What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Government Response To The Coronavirus (11 Viewers)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Rich Conway said:
I have no problem at all with the federal government, or individual federal agencies, requiring COVID vaccinations for people that work closely with others.  For me, this would include office settings, among other arrangements.
Click to expand...
And there is a process for this that we're not following.

The vaccines are yet to be pushed on Active duty military because the Sec Def wants to wait for full FDA approval and there is a process that needs to be followed to institute that. Even compensation factors that come with adverse reactions will need to be approved before the mandate can happen.

On the federal employee side, Biden makes a proclamation and we're just supposed to follow it?

They can get around calling it a mandate by giving employees outs to follow instead of getting the vaccine, but those "outs" like travel are required for a lot of jobs.  So what's that mean for people in my situation? Bosses dont know. Lawyers don't know.

All this rant, and I'm still willing to get the vaccine, I just want my questions answered. The problem is that no one has the answers and it's easier to force a solution. 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
The weird thing about that incident is that it made a really strong case in favor of the vaccines.  If a bunch of guys attending Bear Week in poorly-ventilated nightclubs come away a single-digit number of hospitalizations and no deaths, then I'm sure I'm pretty safe during my Saturday morning trip to Lowes.  

It baffles me that people took that as a reason to go back to masking.
Click to expand...
It isnt hard to make a case for what you want.  

This is all so ridiculous and repetitive. Remember when a huge outbreak was blamed on spring break, but it turned out to be a huge gay festival?

Remember when there was a huge outbreak in Korea and it turned out to be from a gay club?

I mean jesus christ already. Of course a bunch of dudes that get together and make out with each other and have sex and are more likely to be immuno suppressed (as in the vaccine might not work as well) than the general population are going to be a massive outlying subset.

And before people get all super hyper defensive about being homophobic lets not forget that this outbreak was discovered when tons of dudes were going in to get tested for STDs after the festival so it isnt actually a leap to think there was lots of extra activity going on. 

Pretty sure masks wouldnt have helped. 

 
Max Power said:
And there is a process for this that we're not following.

The vaccines are yet to be pushed on Active duty military because the Sec Def wants to wait for full FDA approval and there is a process that needs to be followed to institute that. Even compensation factors that come with adverse reactions will need to be approved before the mandate can happen.

On the federal employee side, Biden makes a proclamation and we're just supposed to follow it?

They can get around calling it a mandate by giving employees outs to follow instead of getting the vaccine, but those "outs" like travel are required for a lot of jobs.  So what's that mean for people in my situation? Bosses dont know. Lawyers don't know.

All this rant, and I'm still willing to get the vaccine, I just want my questions answered. The problem is that no one has the answers and it's easier to force a solution. 
Click to expand...
By all means, let's follow whatever process needs to be followed.  I don't know if "FDA approval" necessarily needs to be part of that process, legally.  I also don't know what the other aspects of the process are for any specific federal agency.  I have no issue with Joe Biden issuing a "command" for various federal agencies to "start following the standard process to make COVID vaccinations mandatory", which is essentially what I believe he has done.

 
Max Power said:
What is the data on this?  This sounds like it should be the biggest news story of the cycle if its the case.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you're asking.  It's all over that this delta variant is infecting kids at a rate none of the others did and they are getting sick.  Many of them have to go to the hospital. Is our MSM not covering it?

 
Rich Conway said:
By all means, let's follow whatever process needs to be followed.  I don't know if "FDA approval" necessarily needs to be part of that process, legally.  I also don't know what the other aspects of the process are for any specific federal agency.  I have no issue with Joe Biden issuing a "command" for various federal agencies to "start following the standard process to make COVID vaccinations mandatory", which is essentially what I believe he has done.
Click to expand...
FDA approval ties in with safety and the compensation piece. It's why a lot of the military is hesitant to take it. Under emergency authorization its voluntary and they have to waive any medical issues that may arise from taking it. Once its approved and officially mandated, any adverse reactions can be claimed as a service related disability.

We did this with the Anthrax vaccine and there are still pending court cases about the damage that vaccine may or may not have caused.

The other problem with how Biden is going about it is the restricting travel and mandatory testing. Both I think are being viewed as a form of punishment over safety. Of they really cared about covid safety, they would mandate testing and travel restrictions for everyone. 

 
The Commish said:
Not sure what you're asking.  It's all over that this delta variant is infecting kids at a rate none of the others did and they are getting sick.  Many of them have to go to the hospital. Is our MSM not covering it?
Click to expand...
Maybe I missed it. Can you link a story or two?

How do they know its delta?

 
Max Power said:
FDA approval ties in with safety and the compensation piece. It's why a lot of the military is hesitant to take it. Under emergency authorization its voluntary and they have to waive any medical issues that may arise from taking it. Once its approved and officially mandated, any adverse reactions can be claimed as a service related disability.

We did this with the Anthrax vaccine and there are still pending court cases about the damage that vaccine may or may not have caused.
Click to expand...
I suppose I'm with you here, although it seems like as soon as we make it "mandatory" then it is, in fact, no longer voluntary and the waiving would no longer apply?  

Max Power said:
The other problem with how Biden is going about it is the restricting travel and mandatory testing. Both I think are being viewed as a form of punishment over safety. Of they really cared about covid safety, they would mandate testing and travel restrictions for everyone. 
Click to expand...
I don't understand this part.  Are you suggesting that an employer should treat vaxxed and unvaxxed people identically in terms of testing, travel, and other protocols?  That makes no sense to me.

 
Grace Under Pressure said:
It's also unrealistic to think that China had no means to fund virus research without U.S. dollars. Not saying that you are saying that, but if China wants to fund something they don't need the U.S. to pay for it. 
Click to expand...


No, but I really think we need to reassess China and it's overall threat level to our country.  I know it was mentioned by someone else upthread, but our policy toward China and the hopes to open its markets have failed miserably.  They are not our friends and we need to address it as such.  I don't think I could come up with a strong enough word for what I call sending money their way in the current climate and economic outlook for both countries.

 
Sand said:
Ensure that teachers get to skip another school year.  Paid, of course.

Let's not forget that the union there demanded that all students and teachers be vaccinated prior to in-person school.  The impossible mandate.  All of this to spring teachers loose.  With the advice to not publish their vacation spots during the school year on social media.
Click to expand...
As the husband of a teacher I find this post deeply offensive.  My wife put in WAY more time this past school year than she normally does in order to redo all of her lessons in order to make them presentable to her students remotely.  The entire year was a total ####show as neither the district nor the teachers were in familiar territory.  The parents only see that their kids are on with the teacher for 3 hours per day, so they assume the teachers are just taking the rest of the day off when they aren't on with the kids.  This couldn't be more wrong.  Every day when she got off of her classroom meeting, she would spend the rest of her day reworking her lessons for the next day, often times working well past 6:00PM.  I know a lot of teachers, and I don't know of a single one that wants to repeat last year.  They all want to return to the classroom.

We don't hear these same complaints about people in other professions that have shifted to working from home.

 
Rich Conway said:
I suppose I'm with you here, although it seems like as soon as we make it "mandatory" then it is, in fact, no longer voluntary and the waiving would no longer apply?  

I don't understand this part.  Are you suggesting that an employer should treat vaxxed and unvaxxed people identically in terms of testing, travel, and other protocols?  That makes no sense to me.
Click to expand...
I'm sure there will still be some wavering once it's approved, but that number will go way down when people feel like they have a little insurance.

Why wouldn't they treat them the same?  Both can get and spread covid at similar rates right?  If the employer is trying to avoid a covid outbreak on the staff, the same testing policies should be in place. 

 
Max Power said:
I'm sure there will still be some wavering once it's approved, but that number will go way down when people feel like they have a little insurance.

Why wouldn't they treat them the same?  Both can get and spread covid at similar rates right?  If the employer is trying to avoid a covid outbreak on the staff, the same testing policies should be in place. 
Click to expand...
No, I don't believe there is enough information by any stretch to come to this conclusion.

 
Dickies said:
As the husband of a teacher I find this post deeply offensive.  My wife put in WAY more time this past school year than she normally does in order to redo all of her lessons in order to make them presentable to her students remotely.  The entire year was a total ####show as neither the district nor the teachers were in familiar territory.  The parents only see that their kids are on with the teacher for 3 hours per day, so they assume the teachers are just taking the rest of the day off when they aren't on with the kids.  This couldn't be more wrong.  Every day when she got off of her classroom meeting, she would spend the rest of her day reworking her lessons for the next day, often times working well past 6:00PM.  I know a lot of teachers, and I don't know of a single one that wants to repeat last year.  They all want to return to the classroom.

We don't hear these same complaints about people in other professions that have shifted to working from home.
Click to expand...


Then push the union to make this happen.

They have been much, much less than sincere/credible during this whole time.

I know you care about the teachers.

But does the union really care?

 
Rich Conway said:
No, I don't believe there is enough information by any stretch to come to this conclusion.
Click to expand...
From the wapo over the weekend

It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.
Click to expand...

 
Max Power said:
Rich Conway said:
No, I don't believe there is enough information by any stretch to come to this conclusion.
Click to expand...
From the wapo over the weekend

It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
@Doug B has been all over this already.  This is extremely preliminary info.  They very carefully use the word "may" in "may be able to transmit".  It is not clear which viral load is similar (see Doug's posts above and in other threads).  Put simply, right now, there is not nearly enough verified information to make the claim that "Both (vaxxed and unvaxxed people) can get and spread covid at similar rates".

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Rich Conway said:
@Doug B has been all over this already.  This is extremely preliminary info.  They very carefully use the word "may" in "may be able to transmit".  It is not clear which viral load is similar (see Doug's posts above and in other threads).  Put simply, right now, there is not nearly enough verified information to make the claim that "Both (vaxxed and unvaxxed people) can get and spread covid at similar rates".
Click to expand...
Understand, but here is CNN's take on the same presentation.  The CDC director is saying it should be taken seriously.  Now isn't it better to assume that it's factual rather than downplay that the vaccinated can spread it at a similar rate?  If we're just asking the vaccinated to get tested at the same rate as the unvax'd, who is getting hurt with that? 

The Delta coronavirus variant surging across the United States appears to cause more severe illness and spread as easily as chickenpox, according to an internal document from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The document – a slide presentation – outlines unpublished data that shows fully vaccinated people might spread the Delta variant at the same rate as unvaccinated people.

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky confirmed the authenticity of the document, which was first reported by The Washington Post.

“I think people need to understand that we’re not crying wolf here. This is serious,” she told CNN.

“It’s one of the most transmissible viruses we know about. Measles, chickenpox, this – they’re all up there.”
Click to expand...

 
parasaurolophus said:
It isnt hard to make a case for what you want.  

This is all so ridiculous and repetitive. Remember when a huge outbreak was blamed on spring break, but it turned out to be a huge gay festival?

Remember when there was a huge outbreak in Korea and it turned out to be from a gay club?

I mean jesus christ already. Of course a bunch of dudes that get together and make out with each other and have sex and are more likely to be immuno suppressed (as in the vaccine might not work as well) than the general population are going to be a massive outlying subset.

And before people get all super hyper defensive about being homophobic lets not forget that this outbreak was discovered when tons of dudes were going in to get tested for STDs after the festival so it isnt actually a leap to think there was lots of extra activity going on. 

Pretty sure masks wouldnt have helped. 
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if this is the case for other people or not, but I've noticed a weird tendency for journalists to talk about Provincetown without actually explaining what the event in question was -- I assume that's to avoid being unintentionally homophobic somehow.  Here's a pretty good write-up that seems to me to provide good context, and that explains why the current anti-vax narrative surrounding this is badly misinformed:

But the environment in Provincetown over July 4 was roughly what you would have designed if you were trying to come up with a maximally efficient environment to spread COVID to the vaccinated. If this is what happens when things go wrong with vaccinated people, that's an excellent story about vaccines.
Click to expand...


https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccines-work-against-delta-covid-stop-badgering-vaccinated-wear-masks-2021-8

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I'm not sure if this is the case for other people or not, but I've noticed a weird tendency for journalists to talk about Provincetown without actually explaining what the event in question was -- I assume that's to avoid being unintentionally homophobic somehow.  Here's a pretty good write-up that seems to me to provide good context, and that explains why the current anti-vax narrative surrounding this is badly misinformed:

https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccines-work-against-delta-covid-stop-badgering-vaccinated-wear-masks-2021-8
Click to expand...
I'll be interested in the results from Lollapalooza. 

 
Max Power said:
Understand, but here is CNN's take on the same presentation.  The CDC director is saying it should be taken seriously.  Now isn't it better to assume that it's factual rather than downplay that the vaccinated can spread it at a similar rate?  If we're just asking the vaccinated to get tested at the same rate as the unvax'd, who is getting hurt with that? 
Click to expand...
Look, if an employer wants to require testing and masks for all, I'm on board.

 
crackattack said:
I won't get the shot. Not because I'm anti-vaxx. I've had covid twice now. I've got antibodies. I don't think i need it anymore.
Click to expand...
My brother has had chicken pox 3x - not a good thing.  At all.  He has never developed the antibodies for it and each time it got worse.

Getting it the second time means you're not developing antibodies enough to fight it.  For you, of almost all people, it should be a super high priority to get the vaccine.  You need it.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I'm not sure if this is the case for other people or not, but I've noticed a weird tendency for journalists to talk about Provincetown without actually explaining what the event in question was -- I assume that's to avoid being unintentionally homophobic somehow.  Here's a pretty good write-up that seems to me to provide good context, and that explains why the current anti-vax narrative surrounding this is badly misinformed:

https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccines-work-against-delta-covid-stop-badgering-vaccinated-wear-masks-2021-8
Click to expand...
Not related but curious...Does "business insider" do any actual, business inside stuff?  Cause all I ever see is voxesque articles.  

Their name seems to be somewhat false advertising.

 
Max Power said:
And I'm just pointing out the flaws in their logic
Click to expand...
You are forgetting to take into account how less likely a vaccinated person is to catch the Delta variant. While the vaccinated and unvaccinated spread it at similar rates, the vaccinated are much less likely to catch it, hence there’s no reason to treat the two groups similarly in a business sense. That changes the math greatly. Does that make sense to you?

Also, thank you for researching and considering taking the vaccine. That’s very open-minded, considering your concerns. 

 
Max Power said:
And I'm just pointing out the flaws in their logic
Click to expand...
That's kind of my point above.  I don't think it's flawed, yet.  Until the last few days, all evidence showed that vaxxed people absolutely do not get infected by and transmit COVID at the same levels as unvaxxed.  Within the last few days, there has been some minimal evidence that shows otherwise, but that info is extremely preliminary and in some cases (Provincetown), possibly suspect.  Had an employer put a vaccine mandate in place prior to this weekend, I absolutely would have expected different protocols.  If an employer is still in the process of designing its protocols, as I assume most federal agencies are, I would expect them to consider the recent data.  I would also expect everyone to evaluate new, reliable data as it comes out.

 
supermike80 said:
Not related but curious...Does "business insider" do any actual, business inside stuff?  Cause all I ever see is voxesque articles.  

Their name seems to be somewhat false advertising.
Click to expand...
No idea.  But the author of this piece seems to be obviously correct about Provincetown -- this was a serious stress test for the vaccines, and they performed extremely well.  If the vaccines protected the good folks at Bear Week, they're definitely good enough for me and my boring middle-aged life.

 
Shula-holic said:
No, but I really think we need to reassess China and it's overall threat level to our country.  I know it was mentioned by someone else upthread, but our policy toward China and the hopes to open its markets have failed miserably.  They are not our friends and we need to address it as such.  I don't think I could come up with a strong enough word for what I call sending money their way in the current climate and economic outlook for both countries.
Click to expand...


I'd easily agree that we don't belong sending China money for anything. 

 
Sand said:
My brother has had chicken pox 3x - not a good thing.  At all.  He has never developed the antibodies for it and each time it got worse.

Getting it the second time means you're not developing antibodies enough to fight it.  For you, of almost all people, it should be a super high priority to get the vaccine.  You need it.
Click to expand...
Not to de-rail but I had a major case of chicken pox as an adult when my kids were little.  I has the blisters everywhere and I mean everywhere:  on my private parts, my gums, down my throat, etc.   My mom swore that I had them when I was little but I was the last of 6 kids so I thought maybe she was mistaken.

I've already had shingles once and am now vaccinated against that so hopefully I'm protected now cause chicken pox/shingles in adults is no fun.

 
The Football Freak said:
You are forgetting to take into account how less likely a vaccinated person is to catch the Delta variant. While the vaccinated and unvaccinated spread it at similar rates, the vaccinated are much less likely to catch it, hence there’s no reason to treat the two groups similarly in a business sense. That changes the math greatly. Does that make sense to you?

Also, thank you for researching and considering taking the vaccine. That’s very open-minded, considering your concerns. 
Click to expand...
But are they really less likely to catch covid or not show symptoms? I think we're assuming here, unless there is data out there to show it.

Asymptomatic vaccinated people have zero reason to get tested, but could spread.

There are plenty of variables in play. Vaccinated people who go to large gatherings or partake in bear orgies are more likely to get covid than the unvaxd guy who stays home and plays video games all weekend..

If avoiding bringing covid into the workplace is the main objective, the other variables are just noise and we should all be tested the same imo.

 
Sure, vaccinated people can and will get the virus, especially the highly contagious delta variant. But they are MUCH less likely to be hospitalized or die from it. The vast majority of hospitalizations and deaths are from unvaccinated people. This is far and away the most important reason to get the vaccine.

 
identikit said:
Then push the union to make this happen.

They have been much, much less than sincere/credible during this whole time.

I know you care about the teachers.

But does the union really care?
Click to expand...
I think the union cares about the well being of the teachers.  I know that our district as of now is requiring the kids and teachers to wear masks in the classroom.  Given that her students are too young to be vaccinated, she would be very nervous about being in a classroom with 25 unmasked, unvaccinated kids every day.  She wants to go back into the classroom, but also wants to make sure minimal safety standards are in place.  I hope the vocal minority calling for kids not to wear masks to school does not get their way.

 
U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham announced Monday that he has tested positive for COVID-19 after being vaccinated for the virus.

 
Godsbrother said:
Not to de-rail but I had a major case of chicken pox as an adult when my kids were little.  I has the blisters everywhere and I mean everywhere:  on my private parts, my gums, down my throat, etc.   My mom swore that I had them when I was little but I was the last of 6 kids so I thought maybe she was mistaken.

I've already had shingles once and am now vaccinated against that so hopefully I'm protected now cause chicken pox/shingles in adults is no fun.
Click to expand...
My brother had that and blisters in his eyes - docs were worried if he got it again he may have eye damage.  When his daughter had it he had to move out of the house for a while.

All that is really strange because he's otherwise a super healthy guy.  Just one disease his immune system refuses to fight.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack.  I was using it as an example of how those that don't have perfect immune systems are the biggest winners for getting the vaccine.

 
supermike80 said:
It's VERY hard for people to get behind the narrative that was shoved into their faces repeatedly to trust the science when the science is changing as frequently as it is.  It's quite frankly another dumb slogan from the democrats.  
Click to expand...
Ok....that's a person problem, not a science problem as I pointed out in my earlier comments.  I'd ask them to learn a bit about how science works on their own rather than being spoon fed whatever narrative their politicians are giving them.  Relying on politicians to accurately portray a series of events is as smart as relying on facebook or our MSM as your source of "news".  And of course, this isn't unique to one side or the other even though you bring up only one side.

 
Max Power said:
U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham announced Monday that he has tested positive for COVID-19 after being vaccinated for the virus.
Click to expand...
Reported on CNN, but they didn't mention that Graham was vaccinated. EDIT: The TV guy didn't mention it, but CNN's online coverage says Graham was vaxed.

Graham was on Joe Manchin's boat this past weekend. CNN did make it a point to note that Manchin was vaccinated. Hmm. Off to Google News.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Commish said:
Ok....that's a person problem, not a science problem as I pointed out in my earlier comments.  I'd ask them to learn a bit about how science works on their own rather than being spoon fed whatever narrative their politicians are giving them.  Relying on politicians to accurately portray a series of events is as smart as relying on facebook or our MSM as your source of "news".  And of course, this isn't unique to one side or the other even though you bring up only one side.
Click to expand...
"Thats how science works" is the dumbest thing I keep hearing in all of this. It isnt how science works. Constant changing recos based on small anomalies is not how science works at all. 

Not even freaking close.

 
Doug B said:
Reported on CNN, but they didn't mention that Graham was vaccinated. EDIT: The TV guy didn't mention it, but CNN's online coverage says Graham was vaxed.

Graham was on Joe Manchin's boat this past weekend. CNN did make it a point to note that Manchin was vaccinated. Hmm. Off to Google News.
Click to expand...
For the small % of breakthrough cases there are, I feel like I know of or have heard of a disproportionate amount the folks. 

 
Max Power said:
For the small % of breakthrough cases there are, I feel like I know of or have heard of a disproportionate amount the folks. 
Click to expand...
Confirmation bias for sure ... but I have the same impression.

Then again -- the existence of low-symptom breakthrough cases is a big reason that a lot of us in the FFA thread feel like it's time to de-emphasize raw case counts. But "case counts!" bleed, lead, etc.

 
The COVID Delta Surge Is Creating a Messaging Cluster* (Vanity Fair, 8/2/2021)

Biden’s team is frustrated with “hyperbolic” and “irresponsible” media coverage, while tensions have reportedly flared inside the administration over how best to communicate with the public. 

The national response to the pandemic is being forced to evolve along with the virus itself, a disruption that the Biden administration is struggling to effectively address in real time. The spread of the delta variant—and conflicting opinions about how best to address it—has led to “behind-the-scenes finger-pointing and weeks-long tensions between the CDC and the White House,” Politico reports, friction that helps inform the string of communications failures that have plagued the administration of late. Biden officials have been “openly frustrated by what they see as overly alarmed coverage” of so-called breakthrough cases among the vaccinated, according to Politico, which senior West Wing officials note are “exceedingly rare, unlikely to be severe, and more likely to occur in crowded indoor settings.”
Click to expand...

 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

GordonGekko
Biden Violates Own "Disrespect" Edict By Refusing To Fire WHPS Psaki (4/18/22 18:29PST)
Replies
14
Views
596
JIslander
J
GordonGekko
Operation Fast & Furious Scandal: Obama Administration's ATF Sent Guns To Drug Cartels (5/27/22 20:22 PST)
Replies
7
Views
534
Max Power
Max Power
GordonGekko
Biden Administration Considering Sending Gas Rebate Cards To Millions Of Americans (6/18/22 19:28 PST)
Replies
43
Views
1K
AAABatteries
AAABatteries

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 12 (members: 0, guests: 12)
Top