also think we're about at the point where it's time for mask mandates to go away.  Certainly people who aren't vaccinated should feel free to keep wearing them if they want -- I'm going to keep wearing mine for about three more weeks even though my state doesn't have a mandate and nobody is forcing me to -- but everybody in my region who's at high risk of covid has been vaccinated for a while now.  The case for policing this sort of thing is currently a lot weaker than what it was even six weeks ago.  

My position on mask mandates changed not because I changed my mind about Trump, but because the facts on the ground have changed.  

I don't think Europeans are going to be making fun of Americans any time soon about how to best handle a pandemic.  And seeing as how I came into this threat to post about Canada yanking vaccines off the market because of scientific illiteracy, you might want to keep that Canada pin packed away for now too.

Sure, Trump was terrible.  We should have been doing widespread testing and contact tracing this time last year, and we didn't.  We should have been wearing masks this time last year, and we weren't.  That's all very bad and lots of people like me were saying at the time that those were unforced errors.  But the US is actually doing a good job with vaccination relative to all countries that are not Israel or the UK, both of which are poor comps for us.  This isn't actually all about Trump -- that guy has been out of office for a few months now.  It's time to get him out of your head.

Edit: You're right of course that New Zealand did a great job with covid.  But the US was never going to close its borders with the rest of the world -- the "New Zealand" strategy was never something that was on the table for us or any other highly-developed, non-island nation.  The strategy that we should have been following was the "South Korea" strategy of testing and contact tracing, and I agree that we totally dropped the ball there.  

He is saying keep on for another month or two until everyone who wants a vaccine can get one.  What is wrong with that proposal?  They have yet to prove that vaccinated individuals can't catch or spread the disease.  Until that is proven keeping a mask on for another two months is basically a minor inconvenience.  We are risking lives to do otherwise.  

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2 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

He is saying keep on for another month or two until everyone who wants a vaccine can get one.  What is wrong with that proposal?  They have yet to prove that vaccinated individuals can't catch or spread the disease.  Until that is proven keeping a mask on for another two months is basically a minor inconvenience.  We are risking lives to do otherwise.  

Come on.  When you remove the high risk people the chance of death from Covid is almost zero. 

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1 minute ago, John123 said:

Come on.  When you remove the high risk people the chance of death from Covid is almost zero. 

7 day average death rate is just under 1000.  People are still dying in very high numbers.  It is too hard for you to wear masks for two months to bring that rate down further?  

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6 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

7 day average death rate is just under 1000.  People are still dying in very high numbers.  It is too hard for you to wear masks for two months to bring that rate down further?  

You'd have to show your work, and with some level of context, before I'd even entertain this discussion.

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10 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

He is saying keep on for another month or two until everyone who wants a vaccine can get one.  What is wrong with that proposal?  They have yet to prove that vaccinated individuals can't catch or spread the disease.  Until that is proven keeping a mask on for another two months is basically a minor inconvenience.  We are risking lives to do otherwise.  

Well, first of all, the whole narrative about vaccinated people contracting and spreading covid asymptomatically is almost certainly FUD.  We've "known" for quite some time now that that isn't the case.  Not "known" in a double-blind peer-reviewed clinical trial sense, but it's clear in the data. 

Second, people who are serious risk from covid have been eligible for vaccination for a while now.  I'm middle-aged and basically healthy, and I've been vaccinated.  My kids are both in college, perfectly healthy, and are getting vaccinated next week.  Whose lives are we risking here?  People who don't want to vaccinated?  Tough.  I don't plan on going an inch out of my way to accommodate people who choose not to get vaccinated.  I'll defend their right to make that decision, but screw 'em otherwise.

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Just now, John123 said:

You'd have to show your work, and with some level of context, before I'd even entertain this discussion.

What work do you want me to show you?  Do you deny that many people are dying?  Here are two links below for it.  It is entirely reasonabl request that until all people have access to a vaccine that masks are worn.  

 

Scroll down to reported deaths per day  - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

Scroll donw to reported deaths per day and click to show 7 day moving average - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

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22 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

No, No, and more no.

They still don't even know for sure how much spread is done by asymptomatic cases. 

We also don't get to credit masks in part for low flu spread this year and then ignore that when it doesnt suit the argument. In other words if they help stop flu spread it shows that the "oh my god this is new and the science changed" argment has zero merit. (1)

And the biggest reason why that is a made up revisionist propagandist theory is because it ignores the simple fact that this is the US and people still go out sick  (2) and in the beginning when they were dumb as hell and thought it was just big ole fat rain droplets masks would have been pretty much 100% effective against them.

All testing historically showed masks blocked massive %s of the larger droplets. Even tea cloth crap masks were known to stop most of the bigger droplets that they were saying could land on stuff.

ETA: also adding that almost every single super spreader event is from a symptomatic case. They knew that early and often. (3)

 

 

(1) I don't understand your point here.  If masks are effective, and they helped stopped the spread of the flu, why would we not assume they would stop the spread of COVID?  Or, are you claiming we knew they would stop spread of the flu and therefore we should have known they would stop COVID from day 1?

(2) that assumes that everyone wears masks, and wears them effectively - i.e. not around their chin, always when they are supposed to, etc.  I don't think that's a very valid assumption.

(3) I'm asking because I don't know - what percentage of US  patients acquired COVID via a superspreader event?

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Well, first of all, the whole narrative about vaccinated people contracting and spreading covid asymptomatically is almost certainly FUD.  We've "known" for quite some time now that that isn't the case.  Not "known" in a double-blind peer-reviewed clinical trial sense, but it's clear in the data. 

Second, people who are serious risk from covid have been eligible for vaccination for a while now.  I'm middle-aged and basically healthy, and I've been vaccinated.  My kids are both in college, perfectly healthy, and are getting vaccinated next week.  Whose lives are we risking here?  People who don't want to vaccinated?  Tough.  I don't plan on going an inch out of my way to accommodate people who choose not to get vaccinated.  I'll defend their right to make that decision, but screw 'em otherwise.

To be fair, I've been eligible for a couple weeks now and can't find a vaccine.  The places offering it aren't even taking appointments most of the time.  My GF, who SHOULD have been eligible months ago but for some stupid reason only became eligible when I did, has an appointment a couple weeks from now.  So, I'm happy for you and wherever you live but it's not necessarily representative of everywhere. 

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2 minutes ago, John123 said:

To be fair, I've been eligible for a couple weeks now and can't find a vaccine.  The places offering it aren't even taking appointments most of the time.  My GF, who SHOULD have been eligible months ago but for some stupid reason only became eligible when I did, has an appointment a couple weeks from now.  So, I'm happy for you and wherever you live but it's not necessarily representative of everywhere. 

Okay, fair enough.  I was singing a different tune back in January before vaccination really took off.

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12 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Well, first of all, the whole narrative about vaccinated people contracting and spreading covid asymptomatically is almost certainly FUD.  We've "known" for quite some time now that that isn't the case.  Not "known" in a double-blind peer-reviewed clinical trial sense, but it's clear in the data. 

Second, people who are serious risk from covid have been eligible for vaccination for a while now.  I'm middle-aged and basically healthy, and I've been vaccinated.  My kids are both in college, perfectly healthy, and are getting vaccinated next week.  Whose lives are we risking here?  People who don't want to vaccinated?  Tough.  I don't plan on going an inch out of my way to accommodate people who choose not to get vaccinated.  I'll defend their right to make that decision, but screw 'em otherwise.

There are large scale clinical trials ongoing to show the vaccines stop spread but we don't "know" the answer to that but should in a couple of months.  Hopefully it does but until that time we don't know the answer to this question. 

Even so there are many people out there that are unvaccinated and not eligible.  There are also many eligible people that want a vaccine but havent yet gotten one.  I don't care about people who can't get vaccinated and agree we shouldn't.  I do think until all people can get a vaccine easily we should be wearing masks.  In about 2 months everyone who wants one will get one easily.  What is wrong with waiting for that?

 

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40 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Second, people who are serious risk from covid have been eligible for vaccination for a while now.  I'm middle-aged and basically healthy, and I've been vaccinated.  My kids are both in college, perfectly healthy, and are getting vaccinated next week.  Whose lives are we risking here?  People who don't want to vaccinated?  Tough.  I don't plan on going an inch out of my way to accommodate people who choose not to get vaccinated.  I'll defend their right to make that decision, but screw 'em otherwise.

I realize she is .01 of the population or whatever, but its my wife who is having a tough time with this right now.  She has CVID which in her case means her immune system has no memory.  Needless to say a vaccine for her might as well be a saline shot as her immune system won't retain it.  Soooo, her (we) are in the really fun moment right now where we have to depend upon the kindness of the general public.  Herd immunity will eventually let her "get back to normal", but obviously that's going to take awhile and its really going to be forever until she gets COVID antibodies from her weekly infusions she gets from plasma (they're taking those out right for convalescent therapy).  I'm getting vaccinated (in between doses) so that helps.  The kids getting it (Fall? Idk) eventually will really help. To say she feels like she's being left behind while people live it up is an understatement, but it is what it is at this stage.

I guess what I'm saying in this wandering anecdote is while I can't expect the world to continue to wear masks for the small percentage of folks like my wife (or also folks going through chemo). Please don't intentionally sneeze on people figuring everyone has had their shot to get vaccinated, so tough.  :)

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I'm young, healthy and getting my 2nd shot on Friday. I'm planning to wear a mask indoors until everyone who wants a vaccine can get one. It's just such a minimal sacrifice, why not continue to be as safe as we can for everyone until they have access to the vaccine?

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4 minutes ago, Uwe Blab said:

I realize she is .01 of the population or whatever, but its wife who is having a tough time with this right now.  She has CVID which in her case means her immune system has no memory.  Needless to say a vaccine for her might as well be a saline shot as her immune system won't retain it.  Soooo, her (we) are in the really fun moment right now where we have to depend upon the kindness of the general public.  Herd immunity will eventually let her "get back to normal", but obviously that's going to take awhile and its really going to be forever until she gets COVID antibodies from her weekly infusions she gets from plasma (they're taking those out right for convalescent therapy).  I'm getting vaccinated (in between doses) so that helps.  The kids getting it eventually will really help. To say she feels like she's being left behind while people live it up is an understatement, but it is what it is at this stage.

I guess what I'm saying in this wandering anecdote is while I can't expect the world to continue to wear masks for the small percentage of folks like my wife (or also folks going through chemo), please don't intentionally sneeze on people figuring everyone has had their shot to get vaccinated, so tough.  :)

I will happily wear a mask for people like your wife.  I wish you good luck and the best.

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