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Government Response To The Coronavirus (8 Viewers)

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parasaurolophus said:
Because he doesn't always "strongly favor caution". I mean think about it. If they strongly favored caution there would be specific rules for businesses to follow regarding open windows and doors. Instead they maybe casually mention ventilation buried in some docs and they continue to mutter things like opportunistic airborne and still put out public messaging focused on washing hands and staying home. Because they have fought all along the existence of airborne spread. They have had to be dragged kicking and screaming.
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You're introducing a new element. We weren't talking about practical application of ventilation measures to fight COVID. We were talking upthread about Fauci not yet publicly adopting the idea that vaccinated people don't "carry" the virus.

Plus you moved from talking about Fauci to talking about a "they" between your first and second sentences. However, you've inadvertently highlighted something important -- that different researchers can and will have different takes about various aspects of the COVID response. That's what makes consensus so important -- none of Walensky, Fauci, etc. ... none of them can be the lone authoritative voice on these matters.

 
parasaurolophus said:
I dont recall any outside of Disney. I didnt really go a lot of places though. 3 grocery stores, 2 liquor stores(ABC and totalwine). That's it for indoor. I could definitely see in at some of the strip mall locations I walked past and a couple of those places seemed pretty mask free. I tried to use a bathroom at starbucks once and was shocked I couldnt get in, so some places definitely had their own restrictions.  

Total side note... What's with all the hookah places??? I swear I see a new one every time I am there, and we go there pretty often since we are DVC owners. 
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To be fair it was "muddled" messaging at best.  We weren't officially "opened" until Sept and that never applied to grocery or liquor :lol:   By us, all the outdoor malls seem to be a constant taking off and putting on of masks as they go from one store to the next and if you were down near those kinds of places on I-Drive, there's no question you saw some pretty inconsistent followings.  Did things seem slower to you?  Fewer people?  Part of what I get from people is "whoa, you should have seen all the people!!!!" and in reality, what they were seeing was "slow".  It's happened a few times as I've recommended friends go to the Keys...now's the perfect time with so few people.  We are down there once a month and by their standard, it's about half what it normally is, but to those who don't go a lot it was "packed".  

 
Doug B said:
You're introducing a new element. We weren't talking about practical application of ventilation measures to fight COVID. We were talking upthread about Fauci not yet publicly adopting the idea that vaccinated people don't "carry" the virus.

Plus you moved from talking about Fauci to talking about a "they" between your first and second sentences. However, you've inadvertently highlighted something important -- that different researchers can and will have different takes about various aspects of the COVID response. That's what makes consensus so important -- none of Walensky, Fauci, etc. ... none of them can be the lone authoritative voice on these matters.
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I am not introducing anything new. I said sometimes fauci stays in a lane that is overly cautious and sometimes he stays in a lane that isn't. I am just naming examples. 

He did the same things with masks too. The precautionary principle would have dictated an immediate adoption of masks. 

It also would have favored distance greater than 6 feet. 

 
tonydead said:
Link

Now are you going to say he's just a scientist, and not the top infectious disease expert in the world?  Because yeah, just an average schmo in one of the labs makes six figures.
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You said 7 or 8 figures. That's an order of magnitude or 2 more than your link. 

He's a top infectious disease expert in the world, thus is true.  How many SMEs make 7 or 8 figures in big pharma?  I think very, very few.

Also, maybe he just didn't want to work at a for-profit company, nor try to maximize his earning potential? There are lots of people out there like that.  I'm not sure why you ascribe such negative associations with wanting to work for a government organization.

 
The Z Machine said:
You said 7 or 8 figures. That's an order of magnitude or 2 more than your link. 

He's a top infectious disease expert in the world, thus is true.  How many SMEs make 7 or 8 figures in big pharma?  I think very, very few.

Also, maybe he just didn't want to work at a for-profit company, nor try to maximize his earning potential? There are lots of people out there like that.  I'm not sure why you ascribe such negative associations with wanting to work for a government organization.
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No it’s not, they get salaries in the millions (7 figures) and compensation in the tens of millions (8 figures). Or more. Fauci gets a 6 figure salary, 400K. 
 

:lmao:  And when you are talking figures it a multiple of 10 not 2.  Math. 

 
rockaction said:
Honestly, reading some comments, both pro- and anti-Trump, especially about corona, is like hearing the ####### neighbor's dog again. It just sits around and barks at everyone, annoying as hell, motivated by sound and fury, and gives nothing resembling discernment in thought to what might be breaching its territory.

Woof woof woof. Woof woof woof woof woof.
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Ummm.   Yes.   Sure.   
It must be wonderful to be someone who rises above all that.

 
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tonydead said:
People still treating this as save everybody's life at all costs to the economy, small business, mental illness, drug addiction, et. al.

It was supposed to be about handling the hospital surge, not restricting the American people at all costs.  These same people will be having you wearing a mask every cold and flu season.  Part of immunity involves healthy people spreading virus and naturally developing antibodies. 

Also, they conveniently hid the side effects of most people getting sick after taking the vaccine, imo.  They had to know this.  I know people to this day that won't take the flu vaccine because they used to get sick from it.
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Who is “getting sick after taking the vaccine?”  When you get the COVID vaccine and have side effects you aren’t “sick with COVID.”

 
IvanKaramazov said:
We know now that spring break was never really as big as a deal as we originally thought.  In March 2020, it made sense to get nervous about a bunch of irresponsible college kids partying on the beaches.  In March 2021, we all should have known better than to get worked up over this.  That's a good example of our understanding of the science changing over the course of a year.  
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I missed the study that showed spring break wasn’t a big deal.  What happened?

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Ummm.   Yes.   Sure.   
It must be wonderful to be someone who rises above all that.
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I was going to say you might want to re-do that because it's sort of far off from what I do around here, but I see you have. No reporting, just doubt you wanted to say that, really. We all have those moments.

 
tonydead said:
Playing word games?  Call it a reaction if you want but having a fevor of 102 makes you feel sick. 
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Word games matter when it comes to this stuff.   I'm sorry that you or anyone else has adverse side effects.   But as someone who knows a ton of people who got really, really ill with COVID.....a fever of 102 for a day or two isn't a crisis.  I do realize it would feel crappy though.

 
rockaction said:
I was going to say you might want to re-do that because it's sort of far off from what I do around here, but I see you have. No reporting, just doubt you wanted to say that, really. We all have those moments.
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Yeah.  I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to re-do it.  Clearly not a great moment.   Thank you.

Your post probably wasn't intended the way I read it, which is far more on me than you.  

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Yeah.  I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to re-do it.  Clearly not a great moment.   Thank you.

Your post probably wasn't intended the way I read it, which is far more on me than you.  
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No problem. I've done that plenty in this very forum. In fact, just yesterday. So...it's awfully hard to judge. Peace. 

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Word games matter when it comes to this stuff.   I'm sorry that you or anyone else has adverse side effects.   But as someone who knows a ton of people who got really, really ill with COVID.....a fever of 102 for a day or two isn't a crisis.  I do realize it would feel crappy though.
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Ok if you dont think people refusing to get the vaccine because they see no benefit and dont want to get sick is a "crisis" 

Alex P Keaton said:
Yeah.  I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to re-do it.  Clearly not a great moment.   Thank you.

Your post probably wasn't intended the way I read it, which is far more on me than you.  
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Seems to happen a lot. 

 
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rockaction said:
Let's drop it. I'm the same way and susceptible to the same stuff. So isn't almost everybody in this forum. I could count on less than two hands maybe the people this doesn't apply to.
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Ok. But I dunno, he only quoted me thrice, yet put an awful lot of words in my mouth. 

 
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tonydead said:
Ok. But I dunno, he only quoted me thrice, yet put an awful lot of words in my mouth. 
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Oh, you can get on him for putting words in your mouth all you want. You do you in that respect. Fire away, as far as I'm concerned. I just wanted to make clear that anything regarding me is over. I get why and I get it. 

 
Alex P Keaton said:
I quoted your exact words.  
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Link to where I said "sick with COVID".  TIA 

Alex P Keaton said:
Who is “getting sick after taking the vaccine?”  When you get the COVID vaccine and have side effects you aren’t “sick with COVID.”
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And before we go around in more word game circles, if you think its incorrect to call someone with a 102 fever sick we can just drop it right there.  

 
tonydead said:
Link to where I said "sick with COVID".  TIA 

And before we go around in more word game circles, if you think its incorrect to call someone with a 102 fever sick we can just drop it right there.  
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What illness do you think you had?

Or since you don’t like word games, what do you think you were sick with?

 
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The Z Machine said:
Because the science isn't conclusive (yet) and if it doesn't pan out to be correct, then it's a massive public health risk.  I would assume they want to be as sure as possible this is the case before saying that.
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Exactly.  They are looking at through a myopic lens. Not even considering the downside of having lockdowns and mask mandates.  

 
tonydead said:
No it’s not, they get salaries in the millions (7 figures) and compensation in the tens of millions (8 figures). Or more. Fauci gets a 6 figure salary, 400K. 
 

:lmao:  And when you are talking figures it a multiple of 10 not 2.  Math. 
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I honestly don't believe this.  There are very few subject matter experts worldwide on any topic that make 10s of millions of dollars that are not C-level executives.  I would be very interested where you're getting your info from here to make this claim.

tonydead said:
There is a reason he was stuck with a government job his entire career and wasn't ever offered a seven or eight figure salary with any of the top pharmaceutical  companies.  
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This is what you said previous.  You said "7 or 8 figures".  6 figures = $100,000+, 7 figures = $1,000,000+.  8 figures = $10,000,000.  These are orders of magnitudes apart.  2x $1,000,000 = $2,000,000 = still 7 figures.  2x $400,000 = $800,000 = six figures.

 
ekbeats said:
Exactly.  They are looking at through a myopic lens. Not even considering the downside of having lockdowns and mask mandates.  
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What lockdowns are ongoing?  And what's the downside of the mask mandate?

The myopic lens is that of saving lives.  I think it's a pretty good one.  I'd much rather be Taiwan than Brazil at this juncture.

 
The Z Machine said:
I honestly don't believe this.  There are very few subject matter experts worldwide on any topic that make 10s of millions of dollars that are not C-level executives.  I would be very interested where you're getting your info from here to make this claim.

This is what you said previous.  You said "7 or 8 figures".  6 figures = $100,000+, 7 figures = $1,000,000+.  8 figures = $10,000,000.  These are orders of magnitudes apart.  2x $1,000,000 = $2,000,000 = still 7 figures.  2x $400,000 = $800,000 = six figures.
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You dont believe? You dont have to guess. Here is the first guy on that list. You wouldnt call him an expert huh?  Salary just shy of 10 million. 

Anecdotaly, every board member of my company would be considered a subject matter expert in our field. No PR or fancy name hires. Life long employees.  And they are loaded rich. None of their government counterparts make a fraction of what they do, how could they, Fauci is the highest paid. Any we wouldnt consider any of them experts either, not behind closed doors. 

Whatever on your math, now we agree the experts in Fauci's field get salaries in the multi millions. 

 
The Z Machine said:
What lockdowns are ongoing?  And what's the downside of the mask mandate?

The myopic lens is that of saving lives.  I think it's a pretty good one.  I'd much rather be Taiwan than Brazil at this juncture.
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Zero bars are open, restaurants at 50% and the idiot governor is about to roll it back to 25%  Those lockdowns. 

People arent going to get vaccinated if they arent incentivized, starting with the stupid masks. 

Do you ask these same dumb questions over day after day? 

 
tonydead said:
You dont believe? You dont have to guess. Here is the first guy on that list. You wouldnt call him an expert huh?  Salary just shy of 10 million. 

Anecdotaly, every board member of my company would be considered a subject matter expert in our field. No PR or fancy name hires. Life long employees.  And they are loaded rich. None of their government counterparts make a fraction of what they do, how could they, Fauci is the highest paid. Any we wouldnt consider any of them experts either, not behind closed doors. 

Whatever on your math, now we agree the experts in Fauci's field get salaries in the multi millions. 
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But you said 8 figures. That Fauci wasn't offered a job that pays 8 figures.  The guy you linked, a c-level exec at Pfizer didn't make 8 figures. 

Look, you were exaggerating on the salary stuff to demean Fauci.  I get it.   But the reality is that neither of us have any idea about whether he was offered a job in private industry nor what it might have paid. 

 
The Z Machine said:
But you said 8 figures. That Fauci wasn't offered a job that pays 8 figures.  The guy you linked, a c-level exec at Pfizer didn't make 8 figures. 

Look, you were exaggerating on the salary stuff to demean Fauci.  I get it.   But the reality is that neither of us have any idea about whether he was offered a job in private industry nor what it might have paid. 
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tonydead said:
Do you have any knowledge of the typical government worker or work with government contracts?  There is a reason he was stuck with a government job his entire career and wasn't ever offered a seven or eight figure salary with any of the top pharmaceutical  companies.  
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His compensation was 8,610,802.  Some other guys at Pfiser are in the 10s of millions.  My advise, if you get trpped up on stuff this simple, give it a rest.  

Fauci wasn't ever offered that type of job because hes no expert. If he were he'd be on the board of Pfiser or Maderna making bank. That's just the way it is with government lifers. Government cant pay and they attract low level talent. They are the minor league of any industry they are involved with. 

 
The Z Machine said:
And what's the downside of the mask mandate?
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The framing of this question is backwards.  If you're going to tell other adults how to live their lives, the burden is on you to demonstrate a compelling reason for doing so.

Six months ago, that was easy.  We had a novel virus careening through the population, killing some, hospitalizing a bunch more, and inflicting long-term injury on a mostly-unknown number of survivors.  I was 100% in favor of mask mandates back then because of the clear and substantial public health benefits.

Now things are different.  A slight majority adults have been vaccinated.  By Memorial Day, the overwhelming majority of adults who aren't vaccinated will be unvaccinated by their own choice.  There's no evidence that vaccinated people are significant vectors of transmission and a growing body of evidence showing that they aren't.  The facts on the ground have changed, and it's about time for policy to change accordingly.  

"Everybody keep wearing a mask even though you're vaccinated" has very little downside, just like "Everybody wear green on St. Patrick's Day" has little downside, but we're not justified in mandating either.

 
tonydead said:
Fauci wasn't ever offered that type of job because hes no expert. If he were he'd be on the board of Pfiser or Maderna making bank. That's just the way it is with government lifers. Government cant pay and they attract low level talent. They are the minor league of any industry they are involved with. 
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Yea, what a bum

from 1983 to 2002, "Fauci was the 13th most-cited scientist among the 2.5 to 3.0 million authors in all disciplines throughout the world who published articles in scientific journals."

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Now things are different.  A slight majority adults have been vaccinated.  By Memorial Day, the overwhelming majority of adults who aren't vaccinated will be unvaccinated by their own choice.  There's no evidence that vaccinated people are significant vectors of transmission and a growing body of evidence showing that they aren't.  The facts on the ground have changed, and it's about time for policy to change accordingly.  
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I agree, but not as of April 21. I think Memorial Day is a reasonable goal. At its core, mask mandates are toothless anyway but them being in place causes more people to wear one than they would otherwise and obviously they are effective in reducing spread. 

I think capacity limits are a much greater issue than masks. I think picking those battles where they still exist should take priority to mask mandates. I think removal of the latter will take care of itself over the next couple of months and that'll be evident in the data. 

 
the moops said:
Yea, what a bum

from 1983 to 2002, "Fauci was the 13th most-cited scientist among the 2.5 to 3.0 million authors in all disciplines throughout the world who published articles in scientific journals."
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that's a bunch of left leaning garbage.  How many times has he been on foxnews? (this is sarcasm)

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Now things are different.  A slight majority adults have been vaccinated.
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But that's not really true.  Only 40% of the population have a single shot (51% of adults), and certainly we are not anywhere close to a majority 2+ weeks past 2nd shot (currently at 26% of population, 33% of adults).

The virus is surging in many areas.  My city is at near all-time highs for daily case rate.  Various mandates are still warranted IMO.

 
The Z Machine said:
But that's not really true.  Only 40% of the population have a single shot (51% of adults), and certainly we are not anywhere close to a majority 2+ weeks past 2nd shot (currently at 26% of population, 33% of adults).
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This is quibbling.  As you know, the first shot provides really good immunity after 12-14 days.  And regardless of how you define "majority of adults" or "vaccinated," we'll be there easily by Memorial Day.  That's right around the corner in relative terms.

But that's beside the point.  I'm more interested in addressing the "But hey, what's the downside?" argument, which is a bad one.

 
The Z Machine said:
I honestly don't believe this.  There are very few subject matter experts worldwide on any topic that make 10s of millions of dollars that are not C-level executives.  I would be very interested where you're getting your info from here to make this claim.

This is what you said previous.  You said "7 or 8 figures".  6 figures = $100,000+, 7 figures = $1,000,000+.  8 figures = $10,000,000.  These are orders of magnitudes apart.  2x $1,000,000 = $2,000,000 = still 7 figures.  2x $400,000 = $800,000 = six figures.
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Fauci is one of the most esteemed physicians in this country, and his position is pretty much the pinnacle for an infectious disease/public health official. Although pharmaceutical shills can earn much more, academic clinician-researchers aren’t in it for the pay.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
But that's beside the point.  I'm more interested in addressing the "But hey, what's the downside?" argument, which is a bad one.
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Only for people who choose to be PITA about trivial things. You compare it to wearing green, I place it above smoking indoors. I hope they make a pandemic movie about this for our children one day. Prior pandemic movies have clearly been farcical.

 
Dodger fans, you can now show your vaccine card and sit in a section reserved just for people who have been vaccinated!

But you still have to wear your mask.   :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 
IvanKaramazov said:
The framing of this question is backwards.  If you're going to tell other adults how to live their lives, the burden is on you to demonstrate a compelling reason for doing so.

Six months ago, that was easy.  We had a novel virus careening through the population, killing some, hospitalizing a bunch more, and inflicting long-term injury on a mostly-unknown number of survivors.  I was 100% in favor of mask mandates back then because of the clear and substantial public health benefits.

Now things are different.  A slight majority adults have been vaccinated.  By Memorial Day, the overwhelming majority of adults who aren't vaccinated will be unvaccinated by their own choice.  There's no evidence that vaccinated people are significant vectors of transmission and a growing body of evidence showing that they aren't.  The facts on the ground have changed, and it's about time for policy to change accordingly.  

"Everybody keep wearing a mask even though you're vaccinated" has very little downside, just like "Everybody wear green on St. Patrick's Day" has little downside, but we're not justified in mandating either.
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Except people aren't dying for what color they wear on ST. Patricks day.  We still have several hundred people dieing a day of Covid.  Think requiring masks until the overwhelming majority of adults who want a vaccine are fully vaccinated has no downside and can protect lives.  I don't understand the objection to a couple more months of mask wearing.

 
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Redwes25 said:
Except people aren't dying for what color they wear on ST. Patricks day.  We still have several hundred people dieing a day of Covid.  Think requiring masks until the overwhelming majority of adults who want a vaccine are fully vaccinated has no downside and can protect lives.  I don't understand the objection to a couple more months of mask wearing.
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If you're vaccinated, skipping the mask is about as dangerous as not wearing green.  Feel free to wear one if you want, but it's just a fashion accessory.  It's not protecting you or anyone else from anything.

The objection to mask wearing is "I don't feel like it."  Given that my decision has zero impact on anybody else, I don't need any further justification beyond that, any more than I need to justify to taste in clothing to anyone. 

Likewise, you don't need my approval to wear a mask.  Go for it.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
If you're vaccinated, skipping the mask is about as dangerous as not wearing green.  Feel free to wear one if you want, but it's just a fashion accessory.  It's not protecting you or anyone else from anything.

The objection to mask wearing is "I don't feel like it."  Given that my decision has zero impact on anybody else, I don't need any further justification beyond that, any more than I need to justify to taste in clothing to anyone. 

Likewise, you don't need my approval to wear a mask.  Go for it.
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You ok with peole being forced to show evidence of vaccination where ever they go?  Hearing huge objections on that as well and I personally would rather just have a mask mandate then forcing evidence of vaccination, which I don't like due to privacy concerns.

There are lots of people out there who will ditch the mask as soon as they can if no mandate.  Imagine there is a lot of overlap between those people and people who aren't going to get a vaccine.  We all know masks do a lot more to protect others then to protect the wearer since most folks aren't wearing true N95 masks.  I think protecting people who want to get a vaccine but aren't fully vaccinted has no downside at all and real benefits.  

 
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