Do masks in school really make a difference when half the kids don't wear one properly, they take them off for lunch, they likely wear cheap cloth masks, and they sit in the same classroom all day?
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Government Response To The Coronavirus (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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supermike80
Footballguy
No. But people FEEL better. And thats all that matters in this case.
There is no science behind this whatsoever
The Commish
Footballguy
Don't have an account with NYT. Don't know what it says. But at the same time I'm not sure I could care less what the NYT says. I am just telling you what actually happened here in Florida GB. And there is no question that COVID has free reign here in the state. Fortunately, they've tried to provide access to reactive treatments and deaths have been less of a problem with this wave.
I wish they'd spend the time pushing the "experimental" vaccine as hard as they push the "experimental" antibody treatments.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Okay. Let's say for the sake of argument that Florida's surge started tapering off in late July or early August. Reopening schools without masks did not change that trajectory. Cases have continued to fall rapidly since school started. I don't recall very many people predicting that that would happen, but I do remember a lot of people predicting the opposite.
The Commish
Footballguy
With delta, hasn't the MO been from the beginning that it comes in blazing hot then once the plateau hits, it drops rapidly? That's exactly what I'd expect here in Florida given our approach of basically letting it blaze through the state. With delta we were WELL above any of our "highs" in the first waves. It did it's thing here for sure.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Basically, yeah. Florida has done quite a bit wrong during the pandemic, and definitely it would have been better to have more people vaccinated. I'm just pointing out that reopening schools ended up being fine.
Florida definitely has a "##### eating crackers" thing going on right now. Some of that is earned, but it leads to people saying things like "I can't believing Florida is relaxing its quarantine rules in schools" when lots of other jurisdictions are doing the same thing. It takes some effort to break out of that mind-set, and looking at data helps a lot.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I have a TON of issues with some decisions my state has made but the quarantine rules that just came out aren't part of that. I don't have a particular problem with them as they are written at the moment.
That said, I've earned a few nights on the couch because of disagreement with my scientist wife. This is primarily because while she's a scientist and understands that she needs to follow the data, that's incredibly difficult for her as a mother not to allow her motherly emotion take over. Me? I don't have that issue, so when I push back I get a pillow. I continue to wear a mask out in public primarily as an example for my kids who can't be vaccinated. Like I've said so many times before, my attitude shifts dramatically once Feb rolls around and our entire household can be vaccinated.
The last point I'll make is that schools might have ended up being "fine" from a virus perspective, but so far this year, it's been more chaotic than at any other point since this thing started and that includes the insta-switch to online only after spring break in 2020. It's been a complete ####show in our county and our kids are more unstablized now than at any other point. We literally don't know from one day to the next if they get to go to school or not. I'll leave it at that as now we are trending into a good portion of that TON of issues I referred to earlier.
ETA: I WILL say, I've learned that the "ventilation" meme isn't nearly as rock solid as people want to believe it is either. Our school is a charter school and a supporter paid for the entire system to be completely revamped. It's state of the art. We've had more problems this year than at any other point during this whole event. Is this an anecdote? Absolutely. And this is coming from someone who was shouting from the rooftops about this as a really good way to mitigate. Turns out, I was wrong.
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fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I wonder if an “unvaccinated firing lottery” would be more effective public policy than terminating all unvaccinated employees at once. I have concerns about the ability of already-understaffed hospitals, nursing homes and schools to function if they fire 10% of their enployees at once. Maybe it should be like “all unvaccinated employees are put into a pool and 5% of them will be fired each week until they’re all gone.”
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Max Power
Footballguy
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
It's almost like a policy based on fear mongering can not only be dumb, it's actually counter productive. Lose-Lose!
Science!
Max Power
Footballguy
I think the DoD chain of command is coming around on how dumb our covid safety policies are.
Both Vaccinated and Unvaccinated need a negative test within 3 days before DoD travel or going to a DoD event. The problem is that tests can take a day or two to get the results back and we get our share of asymptomatic positives. Meaning a day or two before an event, we have to find a replacement and get them tested get all the logistics right for a new person and all the jazz that goes with movement. Praying that person doesn't test positive otherwise we miss movement. Bot to mention the events where there is no backup. The person going is the only point of contact for that issue.
So our solution is to test THREE people for every one movement. Which hurts when some of these movements are for months at a time. People literally don't know if they leaving their families in 48 hours or not. There are also a ton of requirements that go into getting someone ready and approved to travel for months at a time.
Asymptomatic positives have to quarantine for 5-7 days.
Unvaccinated arent generally considered for these openings as they have to quarantine for 10 days post any travel to our home base.
Bottomline we are doing 3x times the planning for the same amount of labor production and this is mainly the vaccinated people!
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
There are going to be huge protests Monday due to the vaccine mandate for NYC teachers. They have to have at least one shot by Monday or they are fired (I believe a judge stayed the decision to hear the case until Wed. Only 87% of NYC DOE staff is vaxxed.
Willy
Footballguy
A girl threatened with charges or jail over her COVID social media posts has won a lawsuit against the sheriff
In other government response news, the 16 year old girl who was told she'd go to jail if she didn't take down a post where she claimed she had gotten and beaten Covid19 won her free speech lawsuit. I forgot about this story, it was truly surreal.
For those who can't view the story(might be pay walled): A high school girl comes back sick from spring break March 2020 in Florida. She tests negative, but her doctors say she probably had it, and the test was just a false negative. She posts her ordeal on Instagram, claiming she had beaten Covid and everyone should stay safe. Local officials fear this will cause a panic because at this time it was very early on in the pandemic and no one in the county had a confirmed case yet. So they send out communications basically saying the girl is full of crap and they are dealing with it.
The sheriff shows up at her door and demands she take down the post or face jail time for causing panic or some such crap.
What a crazy story. People often misunderstand what is an actual 1st amendment violation. This is what they look like.
In other government response news, the 16 year old girl who was told she'd go to jail if she didn't take down a post where she claimed she had gotten and beaten Covid19 won her free speech lawsuit. I forgot about this story, it was truly surreal.
For those who can't view the story(might be pay walled): A high school girl comes back sick from spring break March 2020 in Florida. She tests negative, but her doctors say she probably had it, and the test was just a false negative. She posts her ordeal on Instagram, claiming she had beaten Covid and everyone should stay safe. Local officials fear this will cause a panic because at this time it was very early on in the pandemic and no one in the county had a confirmed case yet. So they send out communications basically saying the girl is full of crap and they are dealing with it.
The sheriff shows up at her door and demands she take down the post or face jail time for causing panic or some such crap.
What a crazy story. People often misunderstand what is an actual 1st amendment violation. This is what they look like.
Sadly Mike Tagliere died from covid. Fully vaxxed. Here we have a 39 year old who trusted the vax was gonna protect him. It did not because it doesn't work. You think it does but it wears off and you are just like those of us who didn't get the shot (its not a vaccine) its a treatment and the treatment wears off faster than you think. its now estimated to be between 4-6 months. What a massive failure. So if you want this to work, you need a booster every 4 months to be sure. Figure it out yet?
The solution, as all the best doctors on the planet say is, 'get early treatment'.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
How do you explain the fact that vaccinated people die from covid-19 at a far, far lower rate than unvaccinated people, if the vaccines don't work? There's a massive amount of evidence sitting right there in front of you that decisively refutes that statement.
The Commish
Footballguy
Your definition of "work" (and the definition shared by a majority of people) is significantly different than the definition he's using created by God knows who.
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Max Power
Footballguy
There is a theory floating around that the vaccine might help people not develop "serious" cases. But once a person is hospitalized because of Covid, the mortality rate is the same between vax'd and unvaxed.
Sand
Footballguy
Folks misunderstand statistics. There is nothing that is foolproof, nothing that is 100%. The answer is to reduce risk as much as possible and that includes vaccines, early treatment, testing if necessary, etc. Sadly Mr. Tagliere was one of the few for whom the vax didn't prevent his death. That's going to happen, but at a much, much lower rate than those who haven't been vaccinated.
And, as far as boosters, we got a vaccine in under a year. Even if it does just buy an immune response every 6 months, that's still an insane achievement. Vaccines usually take a decade or more. There will be improvements to vaccines (maybe the new DNA vaccine mixed in to help?), improvements to treatments, etc. This will eventually wash it's way through the world's population and become a background hum.
Though, we should definitely thank the Chinese government for all this joy in getting there. I, for one, will never forget they are responsible for this incredible mess.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Any links? Or all theory. Bear in mind more of the vaxxed in hospitals are significantly older than the unvaxxed. Just another variable. I have 3 nurses living within 5 houses of us who pass along what they see in the local Wake-Med hospitals (near Raleigh, NC).
Max Power
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
I'll do some more digging when I have a minute. It's a theory based on a set of stats that I came across several days ago. I'll post when I find it.
Totally agree that the vax'd community is more at risk to start with, so yes there are variables involved. They tend to be older and unhealthier to start with.
People weren’t told the seatbelt would stop car accidents. As far as the vaccine stopping you from contracting the virus, it does appear to be quite useless.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
I think it's 92 and 8 but that's just a population proportion. If you take the vaxxed population to be roughly 64%, then m back of the napkin math tells me that non-vaxed are ~41x more likely to end up in the hospital. It's early though so I could be off by a little. Or not even close
The Commish
Footballguy
Who told any of us the vaccines would stop the virus 100%?
dozer
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Didn't think so...weird narrative. We knew at the very beginning if the entire world got vaccinated at the same time, well over 800M people would STILL get the virus. This narrative of "they lied to us, people still get the virus after getting vaccinated" is just dumb, although predictable.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
It's almost as if these folks are just seizing on any argument they can find to advance a pre-determined agenda.
massraider
Footballguy
The CDC says yes, they conducted a study. Feel free to use your Google machine.
A study in Arizona showed schools with no masking requirement were about 3.5 times more likely to have a Covid-19 outbreak than schools that had a universal masking requirement. https://t.co/xXx4SkEi2s
massraider
Footballguy
I have the vaccine, and haven't contracted the virus.
I haven't contracted the virus 100% of the days since it started, so I guess this vaccine is 100% effective.
Max Power
Footballguy
I'll agree being vaccinated reduces your risk of a trip to the hospital due to covid alone. The vaccinated population does tend to be older and have more health problems, so they utilize the hospitals just as much if not more.
The point I was simply trying to make is that if you go to the hospital for Covid alone, the mortality rates are probably similiar between the vax'd and unvax'd.
The Commish
Footballguy
Trying to follow your example GB and stay above it, but I don't know how you do it so consistently. I feel like Austin Powers and the MOLE with some of these comments.
Max Power
Footballguy
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201 Technical Brief 23 - Table 5
The reporting cautions against using the raw numbers to make definitive conclusions as there are many additional variables, but it's an interesting data set.
Sand
Footballguy
What's the reason for vaccinated people having to wear masks if it's not that vaccinated people still carry the virus? At a much more significant rate than first thought. You know when they were telling everyone - get the shot, ditch the mask. TIA
People running around saying "no one said 100%" are being disingenuous or just ignorant. We know breakout cases aren't exactly rare as their name hints.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I think it's asinine that anybody expects vaccinated people to wear masks, and I've argued as much since May or so.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
Replacing short staffed healthcare workers with other short staffed healthcare workers solves which problem?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I would assume the goal is to replace the unvaxxed workers who shouldn't be working in close proximity to patients. Good for her.
Max Power
Footballguy
The point is they are pulling out of state healthcare workers from locations that are also understaffed. This isn't problem solving.
Sand
Footballguy
Sand
Footballguy
I certainly have never expressed the thought that vaccines are 100%. They're not, but we have a journalist class that were largely liberal arts majors who like to posit very simple conclusions in the press. That's largely where that thought came from.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
OK, so what's your suggestion? If the workers refuse to get vaxxed, how else do you want them replaced?
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