So the answer is no rules have been released yet. That's exactly where we were the day after Biden's speech, a week after that, a week after that, and yesterday. So really no update at all.
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Government Response To The Coronavirus (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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So the answer is no rules have been released yet. That's exactly where we were the day after Biden's speech, a week after that, a week after that, and yesterday. So really no update at all.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
In an article published by New York Times reporter Apoorva Mandavilli on Wednesday, Times readers were told that “nearly 900,000 children have been hospitalized with COVID-19 since the pandemic began.”
A correction issued on Thursday notes that the correct number is 63,000 between August 2020 and October 2021, which means Mandavilli exaggerated the number of child hospitalizations by 837,000 cases. Approximately 500 American children have eventually died from the disease.
NYT lies - they are politically agenda motivated and are an untrustworthy news source
squistion
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1447539984634765314
Dr. Fauci tells CNN that it's safe for Americans and their kids to trick-or-treat on Halloween:
"Particularly if you're vaccinated, you can get out there. You're outdoors for the most part, at least when my children were out there doing trick-or-treating, and enjoy it."
Dr. Fauci tells CNN that it's safe for Americans and their kids to trick-or-treat on Halloween:
"Particularly if you're vaccinated, you can get out there. You're outdoors for the most part, at least when my children were out there doing trick-or-treating, and enjoy it."
Stealthycat
Footballguy
https://www.foxnews.com/us/wyoming-girl-suspended-arrested-trespassing-mask-mandate
bully them, humiliate them , socially shame them and if you still can't force them to do what you want, handcuff's, throw them in jail, ..
love that girl
bully them, humiliate them , socially shame them and if you still can't force them to do what you want, handcuff's, throw them in jail, ..
love that girl
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Please don't pretend this is a one way street. I know you love anecdotes - I have never personally seen it from this direction, but I can't tell you how many times I've encountered people calling people with masks on "sheep" or confronting our teenage employees about it in a similar tone.
ETA: long story short, people are tools on both sides of this issue.
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Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
You posted the wrong link - https://nypost.com/2018/09/03/teen-arrested-in-feud-over-dress-code-protest-t-shirt-cops/
squistion
Footballguy
It should be noted that she was not arrested for not wearing a mask (as some people on social media have been claiming) she was arrested for refusing to leave school grounds.
The Commish
Footballguy
It's always interesting to see the predictability of "sides" in this sort of reporting. It really is a perfect illustration of what's wrong with the country. For every report of an anti-mask incident there's one for pro-mask. It's pretty disheartening that people are bickering over this. It's also pretty disheartening that they associate this with "rights". Kids are being lead astray by both "sides" in this whole thing. It's a big reason why I don't bring up these anecdotes as "evidence" of anything. There just is no point. It's disgusting behavior no matter what side you're on from the "my 'rights' are being taken away because I have to wear a mask" to requiring significant police presence at school board meetings. It's madness and our kids deserve better.
Sand
Footballguy
Mile High
Footballguy
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Sand said:
She should watch the news more. If she burned the school down CNN would call it a "mostly peaceful protest". Another possibility she could've called the school property a "CHAZ" zone and had a "Fall of Love" (admit it doesn't sound as good as "Summer of Love"). Another possibility maybe "Occupy School" and she could set up a tent and camp out. So many options to get liberals behind her on this one...missed opportunity.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
One of the things about this is that many of the things that are being argued over are battles that the liberals (lower case "l" liberal) lost. Being suspended and arrested for not wearing a mask is to me no different than the dime a dozen being suspended and arrested for silly dress code violations. Being forced to be vaccinated for employment is no different than numerous "non of their business" battles that employees lost to employers. After the Boston Marathon bombing I was stunned that the police could just shut down the entire area so they could look for one person. If not for someone more or less violating that order to step outside for a minute how long would it have lasted?The Commish said:
In many ways I find myself sympathetic to the "I have my rights" side of the argument, except in almost every one of the above they were on the side that lead us to this point where most of us don't even question these loses. I guess if things had been different then it could be hypocritical to find such measures okay for Covid when not okay in the past, but as it is its just that we already lost these battles long ago.
How is wearing a mask that covers your mouth and nose at school really something to get upset about after seeing suspensions and similar arrests because shoulders were not properly covered? How is being forced to get a Covid vaccine really different than being forced to get a flu shot, or worst yet submit to drug testing by an employer? And if we shut down a city because one barely alive terrorist is roaming the streets how do you argue with shutting down when a deadly, contagious virus is seemingly out of control? How are any of these just not battles fought and won or lost (depending on your perspective) long ago?
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The Commish
Footballguy
We could go on and on honestly and independent of this vaccine/mask issue. There are people outraged and spitting fire that the IRS wants to know about $600 transactions when the groundwork for such rules were established in the Patriot Act that they cheered on. Really? How are people pissing and moaning about how they are treated on a social media site when they agreed to that treatment in their ToS. Selective outrage is where it's at apparently from being told how a business expects you go behave while in their establishment to treatment of the flag to bodily rights. Remember...corporations are people too!!! Until they aren't on your side, then they are overreaching. Doesn't matter. I don't think many even try to be consistent anymore. Follow the talking points is all that matters anymore.
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Max Power
Footballguy
From what I've heard it sounds like OSHA will have trouble legally mandating this. The 100 employee cutoff complicates the "safety" aspect in this scenario. If they want to claim covid in the workplace is a safety hazard, they can't draw an artificial line on who it applies to and conduct inspections based on overall employee numbers.
A worker in a 50 person office should have the same safety protections as a worker in 100 person office. This makes it extremely difficult to mandate.
There is also the aspect of the public entering your workspace if your company requires vaccinations for employees but not customers.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Oftentimes there are competing rights at play. So whatever right you are trying to assert with a corporation vaccine mandate (assume a public safety exception) is competing with an individuals right to privacy. It's like Roe v. Wade. Where does the corporations safety interests begin and the individuals privacy rights? I'm sure we'll be finding out from the Supreme Court in the future.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Why are these privacy rights for employees just now being discovered? We have had employees subjected to drug tests. We have had employees mandated to get other vaccines prior to Covid. We have had employees fired based on their personal social media posts. We have had employees fired because they smoked in their own homes. Corporate employer interests have superseded employee privacy for a long time. What makes the Covid vaccination so different from all that came before it? What makes it the unacceptable intrusion of employee privacy that these other things were not? Which of these other things are we now realizing that society got wrong? Which of these other things will the Supreme Court correct in this future ruling?
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
squistion said:
sure, yeah ... that's what she was arrested for
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
You have a lot of questions. You seem to know legal issues so I guess you are asking rhetorical questions and you already know the answers. In the case of drug testing you are asking someone to not put something into their bodies that may affect their performance. What makes a vaccine different is that you are asking someone to put something INTO their bodies that has no affect on how they will perform their duties.
Courts imposing a least restrictive means test would/should say that there are other less restrictive methods of protection for COVID transmission rather than forcing a vaccine mandate (eg., masks, contact tracing, weekly/daily testing). I'm not sure there is a less restrictive method to determine if someone has used illegal drugs, maybe there is.
Sand
Footballguy
Notwithstanding the fact I have always hated the PA, in the meantime between when that started and now we've seen the IRS weaponized heavily, and as is typical when outed there is zero accountability. That kind of behavior is remembered and why folks are very leery of giving the IRS more power. They've abused what they have.
Yeah, I can find and cite numerous examples of places like this hoovering in data regardless of what's in the ToS. If these companies were in charge of vaccinations they'd sneak it into your oatmeal, promise that they weren't doing that, selling the list of those they sneaked it in on to who knows who, getting called before Congress and given a stern talking to. Maybe not the best example.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
This is wrong! Never hear that the "best ability is availability"? And in the case of a highly contagious virus this also impacts the coworkers' availability.
This is sort of true, but not really applicable when discussing employer rights to impose upon employees which was the point in both the posts that @The Commish replied to and my post to you. The levels of scrutiny apply to government infringement upon one's rights, not an employer's.
Now maybe you are replying from the context of the government imposing a vaccine mandate which would change things some but now you are arguing from the government imposing regulations on employers rather than imposing on the rights of employees. It becomes more like smoking bans which also seems rather settled to me.
My question was rhetorical. Hence my notation that it should be a high priority if they were actually serious about it. But the good news is that Fish has assured us, based upon a story without a link, that the rules will be out shortly!!! I feel much safer knowing that because apparently the vaccine that I took twice is useless to protect me from this virus.
Max Power
Footballguy
Gotcha. I don't think anything will be released shortly. It's becoming clear Biden just throws #### against a wall and sees what sticks. This wont stick. The federal workforce mandate is already hitting snags with the lawyers and that was way less complicated.
At least the vaccine will keep you safe until you do catch covid and acquire natural immunity.
the moops
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
LawFitz
Footballguy
I doubt they had any expectation that this OSHA mandate would stick under legal scrutiny. What they gambled on and seem to be winning on is that companies would panic and set mandates in advance of the full implementation and during any window of court challenge. That process could take months or longer, and in the meantime people are being forced to get jabbed or lose their livelihoods. This is a truly heinous moment in the history of our republic.
Max Power
Footballguy
I agree and I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. How bad it gets is the real question.
The Commish
Footballguy
The overall point I was making is how random and arbitrary most are with the lines they draw. You pick the topic, I can give an example. For the IRS example, people are absolutely horrified that the IRS would be made aware of any transactions $600 or more, but were silent on the laws put in place that required banks/financial institutions to turn over damn near ANY record of transactions of an individual without said individual's consent. It's tough for me to take the $600 guy seriously under those circumstances.Notwithstanding the fact I have always hated the PA, in the meantime between when that started and now we've seen the IRS weaponized heavily, and as is typical when outed there is zero accountability. That kind of behavior is remembered and why folks are very leery of giving the IRS more power. They've abused what they have.
Yeah, I can find and cite numerous examples of places like this hoovering in data regardless of what's in the ToS. If these companies were in charge of vaccinations they'd sneak it into your oatmeal, promise that they weren't doing that, selling the list of those they sneaked it in on to who knows who, getting called before Congress and given a stern talking to. Maybe not the best example.
To the bold...where the hell were you back in a handful of us were taking a beating for being "anti-American" as we voiced our displeasure with the groundwork that piece of legislation was laying. Could have used a few more on our side. It was a relatively lonely island around here <_<
The Commish
Footballguy
You'd have to explain this more because vaccines as a term for employment have been around forever and aren't new. Yet, I am hearing this "right to privacy" thing in terms of vaccines for the first time. Same thing with being forced to wear a mask in a business that requires shirt and shoes you've happily gone into a billion times now asking you to add masks to the list. Arbitrary any way you look at it for those people.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
You'd have to explain this more because vaccines as a term for employment have been around forever and aren't new. Yet, I am hearing this "right to privacy" thing in terms of vaccines for the first time. Same thing with being forced to wear a mask in a business that requires shirt and shoes you've happily gone into a billion times now asking you to add masks to the list. Arbitrary any way you look at it for those people.
About as arbitrary as allowing a religious exemption to a vaccine mandate and not a constitutional one, wouldn't you say.
-fish-
Footballguy
You asked for an update. I gave you one. Don't know why you're complaining about me here.
The Commish
Footballguy
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Example?
I am unaware of the Constitution's position on vaccines.
-fish-
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
This was my first thought, but but I'm not really sure what his point is. That's why I'm asking for an example.
Your update included no sourcing. And it was talking points. Not very compelling counselor.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I’m giving out vaccines at my house. Easy enough to hide the needles in their candy.squistion said:
-fish-
Footballguy
I thought you actually wanted to know the status of the OSHA mandate. I gave you that. I have no position on it either way. I don't know how "it will take several more weeks for OSHA to develop a rule" is a talking point.
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Then provide a source. I mean, you literally posted a quote. You have the quote but not a link to the story? What in the story don't you want us to read?
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-fish-
Footballguy
Post the story. Why do you keep ##### footing around the fact that you cherry picked a quote, assuming it's accurate and not made up, but won't link to the entire story? What don't you want us to read?
-fish-
Footballguy
I find it hard to post links from my phone. Honestly, I thought you were genuinely interested in the status of the OSHA mandate and I had read that story the day before so I gave you the answer to your question, without any argument or position. I have no idea why you're upset at that.
The Commish
Footballguy
I'm not upset. To the extent that I won't just take your word for it, that's because I've read your posts and I don't trust you. You post things as fact that are clearly opinion. See the gun thread. I would love an update on the OSHA regulations that were promised 5 weeks plus ago, but you're going to have to provide a credible source for me to consider it factual.
-fish-
Footballguy
What a surprise. The same answer. Nobody knows, but here's an opinion of an attorney familiar with OSHA rulemaking.
Sand
Footballguy
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
blame is assigned to justify everything that's going on
if blame isn't assigned, then nobody is guilty and if nobody is guilty, who can be hated for it ?
Max Power
Footballguy
Propaganda crowd programing 101. Hopefully people wake up, but some are clearly lost forever.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Vaccine mandates that allow for religious exemptions. Why does one groups deeply held beliefs create an exemption (religion) but another groups deeply held beliefs (right to privacy) do not?
As far as the Constitutions position on vaccines, you might want to start with the 4th Amendment. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons..." which is a recognition of a right to bodily integrity. The SC also upheld an individuals right to privacy although that right is not expressly enumerated in the Constitution (see, Griswold v. Connecticut or Roe v. Wade).
Stealthycat
Footballguy
https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-mother-jailed-hospital-covid-rules
70 year old lady in handcuff's
70 year old lady in handcuff's
Seems like she knew she was breaking the rules and was notified of the consequences before they were enacted. Nothing really to see here.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I hope this attitude carries forward. I look forward to the new world where we actually hold people accountable for breaking the rules.
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