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Government Response To The Coronavirus


James Daulton

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I appreciate your thoughts. I’ve got my annual physical exam coming up in a few weeks, do you mind if I send you the results? I trust my doctor but I can always use a second opinion. 

We're good as long as he doesn't prescribe you something based on test results from 3 years ago.  Or if he decides to send you home in a bubble suit so you don't hurt yourself.  

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I appreciate your thoughts. I’ve got my annual physical exam coming up in a few weeks, do you mind if I send you the results? I trust my doctor but I can always use a second opinion. 

You posted an outdated article and got several polite responses pointing that out to you.  The optimal response here is "thanks."

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Many irrational posts like some people don't want to believe this is ending.  I mean it made sense when we needed something to blame on Trump.  What is it now, the work from home?  Fear of going back into society?  I don't get it.  

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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

You posted an outdated article and got several polite responses pointing that out to you.  The optimal response here is "thanks."

It’s not that outdated. I haven’t seen any public health officials come out and encourage people to stop wearing masks the way some of you are doing. When that happens I will pay attention. Which is my entire point: I trust them. I don’t trust @tonydead. Tonydead told me to stop wearing my mask over a year ago. He’s been wrong about this virus from the beginning. For him it’s a political thing. 
As for you Ivan, I trust you way more than Tony, but not nearly as much as public health experts. They’re the ones who have trained for this their entire lives. And despite the BS that gets spread around here sometimes, they have no motive other than to save lives. 

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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I appreciate your thoughts. I’ve got my annual physical exam coming up in a few weeks, do you mind if I send you the results? I trust my doctor but I can always use a second opinion. 

Hopefully your doctor is better than your links

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Many irrational posts like some people don't want to believe this is ending.  I mean it made sense when we needed something to blame on Trump.  What is it now, the work from home?  Fear of going back into society?  I don't get it.  

I don’t know why everyone is still treating this as a mystery.

I explained earlier that the primary reason vaccinated people are still being asked to wear masks is so that unvaccinated people will too.

So far the only real response to that argument has been “screw the unvaccinated — if they don’t have the shot yet let’em get sick.”  That’s just not a position a lot of us are willing to subscribe to.

Edited by fatguyinalittlecoat
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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It’s not that outdated. I haven’t seen any public health officials come out and encourage people to stop wearing masks the way some of you are doing. When that happens I will pay attention. Which is my entire point: I trust them. I don’t trust @tonydead. Tonydead told me to stop wearing my mask over a year ago. He’s been wrong about this virus from the beginning. For him it’s a political thing. 
As for you Ivan, I trust you way more than Tony, but not nearly as much as public health experts. They’re the ones who have trained for this their entire lives. And despite the BS that gets spread around here sometimes, they have no motive other than to save lives. 

So you are basically ignoring the current CDC guidelines that were posted?

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:
2 hours ago, Doug B said:

Are the post-vaccination "numbers around the same"? Heck, no! Not nearly. The numbers across the board are sharply reduced. Far fewer infections. Far fewer instances of noticeable sickness. Far fewer instances of serious illness.

actually we don't know that yet

this time next year, we could see 200,000 dead that had the vaccines and 20 million sick who had the vaccines

you can't predict the future 

I'm sure you'll understand that I won't take your word for the part in blue. Data on these matters is being collected and analyzed in real time and there's not going to be some sudden flip that controverts everything learned to date.

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1 minute ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I don’t know why everyone is still treating this as a mystery.

I explained earlier that the primary reason vaccinated people are still being asked to wear masks is so that unvaccinated people will too.

So far the only real response to that argument has been “screw the unvaccinated — if they don’t have the shot yet let’em get sick.”  That’s just not a position a lot of us are willing to subscribe to.

People unwilling to get a vaccine are willing to wear a mask as long as everyone else is doing it is about as poor logic as you could make up if you were trying to make up a poor logic sentence.  

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2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I'm sure you'll understand that I won't take your word for the part in blue. Data on these matters is being collected and analyzed in real time and there's not going to be some sudden flip that controverts everything learned to date.

science almost ALWAYS flips and changes

to what degree we do not know

 

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3 minutes ago, tonydead said:

People unwilling to get a vaccine are willing to wear a mask as long as everyone else is doing it is about as poor logic as you could make up if you were trying to make up a poor logic sentence.  

if only people's zest for saving lives extended to all the other things that kill people .......... I mean, this fanaticism with vaccines extended to obesity, tobacco use, drug overdosing .......... imagine how many millions could be saved if we would just force everyone to do what we want them to do right ?

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Just now, Stealthycat said:
4 minutes ago, Doug B said:

I'm sure you'll understand that I won't take your word for the part in blue. Data on these matters is being collected and analyzed in real time and there's not going to be some sudden flip that controverts everything learned to date.

science almost ALWAYS flips and changes

Philosophically, I disagree broadly to the statement as written. Though new ideas can be tested, gain consensus and change scientific understanding ... science is not chaotic in an inscrutable manner.

Adopting your take, nothing can ever be truly known -- people are pretty much left to inventing knowledge and truth for themselves regardless of any data or information out there. Are we really quite sure thunder is not just the sound of God bowling? How could we know? The science could change, as it almost always does.

If your statement was, instead, that "Science changes frequently and at times can even flip altogether", I could agree. The way you put it is that it's just pure chaos and nothing is ever discovered or known.

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2 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

if only people's zest for saving lives extended to all the other things that kill people .......... I mean, this fanaticism with vaccines extended to obesity, tobacco use, drug overdosing .......... imagine how many millions could be saved if we would just force everyone to do what we want them to do right ?

I don't know when it went from flattening the curve to saving every life at all costs.  But it did and it's really unfortunate.  Not only have the curves flattened - everything is way down - and the vaccine is available to everyone that wants it.  We should open up fully without restrictions now.  Full Stop.

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11 minutes ago, tonydead said:

People unwilling to get a vaccine are willing to wear a mask as long as everyone else is doing it is about as poor logic as you could make up if you were trying to make up a poor logic sentence.  

Unvaccinated will wear masks if they need to get into stores, etc.  

Less than half of the unvaccinated say that they definitely won’t get the vaccine.

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8 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

if only people's zest for saving lives extended to all the other things that kill people .......... I mean, this fanaticism with vaccines extended to obesity, tobacco use, drug overdosing .......... imagine how many millions could be saved if we would just force everyone to do what we want them to do right ?

Again -- not everything's the same. Nuance. Different situations, different strategies.

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2 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Unvaccinated will wear masks if they need to get into stores, etc.  

Less than half of the unvaccinated say that they definitely won’t get the vaccine.

I assume most would get vaccinated too if that were the requirement or starve to death or learn to grow their own food.   That's the public school vaccine requirements vs. home schooling debate.  Completely different than your lead by example claim.  

 

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56 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Again -- not everything's the same. Nuance. Different situations, different strategies.

we agree

not everything is the same - shutting down the economy and small businesses wasn't about large gatherings and keeping people safe, that was never the strategy IMO

 

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56 minutes ago, tonydead said:

I assume most would get vaccinated too if that were the requirement or starve to death or learn to grow their own food.   That's the public school vaccine requirements vs. home schooling debate.  Completely different than your lead by example claim.  

 

Yeah I’m not sure what you think my previous claim was but I think I’ve been consistent.

We still have more than half our population unvaccinated.  Unvaccinated people need to continue wearing masks to slow spread and diminish hospitalizations and death. 
 

There are really only two ways to assure the unvaccinated will continue to wear masks.  Either we develop a vaccine passport system where the vaccinated can easily be distinguished from the unvaccinated.  Or we all continue to wear masks.

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4 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Yeah I’m not sure what you think my previous claim was but I think I’ve been consistent.

We still have more than half our population unvaccinated.  Unvaccinated people need to continue wearing masks to slow spread and diminish hospitalizations and death. 
 

There are really only two ways to assure the unvaccinated will continue to wear masks.  Either we develop a vaccine passport system where the vaccinated can easily be distinguished from the unvaccinated.  Or we all continue to wear masks.

This is a compelling argument for you and I and those who want this nation to be safe. 
 

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1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I explained earlier that the primary reason vaccinated people are still being asked to wear masks is so that unvaccinated people will too.

That is crazy logic. I'm not going to continue to wear a mask to virtue signal to those who refuse to get vaccinated. At this point the vaccine is pretty much available to anyone that wants it. I've done my part and am not going to wear a mask to set an example to anyone else, unless it is in a required place. 

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14 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Yeah I’m not sure what you think my previous claim was but I think I’ve been consistent.

We still have more than half our population unvaccinated.  Unvaccinated people need to continue wearing masks to slow spread and diminish hospitalizations and death. 
 

There are really only two ways to assure the unvaccinated will continue to wear masks.  Either we develop a vaccine passport system where the vaccinated can easily be distinguished from the unvaccinated.  Or we all continue to wear masks.

Why do you need to distinguish between the two?  Everyone has free availability to the vaccine if they want it.

If you're going to mandate masks why not just mandate vaccines instead?  

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15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

This is a compelling argument for you and I and those who want this nation to be safe. 
 

At this point personal safety from this virus is a personal choice.  I have no problem with ostracizing of those who choose to not get vaccinated.  Vaccinations are one of the vanishingly few responsibilities we ask of our citizenry.  

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I want people to stop using tobacco products and stop being obese

People want me to get vaccinated

 

Seems like we can make some kind of a trade .......

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21 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Why do you need to distinguish between the two?  Everyone has free availability to the vaccine if they want it.

If you're going to mandate masks why not just mandate vaccines instead?  

The need to distinguish the two arises if we say “vaccinated people can stop wearing masks on the subway but unvaccinated people can’t.”  If we can’t distinguish them then that particular rule would be unworkable.

I might be willing to mandate vaccines but I recognize the slippery slope there.  Wearing a mask to me seems more akin to wearing shoes than getting a foreign substance injected into your body.

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6 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I want people to stop using tobacco products and stop being obese

People want me to get vaccinated

 

Seems like we can make some kind of a trade .......

Personally I don't care if you get vaccinated.  That's why *I* got vaccinated.  So I wouldn't have to worry about whether the people I'm around are vaccinated.  So, do what you're comfortable doing.  I'm fine either way.

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20 minutes ago, John123 said:

Personally I don't care if you get vaccinated.  That's why *I* got vaccinated.  So I wouldn't have to worry about whether the people I'm around are vaccinated.  So, do what you're comfortable doing.  I'm fine either way.

my philosophy too

if people fear something - they need to do what's best for them vs imposing their fears on someone else, right ?

I'm healthy, still the age that I'm exceptionally small % covid chanced .......... if I were 75 and not in good health, I'd vaccine which is what I advised my 86 year old Dad and 78 year old Mom to do

 

if covid was killing 25% of the population that would be different too

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Posted (edited)

If you're vaccinated, the threat posed to you by unvaccinated people is actually lower than the threat posed to you by people who didn't get a flu shot.  You're less likely to get covid after vaccination than you are to get the flu after vaccination, and the severity of your covid symptoms -- in the highly, highly unlikely event that you get infected -- will be less severe than typical flu symptoms.  

If you were worried pre-pandemic about people who didn't get flu shots, then I guess it also makes sense to worry about people who aren't getting covid vaccines.  Otherwise I don't see why it should be a big deal.

Edit: It was different when people didn't have access to the vaccines.  Now that they're ubiquitous and many of us are in communities where everybody who wants to be vaccinated has had ample opportunity to do so, my sympathy for the unvaccinated is basically at zero.  

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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9 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

The need to distinguish the two arises if we say “vaccinated people can stop wearing masks on the subway but unvaccinated people can’t.”  If we can’t distinguish them then that particular rule would be unworkable.

I might be willing to mandate vaccines but I recognize the slippery slope there.  Wearing a mask to me seems more akin to wearing shoes than getting a foreign substance injected into your body.

It's ok to "mandate" things in the interest of the safety of others, once that safety risk has been illuminated it should be personal free choice.  We don't live in a dictatorship.  I asked the mandate question because I was hoping it would lead you to this conclusion.  Since it didn't and you regard a vaccination as more invasive than mask wearing try looking at it a different way:

Making someone take a pill that is healthy actually healthy for them vs. being required to wear bra and panties for no good reason.  

 

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While I don't usually subscribe to @Stealthycat analogies, they work perfectly fine in this case.  Unvaccinated people pose no threat to vaccinated people.  The government does not keep me from eating fast food everyday and I can jump out of a working airplane if I want to.  Vaccines are available free, to everyone.  There should be no more restrictions on living our individual lives as we see fit.  

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1 hour ago, Sand said:

At this point personal safety from this virus is a personal choice.

What about those under 12 or those whose doctors have told them not to get a vaccine for some medical reason (allergies, etc.)?  Should we not be proactive to protect those people while a pandemic still rages on?

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, tonydead said:

While I don't usually subscribe to @Stealthycat analogies, they work perfectly fine in this case.  Unvaccinated people pose no threat to vaccinated people.  The government does not keep me from eating fast food everyday and I can jump out of a working airplane if I want to.  Vaccines are available free, to everyone.  There should be no more restrictions on living our individual lives as we see fit.  

Unvaccinated people continue to spread a virus that is constantly mutating, causing more risk that existing vaccines will be ineffective against a variant.  This is happening in India right now.   Unvaccinated people continue to increase the risk to others.

Edited by -fish-
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Posted (edited)

Here's something to consider.

Jesse Walker

@notjessewalker

"What's striking to me isn't that the tentative consensus of the moment changed. It's that so many people felt the need to express the tentative consensus of the moment in a tone of smug certainty."

This is in response to the media, who in the early days of the pandemic, referred to "sceintific consensus" and "experts" to guide the way. Just thought about this thread, medical studies, and figured this belonged here for guys like @Terminalxylemto read.

Edited by rockaction
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18 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

What about those under 12 or those whose doctors have told them not to get a vaccine for some medical reason (allergies, etc.)?  Should we not be proactive to protect those people while a pandemic still rages on?

We know the young don't suffer effects in any appreciable amount.

For those with allergies, this pandemic isn't going to just go away to nothing.  That's why I said ostracizing those who don't get the vaccine is ok - it will help get us to herd immunity and protect those few who can't get the shot.  But, since this will be a fact of life going forward, those folks with medical issues should anticipate having to manage their own medical issues.  Society must open back up at some point.  You can't protect everyone all the time.

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14 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Unvaccinated people continue to spread a virus that is constantly mutating, causing more risk that existing vaccines will be ineffective against a variant.  This is happening in India right now.   Unvaccinated people continue to increase the risk to others.

The solution for this is to encourage people to get vaccinated.  Not for the rest of us to wear masks and socially distance.

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If I were 100% sure that behavior of unvaccinated people would only affect those who choose not to get vaccinated, I wouldn’t care what they do or if they get vaccinated. Let them learn the benefits of vaccines the hard way.

With that little bit of wiggle room that the vaccine leaves I’m still gonna take some precautions that others may not. I may still wear a mask in crowded areas and while around large groups of strangers even after it’s no longer recommended for vaccinated individuals.

But that’s just me. I wouldn’t expect others to follow the same standards and I wouldn’t want the CDC to hold back changes any longer. I’d be disappointed if masks are still recommended for the vaccinated in July.

Just had a co-worker who is vaccinated is now out presumingly with COVID. I did have close contact with her but between the vaccine and mask usage I’m not concerned, see no need to quarantine or get tested. But it serves as a reminder that it can still happen and I’d hate myself I were to bring it home to my kids or be the reason anyone gets it. I’ll go with CDC recommendations in most cases but I’ll still mask up in certain situation. Again that’s just me, not what I think everyone needs to do.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, -fish- said:

Unvaccinated people continue to spread a virus that is constantly mutating, causing more risk that existing vaccines will be ineffective against a variant.  This is happening in India right now.   Unvaccinated people continue to increase the risk to others.

Please stop jumping into the middle of the conversation without bothering to read the thread and understand what is being discussed.  Also if you could provide links to your bogus claims like Joe asked you to earlier today that would be great.  TIA.

27 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

The solution for this is to encourage people to get vaccinated.  Not for the rest of us to wear masks and socially distance.

Yes, exactly.

 

Edited by tonydead
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4 hours ago, tonydead said:

Many irrational posts like some people don't want to believe this is ending.  I mean it made sense when we needed something to blame on Trump.  What is it now, the work from home?  Fear of going back into society?  I don't get it.  

It’s fascinating psychology.  Some people just like to be told what to do.

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

The solution for this is to encourage people to get vaccinated.  Not for the rest of us to wear masks and socially distance.

I don't disagree.  I was responding to a claim that people that choose not to get vaccinated do not put others at risk.   

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, tonydead said:

Please stop jumping into the middle of the conversation without bothering to read the thread and understand what is being discussed.  Also if you could provide links to your bogus claims like Joe asked you to earlier today that would be great.  TIA.

Yes, exactly.

 

Hey stalker...first, how about you stop following me from topic to topic making useless posts?   
You posted this nonsense: " Unvaccinated people pose no threat to vaccinated people. "  It's categorically false.   

Please put me on ignore since you don't actually read my posts anyway.

Edited by -fish-
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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, John123 said:

Is someone telling you that you can't?

Yeah plenty of places 

Airplanes, sporting events, restaurants, my work place

 

Edited by belljr
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2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If you're vaccinated, the threat posed to you by unvaccinated people is actually lower than the threat posed to you by people who didn't get a flu shot.  You're less likely to get covid after vaccination than you are to get the flu after vaccination, and the severity of your covid symptoms -- in the highly, highly unlikely event that you get infected -- will be less severe than typical flu symptoms. 

Most of this is true, except for the bolded.  There are far more people capable of spreading COVID than the flu right now.  Threat is a combo of prevalence + poor outcomes.  The threat of ebola or rabies infection are low for me, but that's only because of the prevalence being zero of very very low in this country.

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Just now, The Z Machine said:
2 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

If you're vaccinated, the threat posed to you by unvaccinated people is actually lower than the threat posed to you by people who didn't get a flu shot.  You're less likely to get covid after vaccination than you are to get the flu after vaccination, and the severity of your covid symptoms -- in the highly, highly unlikely event that you get infected -- will be less severe than typical flu symptoms. 

Most of this is true, except for the bolded.  There are far more people capable of spreading COVID than the flu right now.  Threat is a combo of prevalence + poor outcomes.  The threat of ebola or rabies infection are low for me, but that's only because of the prevalence being zero of very very low in this country.

It's also only true as to the existing variants. 

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