Max Power
Footballguy
I appreciate the feedback. Using the term motives over data explains a lot of it. It just makes it difficult to follow the science at times.
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Government Response To The Coronavirus (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Not sure if anybody has posted Osterholm's comments yet...
Max Power
Footballguy
We've known this for over a year now and it hasn't gained any traction yet. Masks arent about safety.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I supported masks and still support N95 masks and KN95 masks.
But it is painfully obvious at this point that masks have become about signaling. This is exactly why the whole exhalation valve stupidity still exists.
The valve is a visible cue. Nothing more, nothing less. Anybody advocating against them is just uninformed or doesnt care about the actual effectiveness and just wants to be on the team.
It is pitiful.
The Commish
Footballguy
How do protected class laws come into play here exactly? I don't see it that way, but maybe I'm missing something. In my view, masks are significantly closer to "no shoes, no shirt, no service" or not being allowed to walk around naked just because you want to, but again, maybe I'm missing something.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
That with personal protection? Correct?
Not two people wearing surgical or multi layer cloth and their effectiveness. Which combined with a decent percentage of vaccinated still provides more protection than no masks and relying on the unvaccinated to wear N95s.
Dickies
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I'm guessing most people infatuated with everyone getting covid shots are also the same ones who are for all these illegally here people ?
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-cases-migrants-rio-grande-valley-sector-border-numbers
EXCLUSIVE: The number of detainees who tested positive for COVID-19 in the Rio Grande Valley (RGV) Sector alone has increased by 900%, according to information obtained by Fox News.
The Biden administration has been struggling to get a grip of the crisis at the southern border, which saw more than 188,000 migrants encountered in June alone -- including a 25% increase in the number of family units encountered.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/covid-cases-migrants-rio-grande-valley-sector-border-numbers
EXCLUSIVE: The number of detainees who tested positive for COVID-19 in the Rio Grande Valley (RGV) Sector alone has increased by 900%, according to information obtained by Fox News.
The Biden administration has been struggling to get a grip of the crisis at the southern border, which saw more than 188,000 migrants encountered in June alone -- including a 25% increase in the number of family units encountered.
Herb
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
His comments did not address what I said. And focussed in those not vaccinated or who have not been infected thus having antibodies.
It was some of what we already know about masks as your own protection. Little to nothing as far as what protection everyone masked plus some vaccinated has. But thanks.
Max Power
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Are not very…how much. How much when both are wearing. How much is it simple one layer cloth vs three layer and so on?
Its nit as cut and dry as you think despite then condescending attitude.
And realize I have read up on this from more than just him. And that the idea of a new kn95 daily is not realistic for anyone.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
KN95s are like $0.39 now. You can get 8hrs of use and then wash them and blow dry them to give them back static charge and get two more days out of them with minimal degredation (have to wash twice total to get 3 wears per mask, washing is done with just hot water).
So yes, it is very feasible.
Doug B
Footballguy
The hitch is the "many of" part. Osterholm is saying that some cloth masks are effective, then?
Otherwise, he's just reiterating the obvious:
a) Yes, flimsy and poorly-sealed bandanas and gaiters offer poor protection. Likely the same for cheapo cloth masks made for show.
b) Yes, N95s will outperform other types of masks.
I don't hear in his words "Wear an N95, or else don't waste your time." Osterholm makes assertions but doesn't mention any backing data or citations (to be fair, it was a quick-and-dirty interview on television). I'm not swayed by his "smelling smoke" analogy without more information, because I don't believe totally blocking molecule-sized particles (which is what you smell) is comparable to (say) ~80% blocking of exhaled droplets.
He may well be correct in a broad sense. Yet I want to unpack that "many of" section, and know more about the cloth masks he apparently feels like offer at least good-enough protection (if not at the N95 level). Is he just doing the "scientist's hedge" about cloth masks -- leaving open the prospect that some cloth mask somewhere offers decent protection -- or does he really mean "N95s or nothing"?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
oh it absolutely is partisan - I mean violence shouldn't be partisan, poverty, killing unborn babies, etc etc but it absolutely is
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
He has done more than one interview. His pbs one was like 15 minutes. His comments arent hard to find. But that snippet was a clear summation.
Doug B
Footballguy
I will look for something in print or online. He's published some articles before.
If I saw Osterholm in person and had the opportunity to talk shop ... the first thing I would ask him about is unpacking his "many of the cloth masks" bit. Is it or is it not a blanket condemnation? He left the door open.
Doug B
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
In Germany, cloth masks are basically banned. Customers in public business (grocery stores, restaurants, etc) are required to wear N95/KN95/FFP. Other businesses can require the blue/white or the N95's for their employees. Cloth has been banned since at least November IIRC.
My first thought was that the whole HCQ thing was a coping mechanism. People stressed out from the pandemic grabbing onto any cure they believed would end the nightmare. But then the vaccine came out and gave an actual way to beat the pandemic and they want nothing to do with it. But sign me up for the malaria drug and high doses of an anti-parasitic.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
To be fair, the information around specific types of masks has always been incredibly confusing. I did a fair amount of research around it last year, not out of idle curiosity but because I was being forced to go into the office and didn't want to endanger my health or that of my family. And I still found it difficult to figure out. I started with basic cloth masks, then shifted to multi-layer cloth with removable filters, and then ended up on KF94s. (Then I got vaxxed and mostly stopped worrying, so I went back to my basic cloth ones until this week, when I placed an order for more KF94s). I didn't order N95s because I read that proles like me should leave them for medical professionals, and I shied away from KN95s because I wasn't sure how to evaluate the quality. But even with the KF94s I ended up getting, they initially left lots of gaps and I had to separately order headband connectors to use on the back of my head and ensure a better fit.
It's really a shame that no entrepreneurs recognized the opportunity to launch a kind of "masks for dummies" brand, similar to those wine stores that cater to people who are clueless about wine. It's like, here's what you need, making use of the best (affordable) technology, sourced from China or Korea or wherever but we guarantee the quality, maybe a little bit of fashion sprinkled on top, and the margin is slightly higher because you're paying for trust.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Scott Alexander has thoughts on the FDA. (This is just one snippet from a much-longer article).
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/adumbrations-of-aducanumab
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/adumbrations-of-aducanumab
dawgtrails
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
things I've read makes me think that
the oddest thing is that when Trump was in office, Democrats/left/liberals were like hell no, aint getting no shots if Trump says to, even Kamala said no no no, no way
the same people now have got their shots and are wanting everyone else to
I wonder ... if Trump had won, would all the anti-Trumpers been pro-vaccine or not?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Sold anti-Trumper that would have gotten the vaccination as soon as it was approved by the FDA no matter who was president.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
That's not what she said. I watched it live. I've gone back and read the transcripts. You should do the same.
moleculo
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
Can you at least acknowledge some of the campaign rhetoric by the dems during the run up to election has contributed to the hesitancy? It was open season on questioning the vaccine.
Herb
Footballguy
I don't recall any of this happening. Anyone I know was going to get the vaccine ASAP regardless of who was president, myself included. I'm not sure where you're getting your information.
Herb
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I recall people saying they wouldn't take the Trump's administration's word that a new vaccine was safe and effective until the FDA approved it. The concern was that something would get rushed so it was available before the election
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I was certainly no fan of Trump, but after spending a year losing family members to this virus and waking up every day in fear of my long-term health, there was no ####ing way I was going to refuse the vaccine just to spite him. (Related: When my dad was in the ICU very early on during the pandemic, I asked multiple doctors about the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine. If they had recommended it, I wouldn't have cared whether it was endorsed by Satan himself; I just wanted whatever would give him the best chance of surviving. As it happened, none of them said it was an effective treatment.)
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Can you find some of that rhetoric for me? Specifically, can you find the actual rhetoric, not what Fox News (et.al.) said it was? Because I tend to find that it's similar to this situation, where what Kamala Harris actually said is wildly different than what those on the right say she said.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Incidentally, the person most responsible for pushing the conspiracy theory that Trump was pressuring the FDA to approve the vaccine before the election was ... Donald Trump.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Is any of that untrue, though? To me, all of that boiled down to "the administration, federal government, and all agencies involved need to be transparent and release all the available data". That seems like a good thing.
Max Power
Footballguy
I linked some video clips and left Kamala out.
But your point ties back in to the distrust of the MSM. They air those clips in a way that portrays the angle they want it to. Both sides do it. MSM isn't guilt-free either when it comes to vaccine hesitancy. Heck they might be the lead culprit.
Max Power
Footballguy
Are you saying the vaccines didn't go through all the testing that needs to be done? Was that testing not needed anyway?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Biden was being quite clear that the federal government would need to be open and transparent about the process of vaccine approvals before people should trust it. Again, that seems like a good thing.
Dickies
Footballguy
I think I posted in the FFA thread back when Trump was president that I’d be first in line to get the vaccine as soon as it’s available. Not everyone sees every issue as a political one, nor do they base their personal health decisions on who is president at the time.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
Quoting..
“If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests … and trials that are needed to be done.”
You said nothing Biden said was untrue. So I'm asking for clarification. The vaccines did go through all the normal tests and trials they needed to for approval?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
its a part of what she said yes - she wouldn't trust Trump. But you know that, you're read it
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I notice you've now latched on to that one and ignored the other three you originally posted. Yes, that one statement from Biden appears problematic on its face, although I notice that what is quoted is incomplete. It would be nice to see what was sniped by the ...
Stealthycat
Footballguy
really ?
"I'm not taking it" .... if Trump approved it. Only if people she trusted would she then take it - that's what she said
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/2020-vp-debate-kamala-harris-on-coronavirus-vaccine/#x
Stealthycat
Footballguy
“Because already you have, what percent is American people saying if the vaccine were there tomorrow, they wouldn’t take it? And it’s not the usual anti-vaccine crowd it’s beyond that because people are losing faith in what the president says. Think about it.”
I have zero faith in Biden and this administration
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