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Government Response To The Coronavirus


James Daulton

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Godsbrother said:

These stats are very easy to find, Google is your friend.

 

googling "how many people have died from covid vaccines" 

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+people+have+died+from+covid+vaccines&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS935US935&oq=how+many+people+have+died+from+covid+vaccines&aqs=chrome..69i57.9805j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

which link shows the number of deaths from vaccines ?  can you show me please? because its very very easy to find the number of people allegedly dying from covid - you can get stats that breaks down country, states, counties and cities ............

no such data exists for deaths from vaccines

 

why ?

 

Quote

I may be wrong but it seems like you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none.

"we" have spent 18 months tracking covid-19 ........... someone is also tracking the deaths and the dangers from the vaccinations don't you agree ?

where is that data / information ? that's all I'm asking - it doesn't seem unreasonable and if its not being shared ..... makes me wonder why 

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

googling "how many people have died from covid vaccines" 

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+people+have+died+from+covid+vaccines&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS935US935&oq=how+many+people+have+died+from+covid+vaccines&aqs=chrome..69i57.9805j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

which link shows the number of deaths from vaccines ?  can you show me please? because its very very easy to find the number of people allegedly dying from covid - you can get stats that breaks down country, states, counties and cities ............

no such data exists for deaths from vaccines

 

why ?

Maybe because there aren’t any?

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1 hour ago, Godsbrother said:

The 3 deaths (out of more than 8 million) due to blood clots and the J&J vaccine were widely reported and the FDA suspended use of the drug for 3 weeks to analyze the risks.

Severe allergic reactions to Covid vaccines (VAERS) that result in death are about 2 to 5 per million.

These stats are very easy to find, Google is your friend.

 

I may be wrong but it seems like you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none.

ETA:  Oh wait, I see Tucker has been talking about this so now I understand where this is coming from...

I was wondering where this report was coming from but it all makes sense. I had a patient come in yesterday for his second Moderna shot and asked me if I knew how many of the 30,000 deaths from vaccines were Moderna. He mentioned it was a story on Fox News, so like any political conversation at work, I took a hands-off approach - ‘I’m not familiar with that specific report but I’ll have to look into it but to my knowledge...’. Interestingly he seemed to believe the report but was still getting the shot and was frustrated with everyone who wasn’t getting it. 

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3 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

From Dec. 14, 2020, through April 12, 2021, there were 3,005 reports of people who had died after receiving the COVID-19 vaccine, according to the CDC

 

I personally know a women, 61 years old, healthy, a nurse .......... got the vaccine, fell dead 3 days later. I'm uncertain if an autopsy was performed. 

If she'd have been diagnosed with covid and 3 days later died, she'd have been counted as a covid death

 

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9 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

From Dec. 14, 2020, through April 12, 2021, there were 3,005 reports of people who had died after receiving the COVID-19 vaccine, according to the CDC

You claim there is no data yet you quote the statistics proving it is being tracked by the CDC.   Assuming that 100% of the 3,000 deaths reported were due to the Covid vaccine then the death rate is incredibly low (less than 1/10000ths of a percent).

I guess I am not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. 

Is your claim the deep state is hiding something and people should not trust the vaccines?  

 

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

yes, those local ma and pa stores WERE closed - where did you live during the shutdowns that they wasn't shut down? They dang sure were here in Arkansas 

One state south of you. And we have a Democratic governor, to boot.

Those ma & pa stores up there were closed by Arkansas government action or on their own volition (which was common around here for a short time)? And for how long?

Consider also that Wal-Mart has A LOT of stroke in Arkansas, as you well know.
 

Quote

 

Correct, but they were not allowed because you don't want people congregating in one localized placed because it spreads disease

except Wal-Mart 

 

I don't know about the up there, but around here no one was "congregating" at any big-box retailers. "Congregating" implies "density" and especially "density that precludes distancing". That level of density in big retailers never happened here. You distanced and masked at Wal-Mart. And at the grocery. And at church, Etc. Etc. Many places did have lowered occupancy limits, but these were rarely met. "A bunch of masked people going shopping in a huge store, continuously bypassing one another" is not the same as "a bunch people side-by-side in pews for a length of time". The spatial and temporal parameters are very different.

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12 hours ago, tonydead said:

I don't think you understand who Walmarts business competitors are. All Best Buys shut down (yes some voluntarily).

Yet strangely, I was able to buy a new microwave at our local Best Buy in April 2020. And some new headphones for my son a few months after that. :shrug: Now, in April 2020 Best Buy insisted that customers ordered online and used curbside pickup once at the store. But that was a business decision on Best Buy's part to protect their employees before much was settled about COVID transmission. The Barnes and Noble and Michaels next door were still open at the time though judging by their parking lot, customers were staying away on their own.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

From Dec. 14, 2020, through April 12, 2021, there were 3,005 reports of people who had died after receiving the COVID-19 vaccine, according to the CDC

"After" <> "due to".

The cause-and-effect relationship must be established, not just assumed.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

yes, those local ma and pa stores WERE closed - where did you live during the shutdowns that they wasn't shut down? They dang sure were here in Arkansas 

Were those ma & pa stores closed by law or by their own volition? I ask because I have just read through some Arkansas state executive orders from March and April of last year that apparently allowed all types of retailers to remain open. Gyms, bars, restaurants, and indoor entertainment venues were eventually ordered to close indoor operations by E.O. 20-13 (4/4/2020), but that didn't affect retailers.

Now, these executive orders did mandate indoor masking and maintenance of social distancing. Might some small retailers chosen to close temporarily rather than hew to these mandates? Or else -- might some small retailers have closed voluntary and temporarily in response to a reduction in business rather than in response to a government mandate?

You live there, so I am happy to grant that you are plugged in to the local scene enough to explain what was happening on the ground. Where there some county and municipal level business closures? Did some businesses up there flout the state-level mandates and get dinged for it, leading to temporary closures?

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Those are just the Tucker Carlson talking points from this week with a personal anecdote thrown in. 

Get the vaccine. It prevents you from getting Covid-19, going to the hospital because of Covid-19, or dying from Covid-19. There are many societal benefits but those points will likely fall on deaf ears. 

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2 hours ago, Doug B said:

Consider also that Wal-Mart has A LOT of stroke in Arkansas, as you well know.

so money is what mattered - not safety - that's a truth

2 hours ago, Doug B said:

You distanced and masked at Wal-Mart. And at the grocery. And at church, Etc. Etc. Many places did have lowered occupancy limits, but these were rarely met.

grocery stores closed, churches closed, schools closed - everywhere that closed could have limited occupancy and distanced and masked and cleaned

many were not given a chance to do what Wal-mart did - the "powers that be" decided billionaires that own Wal-mart and Lowes etc could stay open even though it defied the logics of stopping congregating that was used to shut down so many other things

 

 

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2 hours ago, Doug B said:

"After" <> "due to".

The cause-and-effect relationship must be established, not just assumed.

lets do probable like they count covid deaths

fair ?

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1 hour ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

Those are just the Tucker Carlson talking points from this week with a personal anecdote thrown in. 

Get the vaccine. It prevents you from getting Covid-19, going to the hospital because of Covid-19, or dying from Covid-19. There are many societal benefits but those points will likely fall on deaf ears. 

Are you sure? These aren't phrased in the form of questions.

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34 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

so money is what mattered - not safety - that's a truth

So goes the world. But I pointed that out to demonstrate that what you saw may have been narrowly localized.

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35 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

Grocery stores closed, churches closed, schools closed - everywhere that closed could have limited occupancy and distanced and masked and cleaned

Churches and schools I will grant -- though note that those are not for-profit entities and thus are a different matter from closing businesses.

But can you cite for me anything about local grocery store closures by government fiat in your area? Or closure of other retail? Was there any local news coverage? If not, can you help me research the mandates or laws that might have forced groceries and retailers closed in your area? I'd need to at least know what county you are in. Maybe the nearest sizeable town? Heck, saying something like "NW Ark", "Central Ark", "The Little Rock metro area", "across the Miss River from Memphis", etc. should be enough.

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39 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

lets do probable like they count covid deaths

fair ?

Nope -- no comparisons. Things stand on their own in this debate. "Someone else did it wrong" is not a defense.

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2 hours ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

Those are just the Tucker Carlson talking points from this week with a personal anecdote thrown in. 

Get the vaccine. It prevents you from getting Covid-19, going to the hospital because of Covid-19, or dying from Covid-19. There are many societal benefits but those points will likely fall on deaf ears. 

It's disturbing what an outsized influence that guy is having right now.  Every morning while catching up on the news, I read what new, outrageous thing Carlson said the night prior.  Without fail, I have a few co-workers reciting it like the gospel to anyone who will listen later in the day.

His crusade against the vaccines is particularly disgusting.  It's especially devious the way he frames everything about it as a question, yet his audience is spreading as factual statement.

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On 5/6/2021 at 8:32 AM, IvanKaramazov said:

Punishing the companies that produced super-effective vaccines using new technology in record time seems like arguably the single worst policy decision we could possibly make.  Okay, "nuke the world" would be worse, but this is probably the worst policy call that a well-intentioned person might make while thinking that they're doing the right thing.

I would like it noted for record that Zvi is apparently stealing my bit.

Quote

What’s The Worst Possible Thing You Could Do?

If you’re the President of the United States, in terms of actual impact the answer is presumably ‘launch all the nuclear warheads.’ 

If one restricts to the pandemic, the answer would be to sabotage vaccine production and distribution. Nothing else comes close. One could plausibly argue that nothing else even much matters.

He goes on to catalog all the ways the government has succeeded in messing up vaccination, with the proposed IP waiver being the cherry on top.

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How is this "fraudulent covid counts" meme still a thing?  We have PILES of data and information to the contrary now, yet people still continue with the narrative?  To what end?  To be "like the flu" or some other nonsense?  I don't get it.

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

How is this "fraudulent covid counts" meme still a thing?  We have PILES of data and information to the contrary now, yet people still continue with the narrative?  To what end?  To be "like the flu" or some other nonsense?  I don't get it.

Because being wrong is worse and it means you have to call into question how you got there.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Because being wrong is worse and it means you have to call into question how you got there.

The slope these people are on is very steep.  Way easier for them to just keep going down

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

How is this "fraudulent covid counts" meme still a thing?  We have PILES of data and information to the contrary now, yet people still continue with the narrative?  To what end?  To be "like the flu" or some other nonsense?  I don't get it.

Some people lie.  a lot.  about everything.  

 

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Wash your hands? Jesus. How can that be the very first best practice listed? What is wrong with public death, err i mean health? Are they really that stubborn? 

The entirety of the state of Michigan is currently under the same public health guidance and restrictions, but there may be more restrictive or specific guidelines issued by local governing authorities. Individuals should contact their local health department or check their website for more information.

Continue following best practices

Wash your hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds.

Maintain at least 6ft distance from other people whenever you are out of your household.

Wear a mask in all public settings to prevent spread of infection

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Posted (edited)

I'm a little late to the patent waiver discussion, but just wanted to throw in my two cents as a patent attorney. The devil is always in the details and there are no details on patent waiver yet because this is still all talk. But, assuming any patent rights that may be waived  are specific to Covid-19 and not some of the underlying techniques, the pharma companies aren't likely to lose money on covid vaccines due to loss of patent.

First, I'd be shocked if they have any patents specific to covid vaccines yet. Maybe they got rushed through the PTO, but pharma patents typically take years to get allowed. By the time the US patents get allowed, most people in the US who will get vaccinated will already have been vaccinated, so a patent isn't really the profit motive in the US.

Second, even if US patents issue soon and if we start shipping vaccines to other countries, other countries typically don't/can't pay the same rates US insurers and/or governments pay for medicine. And US patents don't stop somebody else from building a factory in some other country for distribution outside the US. 

And, even if this ends up as a vaccine that we get yearly so that were still administering lots of it in 10 years in the US, removing the patent rights isn't going to enable just anybody to make the vaccine for cheap. Tons of off patent drugs are super expensive and produce enormous profits because there are a limited number of companies that have the resources and expertise to produce them. 

Patents can be good and can incentivize research, but there is still plenty of monetary incentive to develop vaccines in a pandemic without them. 

Edited by FBG26
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Conservatives and Trump supporters have been arguing for months now that we are over counting COVID deaths. But a study just released from the University of Washington is reporting that we are undercounting them- and that the actual number of people who died is around 900,000. 

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As far as the patent question goes: millions of people around the world continue to be threatened by this terrible disease: in India, Turkey, the Third World. If Biden’s proposal will make a significant difference in helping these people I’m for it. Nothing else matters. If it won’t make a difference then I’m against it for all the reasons already stated. But we need to do what we can to help. 

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

Conservatives and Trump supporters have been arguing for months now that we are over counting COVID deaths. But a study just released from the University of Washington is reporting that we are undercounting them- and that the actual number of people who died is around 900,000. 

A link would be helpful

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On 5/6/2021 at 11:23 AM, IvanKaramazov said:

Guy gets rich from making a video game about shooting zombies -- great.

Guy gets rich from throwing 15-yard outs -- great.

Guy gets rich from filming a movie about superheroes -- great.

Guy gets rich from producing a drug that saves millions of lives and gets the world economy unstuck -- PROFITEERING

Amazing what can happen with that profit motive out there.  If that incentive got the vaccine out there even one week earlier, well worth it. 

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On 5/7/2021 at 12:46 PM, Doug B said:

Churches and schools I will grant -- though note that those are not for-profit entities and thus are a different matter from closing businesses.

But can you cite for me anything about local grocery store closures by government fiat in your area? Or closure of other retail? Was there any local news coverage? If not, can you help me research the mandates or laws that might have forced groceries and retailers closed in your area? I'd need to at least know what county you are in. Maybe the nearest sizeable town? Heck, saying something like "NW Ark", "Central Ark", "The Little Rock metro area", "across the Miss River from Memphis", etc. should be enough.

so now we've come to talking about how a non-profit is different from a for-profit when determining who to ask to close for a pandemic ?

I thought it was about saving lives and safety ?

 

Do you even remember the mandates? I was essential employee and for a few weeks there, I was one of the very few people driving the highways. Grocery stores were open limited hours, restaurants had closed, many places had including schools, churches, gyms, ..... it was like a ghost town.

For big retailers, they could absorb that 6-8 weeks of lost revenue and then continued weeks of lower revenue. Many small businesses didn't. 

https://www.aymag.com/restaurant-openings-and-closings-in-little-rock/

key word search "closed" and you will see a few - but drive the highways and look at the empty buildings - we've lost a lot of small businesses 

but how many Wal-marts were closed? McDonalds? Lowes? Home Depot? bigger grocery store chains ?

 

 

and I understand "essential" .... but that said, allowing large numbers of people in and out of one location everyday is NOT how to tackle a pandemic and stop the spread of a virus and when you stop some places from allowing gatherings but allow it in others - that double standard shines

remember - we did all that with covid deaths at 40,000 or 50,000

 

 

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On 5/7/2021 at 12:47 PM, Doug B said:

Nope -- no comparisons. Things stand on their own in this debate. "Someone else did it wrong" is not a defense.

where were you the last few months demanding answers and asking tough questions on how covid deaths were counted?

maybe you were and I don't remember .... but you sure seem like you're saying the numbers were all wrong on covid deaths, am I right?

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On 5/6/2021 at 11:03 AM, Doug B said:
On 5/6/2021 at 10:44 AM, Stealthycat said:

Wal-Mart and Lowes and Home Depot etc made billions off the pandemic by lobbying to stay open while at the same time killing their competition with laws that shut those businesses down

Did not happen. Competitors to Wal-Mart, Lowes, etc. absolutely stayed open in the U.S. I don't believe ANY retail of any type was shut down anywhere in the U.S.

Eye on the ball ... the part in red is what we're trying to establish. Wal-Mart and Lowe's and Home Depot's competition. Killed (or even closed for a time) by laws. Not churches, restaurants, non-profits, etc., etc., etc. 

You're bringing up everything but Wal-Mart and Lowe's and Home Depot's competition. You have the option to withdraw or recast your original point above from 5/6 if it doesn't accurately reflect your take.

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:
On 5/7/2021 at 12:47 PM, Doug B said:

Nope -- no comparisons. Things stand on their own in this debate. "Someone else did it wrong" is not a defense.

where were you the last few months demanding answers and asking tough questions on how covid deaths were counted?

Irrelevant -- your original point:

"Wal-Mart and Lowes and Home Depot etc made billions off the pandemic by lobbying to stay open while at the same time killing their competition with laws that shut those businesses down"

... stand or falls regardless of my actions.

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2 hours ago, Doug B said:

Irrelevant -- your original point:

"Wal-Mart and Lowes and Home Depot etc made billions off the pandemic by lobbying to stay open while at the same time killing their competition with laws that shut those businesses down"

... stand or falls regardless of my actions.

https://www.aarp.org/money/credit-loans-debt/info-2020/bankrupt-retail-chain-store-list-is-growing.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/which-major-retail-companies-have-filed-bankruptcy-coronavirus-pandemic-hit-n1207866

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/15/these-retailers-are-closing-stores-to-slow-coronavirus-outbreak.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanziger/2020/04/03/retail-companies-on-death-watch-is-growing-fast-as-covid-19-puts-non-essential-retailers-on-life-support/?sh=3a99a34525ea

 

 

The point remains - nobody fights a pandemic, the spreading of a disease, by allowing the largest retailer to stay open and them be the focal point for everyone's shopping needs

That's literally NOT what you'd want 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
3 hours ago, Doug B said:

Irrelevant -- your original point:

"Wal-Mart and Lowes and Home Depot etc made billions off the pandemic by lobbying to stay open while at the same time killing their competition with laws that shut those businesses down"

... stand or falls regardless of my actions.

(four links redacted for space - db)

The point remains - nobody fights a pandemic, the spreading of a disease, by allowing the largest retailer to stay open and them be the focal point for everyone's shopping needs

Where's the part about "killing their competition with laws"? The "with laws" part is pretty fundamental to your original take -- why do you keep veering away from it?

Side note:
BTW, almost all** those retailers were in deep trouble for years and were already closing locations before the pandemic. The AARP article is especially disingenuous -- they've got some February 2020 bankruptcy filings listed in an article about bankruptcies that happened during the pandemic. Furthermore -- no cause and effect is established. If a big retailer happened to file bankruptcy in 2020, I guess that was good enough to file it under "pandemic bankruptcy".

Additionally, bankruptcy doesn't mean "going out of business" or "closing up forever". Most of the retailers in those links simply reorganized their debts under bankruptcy protection and remained open.

** actually, I think all were in trouble pre-2020 (if not pre-2018, even), but I didn't research them all individually. Before the pandemic, Amazon and online retail were considered the big bugaboos that were hurting big brick-&-mortar retail. Of course, the pandemic HAS been a huge boon to Amazon ... and Wal-Mart's online retail space.

 

Edited by Doug B
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4 hours ago, Doug B said:

Irrelevant -- your original point:

"Wal-Mart and Lowes and Home Depot etc made billions off the pandemic by lobbying to stay open while at the same time killing their competition with laws that shut those businesses down"

... stand or falls regardless of my actions.

I dont think that is too controversial of a statement. Big box retailers like Walmart and even home depot are kind of do it all centers. I mean home depot sells curtains. I dont think the mom and pop curtain store was allowed to stay open. Walmart sells luggage. The luggage store wasnt allowed to stay open. Kohl's is a competitor of Walmart in some ways and had to close in some places. Walmart sells crafting supplies. Michels and Jo-ann had to close. So did the yarn and crochet store near me. Then while these stores were closed we gave people tons of money to go spend. Further giving an advantage to some. 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I dont think that is too controversial of a statement. Big box retailers like Walmart and even home depot are kind of do it all centers. I mean home depot sells curtains. I don't think the mom and pop curtain store was allowed to stay open. Walmart sells luggage. The luggage store wasn't allowed to stay open. Kohl's is a competitor of Walmart in some ways and had to close in some places. Walmart sells crafting supplies. Micheals and Jo-ann had to close. So did the yarn and crochet store near me. Then while these stores were closed we gave people tons of money to go spend. Further giving an advantage to some. 

I dispute that the parts in red happened due to laws being passed shutting these places down. It may well have happened somewhere, but I'd need to see the law that's said to have caused the closures.

FWIW, our Michaels and Jo-Ann Fabrics never closed at any point, though in truth both are also big-box retailers.

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3 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I dispute that the parts in red happened due to laws being passed shutting these places down. It may well have happened somewhere, but I'd need to see the law that's said to have caused the closures.

FWIW, our Michaels and Jo-Ann Fabrics never closed at any point, though in truth both are also big-box retailers.

Google down?  Takes 5 seconds.   Page 4, fabric and craft stores - Nonessential. 

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Other localities are also reacting to the issue of what’s essential. Several weeks ago, a Dallas county judge issued cease-and-desist orders to Hobby Lobby, requiring it to close its stores within his jurisdiction. “I just want to make it clear to Hobby Lobby and anybody who is foolish enough to follow in their footsteps,” he was quoted as saying in the Dallas News, adding “that in Dallas County, the government—and 99.9% of the business community—puts public health over profits.”

Hobby Lobby had attracted much attention earlier when its owner was reported as saying the store was staying open after his wife received a message from God instructing them to do so.

 

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7 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Google down?  Takes 5 seconds.   Page 4, fabric and craft stores - Nonessential. 

I think he's distinguishing "laws being passed" from an emergency order from a City's director of public health, which is what you just linked.   

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