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Government Response To The Coronavirus (15 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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. It's over folks. We did it. Go out and party tonight, and tomorrow. 
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t want you figuring out public health crises for yourselves. I want you to follow the CDC’s guidance.tonydead said:
timschochet
Footballguy
The reason he discouraged masks in the first place was because he and other public health experts reasonably feared a run on N-95 masks. But very shortly thereafter, when cheaper common masks became available, Fauci publicly advocated for their use. If Trump hadn’t disagreed with his advice, if a lot more regular folks had done as he asked we could have saved many more lives.
I can’t think of a single major error that Fauci made during this crisis, except perhaps that he should have resigned when Trump attempted to play politics and started spouting dangerous ignorance.
Shula-holic
Footballguy
Scott Gottlieb has been way ahead of them in outlining what is likely to occur next and what phase we are in pretty much the whole way.
growlers
Footballguy
If Joe and the moderators want to wonder why this forum is going to crap, just look at the last 48 hours of this thread for your answer. The anti-science and anti-expert posters have destroyed it.
Experts - meaning doctors actually caring for these patients in the hospital - who also read the literature on a daily basis - are denigrated when they post - and are also told that experts like Fauci are clowns for some sort of perceived political points. All it is one big gotcha thread for whatever error they perceive or whatever talking point Tucker Carlson said on Fox last night.
I don't get the anti-expert angle. I had a plumber out today to fix something. I don't know #### about plumbing. I don't stand there and argue with him and argue about plumbing "facts" I read on twitter. Yet in this forum, and in real life, there are constantly anti-science MAGA-hats telling me I have no idea what I am talking about. Even at work. It's bizarre.
Experts - meaning doctors actually caring for these patients in the hospital - who also read the literature on a daily basis - are denigrated when they post - and are also told that experts like Fauci are clowns for some sort of perceived political points. All it is one big gotcha thread for whatever error they perceive or whatever talking point Tucker Carlson said on Fox last night.
I don't get the anti-expert angle. I had a plumber out today to fix something. I don't know #### about plumbing. I don't stand there and argue with him and argue about plumbing "facts" I read on twitter. Yet in this forum, and in real life, there are constantly anti-science MAGA-hats telling me I have no idea what I am talking about. Even at work. It's bizarre.
growlers
Footballguy
I've been making this point for over a year and these posters don't care. Quit wasting your time.
Moderna executive maybe. CDC no way. I work with government agencies all day long. Spend most of my time helping them understand and do their job. There isn’t a government agency alive that is the leader of their field of expertise.
Private Sector Expert > Tonydead > CDC/Fauci
If the evidence of the past 5 pages in this thread aren’t evidence enough you are blind.
Sorry we figured out vaccinated people don’t need to wear masks before the CDC announced it. That is fact. On the very pages you referenced.
And I bet a lot of us can do our own plumbing. I can and do. Plumbing isn’t rocket science.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
That’s exactly what the quote said. Fauci said “that people wear a mask”, NOT “that unvaccinated people wear a mask” or “that they wear a mask”.
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growlers
Footballguy
it's amazing how the CDC was internationally renowned until Trump told 40% of you to not like them.
Why don’t you report it to Joe so you don’t have to deal with alternatives opinions from “non-experts” - you know, the people who correctly researched, interpreted and cited the data and studies and were proven to be correct today. Your esteemed MD made the ludicrous statement that masks don’t restrict oxygenation during track races, and then cited a study that clearly showed that oxygenation is in fact restricted during high intensity exercise, but still wouldn’t admit he was wrong. He doubled down with some arrogant posts denigrating other posters and was rightfully called out for it.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this thread. Posters challenged conventional wisdom from supposed experts, cited their work, and in the end were proven to be correct. It actually represents everything that is good about discussion forums.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Please. Fauci has been wrong on so many things and you just eat it up like a pig and slop
dkp993
Footballguy
Modesty like this almost has me convinced your FBG’s Gordon Gekko. Are you going to next regale us with stories of your hyper alpha studliness.
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But he also says kids too young to be vaccinated still have to wear masks:
https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1392968392408248324
So you're supposed to see a family of four where the parents aren't wearing masks but the kids are. And if the kids play with their friends they have to wear masks. This is all pretty ridiculous.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Actually.
tonydead = rocket scientist
For my senior project I designed the body of an AMSAT satellite. It was an interesting problem because it used to be an aluminum base with 4 other satellites mounted on top of it inside the rocket. They wanted to get one more satellite in there. It had a real problem with natural frequencies, as you can imagine, when leaving the atmosphere. Despite finite element modeling in its infantsy back then I solved the problem, primarily by telling them they had to use titanium, instead of the normal materials of the day.
It made it into space, which was my job. The fact that it got lost in space wasn't my fault, other engineers were responsible for that.
But I digress Dr. What is your opinion on wearing masks? Do you agree with the CDC and when did you come to that determination?
I'm married to a hot wife that digs me. I mean the exact opposite of some wives I hear about in other threads. Does that count?
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Yes we will. You think we need 70 percent or so vaccinated to reach herd immunity, because that's what we've been told. That's not true. Unvaccinated people will continue to spread the virus to each other, some will get sick, some will die, but those that dont die will develop antibodies naturally.
In fact, had we not shut down and put in all these restrictions in place when we realized the virus primarily affects only the old and vulnerable. We could have let the healthy go about life normally, contracting the virus and developing antibodies, and we would be at herd immunity already. Probably a long time ago.
ETA: That's why @KarmaPolice 's post about anti vaxxers not wearing masks is a good thing, if it's true. The faster they spread the vaccine to each other the sooner we get to heard immunity. Yes some people will die -- protect the old and vulnerable anti vaxxers.
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jm192
Footballguy
To be fair:
A. If you are vaccinated, you need to wear a mask because you might can still spread the virus
B. If you are vaccinated and exposed, you do not need to quarantine.
Those two statements don't seem to be able to mutually exist. If I can spread the virus after vaccination, I should quarantine when exposed.
growlers
Footballguy
I know nothing about rocket science and if there was a thread discussing the subject I wouldn't post my uninformed opinions about it as some sort of arrogant master-of-all-subjects. I also wouldn't denigrate and post that international experts in the field and other posters that were in the rocket science field were idiots. And i certainly wouldn't inform my opinion solely or primarily based on what my favored politicians thought about rocket science.
As to your question: my opinion on masks has evolved, you know, LIKE SCIENCE DOES. I have read and absorbed evidence put out by experts and formed an opinion, like science does. It has slowly become clear that vaccinated people are very unlikely to spread the virus. That scientific opinion took time and evidence to evolve. At this point, now that the scientific community has this evidence, the only reason to for vaccinated people to wear masks is so that unvaccinated people might be forced to wear masks to both protect themselves and to encourage them to get vaccinated. I personally don't feel that it is reasonable at this point to mandate masks for these reasons - my "unmasking date" is based on two weeks after the date that anyone who wanted to get vaccinated could get vaccinated. I think that it is reasonable for a public health expert to look at the situation and determine that we need to protect the anti-vaccers and perhaps the people that haven't had the opportunity to get vaccinated so we need to keep masking for a bit longer. I don't agree with that personally, partly because I'm incredibly annoyed by the anti-vaccination crowd, but I'm willing to keep wearing masks if the public health experts determine that we need to do it. But that is partly because I don't see wearing a mask walking into a restaurant as some sort of leftwing constitutional affront to my USA#1 liberties - and I see it as just a minor annoyance, and I trust the experts to make these decision with far more information than I have. Just like I would trust the contractor to determine how much rebar i need in my skyscraper instead of some guy on twitter. But whatever- you do you.
Ok. I asked because based on your vulgar posts I figured you considered yourself some sort of expert. Now I understand you just follow along like normal folk. Had you been following the science, and data (not that I expect you to, but because of your extraordinary vulgarity), you would have realized that vaccinated people did not have to wear masks some time ago. Like some of us did.
growlers
Footballguy
this is a good example of what I am irritated about in this thread (and life). I personally had 3 of my patients in their 30s with minimal preexisting conditions die. I've admitted many many patients in their 30s/40s/50s who had extended hospital stays with resulting massive physical and financial hardships as a result only of covid. It killed three of my healthcare coworkers that I knew well and I personally cared for several dozen more. HERD immunity, you don't even know how to spell the word but you think you are an "expert"
And we really should revisit this post. A page or 2 back I mentioned how hard it is to find a good doctor. Imagine coming into this guy's ER where he thinks 99 out of 100 customers are pieces of crap, "zombies". Got to wonder about that hippocratic oath at this point.
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So sorry to hear about that. And that you are questioning your profession. Prayers and thoughts.
Anecdotal accounts are sad indeed, but, we know the mortality rates, infection rates - with and without the vaccine. And which demographics it effects. I mean you arent even arguing with me anymore. The CDC agreed with me today.
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growlers
Footballguy
didn't say anything close to that - i said that 99% of the covid science deniers and antivaccination crowd are trump supporters.
I'll actually walk that back - it's probably only 90%.
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growlers
Footballguy
anecdotal = someone who has taken care of a couple thousand covid patients. And it's been the focus of my career for over a year.
I am gonna bow out of this. I regret jumping back into this cesspool.
I look forward to posting nonsense uninformed opinions in your rocket science thread.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Again the CDC agreed with me today. How is that uninformed? God bless, thanks for all your hard work!
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
It isnt like masks just appeared in 2020 and it isnt like doctors themselves weren't wearing them from the beginning of this thing.
"The science changed" is just the talking point used to avoid looking bad.
You know how I know the science didnt change? Most of the citations in the CDCs original guidance change were from before 2020.
supermike80
Footballguy
Well the thing is. You can watch a plumber doing his work and be able to say...Hey...that doesn't look quite right. It appears we are supposed to take the advice of the CDC without questioning anything, ever. Just follow along like brainless fools, and do what we are told. Even if something SEEMS wonky, it appears from the posters here were not even allowed to question it. Just shut up and do what you're told.
Philo Beddoe
Footballguy
- 6 foot social distancing? Wrong.
- Surface spreading? Wrong.
- Outdoor masks? Wrong.
- Occupancy rules? Wrong.
- Locking down schools? Wrong.
- Texas will get a major outbreak after they drop mandates? Wrong.
Anything else I missed?
Fine being wrong, fine changing your mind - but the amount of damage these top level policies and recommendations cause is wild.
- Surface spreading? Wrong.
- Outdoor masks? Wrong.
- Occupancy rules? Wrong.
- Locking down schools? Wrong.
- Texas will get a major outbreak after they drop mandates? Wrong.
Anything else I missed?
Fine being wrong, fine changing your mind - but the amount of damage these top level policies and recommendations cause is wild.
jm192
Footballguy
FWIW, I’m a physician and think the CDC has done a poor job at this at times.
The reality is, there’s room to question the plumber. If your toilet won’t flush and he comes in with a sledgehammer and starts smashing it, you’re going to say “this solution doesn’t make sense. You’re smart enough to question that.
The whole “It’s ok if you’re exposed but vaccinated, no need to quarantine BUT wear a mask because you can maybe spread it” leaves room to question them. And now they’ve reversed course.
It’s not anti-science to question science, I would argue questioning science is far more scientific than blindly accepting it. In the medical community, you have to prove it again and again and defend it. Not sure why the CDC can switch positions over and over but we should just shut up and trust them.
It’s not a MAGA circle jerK as some have so eloquently put it. I’m not sure why questioning the CDC leads to such condescending comments.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I was about to say that the magnanimous thing to do is to just be happy that the CDC came around to reality -- no need to spike the football. But now I look at the last couple of pages and see some people like who have been consistently wrong for months and months flexing over it (???) and now I'm confused.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Huh? You really need to give it a rest. I linked an article to help give some credibility to your argument, but there still isn’t evidence that masks meaningfully impair gas exchange. To be clear, ventilation and pulmonary function are not synonymous with oxygenation. From the same study:
So, no data that suggests masks restrict oxygen, but they are uncomfortable when exercising.
Also, who did I unfairly denigrate? I’m not the one calling out posters by name, accusing them of smugness, nor am I littering people’s posts with laughing emojis.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Have you considered the possibility that maybe something similar has happened with you? That maybe you've overlooked some valid criticisms of the CDC because you're too invested in the Resistance to consider them?
The Commish
Footballguy
Agreed...he's been really good and the guy I've listened to state side the most. There's been some interesting follows internationally as well, but for here, he's been my go to. Funny thing is, he was a "clown" around here in the PSF for a stretch when he was saying things people didn't like. I mean, obviously they knew better, so I sorta get it.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
jm192
Footballguy
The CDC seems to have changed their stance about needing to wear a mask despite being vaccinated. Some have said for months now this does not make sense.
there are multiple posters on the last two pages telling people that they we’re still wrongly in inappropriately questioning the CDC’s previous stance on needing to wear a mask despite being vaccinated.
Some werent very nice about it either.
How dare poster at FBG question and make fun of the CDC!
Meanwhile Anderson Cooper and a bunch of other "experts" on CNN last night questioning the CDC, claiming it's too soon and crying "what about the children?"
jm192
Footballguy
I'm a hospitalist that has worked on the COVID unit in our hospital for this past year. At one point we had a COVID census in the 50's. I've intubated more COVID patients than I can count. I've told families their loved one wasn't going to make it. I've fought the fight.
I'm of the belief we have to let people make their own poor health decisions and deal with the consequences of those decisions. People are allowed to drink to their heart's content. Cirrhosis? We'll take care of you. Smoke until you get lung cancer and COPD? We'll take care of you. Want to refuse a vaccine and get COVID? That's your choice too. At some point, we've got to let the people that have done what they're asked to do move forward and take care of the ones who don't take care of themselves when they get sick.
Everyone please be cool.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I think the thing to remember is that the CDC shouldn't change course based on logic or "what makes sense". They change their positions based on the facts on the ground, statistical models, and confidence levels. They will recommend the most conservative approach until they have high confidence that the detrimental effects of that change are low. Yes, that means they are often advocating for restrictions that the populace doesn't want.
This these shifts in recommendations have happened many times throughout the course of a worldwide pandemic of a novel virus. Those changes really shouldn't surprise many. Is Fauci al knowing? No. But I trust his opinion on infectious disease and epidemiology more than I trust Ron DeSantis. Furthermore, Fauci doesn't set public policy, he gives recommendations. Elected or appointed government officials set the policy at the state, county, or municipal level.
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