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Vietnam + 9/11 + Afghanistan + Iraq


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The pandemic has now officially killed more Americans in about two months than those four events did over multiple decades. And that is almost certainly an undercount for the virus.

Vietnam: 58,209

9/11: 2,996

Afghanistan: 2,216

Iraq: 4,576

Total: 67,997

Covid-19 Pandemic: 68,843

 

The incompetence that we are witnessing in terms of the Federal response to this crisis is really jaw-dropping.

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drop in the bucket. the day in late Feb when i realized this was real enough to order gloves/masks, i watched an epidemiologist predict 40% of the world would contract Covfefe19 and 2% of those would die. quick math - 60 million fatalities. not even getting worked up til we're @ 10mil and my full expectation for this thing to get me (old, fat, pneumonia-prone from 40 yrs of smoking) and my ancient peeps have not been reduced since that day

dead-horse beating time: 40,000 people (1/3 children) die each day around the world from the simple inability to sustain physical life. the numbers on these things will always be an abstraction to me and the contagion doesnt change my interest in keeping my corner of the world as well as possible and giving what i can to making the world a safer & better place

Edited by wikkidpissah
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2 hours ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

The pandemic has now officially killed more Americans in about two months than those four events did over multiple decades. And that is almost certainly an undercount for the virus.

Vietnam: 58,209

9/11: 2,996

Afghanistan: 2,216

Iraq: 4,576

Total: 67,997

Covid-19 Pandemic: 68,843

 

The incompetence that we are witnessing in terms of the Federal response to this crisis is really jaw-dropping.

Is there a bigger policy failure in the last century?  The Great Depression?

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3 hours ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

The incompetence that we are witnessing in terms of the Federal response to this crisis is really jaw-dropping.

No incompetence whatsoever in a progressive Democrat re-opening Colorado prior to federally recommended 14 days' drop in COVID-19 cases.

Jaw-dropping.

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57 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

No incompetence whatsoever in a progressive Democrat re-opening Colorado prior to federally recommended 14 days' drop in COVID-19 cases.

Jaw-dropping.

Thanks for the literal whataboutism. We have to make sure every discussion always contains that.

I made no comment about individual state level responses. Some of  them have been very responsible and some have not. I could call out examples of Governors who are examples of each from both parties.

That does not in any way modify the fact the Federal response, as managed by the Executive Branch, has been a total train wreck. 

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1 minute ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Thanks for the literal whataboutism. We have to make sure every discussion always contains that.

I made no comment about individual state level responses. Some of  them have been very responsible and some have not. I could call out examples of Governors who are examples of each from both parties.

That does not in any way modify the fact the Federal response, as managed by the Executive Branch, has been a total train wreck. 

Not really, but you're allowed to have your opinion.

You would have found any reason to complain about Trump.

Edited by BladeRunner
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I was hoping somebody would start another thread coming up with some lazy and absolutely ridiculous way to blame Trump for something.

The other day the mailman delivered my mail to the neighbor.  Trump's fault?  I think we should start a thread about it and compare wrong mail deliveries to Trump's time in the White House.  I bet there's a correlation.

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, ShamrockPride said:

Wars vs a pandemic, they're not even mildly comparable. You're talking something man-made vs biological. There's not a single area of overlap that could be compared.

It was a post primarily about scale. In a month or two I'll totally agree with you though, because the scales won't be remotely comparable.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Thanks for the literal whataboutism. We have to make sure every discussion always contains that.

I made no comment about individual state level responses. Some of  them have been very responsible and some have not. I could call out examples of Governors who are examples of each from both parties.

That does not in any way modify the fact the Federal response, as managed by the Executive Branch, has been a total train wreck. 

Ridiculous. Your OP weakly attempted to make a direct connection between the number of deaths and put them 100% on Trump.

So why didn't you make comments about individual, state and local level responses in the original post? Most certainly not because it destroys your entire argument. Nah. Why complicate things.

Blaming Trump for the pandemic's tragic consequences is far easier. And most definitely more likely to be met with a positive response in this forum.

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Just now, PhantomJB said:

Ridiculous. Your OP weakly attempted to make a direct connection between the number of deaths and put them 100% on Trump.

So why didn't you make comments about individual, state and local level responses in the original post? Most certainly not because it destroys your entire argument. Nah. Why complicate things.

Blaming Trump for the pandemic's tragic consequences is far easier. And most definitely more likely to be met with a positive response in this forum.

Well, he is...<checks notes> the head of the Executive Branch.

What falls under that branch? Umm...the CDC. Also, the FDA. Huh. What about FEMA? Yeah, that too. Homeland Security? Uh...YES. What about the National Security Council? Oh, yeah, that too.

You're right, he had no tools at his disposal, at all.

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9 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

It was a post primarily about scale. In a month or two I'll totally agree with you though, because the scales won't be remotely comparable.

I would say ONLY about scale, without much of a thought to anything else.

- In 2020, an estimated 606,520 people will die of cancer in the United States.

We've lost in two months 10% of projected American Cancer deaths this year

- Also: From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States.

We've already lost 20x as many to covid than in that decade due to drowning!

Both of these statements are just as relevant as your OP. Not entirely sure what they have to do with anything other than a number, but just as relevant.

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3 minutes ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Well, he is...<checks notes> the head of the Executive Branch.

What falls under that branch? Umm...the CDC. Also, the FDA. Huh. What about FEMA? Yeah, that too. Homeland Security? Uh...YES. What about the National Security Council? Oh, yeah, that too.

You're right, he had no tools at his disposal, at all.

Now you're just all over the place.

Who has the most influence over whether an individual stays at home, practices social distancing and/or wears a mask in public...the combination of a city's mayor and a state's governor...or the Executive Branch?

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4 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Now you're just all over the place.

Who has the most influence over whether an individual stays at home, practices social distancing and/or wears a mask in public...the combination of a city's mayor and a state's governor...or the Executive Branch?

Ordinarily, I might be inclined to suggest local leaders would have more influence, but when the President spends weeks or even months denying that a looming crisis is worth worrying about and the Conservative media apparatus jumps on that theme and amplifies it constantly, it seems like a pretty big deal.

And that is just the messaging failure. 

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34 minutes ago, ShamrockPride said:

This is based on what? Something he said? I don't this stuff obsessively like most here.

One Example:

“I do, I actually do, I'm looking at it that way,” Trump told reporters during a press briefing at the White House when asked whether he considered the U.S. to be on a wartime footing. “I look at it, I view it as, in a sense, a wartime president. I mean, that's what we're fighting.“

Edited by Bottomfeeder Sports
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33 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

So why didn't you make comments about individual, state and local level responses in the original post? Most certainly not because it destroys your entire argument. Nah. Why complicate things.

None of the state and local governments have the informational resources of the executive branch.  Both those that still existed in the late fall and those that should have existed if not for the shortsighted attacks on government by this administration.  

Yes New York failed to respond promptly enough.  Same is true for other state and local government.  A good chunk of this is because the messaging from those gathering this information was at best, giving the administration the benefit of all doubts the messaging was confused.   Problem is that it is still confused.  State governments are going to open too soon because of this mixed messaging.  Others will probably be too late.   

Not saying that states are without faults and those faults haven't compounded the death totals among other negative consequences. But they have been operating in the same void that the rest of us are stuck in.  A void created by a complete lack of leadership at the top.  A void of "we are in for a hellish of a two weeks" one second and "why is so and so keeping things locked down" the next.

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56 minutes ago, ShamrockPride said:

I would say ONLY about scale, without much of a thought to anything else.

- In 2020, an estimated 606,520 people will die of cancer in the United States.

We've lost in two months 10% of projected American Cancer deaths this year

- Also: From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States.

We've already lost 20x as many to covid than in that decade due to drowning!

Both of these statements are just as relevant as your OP. Not entirely sure what they have to do with anything other than a number, but just as relevant.

I said this in another thread but I think there’s relevance as to what our national priorities should be and how the government should spend its resources.   

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3 minutes ago, Bottomfeeder Sports said:

None of the state and local governments have the informational resources of the executive branch.  Both those that still existed in the late fall and those that should have existed if not for the shortsighted attacks on government by this administration.  

Yes New York failed to respond promptly enough.  Same is true for other state and local government.  A good chunk of this is because the messaging from those gathering this information was at best, giving the administration the benefit of all doubts the messaging was confused.   Problem is that it is still confused.  State governments are going to open too soon because of this mixed messaging.  Others will probably be too late.   

Not saying that states are without faults and those faults haven't compounded the death totals among other negative consequences. But they have been operating in the same void that the rest of us are stuck in.  A void created by a complete lack of leadership at the top.  A void of "we are in for a hellish of a two weeks" one second and "why is so and so keeping things locked down" the next.

Most objective observers would give the President a below average (or less) grade for leadership on pandemic response. It is what it is.

But Americans are going to act in what they believe is their own self-interest regardless of "leadership." At the federal, state, or local level. Most of that is heroically moving us forward but there are also millions of knuckleheads setting us backwards.

Disproportionally and obsessively blaming Trump for his role in pandemic deaths is counterproductive, at best, is my overarching point. Personally, I'm a heckuva lot more PO'd at the dozens who refuse to wear masks every time I go to the grocery store.

 

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3 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Most objective observers would give the President a below average (or less) grade for leadership on pandemic response. It is what it is.

But Americans are going to act in what they believe is their own self-interest regardless of "leadership." At the federal, state, or local level. Most of that is heroically moving us forward but there are also millions of knuckleheads setting us backwards.

Disproportionally and obsessively blaming Trump for his role in pandemic deaths is counterproductive, at best, is my overarching point. Personally, I'm a heckuva lot more PO'd at the dozens who refuse to wear masks every time I go to the grocery store.

 

"Disproportionally" is an interesting qualifier here.

I agree totally that Trump isn't solely to blame for the situation here. But that doesn't mean we should ignore his colossal failures either.

And you can simultaneously hold him responsible for his clear failings and be "PO'd" at other people too. You don't have to choose. 

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32 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Disproportionally and obsessively blaming Trump for his role in pandemic deaths is counterproductive, at best, is my overarching point. Personally, I'm a heckuva lot more PO'd at the dozens who refuse to wear masks every time I go to the grocery store.

I think you can draw a straight line from Trump/FoxNews/Rush to those folks who aren't wearing masks at the grocery store. They've been telling the country that this thing is an overblown hoax for months now. It's not surprising that some people believe them and act accordingly.     

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2 hours ago, PhantomJB said:

Ridiculous. Your OP weakly attempted to make a direct connection between the number of deaths and put them 100% on Trump.

So why didn't you make comments about individual, state and local level responses in the original post? Most certainly not because it destroys your entire argument. Nah. Why complicate things.

Blaming Trump for the pandemic's tragic consequences is far easier. And most definitely more likely to be met with a positive response in this forum.

"The buck stops here."  That use to mean something to the leader of America. 

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2 minutes ago, Mile High said:

"The buck stops here."  That use to mean something to the leader of America. 

That has been replaced by "I take no responsibility at all."

Which ought to be really upsetting to the self-proclaimed "Party of Personal Responsibility". But it's not, because that was always BS.

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This administration could not care less about total death count. We’re witnessing a truly historical level of terrible leadership. By November I’ll be a Florida resident, pretty excited for my vote to actually count this year. 

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5 hours ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Well, he is...<checks notes> the head of the Executive Branch.

What falls under that branch? Umm...the CDC. Also, the FDA. Huh. What about FEMA? Yeah, that too. Homeland Security? Uh...YES. What about the National Security Council? Oh, yeah, that too.

You're right, he had no tools at his disposal, at all.

This is snark.....which isn’t allowed here. 

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Couldn’t you make a similar argument about heart disease and cancer deaths though?  I don’t remember hearing people speak in terms like this for heart failure and car crashes.  

Seems a bit tone deaf to invoke the death toll of Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. without acknowledging the millions that were killed as a result of those wars. The Iraq war alone resulted in the deaths of over a million Iraqis according to a British survey.  That’s like three hundred 9/11s, or 14 covid19 pandemics.  They should be remembered for all the people they killed, not just Americans.  

Those wars were a choice that this country made.  Trump didn’t choose for a pandemic to happen- although I agree their response has been atrocious.  

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1 hour ago, ren hoek said:

Couldn’t you make a similar argument about heart disease and cancer deaths though?  I don’t remember hearing people speak in terms like this for heart failure and car crashes.  

That’s what I was getting at in my post. You can cherry pick whatever random stat you want. OP is literally just comparing 2 numbers from randomly pulled statistics. There is no argument he’s even making.

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1 hour ago, ShamrockPride said:

That’s what I was getting at in my post. You can cherry pick whatever random stat you want. OP is literally just comparing 2 numbers from randomly pulled statistics. There is no argument he’s even making.

I agree with you. I don’t think we should be making this sort of comparison. 

And Donald Trump is not responsible for the coronavirus. He didn’t cause it to happen, and although he made plenty of mistakes during the the first 3 months, I’m frankly skeptical that it would have made that much of a difference to the outcome. The real problem, IMO, it’s that we’re just not South Korea: we’re not disciplined. We’re unruly. Even if Trump had listened to the experts fully, even if he had never gotten rid of the pandemics office, I think we’d still have found ourselves in roughly the same situation, with roughly the same number of deaths. We weren’t mentally prepared for this. 

That being said, Trump hasn’t helped for the most part. And at this point he really is making things worse IMO with his refusal to take federal control on testing and tracing, and his pushing states to open before they’re ready. He appears to care only about his electoral chances and that’s a damning charge if true. 

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13 hours ago, ren hoek said:

Seems a bit tone deaf to invoke the death toll of Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. without acknowledging the millions that were killed as a result of those wars. The Iraq war alone resulted in the deaths of over a million Iraqis according to a British survey.  That’s like three hundred 9/11s, or 14 covid19 pandemics.  They should be remembered for all the people they killed, not just Americans.  

Those wars were a choice that this country made.  Trump didn’t choose for a pandemic to happen- although I agree their response has been atrocious.  

I did specify American deaths, but yes, Iraq, Vietnam, and Afghanistan were much bigger disasters for the civilian populations of those countries than they were for us. Despite being pretty big disasters for us.

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12 hours ago, ShamrockPride said:

That’s what I was getting at in my post. You can cherry pick whatever random stat you want. OP is literally just comparing 2 numbers from randomly pulled statistics. There is no argument he’s even making.

They are all examples of policy failures that cost significant American lives. A couple of the wars were considered major policy disasters because of their cost in lives (and dollars), but they took over a decade to get to that total. This took a few months.

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10 hours ago, timschochet said:

I agree with you. I don’t think we should be making this sort of comparison. 

And Donald Trump is not responsible for the coronavirus. He didn’t cause it to happen, and although he made plenty of mistakes during the the first 3 months, I’m frankly skeptical that it would have made that much of a difference to the outcome. The real problem, IMO, it’s that we’re just not South Korea: we’re not disciplined. We’re unruly. Even if Trump had listened to the experts fully, even if he had never gotten rid of the pandemics office, I think we’d still have found ourselves in roughly the same situation, with roughly the same number of deaths. We weren’t mentally prepared for this. 

That being said, Trump hasn’t helped for the most part. And at this point he really is making things worse IMO with his refusal to take federal control on testing and tracing, and his pushing states to open before they’re ready. He appears to care only about his electoral chances and that’s a damning charge if true. 

Comparing a pandemic outbreak to a war is fruitless.  Most wars are well thought out and prepared over time. Sometimes it is years in the planning.

Trump has not done well handling this but according to some DRs the USA would have had to be totally shutdown in mid to late January for this pandemic to be somewhat under control.  Even them it might have been too late as too may were already infected without knowing.   Some even say Jan 1.   People are not accepting the shutdown well now so how would they react shutting everything down and the job losses before anyone was really ill?

Had China released warnings and info days into the pandemic every country would have had a better chance even then it would have spread somewhat.  After a month it was impossible to stop.

 

 

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Just now, RedmondLonghorn said:

I did specify American deaths, but yes, Iraq, Vietnam, and Afghanistan were much bigger disasters for the civilian populations of those countries than they were for us. Despite being pretty big disasters for us.

Thanks, you did take care to note that.  Like I said I just think it's unfortunate that Americans (not you specifically) are extremely myopic when it comes to reflecting on the US military.  They'd probably have a different perception if they saw images of deformed children from spent munitions in Iraq.  To me it's like washing those deaths away, just take them out of the picture.  

Another thing too RL, I'm a little weary of the "war" framing for covid19.  A pandemic is not a war- though Trump is very glad to frame it that way.  It makes him a wartime president; it enables his 'blame China' narrative, a precept which many Republicans & even some Democrats now accept; worst of all, it enables serious military escalation against China in the name of 'holding them accountable' for the coronavirus.  

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5 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

Thanks, you did take care to note that.  Like I said I just think it's unfortunate that Americans (not you specifically) are extremely myopic when it comes to reflecting on the US military.  They'd probably have a different perception if they saw images of deformed children from spent munitions in Iraq.  To me it's like washing those deaths away, just take them out of the picture.  

Another thing too RL, I'm a little weary of the "war" framing for covid19.  A pandemic is not a war- though Trump is very glad to frame it that way.  It makes him a wartime president; it enables his 'blame China' narrative, a precept which many Republicans & even some Democrats now accept; worst of all, it enables serious military escalation against China in the name of 'holding them accountable' for the coronavirus.  

Pandemics aren't wars. That's obvious. The magnitude of the effort and the coordination required to pull off a competent pandemic response at the scale we need to might be similar to the kind of effort required to fight a major war, but I don't think we have any direct evidence of that, since we haven't had anything resembling a competent response.

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21 hours ago, RedmondLonghorn said:

Thanks for the literal whataboutism. We have to make sure every discussion always contains that.

I made no comment about individual state level responses. Some of  them have been very responsible and some have not. I could call out examples of Governors who are examples of each from both parties.

That does not in any way modify the fact the Federal response, as managed by the Executive Branch, has been a total train wreck. 

I think they have done well.  And I'm not trolling with that.  I have generally been happy with the response from the feds.  

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