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Government Response To The Coronavirus


James Daulton

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7 minutes ago, jobarules said:

Its amazing how people screamed "FOLLOW THE SCIENCE" all year until the science tells them something they don't agree with and all of a sudden they disagree with the science.

The science says fully vaccinated people can go about their lives like normal. The science also says that COVID is barely a risk for children. Im not saying its 100% but Im comfortable with 99.99% risk. 

 But that seems to be the rub all of a sudden.  So much about "Well the vaccination isn't 100% so I am going to wear a mask forever)

NO vaccination provided 100% protection.  This makes no sense to me.  I mean it does.  Like I said, if you need to live in fear for yourself, for your 5 year old, for someone...then I get it and I will never ever ridicule someone wearing a mask.  But I would like to live in a world where we don't need to again. 

Besides, masks don't help much anyway.  

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1 minute ago, The Z Machine said:

I think insufficient research has been done on long COVID in children, which seems to be the greatest risk for that group since their acute illness rates are low.

Here's another quote from this website: https://theconversation.com/long-covid-in-children-what-parents-and-teachers-need-to-know-156185

"The Office for National Statistics estimates that around 13%-15% of children with COVID-19 have symptoms that last for more than five weeks. In Italy, a recent preprint (an early piece of research yet to be reviewed by other scientists) suggests that more than half of children with COVID-19 have at least one persisting symptom over 17 weeks after being diagnosed. Among them, 43% reported being impaired by their symptoms during daily activities."

That doesn't sound like a common cold to me.

Aside from seeing that data as the most mild and unscary thing ever..... just have your kids wear masks, keep them at home.

Why are you asking the world to accomodate you at this point?

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4 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

I think insufficient research has been done on long COVID in children, which seems to be the greatest risk for that group since their acute illness rates are low.

Here's another quote from this website: https://theconversation.com/long-covid-in-children-what-parents-and-teachers-need-to-know-156185

"The Office for National Statistics estimates that around 13%-15% of children with COVID-19 have symptoms that last for more than five weeks. In Italy, a recent preprint (an early piece of research yet to be reviewed by other scientists) suggests that more than half of children with COVID-19 have at least one persisting symptom over 17 weeks after being diagnosed. Among them, 43% reported being impaired by their symptoms during daily activities."

That doesn't sound like a common cold to me.

So keep your kids isolated, wearing masks until a vaccine is available to them. Im sure there will be no long term implications of that either.

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35 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Meh...Not sure I agree with that.  And do we stop at only covid?  Why don't we have vaccination cards for EVERYTHING.  Measles, mumps, polio, etc.  

We do.  We have vaccination cards for measles and mumps to attend public schools.  We have vaccination cards for certain diseases to travel internationally.

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24 minutes ago, matuski said:
On 5/18/2021 at 11:07 AM, Doug B said:

In the content of the tweet linked, Fauci didn't lie at all.

Fauci wearing a mask while vaccinated didn't mean "I am in danger and must remain masked -- and so should you". He explicitly says that he was instead wearing a mask to avoid giving mixed signals to the public.

What message does wearing a mask send if not that people should be wearing masks?  And why should people wear masks if not that there is danger?  

Fauci wasn't wearing a mask when speaking to Axios.

You've inadvertently touched on something relevant, though: Americans, as a collective, struggle with nuanced guidance that differs situationally.

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35 minutes ago, John123 said:

What's your stance on voter ID?  I'm not engaging with you with regards to the above activities because we're talking about basic liberty versus individual activities.  If you really want to do that I guess we can but it will be a give and take and probably dominate and derail this thread.  I don't see the value in that but to say that I think you're making ridiculous comparisons.

I'm generally in favor of voter ID requirements, given reasonable concessions to address concerns with cost, accessibility, etc. for poorer or less mobile people.

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1 minute ago, Doug B said:

Fauci wasn't wearing a mask when speaking to Axios.

You've inadvertently touched on something relevant, though: Americans, as a collective, struggle with nuanced guidance that differs situationally.

Very much purposefully touched on it.

Nuanced, eh?  Interesting word.  The guidance fom the CDC seems clear.  The guidance from our leaders is "nuanced"... aka something anyone would struggle to square (with the guidance).

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People that say "then you should wear a mask" are consistently missing the point, per usual.  Unvaccinated people not wearing masks increases my long-term risk, regardless of whether I wear a mask or avoid crowds.  That is the point.

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Posted (edited)

Really, all I'm asking for is to not allow those that can still pass this virus on to children to continue to take precautions.  They have choices if they don't want to continue with public health NPIs.

Children don't have those options.

Edited by The Z Machine
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4 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

We do.  We have vaccination cards for measles and mumps to attend public schools.  We have vaccination cards for certain diseases to travel internationally.

I don't need a vax card to walk into Home Depot is my point.  And I'm pretty sure you knew that.  I have not had to prove any vaccination for anything, anywhere since I left HS.  Ever.  

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2 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Why did we ask the world to mask up and social distance for the adults?

We asked that for everyone (kids and adults), because the world didn't have a vaccine.

Now the world has a vaccine, the reason children are the last to get the vaccine is they are the lowest risk, and they are all that is left.

 

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1 minute ago, The Z Machine said:

Really, all I'm asking for is to not allow those that can still pass this virus on to children to continue to take precautions.  They have choices if they don't want to continue with public health NPIs.

Children don't have those options.

You seem to keep dodging that they do have options.

Take the precaution themselves.

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1 minute ago, supermike80 said:

I don't need a vax card to walk into Home Depot is my point.  And I'm pretty sure you knew that.  I have not had to prove any vaccination for anything, anywhere since I left HS.  Ever.  

You've also probably only lived through one global pandemic of an airborne virus that killed millions.

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Just now, matuski said:

We asked that for everyone (kids and adults), because the world didn't have a vaccine.

Now the world has a vaccine, the reason children are the last to get the vaccine is they are the lowest risk, and they are all that is left.

 

So why can't we continue that until children are authorized to get a vaccine?

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, matuski said:

You seem to keep dodging that they do have options.

Take the precaution themselves.

Why should those without options (can't get vax) be burdened instead of the people with options (can get vax but choose not to)?

Edited by The Z Machine
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1 minute ago, The Z Machine said:

Why should those without options (can't get vax) be burdened instead of the people with options (can get vax but choose not to)?

I am baffled at your repeated insistence that your kids dont have options.

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1 minute ago, The Z Machine said:

This discussion just shows how selfish and self-centered our culture is.  Cannot look beyond our own noses at the greater good.  Unwilling to sacrifice. 

It is for the greater good I argue your kids (the minority) should make the accomodation.

Thank you for the attempt to characterize this as selfish, when your argument is based primarily on your 8 year olds.

 

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Just now, The Z Machine said:

So, maybe this is a unique situation then?

Not maybe.  It's definitely a unique situation.  At least in my lifetime.

Doesn't change anything though.  Just because a unique situation has occurred doesn't validate making everyone carry vaccination cards for every disease out there. Not to me it doesn't anyway.  If you want to, feel free.  I would suggest to not even wait for the government to tell you to, just make your own now.  Why wait?

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14 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

We do.  We have vaccination cards for measles and mumps to attend public schools.  We have vaccination cards for certain diseases to travel internationally.

I've traveled internationally and never had a vaccination card for doing so.  When was this requirement instituted?

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1 minute ago, supermike80 said:

Not maybe.  It's definitely a unique situation.  At least in my lifetime.

Doesn't change anything though.  Just because a unique situation has occurred doesn't validate making everyone carry vaccination cards for every disease out there. Not to me it doesn't anyway.  If you want to, feel free.  I would suggest to not even wait for the government to tell you to, just make your own now.  Why wait?

What about adapting to this unique situation until the global pandemic stops raging?  Just because you never had to do something in the past doesn't mean you shouldn't do it now if the situation has changed.

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Just now, John123 said:

I've traveled internationally and never had a vaccination card for doing so.  When was this requirement instituted?

I have never heard of this, ever.   But I let him have that one because I have only been to Mexico and Canada as recently as the last couple years.

As I mentioned, I have NEVER ever ever ever been asked about my vaccination status for anything.

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1 minute ago, John123 said:

I've traveled internationally and never had a vaccination card for doing so.  When was this requirement instituted?

You likely didn't travel to a place that required them.  See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis.  Most often used for yellow fever.

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If I were afraid for my kids, I would not ask the adult world to wait on them.

Hey guys - don't go back to work, dont see family and friends, don't go back to all the things you have been forced to go without for over a year.  Because my kids have a really really low risk of getting mild symptoms.

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1 minute ago, The Z Machine said:

What about adapting to this unique situation until the global pandemic stops raging?  Just because you never had to do something in the past doesn't mean you shouldn't do it now if the situation has changed.

Weak sauce argument. You can use that for ANYTHING.   Doesn't sell with me.

You'll have to do better than that.

 

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1 minute ago, matuski said:

If I were afraid for my kids, I would not ask the adult world to wait on them.

Hey guys - don't go back to work, dont see family and friends, don't go back to all the things you have been forced to go without for over a year.  Because my kids have a really really low risk of getting mild symptoms.

BUT IT"S A NEW SITUATION!! Shouldn't we do this because it is a new situation?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

You likely didn't travel to a place that required them.  See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis.  Most often used for yellow fever.

Sure.  So that card was created by an international organization to meet the requirements of specific countries that are not the U.S..  How is this relevant to how we should be acting in the U.S. again?  And, for the record, one of the places I've traveled was to India where "don't drink the water" extends to using bottled water to brush your teeth if you're not a native.  And they didn't require any kind of vaccination record.

Edited by John123
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7 minutes ago, John123 said:
21 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

We do.  We have vaccination cards for measles and mumps to attend public schools.  We have vaccination cards for certain diseases to travel to/from certain international destinations.

I've traveled internationally and never had a vaccination card for doing so.  When was this requirement instituted?

Fair enough.  I've updated my quote above to be more accurate.  I should have made that clear originally.

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2 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

Fair enough.  I've updated my quote above to be more accurate.  I should have made that clear originally.

I'm still not sure it's accurate.  Who is "we?"    Per the Z Machines link, it's the WHO. 

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5 minutes ago, John123 said:

I'm still not sure it's accurate.  Who is "we?"    Per the Z Machines link, it's the WHO. 

People, groups, authorities.  "We" have vaccinations rules surrounding attending schools.  In that case, we could mean individual states, individual districts, or even individual private schools.  "We" have vaccination rules surrounding certain international travel.  In that case, we could mean individual nations, the WHO, or literally any other group with the authority to create a rule.

I rather suspect that many nations will create rules requiring proof of COVID vaccination before allowing entry.  Do you disagree?

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1 hour ago, Rich Conway said:

People, groups, authorities.  "We" have vaccinations rules surrounding attending schools.  In that case, we could mean individual states, individual districts, or even individual private schools.  "We" have vaccination rules surrounding certain international travel.  In that case, we could mean individual nations, the WHO, or literally any other group with the authority to create a rule.

I rather suspect that many nations will create rules requiring proof of COVID vaccination before allowing entry.  Do you disagree?

Oh.  For some reason I thought we were discussing the government response to the coronavirus, as the thread title suggests and we've been doing for 568 pages.  I didn't realize we were discussing what the governing body of the planet Tanzu might do to ensure one of our deep space probes doesn't infect them with this virus.  My bad.

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3 minutes ago, John123 said:

Oh.  For some reason I thought we were discussing the government response to the coronavirus, as the thread title suggests and we've been doing for 568 pages.  I didn't realize we were discussing what the governing body of the planet Tanzu might do to ensure one of our deep space probes doesn't infect them with this virus.  My bad.

It's like you purposely want to misinterpret others' posts.  Go back.  Read the original post.  I made it very clear I was referring to people making the decisions to remove mask mandates for vaccinated individuals via honor system.  That's clearly a reference to those with the authority to do so.

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2 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

We do.  We have vaccination cards for measles and mumps to attend public schools.  We have vaccination cards for certain diseases to travel internationally.

Totally agree with this, by the way.  Once the vaccines are FDA-authorized (the FDA should authorize them tomorrow, since we've already established their safety and efficacy by injecting them into hundreds of millions of arms) we should require covid vaccination anyplace we would require, say, measles vaccination.  

While we're on the topic of the FDA standing in the way of humankind, have I mentioned lately that it's actually illegal to advertise life-saving vaccines on the airwaves?  It seems like that would be a good thing to fix before worry about vaccine passports.

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3 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

To flatten the curve.  Which we did.

I agree this was the initial motivation but I think that was before anyone was even talking about “long Covid.”  At the time I think the general assumption was that if you recovered you wouldn’t have long term health issues.

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17 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Totally agree with this, by the way.  Once the vaccines are FDA-authorized (the FDA should authorize them tomorrow, since we've already established their safety and efficacy by injecting them into hundreds of millions of arms) we should require covid vaccination anyplace we would require, say, measles vaccination.  

While we're on the topic of the FDA standing in the way of humankind, have I mentioned lately that it's actually illegal to advertise life-saving vaccines on the airwaves?  It seems like that would be a good thing to fix before worry about vaccine passports.

Huh? I see Covid vaccine commercials all the time

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2 hours ago, matuski said:

If I were afraid for my kids, I would not ask the adult world to wait on them.

Hey guys - don't go back to work, dont see family and friends, don't go back to all the things you have been forced to go without for over a year.  Because my kids have a really really low risk of getting mild symptoms.

I didn't say any of that.  I asked that those that are unvaccinated be asked to continue to wear masks and social distance until children can receive a vaccine.  And those that lie about their vaccination status and refuse to continue to adhere to social distancing and mask wearing rules should be punished in some way.  I don't know what or how to accomplish that exactly, but that's what I'd like to see.

I have no issue with removing the mask mandates for vaccinated folks.  I think that's wonderful.

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15 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:
26 minutes ago, jobarules said:

Huh? I see Covid vaccine commercials all the time

I believe the government can advertise “get your shot” but Pfizer can’t advertise “our shot is the best!”

I see tons of ads for Regeneron saying to go to my doctor and ask for monoclonal antibodies.   I wonder if there is a restriction on private pharma advertising a vaccine that is under an EUA?   There are plenty of ads for HPV vaccines.   

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8 minutes ago, -fish- said:

I wonder if there is a restriction on private pharma advertising a vaccine that is under an EUA?   

Yes, this is correct.

Link

Full approval will be beneficial to the companies for multiple reasons, former FDA commissioner Dr. Robert Califf told CNBC. For one, it will allow the companies' vaccines to stay on the market once the pandemic is over and the U.S. is no longer considered in an "emergency," he said.

It also sets the stage for the companies to begin marketing the shots directly to consumers, he said. Companies can't promote their products under an EUA, he said.

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2 hours ago, matuski said:

Hey guys - don't go back to work, don't see family and friends, don't go back to all the things you have been forced to go without for over a year.  Because my kids have a really really low risk of getting mild symptoms.

Is this an accurate summary of Z's point?

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1 minute ago, Doug B said:

Is this an accurate summary of Z's point?

No but he is saying all us fully vaccinated people should continue to wear masks (because unvaccinated people will lie) because his kids have a really really low risk of getting mild symptoms.

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1 minute ago, jobarules said:

No but he is saying all us fully vaccinated people should continue to wear masks (because unvaccinated people will lie) because his kids have a really really low risk of getting mild symptoms.

Personally, I would far prefer we allow vaccinated people to go maskless and require proof of vaccination than simply continuing to force masks on all (because the unvaccinated will lie).  That would create a much stronger incentive to get vaccinated and would be better for everyone's health.

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Just now, jobarules said:
2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Is this an accurate summary of Z's point?

No but he is saying all us fully vaccinated people should continue to wear masks (because unvaccinated people will lie) because his kids have a really really low risk of getting mild symptoms.

That's fine. Then that's what matuski should address.

This is part of what I was getting at in tim's "Remember when" thread -- people don't address specific points, people don't engage in good-faith debate.

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