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Has the cure become worse than the disease?


Has the cure become worse than the disease?  

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13 hours ago, Doug B said:

Why does anyone think the so-called "lockdown" was so harsh? I never saw MPs in the street. No National Guardsman road-blocked my car to check if I had gotten groceries in the last 7 days. No cops were checking IDs at drugstores. What are people talking about when they say "total lockdown"?

I mean, "total", to me, would mean complete lack of freedom of movement. No leaving the house. No open spaces. Nothing.

You can;t be serious with this can you?

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No.  It isn't. I'm not really on this board anymore and don't have any intention of getting into a back and forth argument.  But the cure - saving lives by ceasing non-essential economic activity

Before we argue about mandatory testing, can we at least have voluntary testing?  As in, anyone who wants a test can get a test (as was promised weeks or months ago).  Can we at least get to that

Why don't you people share the same sympathy for people working two minimum wage jobs with no benefits pre covid that you have for small business owners now?  You guys type a lot of words, but all I h

3 hours ago, supermike80 said:
16 hours ago, Doug B said:

Why does anyone think the so-called "lockdown" was so harsh? I never saw MPs in the street. No National Guardsman road-blocked my car to check if I had gotten groceries in the last 7 days. No cops were checking IDs at drugstores. What are people talking about when they say "total lockdown"?

I mean, "total", to me, would mean complete lack of freedom of movement. No leaving the house. No open spaces. Nothing.

You can;t be serious with this can you?

I am serious. "Total" means "total". Movement restriction never happened as in, for example, Wuhan.

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3 hours ago, supermike80 said:
16 hours ago, Doug B said:

Why does anyone think the so-called "lockdown" was so harsh? I never saw MPs in the street. No National Guardsman road-blocked my car to check if I had gotten groceries in the last 7 days. No cops were checking IDs at drugstores. What are people talking about when they say "total lockdown"?

I mean, "total", to me, would mean complete lack of freedom of movement. No leaving the house. No open spaces. Nothing.

You can;t be serious with this can you?

I only have knowledge from TV and articles but what he was describing seems consistent with how some of the China and European lock downs were enforced.   I recall seeing someone arrested for reportedly taking a walk in Madrid.  I'm sure there was a bit more to it than that in that case but at least how these lock downs were reported what happened around here was quite different.

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8 minutes ago, Challenge Everything said:

We are to the point where the word "total" has to be defined? That is for-profit-education for you.

Or, we are at the point where every comment made by every person is analyzed as if it's an official statement being made in a legal document or in court under oath. People, in every day life, don't always speak in literal terms. If someone says "total lockdown" in some kind of official capacity, like a politician, then I'd agree they need to be much more careful with their language and not play games. But, when a friend of mine says "total lockdown", I don't assume they literally mean a total lockdown. It may indicate that they think restrictions are worse than I think they are, but I'm not going to argue with them about the definition of "total".

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1 hour ago, Doug B said:

I am serious. "Total" means "total". Movement restriction never happened as in, for example, Wuhan.

Why do you guys do this.  Why?  Are you going to next post a link to the Webster's Dictionary of the word "lockdown"

25% Of Americans are out of work and you wanna sit here and debate the word lockdown.

Man...Just completely out of touch. 

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1 minute ago, supermike80 said:
1 hour ago, Doug B said:

I am serious. "Total" means "total". Movement restriction never happened as in, for example, Wuhan.

Why do you guys do this.  Why?  Are you going to next post a link to the Webster's Dictionary of the word "lockdown"

25% Of Americans are out of work and you wanna sit here and debate the word lockdown.

Man...Just completely out of touch. 

QED

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On 5/26/2020 at 11:40 AM, The Commish said:

It continues to amaze me at how little people pay attention to things going on elsewhere to then take those actions and compare them to what they are experiencing.  One thing I've learned about us as a country is just how lacking in self awareness we are as a country.  I've joked about it before in anecdotal conversations here when it's clearly the case, but I am somewhat taken back by how true it is across this nation.  

I feel like that's been our reputation on the world stage for decades.  One might say you've been lacking self awareness to only be realizing this now.  

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44 minutes ago, Punxsutawney Phil said:

In FL the cure has been worse for sure thanks to the unemployment system.  People have been without paychecks for 2-3 months.  I've read in the paper evictions will start soon. 

I believe today was the final day for the no eviction/no foreclosure proceedings could happen. So, landlords and others may have gone these past couple of months without payment... now it's time to pay up or get out. Early on, our government should have done what other countries did and forego or suspend any payments. People wouldn't have had to worry about money, jobs, going out to work, for fear of future eviction. The capitalist hands are coming for their money now... they don't want excuses, they want their money.

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11 hours ago, cockroach said:
On 5/26/2020 at 2:40 PM, The Commish said:

It continues to amaze me at how little people pay attention to things going on elsewhere to then take those actions and compare them to what they are experiencing.  One thing I've learned about us as a country is just how lacking in self awareness we are as a country.  I've joked about it before in anecdotal conversations here when it's clearly the case, but I am somewhat taken back by how true it is across this nation.  

I feel like that's been our reputation on the world stage for decades.  One might say you've been lacking self awareness to only be realizing this now.  

I didn't just recently learn this.  It was in my early 20s...during the Bush years while I was traveling.  Our reputation on the world stage has been an issue for at least that long, no question.  What I was attempting to speak too above was how we've validated all those notions by the actions we've taken at the voting box.  All those stereotypes we've been able to shrug off as "not everyone is that way" or "I think you misunderstand us" we can no longer.

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That and 90% of Americans are reactive instead of proactive.

Very little look or plan ahead.  I'm not saying not to live your life but a lot of people wait for things to fall apart(especially politicians) before decisions need to be made and then rushed instead thinking ahead

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7 hours ago, The Commish said:

I didn't just recently learn this.  It was in my early 20s...during the Bush years while I was traveling.  Our reputation on the world stage has been an issue for at least that long, no question.  What I was attempting to speak too above was how we've validated all those notions by the actions we've taken at the voting box.  All those stereotypes we've been able to shrug off as "not everyone is that way" or "I think you misunderstand us" we can no longer.

At least that long, for sure.  I'm pretty sure it goes decades before that too.  The 60s and 70s were a mess and then we hired a B level Hollywood star and CIA director to clean it up.   The extent of my exposure to what other countries thought of us then was pretty much limited to National Lampoon's European Vacation, but it doesn't seem like much has changed.  

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On 5/24/2020 at 10:54 AM, Max Power said:

Suicides are on the rise. A northern California hospital claimed to have seen a years worth of suicide attempts in the last 4 weeks. :(

52/4 = 13. They've seen 13 times the number of attempted suicides? Considering our nationwide shortage of inpatient psych beds, I'm wondering why we aren't seeing articles about overflowing wards?

Would you mind providing a source for your statement?

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On 5/25/2020 at 6:13 PM, SoBeDad said:

Here's one in Miami that furloughed or laid off almost 1,000 employees, about 20% of it's workforce, including physician practices: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/florida-s-mount-sinai-medical-center-cuts-nearly-1-000.html

Mass General Brigham is not doing too well either: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/mass-general-brigham-posts-1-6b-loss-in-q2.html

Some of the reductions in hospital procedures could be long-term. I'm thinking office visits, imaging and ortho. 

Why ortho?

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On 5/26/2020 at 1:20 AM, timschochet said:

I heard a doctor on the news claim that even though the fatality rate is low for most people, if you get this virus you have around a 20% chance of having permanent kidney damage. Anybody know how accurate this is? 

Kidney damage is common among hospitalized patients, but I've not seen anything suggesting long term kidney damage is so prevalent. At this point, there is really no way to know (too early to be commenting on sequelae among COVID survivors), but I'd be much more concerned about the lungs and heart.

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8 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

Why ortho?

I'm thinking older patients will delay decisions on hip and knee replacements. My ex-MIL delayed her knee replacement for about 5 years before the pandemic was an issue, as did my older brother. Maybe I'm wrong.

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31 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:
On 5/24/2020 at 4:54 PM, Max Power said:

Suicides are on the rise. A northern California hospital claimed to have seen a years worth of suicide attempts in the last 4 weeks. :(

52/4 = 13. They've seen 13 times the number of attempted suicides? Considering our nationwide shortage of inpatient psych beds, I'm wondering why we aren't seeing articles about overflowing wards?

Would you mind providing a source for your statement?

Here's a source: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/a-years-worth-of-suicide-attempts-in-the-last-four-weeks-california-doctor-calls-for-end-to-lockdown/

It is, of course, not true. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/doctor-california-coronavirus-suicide-lockdown

But in an interview with BuzzFeed News, deBoisblanc said his comment about the hospital seeing "a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks" was inaccurate. He added that at the time he didn't know what the true numbers were. Many of his other comments, which compared the number of deaths from COVID-19 to suicides, "were taken a bit out of context," he said.

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On 5/26/2020 at 3:33 AM, msommer said:

The only reason I can think of to make sense of their numbers not fitting the largest outbreak would be if the hospitals were overwhelmed, but AFAIK all are in agreement that this did not happen in NYC

From what I've seen, I don't agree. While NYC never got to the point of Lombardy, providers were still overworked and exhausted. We know people from all walks of life make mistakes when they are tired, including healthcare workers.

And PPE was in short supply, so transmission was more likely, both to healthcare providers and the (vulnerable) patients they cared for.

Lastly, I wouldn't be surprised if the threshold for futility was lowered in the face of throngs infected with C-19, so standards of care may have been compromised by the crisis.

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On 5/26/2020 at 4:48 AM, Drunken Cowboy said:

A radiologist has no expertise that makes this opinion of any value.

They certainly are entitled to their opinion, but I'd trust the docs who actually care for these patients during hospitalization: infectious disease, intensivists, hospitalists and ER physicians, in order of descending credibility. 

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54 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:
On 5/24/2020 at 3:54 PM, Max Power said:

Suicides are on the rise. A northern California hospital claimed to have seen a years worth of suicide attempts in the last 4 weeks. :(

52/4 = 13. They've seen 13 times the number of attempted suicides? Considering our nationwide shortage of inpatient psych beds, I'm wondering why we aren't seeing articles about overflowing wards?

Would you mind providing a source for your statement?


The information Max posted was later debunked by the originally quoted doctor himself:

Quote

But in an interview with BuzzFeed News, [Dr. Mike] deBoisblanc said his comment about the hospital seeing "a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks" was inaccurate. He added that at the time he didn't know what the true numbers were. Many of his other comments, which compared the number of deaths from COVID-19 to suicides, "were taken a bit out of context," he said.


Per usual. This kind of stuff seems to always be wrong when reconciled later. Every time.

 

EDIT: Heh -- I shoulda read down a few posts. Good on ya, Rich Conway. Well, it was worth being posted twice anyway. I'm sure the "northern California suicides" blurb will be posted again in a few pages anyway.

Edited by Doug B
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On 5/27/2020 at 11:27 AM, dgreen said:

Or, we are at the point where every comment made by every person is analyzed as if it's an official statement being made in a legal document or in court under oath. People, in every day life, don't always speak in literal terms. If someone says "total lockdown" in some kind of official capacity, like a politician, then I'd agree they need to be much more careful with their language and not play games. But, when a friend of mine says "total lockdown", I don't assume they literally mean a total lockdown. It may indicate that they think restrictions are worse than I think they are, but I'm not going to argue with them about the definition of "total".

It’s hard to take an article seriously or carry any authoritative weight then when we already know the author is prone to exaggeration. If I’m going to read something with the expectation that it’s going to inform my outlook, I’d rather not waste my time reading exaggerations on par with just chatting with my friends. I don’t necessarily care if someone has an agenda, but I do care if they’re not making an honest attempt of being accurate.

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29 minutes ago, SoBeDad said:

I'm thinking older patients will delay decisions on hip and knee replacements. My ex-MIL delayed her knee replacement for about 5 years before the pandemic was an issue, as did my older brother. Maybe I'm wrong.

Probably a reasonable assumption. Fortunately, orthopedists are among the highest paid sub specialists, so they should be able to weather a downturn in business.

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9 minutes ago, Doug B said:


The information Max posted was later debunked by the originally quoted doctor himself:


Per usual. This kind of stuff seems to always be wrong when reconciled later. Every time.

 

EDIT: Heh -- I shoulda read down a few posts. Good on ya, Rich Conway. Well, it was worth being posted twice anyway. I'm sure the "northern California suicides" blurb will be posted again in a few pages anyway.

Yeah, I should've read to the end of the thread.

But even when debunked, the damage from these nonsense stories is already done. Look no further than the anti-vaxxer movement.

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Thanks all for the update on the California story.

ABC's mid day talk show had a mental health expert on yesterday who referenced that same story and also claimed mental health issues are on the rise and something we need to keep an eye on over the next year or two. 

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2 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

And what it always should have spurred on was how we should be improving mental health care (as well as overall health care) in this country.  Instead, we will prop up corporations instead.

We absolutely screw over people in this country...vulnerable people.  Lets start first with our veterans who face so much when they come back.  That the suicide rate is as high as it is among veterans is a complete failure by this country.   Then...what else can improve by better mental health (hell, it even lends itself into gun debates).  But nope...can't talk about any of that now...even mentioning health care and we get the "don't politicize the tragedy and death"...that will be the call against this.

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23 hours ago, Max Power said:

Thanks all for the update on the California story.

ABC's mid day talk show had a mental health expert on yesterday who referenced that same story and also claimed mental health issues are on the rise and something we need to keep an eye on over the next year or two. 

Well they are on the rise.  They have been for most of the 2000s and it's something we need to take action on.  "Keeping an eye" on time was during the 90s.  Now's the time to act.  That's why there's been such a push to get mental health services into the health bills.  :mellow: 

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4 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

Careful. You'll be called a fatalist soon.

You need to add some sunshine and puppies to your posts and post less about reality. 

While I do enjoy a good day outdoors, and cute animals are always a welcome sight, there's a time and place for those. Dealing with a pandemic where the federal response has been nothing short of a disaster, and states have apparently opened back up too soon because at least some people apparently got tired of sitting at home(I know others have to work, relax) is not either of those things.

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2 minutes ago, Kal El said:

While I do enjoy a good day outdoors, and cute animals are always a welcome sight, there's a time and place for those. Dealing with a pandemic where the federal response has been nothing short of a disaster, and states have apparently opened back up too soon because at least some people apparently got tired of sitting at home(I know others have to work, relax) is not either of those things.

We're on the same page. I'm just saying you'll be getting the same heat I've been getting here soon... if you haven't already. Some people are so desperate to a return to normal that they attack those posting reality. 

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11 minutes ago, Politician Spock said:

We're on the same page. I'm just saying you'll be getting the same heat I've been getting here soon... if you haven't already. Some people are so desperate to a return to normal that they attack those posting reality. 

I have seen it. It seems to be either using the label "fear mongering," or with offers that I can stay cowering in my home. Correcting them with the fact that I'm an essential worker as an electrician, and that I've been working at a hospital that has Covid patients in it doesn't seem to matter.

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1 hour ago, Politician Spock said:

We're on the same page. I'm just saying you'll be getting the same heat I've been getting here soon... if you haven't already. Some people are so desperate to a return to normal that they attack those posting reality. 

:lmao: but you celebrate the protests

 

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31 minutes ago, tjnc09 said:

:lmao: but you celebrate the protests

 

Our nation was founded in large part by protests. The Boston Tea Party wasn't a bunch of guys sitting around drinking Earl Grey.

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On 5/30/2020 at 8:46 AM, Kal El said:

Our nation was founded in large part by protests. The Boston Tea Party wasn't a bunch of guys sitting around drinking Earl Grey.

I’m glad to know they all survived the great Shanghai Virus of 1773.

 

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1 hour ago, tjnc09 said:

I’m glad to know they all survived the great Shanghai Virus of 1773.

 

A more appropriate pathogen to consider would be smallpox. 

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On 5/30/2020 at 10:46 AM, Kal El said:

Our nation was founded in large part by protests. The Boston Tea Party wasn't a bunch of guys sitting around drinking Earl Grey.

did they burn their own neighborhoods, kill their own people, do damage to their own towns ?? tell me more about this riots/looting that was the Boston Tea Party

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4 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:
On 5/30/2020 at 8:46 AM, Kal El said:

Our nation was founded in large part by protests. The Boston Tea Party wasn't a bunch of guys sitting around drinking Earl Grey.

did they burn their own neighborhoods, kill their own people, do damage to their own towns ??

You're not serious, are you?

Because the answer is "yes" to all 3 questions.

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I can't believe you guys are actually having to go all the way back to the BOSTON TEA PARTY to find a correlation with the current absurdities that are taking place right now.
That SHOULD (although I know it wont) give you a little indication of how ineffective and wrong it is to protest in the manner that is taking place today.

Dying to know what news channel made this relationship that you are all quoting now.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I can't believe you guys are actually having to go all the way back to the BOSTON TEA PARTY to find a correlation with the current absurdities that are taking place right now.
That SHOULD (although I know it wont) give you a little indication of how ineffective and wrong it is to protest in the manner that is taking place today.

Dying to know what news channel made this relationship that you are all quoting now.

It's weird that you assume that people would need a news channel to tell them about history.

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22 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

You're not serious, are you?

Because the answer is "yes" to all 3 questions.

It's like people forget the Revolutionary War was a thing because a group of people felt oppressed by those in power, protested, and eventually the protests stopped working.

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