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Government Response To The Coronavirus


James Daulton

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51 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Can you please post an example of a fully vaccinated person transmitting the virus? 

Thanks. 

can you post proof that they haven't?  

the studies show a decreased viral load.  that should decrease transmission.  i have yet to see any study or any reputable source say it eliminates any possibility of transmission,  or makes tonydead's ridiculous claim that vaccinated people infected with the virus dont carry the virus.  that's beyond nonsense.

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11 minutes ago, -fish- said:

can you post proof that they haven't?  

the studies show a decreased viral load.  that should decrease transmission.  i have yet to see any study or any reputable source say it eliminates any possibility of transmission,  or makes tonydead's ridiculous claim that vaccinated people infected with the virus dont carry the virus.  that's beyond nonsense.

I think you are both right.  You can still get covid after vaccination.  The decreased viral load means that is much more unlikely to cause death.  At some point we will know more about how effective the vaccines are and how the virus is transmitted.  There is also the idea that a virus that kills about 1-2 percent of its victims before the vaccine is something to freak out all the time about.(and i am someone vulnerable to covid and wear a mask in public up to this day)  To give you an idea all the people who have died in America from Covid i think i read somewhere equals the number of people who die from cancer each year and Covid is like 14 months now.  But i am not sure keeping schools closed and churches closed is the right thing either....

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16 minutes ago, -fish- said:

can you post proof that they haven't?  

the studies show a decreased viral load.  that should decrease transmission.  i have yet to see any study or any reputable source say it eliminates any possibility of transmission,  or makes tonydead's ridiculous claim that vaccinated people infected with the virus dont carry the virus.  that's beyond nonsense.

Did you know that most people that arent vaccinated and test positive dont transmit to a single other person? 

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28 minutes ago, NightStalkers said:

 Intelligence is not always about your jobs.  I have done IT for over 20 years.  A buddy of mine used to be an auto mechanic i got him to be an IT guy.  Doctors/IT guys/mechanics basically do the same thing, troubleshooting.  Ever notice when an IT guy, or a mechanic, or a doctor do when you meet them?  They ask a ton of questions.  Each has gone through training in their field but the essentially do the same thing.  A Doctor takes longer to get good at but the intelligence is not all that different.  Do you want Fauci protecting you from a cyber attack?  Do you want Fauci  installing pistons in your car's engine?  Do you want the auto mechanic to be doing your open heart surgery?

People make mistakes that can cause pain or death, they may not be intentional or they could be just be lazy.  Intelligence is how you use the skills you are born with and the ability to learn and retain not by what job you have.

That’s not the point.  People continue to thrash the dude because they disagree with his viewpoints (or don’t understand the priority of his actual job).  By all accounts the guy has been exceptionally his entire life and is clearly a very intelligent guy.  None of that makes him faultless or frees him from making mistakes but the bashing and politicizing is comical.  Lots of keyboard warrior genius’s* who all know more then one of the most respected people in their field IMO.  
 

 

*not calling you this, just speaking in generalities.  

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5 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

That’s not the point.  People continue to thrash the dude because they disagree with his viewpoints (or don’t understand the priority of his actual job).  By all accounts the guy has been exceptionally his entire life and is clearly a very intelligent guy.  None of that makes him faultless or frees him from making mistakes but the bashing and politicizing is comical.  Lots of keyboard warrior genius’s* who all know more then one of the most respected people in their field IMO.  
 

 

*not calling you this, just speaking in generalities.  

i understand no offense taken.  The problem is that there hasn't been any real investigation into how this started.  There are some documents on US Govt websites that point to HHS for paying for Covid research to EcoHealth alliance.  The company president admits hiring the lab in Wuhan in youtube videos.  Whether it is the possibly dangerous gain of function testing or not is still up for debate.  

One thing i don't understand is how everyone feels he is always right.  He has been in the same position for 3 different presidents.  Certainly the US has more than one guy that can do the job.  No human being is always right not matter how smart you are.  And i have heard it from his mouth that we should be having kids back in schools.  But we don't have that all over the country. Why? Is it because he is not right or is because of politics.  He should stand up and say it  one way or the other.  He should have said back a year ago that hey we don't have enough masks so stay home and until the supply gets ramped up.  Instead CDC said you didn't need a mask at first.  This constant redefinition by Fauci/CDC/Biden/Trump of facts are BS.  To me technically if i read how things are organized the CDC director in any adminstration should be the final voice for reccomendations on diseases like this in the Executive branch to the president.

And no matter what Executive and Legslative branches should be having tons of people investigating how this got started to prevent the next time.  What if covid had been Ebola instead?  We could be talking 100 million deaths from something like that.  I say that for the last 3 Presidents and the congress since SARS/MERS whichever came first.

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why does transmission from breakthrough cases matter?  because breakthrough cases may be driven by variants:

"One important line of investigation is how big a role variants or mutated versions of the initial coronavirus play in these breakthrough cases. Research suggests the current vaccines may be somewhat less effective against some new variants.

Martha Sharan, a CDC spokesperson, said the agency is now urging states to use genetic sequencing to test virus specimens from patients with breakthrough cases to identify variants. In Washington state, for instance, eight variants were detected in the genetic sequencing of nine breakout cases reported through April 3."

https://khn.org/news/article/the-shock-and-reality-of-catching-covid-after-being-vaccinated/

 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, NightStalkers said:

i understand no offense taken.  The problem is that there hasn't been any real investigation into how this started.  There are some documents on US Govt websites that point to HHS for paying for Covid research to EcoHealth alliance.  The company president admits hiring the lab in Wuhan in youtube videos.  Whether it is the possibly dangerous gain of function testing or not is still up for debate.  

One thing i don't understand is how everyone feels he is always right.  He has been in the same position for 3 different presidents.  Certainly the US has more than one guy that can do the job.  No human being is always right not matter how smart you are.  And i have heard it from his mouth that we should be having kids back in schools.  But we don't have that all over the country. Why? Is it because he is not right or is because of politics.  He should stand up and say it  one way or the other.  He should have said back a year ago that hey we don't have enough masks so stay home and until the supply gets ramped up.  Instead CDC said you didn't need a mask at first.  This constant redefinition by Fauci/CDC/Biden/Trump of facts are BS.  To me technically if i read how things are organized the CDC director in any adminstration should be the final voice for reccomendations on diseases like this in the Executive branch to the president.

And no matter what Executive and Legslative branches should be having tons of people investigating how this got started to prevent the next time.  What if covid had been Ebola instead?  We could be talking 100 million deaths from something like that.  I say that for the last 3 Presidents and the congress since SARS/MERS whichever came first.

You and I are generally in agreement about the need to investigate, absent the US involved in the gain of function at Wuhan.  But  the answer to your bolded question is the bolded after.  And that’s my point when it comes to Fauci. Yes he made mistakes specifically with the facemasks in the beginning, but for chrissakes it’s a generational pandemic that no one alive has been through before.  Add in a POTUS not inclined to listen and it’s a recipe for disaster. But the politics of it now have him completely ostracized by a large faction of our country. To your point he was picked by the last three presidents for a reason. He’s pretty ####### capable is why. Fauci is not the villain here, far from it. 

Your last paragraph I couldn’t agree with more. 

Edited by dkp993
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2 hours ago, NightStalkers said:

Something the Wade article brought up was location.  The virus that can be found in the bats is caves in Southern China.  Wuhan is over 1500KM from these caves.  Another thing is time of the year.  When it first appeared in Wuhan the bats would have been already in hibernation.  Another thing that bothers me about Fauci is why no one asks him why it so unlikely that it could come from a lab?  Why is ok for the EcoHealth Alliance to hire out the Wuhan Lab for testing (be it gain of function or not) and then support the idea that when WHO goes to investigate it brings along the Eco Health alliance president to be the only American with access to be on the team?  This is like having Sean Hannity investigate the Trump election result...

It’s the definition of corruption.  We’ve gotten so used to it that it doesn’t even register as a problem anymore.

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

You and I are generally in agreement about the need to investigate, absent the US involved in the gain of function at Wuhan.  But  the answer to your bolded question is the bolded after.  And that’s my point when it comes to Fauci. Yes he made mistakes specifically with the facemasks in the beginning, but for chrissakes it’s a generational pandemic that no one alive has been through before.  Add in a POTUS not inclined to listen and it’s a recipe for disaster. But the politics of it now have him completely ostracized by a large faction of our country. To your point he was picked by the last three presidents for a reason. He’s pretty ####### capable here’s why. Fauci is not the villain here, far from it. 

Your last paragraph I couldn’t agree with more. 

I don't think he is a villan but he has said things at different times that were somewhat or wholly opposite.  The School thing i have seen him say we should have kids in schools, especially after teachers are vaccinated.  He should be standing up and saying despite all the guidance from CDC that is pretty much getting some of it's language from the AFT.  The FOIA basically showed the CDC took some of the language directly from the AFT emails.  Either it is safe for kids to go back to school or not.  Fauci should be saying either it is safe or it isn't.  Screw the politics or the special interest groups it is either safe or not and if it is safe the force the schools open.

The worse thing it is the poorest kids who suffer the worst.  Do you really think that any of these congress or executive branch  officials don't have their kids in private schools right now?  Do any presidents ever send their kids to public schools in DC?  I can't remember one.  

Basically what i am saying he should be plainly speaking on the school issue.  And Biden should listen to what he says and do it or fire him.  Even if he reccomends keeping schools closed if Biden doesn't  listen to him then why is he there?  He should plainly speak and answer questions and just say the absolute truth as he knows it despite having Biden/Dems or Trump/Reps breathing down his neck.  This thing about Govt employees not saying what is the absolute truth is dangerous.  Look at the bounties on soldiers in Afghanistan.  While Trump was president that was reported as the holy writ.  Biden becomes president and now it is low value/confidence intelligence.  Tell the truth no matter what party is in power the alternatives are as dangerous as war or pandemics.  And i never voted for Trump...

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We've known since the very early stages of vaccine development that none of these vaccines are 100% effective.  Breakthrough cases exist and will continue to exist for quite some time.  Also, people occasionally get attacked by sharks, struck by lightning, etc.  Those public health threats should rank about as high on our collective level of concern as breakthrough covid infections.  

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"We should all keep wearing masks because of breakthrough cases" is approximately the same statement as "We need to harden the East Omaha Mall because what if Al Qaeda strikes again."  In both cases, basic numeracy is losing out to the availability heuristic.

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8 hours ago, -fish- said:

can you post proof that they haven't?  

the studies show a decreased viral load.  that should decrease transmission.  i have yet to see any study or any reputable source say it eliminates any possibility of transmission,  or makes tonydead's ridiculous claim that vaccinated people infected with the virus dont carry the virus.  that's beyond nonsense.

:lmao:. You cant read. Link to where I said that please. 

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7 hours ago, -fish- said:

why does transmission from breakthrough cases matter?  because breakthrough cases may be driven by variants:

"One important line of investigation is how big a role variants or mutated versions of the initial coronavirus play in these breakthrough cases. Research suggests the current vaccines may be somewhat less effective against some new variants.

 

May be?  

0.008% breakouts include varients, which the vaccines are very effective against. It's like you are willing this to be worse than it is. 

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1 minute ago, jobarules said:

5 coaches

This seems like the kind of thing that warrants further investigation.  The probability of five breakthrough cases occurring in the same little circle by chance is staggeringly small, but then again there are a very large number of little circles out there so maybe we should expect to see one or two events like this if we look across the whole population.  

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22 hours ago, Biff84 said:

Large gatherings in large places. Big box stores offer many services in one place. Image if it was flipped and only the small businesses were open. You may need to go to 5 different stores to get everything you needed. And since the big box stores were closed everyone else is trying crowd into these much smaller stores. Social distancing would be impossible and capacity restrictions would be extremely restrictive. Now imagine that you find out your COVID positive and just went to those 5 stores in a crowded environment during a time when masks were not readily available.

Not everything is a conspiracy theory, some things just take critical thinking. I can go to a big box store, wear a mask the entire time and keep 6 feet away everyone most of the time while not staying around the same people for very long. Can you say that about churches, schools and restaurants?

 

so large gatherings were never the issue - it was going multiple places during the day that was ? 

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21 hours ago, Doug B said:

As a matter of fact ... yes. WalMart (and other big box retailers) being open was generally not a health hazard. At least around here, it's nothing to put 1,000 (maybe 1,500 or more) people in a WalMart with sufficient social distance.

In practice, WalMart stores are cavernous and rarely ever get THAT crowded inside where you can't maintain personal space. Six feet is a piece of cake. Even ten to twelve, IMHO.

would putting 1,000 into a similar size building for a church service or concert or sporting event been ok then ?

no - CDC said no gatherings didn't they ?

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10 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
21 hours ago, Doug B said:

As a matter of fact ... yes. WalMart (and other big box retailers) being open was generally not a health hazard. At least around here, it's nothing to put 1,000 (maybe 1,500 or more) people in a WalMart with sufficient social distance.

In practice, WalMart stores are cavernous and rarely ever get THAT crowded inside where you can't maintain personal space. Six feet is a piece of cake. Even ten to twelve, IMHO.

would putting 1,000 into a similar size building for a church service or concert or sporting event been ok then ?

I just laid out the reasons why big-box retailers rightly didn't have to hew to the same capacity requirements as churches, concerts, etc. All "gatherings" weren't thrown into one hat and considered all the same.

Nuance matters. Things don't all fall into neat one-size boxes. And it's OK that things don't all fall into neat one-size boxes. It's OK that rules differ among differing things.

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52 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

This seems like the kind of thing that warrants further investigation.  The probability of five breakthrough cases occurring in the same little circle by chance is staggeringly small, but then again there are a very large number of little circles out there so maybe we should expect to see one or two events like this if we look across the whole population.  

Plus, it matter A LOT how these coaches are experiencing their infections. Did they get laid low? Do they just have annoying symptoms that got IDed as COVID only upon a test? Do they feel fine, and would have never known they were infected without a test?

That kind of stuff matters -- if vaccinated people end up with COVID, but the infection is mild or even unnoticed ... the vaccine is still doing its job and is still effective.

The vaccine doesn't insta-kill coronaviruses as they land on your epithelium. The vaccine gets your body to make in advance as many antibodies as it can**, AND this process helps your bodies T-cells "remember" how to make more coronavirus antibodies when needed. There is a lag between (a) when the virus gets into your body (breathed in typically, settling in the nasal passages or bronchi) and (b) the time your vaccine-initiated antibodies get to work. And if your particular immune system was below average before your vaccination, maybe your body's post-vaccine response to the coronavirus virions is somewhat dampened compared to others' post-vaccine response. Not dampened enough to where you get badly ill and all that ... just dampened enough so that the virions have a little time to multiply and show up on a PCR test before getting wiped out by your immune system in the end.

** and this ability to manufacture antibodies varies a lot from person to person like so many other human traits.

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2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I just laid out the reasons why big-box retailers rightly didn't have to hew to the same capacity requirements as churches, concerts, etc. All "gatherings" weren't thrown into one hat and considered all the same.

Nuance matters. Things don't all fall into neat one-size boxes. And it's OK that things don't all fall into neat one-size boxes. It's OK that rules differ among differing things.

you are justifying the actions and I get that ....but the fact remains that there was massive hypocritical decisions made and the big money businesses won bigtime and small businesses lost bigtime. its insane to say nobody can gather because of the danger ... and then also say with the exception of Lowes, Home Depot, Wal-mart, Costco etc.   if it was about saving lives, if it was about large gatherings, Wal-mart and all the others would have been shut down. Those ARE large gatherings - so obviously that's wasn't the issue at all so what was the intent and goal?

I know people will disagree with that, but the hypocritical decisions remain true. Its like leaders saying don't travel and then getting on a plane and going on a trip. 

and through it all, we ended up with 500,000 + more attributed deaths, 25 million more cases of covid, tens of thousands of closed businesses, millions lost their jobs and 7 trillion added to the debt, not to mention the damages done on many other levels

that's not a success to me - that's a massive massive failure IMO

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

That kind of stuff matters -- if vaccinated people end up with COVID, but the infection is mild or even unnoticed ... the vaccine is still doing its job and is still effective.

wow

just wow

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3 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
6 minutes ago, Doug B said:

That kind of stuff matters -- if vaccinated people end up with COVID, but the infection is mild or even unnoticed ... the vaccine is still doing its job and is still effective.

wow

just wow

How do you think vaccines work? They prime a person's immune system to produce antibodies to a specific pathogen, and in doing so help "train" a person's immune system to make antibodies later in response to that same pathogen.

Individuals' immune system vary widely in robustness, timeliness of response, etc. Given that, it follows logically that in some vaccinated people -- even with the help of the vaccine-generated response -- a virus can gain a short-lived foothold. This foothold, if someone takes a PCR test at the right moment, will show up as a positive COVID test.

In a very small number of unfortunate others ... their immune systems don't really respond to the vaccine at all and thus remain at risk for the worst effects of COVID.

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10 hours ago, -fish- said:

can you post proof that they haven't?  

It's just about impossible to prove a negative like this.  It's a logical flaw to ask a question like this.

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

?

He's obviously right.

The JNJ vaccine is an example of this - not spectacular in terms of outright immunity, but reduced case severity to the point that there were no hospitalizations at all.  In my mind, that's a great vaccine.

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vac·cine

a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

But that's not the full story. Some vaccines eliminate a virus almost totally. Two infectious diseases have successfully been eradicated: smallpox and rinderpest through vaccines. Others like influenza, remain regardless of vaccines.

 

How was the covid vaccines sold to the American public and what is the true nature of them?  What % of the United States have gotten this fast moving, easily contractible deadly virus? 

If people are getting vaccines and getting covid anyway and the numbers are around the same (as far as getting sick vs really bad sick etc) ..... I mean, what's the vaccination for again ?  

remember what % of the USA have died, what age groups they were and the obesity factor and underlying conditions factor too

 

all that matters

 

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

If people are getting vaccines and getting covid anyway and the numbers are around the same (as far as getting sick vs really bad sick etc) ..... I mean, what's the vaccination for again ?  

We know that if you get vaccinated, a) the probability that you contract covid-19 is tremendously reduced to something just slightly north of zero, b) the probability that you fall seriously ill to covid-19 is reduced to something indistinguishable from zero, and c) your ability to pass covid-19 on to others is reduced by a very large but as-yet undetermined amount.  

Those things are all great reasons to get vaccinated.

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

If people are getting vaccines and getting covid anyway and the numbers are around the same (as far as getting sick vs really bad sick etc) ..... I mean, what's the vaccination for again ?  

The rate at which this is happening is 0.008%, including variants.  The vaccine is phenomenally effective.  Those that haven't got it should and we should be 100% wide open and back to life as normal. 

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1 minute ago, Stealthycat said:

If people are getting vaccines and getting covid anyway and the numbers are around the same (as far as getting sick vs really bad sick etc) ..... I mean, what's the vaccination for again?

The part in red is the hang-up. It's that pesky "nuance" thing again.

Are vaccinated people sometimes "getting COVID anyway"? Yes, as explained above.

Are vaccinated people sometimes "getting sick from COVID anyway"? Yes, as explained above.

Are vaccinated people sometimes "getting really bad sick from COVID anyway"? Yes, as explained above.

HOWEVER ...

Are the post-vaccination "numbers around the same"? Heck, no! Not nearly. The numbers across the board are sharply reduced. Far fewer infections. Far fewer instances of noticeable sickness. Far fewer instances of serious illness.

All of that, rolled into a burrito, is what a vaccine is supposed to do.

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5 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

We know that if you get vaccinated, a) the probability that you contract covid-19 is tremendously reduced to something just slightly north of zero, b) the probability that you fall seriously ill to covid-19 is reduced to something indistinguishable from zero, and c) your ability to pass covid-19 on to others is reduced by a very large but as-yet undetermined amount.  

Those things are all great reasons to get vaccinated.

Except we do know C, because unless some extreme conditions exist like french kissing multiple partners at the same time, you need A first to do C.  

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

We know that if you get vaccinated, a) the probability that you contract covid-19 is tremendously reduced to something just slightly north of zero, b) the probability that you fall seriously ill to covid-19 is reduced to something indistinguishable from zero, and c) your ability to pass covid-19 on to others is reduced by a very large but as-yet undetermined amount.  

Those things are all great reasons to get vaccinated.

what % are your (A) and (B) and (C) ?

Edited by Stealthycat
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11 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

Did you know that most people that arent vaccinated and test positive dont transmit to a single other person? 

did you know a human head weighs 8 pounds?

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46 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Are the post-vaccination "numbers around the same"? Heck, no! Not nearly. The numbers across the board are sharply reduced. Far fewer infections. Far fewer instances of noticeable sickness. Far fewer instances of serious illness.

actually we don't know that yet

this time next year, we could see 200,000 dead that had the vaccines and 20 million sick who had the vaccines

you can't predict the future 

what is probable ? I'm not sure .... I mean the weakest in our population has already passed from covid, the stronger survived so you can't recapture that element. 

 

how long does the vaccines keep a person's immune system covid battle ready? unknown

how does it factor against variants ? unknown 

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1 hour ago, Sand said:

It's just about impossible to prove a negative like this.  It's a logical flaw to ask a question like this.

one poster claimed it was impossible.  I'd expect proof of that.  there are no studies that show that transmission is not possible.  as far as the opposite, the studies that exist that i cited have tracked populations, not individuals, so the request for a specific instance was flawed.  the response was  in direct reply to that.  you managed to crack the code.

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Just now, belljr said:

Pretend the vaccines are cars and seatbelts....

just the opposite.  pretend the vaccine is a gun and the virus is a bad guy trying to break into your house.  

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, ekbeats said:

How that is still listed as fact is maddening.  There’s far better evidence that patient zero came from the Wuhan lab in the Fall of 2019 - from US intelligence as well as Chinese sources.  But because “Trump said so” the US mainstream media under-reports this evidence.

https://www.ibtimes.com/wuhan-lab-researchers-became-sick-first-reported-covid-19-cases-says-us-3124611

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/first-covid-19-case-happened-in-november-china-government-records-show-report

Read what I wrote, I’m not saying that patient zero didn’t came from the lab, in fact I’ve always thought it was likely. What I’m saying is that the initial super spreader event happened at the wet market even if patient zero wasn’t there.

The most likely scenario is that patient zero came from the lab and unknowingly spread the virus for weeks, possibly months before the super spreader event at the wet market. How much and when the Chinese government knew is up in the air and we’ll probably never know.

Edited by Biff84
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19 minutes ago, -fish- said:

just the opposite.  pretend the vaccine is a gun and the virus is a bad guy trying to break into your house.  

Well, that's one way to get some of the folks here in 'Bama to get the vaccine...

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From the Cleveland Clinic: why you shouldn’t take your mask off yet, even if vaccinated: 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/already-vaccinated-heres-why-you-shouldnt-stop-wearing-your-face-mask-yet/

Once again, I find myself torn between deciding for public health experts like the Cleveland Clinic, or Internet posters like @tonydead. I simply can’t make up my mind, it’s that close. 

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31 minutes ago, -fish- said:

one poster claimed it was impossible.  I'd expect proof of that.  there are no studies that show that transmission is not possible.  as far as the opposite, the studies that exist that i cited have tracked populations, not individuals, so the request for a specific instance was flawed.  the response was  in direct reply to that.  you managed to crack the code.

Link? 

Several posters now have pointed out the flaws in your logic.  You need to start providing links to your bogus claims.  We won't hold our breaths.  

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45 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

what % are your (A) and (B) and (C) ?

Nationally, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has reported only 132 vaccine breakthrough deaths out of the more than 100 million people who have been fully vaccinated.  That right there is all you need to know about how effective the vaccines are.  The seasonal flu is probably going to be more deadly going forward- even with vaccines.

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

From the Cleveland Clinic: why you shouldn’t take your mask off yet, even if vaccinated: 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/already-vaccinated-heres-why-you-shouldnt-stop-wearing-your-face-mask-yet/

Once again, I find myself torn between deciding for public health experts like the Cleveland Clinic, or Internet posters like @tonydead. I simply can’t make up my mind, it’s that close. 

This is an article from early March.  Some of the points it raises are obviously still valid -- for example, while the two-dose vaccines provide very good protection about 10 days or so after the first shot, you're not really fully protected until around two weeks after the second shot.  Much of the rest is outdated.  We know now that breakthrough cases are extremely rare and pretty much never result in serious illness, and we know that the vaccines substantially reduce (at least) transmission.

By all means, keep wearing a mask if you feel like it.  But at some point you're going to have to figure out to reintegrate into society.  I know it's difficult to deprogram your brain after 15 months or so of vigilance.  Avoiding out-of-date guidelines is a good first step in that direction.

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13 minutes ago, timschochet said:

From the Cleveland Clinic: why you shouldn’t take your mask off yet, even if vaccinated: 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/already-vaccinated-heres-why-you-shouldnt-stop-wearing-your-face-mask-yet/

Once again, I find myself torn between deciding for public health experts like the Cleveland Clinic, or Internet posters like @tonydead. I simply can’t make up my mind, it’s that close. 


CDC: Fully vaccinated people don’t spread COVID-19

The study may make it easier for people to resume normal lives

Mark Huffman, Reporter

published on 04/01/2021

People who are completely vaccinated have been advised to continue wearing masks and stay six feet apart to protect others. Now, a new study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) suggests that may be unnecessary.

Previously, researchers weren’t sure if fully vaccinated people could somehow carry the virus and spread it to others, even if they didn’t get sick. They studied thousands of fully vaccinated first responders and have now concluded that it is highly unlikely that vaccinated people can carry the disease.

“Authorized mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are effective for preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection in real-world conditions,” the authors of the study wrote. “COVID-19 vaccination is recommended for all eligible persons.”

Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, put it this way: “Vaccinated people do not carry the virus, they don’t get sick,” she said on MSNBC. “That’s not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.”

The study focused exclusively on the mRNA vaccines -- those produced by Moderna and jointly by Pfizer and BioNTech. The study did not include people who got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, but the same principle may apply.

If you aren’t infected, you can’t spread it

In short, the researchers determined that if you aren’t infected with the virus and are vaccinated, you can’t spread it to others who have not been vaccinated. So, can fully vaccinated people toss their face masks in the trash? The CDC isn’t quite ready to say that.

The health agency has not issued new guidance on how vaccinated people should behave in public. Until it does, the current policy is that the vaccinated population should continue to mask up in public and take other precautions.

But the CDC study is evidence that the day when things start getting “back to normal” may not be that far off.

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29 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

Read what I wrote, I’m not saying that patient zero didn’t came from the lab, in fact I’ve always thought it was likely. What I’m saying is that the initial super spreader event happened at the wet market even if patient zero wasn’t there.

The most likely scenario is that patient zero came from the lab and unknowingly spread the virus for weeks, possibly months before the super spreader event at the wet market. How much and when the Chinese government knew is up in the air and we’ll probably never know.

My bad.  I misread what you had written.

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7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

From the Cleveland Clinic: why you shouldn’t take your mask off yet, even if vaccinated: 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/already-vaccinated-heres-why-you-shouldnt-stop-wearing-your-face-mask-yet/

Once again, I find myself torn between deciding for public health experts like the Cleveland Clinic, or Internet posters like @tonydead. I simply can’t make up my mind, it’s that close. 

You should learn to gather information and think for yourself.   Pffft, lolz.

That article is 3 months old.  :lmao:  They need to update their facts.  I'll address each of their 5 reasons to continue to wear a mask one by one:

1 - It takes time for the vaccine to kick in.  Ok fine, wear it 2 weeks after your second shot if you want.

2 - Vaccines do not provide 100% protection.  :mellow: While technically true, the breakthrough rate is currently 0.008%.

3 - Vaccinated people might be asymptomatic spreaders.  Again while technically true the data show it to be nearly zero, see #2.

4 - We need to protect those the vulnerable that can't get vaccinated.  This is hugely misleading, the number of people that can't get the vaccine for medical reasons is essentially zero.  

5 - Vaccines aren't widely available.  Yes they are.

And remember, the goal was to flatten the curve, not zero people die.  If you've jumped on board with the liberal socialist band wagon of saving every single life at all costs then you're going to be wearing masks for the flu and the common cold the rest of your life.

 

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3 minutes ago, tonydead said:

You should learn to gather information and think for yourself.   Pffft, lolz.

That article is 3 months old.  :lmao:  They need to update their facts.  I'll address each of their 5 reasons to continue to wear a mask one by one:

1 - It takes time for the vaccine to kick in.  Ok fine, wear it 2 weeks after your second shot if you want.

2 - Vaccines do not provide 100% protection.  :mellow: While technically true, the breakthrough rate is currently 0.008%.

3 - Vaccinated people might be asymptomatic spreaders.  Again while technically true the data show it to be nearly zero, see #2.

4 - We need to protect those the vulnerable that can't get vaccinated.  This is hugely misleading, the number of people that can't get the vaccine for medical reasons is essentially zero.  

5 - Vaccines aren't widely available.  Yes they are.

And remember, the goal was to flatten the curve, not zero people die.  If you've jumped on board with the liberal socialist band wagon of saving every single life at all costs then you're going to be wearing masks for the flu and the common cold the rest of your life.

 

I appreciate your thoughts. I’ve got my annual physical exam coming up in a few weeks, do you mind if I send you the results? I trust my doctor but I can always use a second opinion. 

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