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3 minutes ago, socrates said:

If you had your choice in Dynasty, I am guessing most would choose Wentz over Hurts.  However, if you had posed that same question back in December, the results may have been much different.  Is this strictly because Wentz now has a clear path to a starting gig in what projects as a better offense, or has Hurts' value taken a hit since December, despite Wentz's departure?

I think Wentz has the higher floor and Hurts the bigger upside (with of course a lower floor).  Value wise it kind of depends on what you really need.  If I had a Cousins type on the roster I would rather have Hurts because you know you have a nice baseline QB.  The upside is worth it.  If I didn't have a QB and needed a higher floor guy I would probably lean Wentz at this point. 

 

The Eagles Draft could change this drastically.

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There is similar analytics with edge players, but I think they both get to the same point for different reasons. Edge guys, there is a physical minimum you must meet to beat NFL tackles, and if you ha

Just don’t think he has the arm talent to be a reliable starter long term. 

I'd much rather have Hurts. I think they have similar probability of going belly up, but if Hurts hits then he's potentially a home run. 

16 minutes ago, Gally said:

I think Wentz has the higher floor and Hurts the bigger upside (with of course a lower floor). 

Agree and since I only play in one start QB leagues and most with smaller rosters I prefer Hurts because it's all about upside for me at that position. 

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Hurts will post good fantasy football stats while he is the starter, but until the NFL Draft has passed - his short term dynasty value could could change significantly.

Here is just one scenario:

Mock draft has Justin Fields battling with Jalen Hurts on Philadelphia Eagles

Alternatively the Eagles could choose to pass on drafting a 2021 rookie QB with early round draft capital, and could build around him as per Michael Vick’s recommendation:

Mike Vick on whether the Eagles should build around QB Jalen Hurts

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ESPN's Adam Schefter and Chris Mortensen report that the Eagles are "likely to turn to Jalen Hurts, though they also intend to bring in competition for him."

Hurts is the Eagles starting quarterback following the Carson Wentz to Indianapolis trade. For now. A 2020 second-rounder, Hurts brought life to the Eagles' offense late in the year as a rookie, mostly with his legs. The Eagles need to find more weapons on the perimeter and in the secondary, but they are in rookie quarterback striking distance with their No. 6 overall pick in the upcoming draft. It's unclear how they view Hurts, the rookie quarterbacks, and other veterans potentially available via trade. Drafting Hurts in Round 2 and then drafting his replacement one year later would be a wild turn of events, but that can't be ruled out. Currently on the QB1/2 border, Hurts would become an interesting QB1 in fantasy if the Eagles don't select a quarterback in the first round this season. He averaged 23.0 fantasy points in four starts last year.

SOURCE: ESPN.com

Feb 18, 2021, 4:07 PM ET

 

 

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1 hour ago, socrates said:

If you had your choice in Dynasty, I am guessing most would choose Wentz over Hurts.  However, if you had posed that same question back in December, the results may have been much different.  Is this strictly because Wentz now has a clear path to a starting gig in what projects as a better offense, or has Hurts' value taken a hit since December, despite Wentz's departure?

If we're talking startup draft, I would prefer Hurts simply for the upside. To me, Wentz has too many red flags for injury, attitude, and age (compared to Hurts).

If we're talking about which guy to target to add to a team, I completely agree with Gally's comment below. Though I'd love to see what kind of trade capital each requires right now. FWIW - I traded Hurts (a few days prior to the Wentz trade) for 1.13 in a 28 team, dynasty, contract league that starts 1QB. I have Watson and drafted Hurts with 2.24 53 overall. 

1 hour ago, Gally said:

I think Wentz has the higher floor and Hurts the bigger upside (with of course a lower floor).  Value wise it kind of depends on what you really need.  If I had a Cousins type on the roster I would rather have Hurts because you know you have a nice baseline QB.  The upside is worth it.  If I didn't have a QB and needed a higher floor guy I would probably lean Wentz at this point. 

 

The Eagles Draft could change this drastically.

 

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2 hours ago, socrates said:

If you had your choice in Dynasty, I am guessing most would choose Wentz over Hurts.  However, if you had posed that same question back in December, the results may have been much different.  Is this strictly because Wentz now has a clear path to a starting gig in what projects as a better offense, or has Hurts' value taken a hit since December, despite Wentz's departure?

I'd much rather have Hurts. I think they have similar probability of going belly up, but if Hurts hits then he's potentially a home run. 

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Interesting.  I actually suspected most would be on the Wentz side of this following his trade to Indy.  I have Hurts (and no Wentz) on my dynasty roster, and I agree with what seems to be the prevailing thought on this board, that Hurts, with his running ability, has the higher ceiling, but he is less secure in his role until we see how free agency and the draft shake out.  

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You take Hurts because he might be a stud. 

Whatever Wentz winds up being, it's much more likely he's Derek Carr or Kirk Cousins than Watson or Wilson or Rodgers at QB.  

I mean, it's not  impossible  that he turns into a top 5 fantasy QB, but IND will be happy if he turns into a 30 TD, 3500 yard guy.  Which is nice, but doesn't help us win fantasy titles.

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1 hour ago, socrates said:

Interesting.  I actually suspected most would be on the Wentz side of this following his trade to Indy.  I have Hurts (and no Wentz) on my dynasty roster, and I agree with what seems to be the prevailing thought on this board, that Hurts, with his running ability, has the higher ceiling, but he is less secure in his role until we see how free agency and the draft shake out.  

In same boat, picked up Hurts in two dynasty leagues off waivers as an end of the bench lottery ticket. Hoping he hits. Wonder what his value is in twelve team dynasty in both super flew and 1qb? 

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You can take this with a grain of salt but just something I heard from a trusted source who is a member of the Eagles media I know. We've talked extensively over the last few months. The Interesting thing with the whole Wentz/Hurts thing was something he pointed out. I asked after Doug was fired how likely is Wentz to stay and what is the Organization feeling about Hurts future and do you know who was it who really wanted him?

"This is the head scratching decision of them all and it just gets weirder. Carson is well liked by many in the organization including Jeffrey Lurie. Pederson and Wentz Fracture wasn't as demeaning as some others mentioned it. They still had a professional relationship and neither one has animosity towards each other do to their strong faith together. Most in the org prefer not to trade Wentz. 

Now here's the kicker. Hurts despite being drafted so early (2nd RD) he has many detractors. I would say 70%-80% don't see him as the future in Philly nor in the NFL at all. There are so many rumors of he said she said on who wanted Hurts the most I can't pinpoint one particular guy. My guess is it was Doug who wanted him and I truly believe they felt they could be smart and do the NO Offense Brees/Hill style with Wentz/Hurts. Problem is they were so bad and I think they realized too late it was a terrible move. GUN TO MY HEAD ASK ME IF HURTS OR WENTZ IS HERE BEYOND 21 SEASON? I WOULD SAY NEITHER AND IT WOULDN'T SHOCK ME TO SEE ONE HERE THIS YEAR (21) OTHER TRADED AND THE OTHER GONE AFTER NEXT YEAR."

Again take it with a grain of salt but I've heard this from 3 different people already. It doesn't seem the Eagles are set with Hurts. This is gonna be a long drawn out process. I say its a risk in dynasty either way but if those hedging bets on Hurts starting in Philly or else where play their cards right and are correct it'd be worth it. Gonna take some very patient owners IMHO here. Don't expect high value results right away. Hurts could play decent this year and the Eagles if they didn't get their guy this draft could very well in 22. 

 

 

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This debacle makes me rethink my vote on the most disfunctional franchise thread.  Drafting hurts in the 2nd last year was already a questionable move, but not going all in on him after trading Wentz just doesn't make sense in my mind.  I understand the idea of saying something like "we want to bring in a vet to push him" due to his age but knowing you have the sixth overall pick and leaving the door open that it could be used on a rookie qb has to be a detriment to his mindset, even if it's a ploy to drive up the price of the pick in order to trade it to a qb needy team closer to draft night.

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1 hour ago, wgoldsph said:

This debacle makes me rethink my vote on the most disfunctional franchise thread.  Drafting hurts in the 2nd last year was already a questionable move, but not going all in on him after trading Wentz just doesn't make sense in my mind.  I understand the idea of saying something like "we want to bring in a vet to push him" due to his age but knowing you have the sixth overall pick and leaving the door open that it could be used on a rookie qb has to be a detriment to his mindset, even if it's a ploy to drive up the price of the pick in order to trade it to a qb needy team closer to draft night.

2 wrongs don't make a right.  Why double down on a bad decision if he's not the guy?  New regime, full rebuild, let's learn from the mistake of drafting Hurts, and move past this whole thing by getting a fresh qb and fresh coach and hitting the reset button.

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5 hours ago, Deamon said:

2 wrongs don't make a right.  Why double down on a bad decision if he's not the guy?  New regime, full rebuild, let's learn from the mistake of drafting Hurts, and move past this whole thing by getting a fresh qb and fresh coach and hitting the reset button.

It’s not doubling down - they chose him in the second round of last year’s draft. If they weren’t interested in give him a real chance, what was the point of drafting him?

He was considered more of a project by most scouts so how could the Eagle’s (who obviously considered him worth a valuable pick knowing he had some work to do) judge his career based on 4 starts during his rookie season where there was limited offseason activities.

I would consider it doubling down on making bad decisions if they don’t see what he can do with a full offseason. The guy won games at two major programs - I realize that not every great college QB becomes a great NFL QB, but I’m not sure we can determine Hurts’ future after a few spot starts.

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9 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

It’s not doubling down - they chose him in the second round of last year’s draft. If they weren’t interested in give him a real chance, what was the point of drafting him?

He was considered more of a project by most scouts so how could the Eagle’s (who obviously considered him worth a valuable pick knowing he had some work to do) judge his career based on 4 starts during his rookie season where there was limited offseason activities.

I would consider it doubling down on making bad decisions if they don’t see what he can do with a full offseason. The guy won games at two major programs - I realize that not every great college QB becomes a great NFL QB, but I’m not sure we can determine Hurts’ future after a few spot starts.

Also won games in the NFL.  They need to see more.  Eagles will be picking top ten again next season.   Take your qb then if you don't like what you see this year.   Take bpa at 6 this year.  I say wr. Chase or smith

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22 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

If they weren’t interested in give him a real chance, what was the point of drafting him?

I’m not sure we can determine Hurts’ future after a few spot starts.

There was no point. 

We can. He's not a franchise NFL qb. 

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35 minutes ago, need2know said:

Also won games in the NFL.  They need to see more.  Eagles will be picking top ten again next season.   Take your qb then if you don't like what you see this year.   Take bpa at 6 this year.  I say wr. Chase or smith

I think that's what the Eagles should do. Howie seems like he likes to add QBs though. Being in striking range of the top guys might be too much for him. It won't surprise me at all if they try to move up again. 

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2 minutes ago, jtd13 said:

I think that's what the Eagles should do. Howie seems like he likes to add QBs though. Being in striking range of the top guys might be too much for him. It won't surprise me at all if they try to move up again. 

Or they draft a different wide receiver at six. One that is not as high on most peoples boards passing up both Chase and Smith... only to regret it a season later after Chase and Smith blow up and become number one wrs. 🤪

 

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27 minutes ago, Deamon said:

There was no point. 

We can. He's not a franchise NFL qb. 

It seems like you aren’t being fair. The guy deserves a shot to show what he can do. They had to bench him to make certain he wouldn’t win the last game. 

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36 minutes ago, Deamon said:

There was no point. 

We can. He's not a franchise NFL qb. 

i thought you said you werent an nfl scout?

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15 minutes ago, jtd13 said:

I think that's what the Eagles should do. Howie seems like he likes to add QBs though. Being in striking range of the top guys might be too much for him. It won't surprise me at all if they try to move up again. 

heard some rumors they are also sniffing around watson so........

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41 minutes ago, need2know said:

i thought you said you werent an nfl scout?

Well played.  But when some NFL scouts saw him as a 4th rounder, I don't see it. There's a reason every team passed on him early, he's not a great qb. 

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50 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

It seems like you aren’t being fair. The guy deserves a shot to show what he can do. They had to bench him to make certain he wouldn’t win the last game. 

Make sure he wouldn't win the game?  He was having the worst game an Eagles qb has had in maybe years. 

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5 minutes ago, Deamon said:

Well played.  But when some NFL scouts saw him as a 4th rounder, I don't see it. There's a reason every team passed on him early, he's not a great qb. 

Just messing with you.    We can agree to disagree.  I want to see more.    But yeah it's more likely he's not the answer

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26 minutes ago, Deamon said:

Well played.  But when some NFL scouts saw him as a 4th rounder, I don't see it. There's a reason every team passed on him early, he's not a great qb. 

He WAS a SECOND round pick.

Edited by Dr. Octopus
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The Eagles brass might see last year as an aberration (blame the injuries, blame Wentz, etc) and trade up for a QB. The division is weak and ripe for the taking. I think the Eagles select high in next year's draft whatever they do, but they may not see it that way. How wild would it be if the Dolphins trade back from (formerly Houston's) #3 overall to #6 to get their WR, while adding the Eagles 2022 1st that could end up top 5.

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3 hours ago, Deamon said:

Well played.  But when some NFL scouts saw him as a 4th rounder, I don't see it. There's a reason every team passed on him early, he's not a great qb. 

I don’t understand this take. Scouts are not infallible. If they were then we would be preparing to hear Ryan Leaf, David Carr, and Tim Couch’s Hall of Fame speeches soon. 

And Tom Brady and Kurt Warner would be bagging groceries after flaming out of NFL.

I am not saying Hurts will be a good QB - just saying the fact some teams thought he was not worthy of a pick does not determines someone’s future. The all pro team is littered with players not selected in the first round.

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2 hours ago, Balco said:

I don’t understand this take. Scouts are not infallible. If they were then we would be preparing to hear Ryan Leaf, David Carr, and Tim Couch’s Hall of Fame speeches soon. 

And Tom Brady and Kurt Warner would be bagging groceries after flaming out of NFL.

I am not saying Hurts will be a good QB - just saying the fact some teams thought he was not worthy of a pick does not determines someone’s future. The all pro team is littered with players not selected in the first round.

Correct yes. I don't see Hurts as a future starting qb. His mechanics are bad. He looked bad in limited action. It's not often you get a top 6 pick, take a potential franchise qb

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Just now, Blackbear said:

So he thought the third qb would win the game?

He pulled a qb who was playing absolutely atrociously. 

He played every other healthy starter from start to finish, why do this if you're trying to lose? 

It was a meaningless game and he told Nate (and the rest of the team), that he would be playing him in the game no matter what the score. 

Not to rehash this all over again, but your "he pulled him so they'd lose" argument is inaccurate and click-bait driven. 

Hurts is not a good QB. 

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5 minutes ago, Deamon said:

He pulled a qb who was playing absolutely atrociously. 

He played every other healthy starter from start to finish, why do this if you're trying to lose? 

It was a meaningless game and he told Nate (and the rest of the team), that he would be playing him in the game no matter what the score. 

Not to rehash this all over again, but your "he pulled him so they'd lose" argument is inaccurate and click-bait driven. 

Hurts is not a good QB. 

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/philadelphia-eagles-jalen-hurts-carson-wentz-20201213.html

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The Eagles played the guys making the most money granted by the GM. It explains why Fulgham was benched when Jeffery came back. It explains why Wentz was given so much rope. It explains why they benched Hurts when they did. It explains why Pederson said he’s sick of being told what to do. 

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14 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

Follow the team a bit more before commenting irrelevant bad sources.  None of that has anything to do with Hurts being benched in a meaningless game when it was already understood he would be at some point.  If the game stayed at 1pm it would be a non issue.

Anyways, going in circles here.  You believe Hurts is a good QB... I don't.  Time will tell. 

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1 minute ago, Deamon said:

Follow the team a bit more before commenting irrelevant bad sources.  None of that has anything to do with Hurts being benched in a meaningless game when it was already understood he would be at some point.  If the game stayed at 1pm it would be a non issue.

Anyways, going in circles here.  You believe Hurts is a good QB... I don't.  Time will tell. 

I’m saying you didn’t... and don’t give him a fair shake. He deserves a shot, is my stance. You believe he sucks. Time will tell. 

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1 minute ago, Blackbear said:

I’m saying you didn’t... and don’t give him a fair shake. He deserves a shot, is my stance. You believe he sucks. Time will tell. 

Him deserving a shot is circumstantial.  If you have a shot to draft a franchise qb, you don't pass on it and 'wait for next year'.  If Fields or Wilson drop to 6, I'd be okay with taking them as your future and saying "sorry Jalen, this guy looks like the much better prospect for our future and you had a shot and didn't look great".

If neither of them drop, then sure I'm happy to take BPA and give Hurts the reigns next year and see what happens, but based on his mechanics and what he showed from the eye test, he's a poor man's Lamar and I don't see him being a cornerstone to build a franchise around.

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I see your stance is starting to soften. The point is we have no idea if Jackson can get a Super Bowl win. And being a poor mans Jackson, as you put it, while insinuate is awful means nothing. Jackson won an MVP. So by this logic most QBs in this league sucks. 
 

He’s had three real games and has done as good as he could. Are you so pompous that you right someone off without giving them a chance. 

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18 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

I see your stance is starting to soften. The point is we have no idea if Jackson can get a Super Bowl win. And being a poor mans Jackson, as you put it, while insinuate is awful means nothing. Jackson won an MVP. So by this logic most QBs in this league sucks. 
 

He’s had three real games and has done as good as he could. Are you so pompous that you right someone off without giving them a chance. 

Not softening.  I don't think Hurts is a franchise QB at all.  But I also don't want to reach for Lance... no way we bring another Dakota QB in.

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20 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

 And being a poor mans Jackson, as you put it, while insinuate is awful means nothing. Jackson won an MVP. So by this logic most QBs in this league sucks. 
 

note "poor mans".  Maybe I should have said "Homeless man's"

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10 minutes ago, Deamon said:

note "poor mans".  Maybe I should have said "Homeless man's"

My point was, and is, he deserves a shot. And after watching the Eagles they just suck at drafting weapons lately. But you know the team better than I do. But I think, just a hunch, you got an all star in Hurts. 

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1 minute ago, Blackbear said:

My point was, and is, he deserves a shot. And after watching the Eagles they just suck at drafting weapons lately. But you know the team better than I do. But I think, just a hunch, you got an all star in Hurts. 

We do suck at drafting weapons lately for sure. If hurts ever makes a pro bowl I'll eat my words but I would be absolutely blown away. I don't think Hurts is terrible, but am confident he won't be "great". I'd rather take a shot on a potential franchise guy than a guy who doesn't have the passing talent to be a successful starter in the league long term. Anyways we'll see. 

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1 minute ago, Deamon said:

We do suck at drafting weapons lately for sure. If hurts ever makes a pro bowl I'll eat my words but I would be absolutely blown away. I don't think Hurts is terrible, but am confident he won't be "great". I'd rather take a shot on a potential franchise guy than a guy who doesn't have the passing talent to be a successful starter in the league long term. Anyways we'll see. 

Ok. But to play devils advocate... I believe the reason Eagles won was due to a solid oline and a stout defense. If you, for sake of hyperbole, trade down and get a solid Oline guy and a legitimate WR. Your offense is now in business. 

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How good will this team be at not just acquiring but developing young quarterbacks, whether Hurts or a 2021 pick?  Sirianni has typically worked with veteran QBs instead of developing younger ones (Rivers, Luck), which would lead me to believe they may bring in a vet rather than go with Hurts or risk a high pick on an undeveloped QB.

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38 minutes ago, Keith R said:

How good will this team be at not just acquiring but developing young quarterbacks, whether Hurts or a 2021 pick?  Sirianni has typically worked with veteran QBs instead of developing younger ones (Rivers, Luck), which would lead me to believe they may bring in a vet rather than go with Hurts or risk a high pick on an undeveloped QB.

We are talking about on QB and not a team. 

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