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Defund the police? UPDATE: It’s a terrible idea which doesn’t work. (1 Viewer)

timschochet

Footballguy
I’m not quite sure what this means. If it means to cut spending on the incredible amount of armor and military supplies that local police in this country have acquired in recent years, then that makes some sense.
If it means simply cutting spending on police across the board then I am opposed (I am always opposed to across the board spending cuts without thought.)
If it means disbanding the police altogether, replaced by some new system of policing, that sounds like insanity to me.

Whatever it means, I’m concerned that the whole idea will lead to a public backlash which may give Donald Trump and his supporters a reprieve on an issue that up to this point has been a big loser for him. And I have to add: this always seems to happen when radicals get control of a reasonable, liberal issue: they immediately propose “solutions” that the otherwise sympathetic public can’t tolerate, and that allows the other side to paint us all as crazy. Very frustrating to see it happening again.
 
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Trump will push this above all else to continue the divide and make the entire thing about this one slogan.

I think many take it as demilitarize and lessen the bloated budgets.  But yes a more radical fringe mean it literally and will co-opt the movement to the point of hurting it altogether.

 
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Just posted something similar in the police thread. This is foolishness that will only end up blocking real progress. There are lots of improvements that should be made, but arguing to throw the baby out with the bath water is clearly a non-starter. 

 
Does defunding the police mean disbanding the police?

That depends on who you ask, said Philip McHarris, a doctoral candidate in sociology at Yale University and lead research and policy associate at the Community Resource Hub for Safety and Accountability.

Some supporters of divestment want to reallocate some, but not all, funds away from police departments to social services. Some want to strip all police funding and dissolve departments.

The concept exists on a spectrum, but both interpretations center on reimagining what public safety looks like, he said.

It also means dismantling the idea that police are "public stewards" meant to protect communities. Many Black Americans and other people of color don't feel protected by police, McHarris said.

 
Look much closer at the budgets police departments have.

In the next couple years while revenues bounce back there are going to have to be cuts made everywhere. Police budgets certainly shouldn’t be above scrutiny. 

 
A quote from a video of protesters I saw said the want to abolish police departments in there entirety.  The quote was to the effect of “we don’t was oppressors walking around our neighborhood with guns”. 
The insanity of these type of statements and/or movements will absolutely detract and dilute the real message and give massive amount of fodder for those opposed.  Without a modern day MLK or Malcolm X (ie leadership) I fear this movement will spiral out and ultimate fizzle out.   Leadership and direction are badly needed if this is going to stay on point and have the impact it deserves.  

 
Trump will push this above all else to continue the divide and make the entire thing about this one slogan.

I think many take it as demilitarize and lessen the bloated budgets.  But yes a more radical fringe mean it literally and will co-opt the movement to the point of hurting it altogether.
He is already doing this on Twitter this morning, two tweets and counting (see Trump Tweets Thread).

 
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Some supporters of divestment want to reallocate some, but not all, funds away from police departments to social services. Some want to strip all police funding and dissolve departments.
I always take it as the latter, which is unacceptable. BLM proposed this previously. It's a non-starter for almost everyone.

The former is an age-old debate, where to allocate resources. This likely depends on your parish/county, city/town. We have always underfunded our schools in NO and Louisiana. And I mean always.

 
I think there needs to be some very quick and immediate pushback from responsible Democrats, probably starting with Biden. Something along the lines of “Reform yes, defund no.” Do not let Trump take control of the narrative here. 

 
Some people want to abolish prisons, too. No joke. Some people do. 
I actually know a couple of these people.  It's weird, because they're intelligent, well-educated folks who are extremely pleasant to talk to.  When you suddenly learn that they hold this really bizarre and obviously unhinged belief, it's extremely jarring.  I imagine this is probably what it would be like for an atheist to discover that a long-time colleague who they like and respect is also a YEC.

 
I actually know a couple of these people.  It's weird, because they're intelligent, well-educated folks who are extremely pleasant to talk to.  When you suddenly learn that they hold this really bizarre and obviously unhinged belief, it's extremely jarring.  I imagine this is probably what it would be like for an atheist to discover that a long-time colleague who they like and respect is also a YEC.
Yep. The people that I know that feel this way are extraordinarily intelligent, just sort of...let's say...optimistic about human nature.  

Oh, okay, call them delusional about it. We're among friends here.  

 
I’m not quite sure what this means. If it means to cut spending on the incredible amount of armor and military supplies that local police in this country have acquired in recent years, then that makes some sense. 
I want to push back on the idea that framing this as "defund the police" makes some sense.  No, it doesn't make any sense.

We should absolutely demilitarize the police.  No more armored vehicles.  No military-style rifles.  Less body armor and riot gear.  Technically that will mean spending less on law enforcement, but we're not taking these steps because they save money.  We're demilitarizing the police because that's an important step in reducing police brutality.  If demilitarizing the police actually costs money and required increasing funding for the police, it would still be the right thing to do.  "Defund the police" puts the focus on the police force as a budget item, which completely misses the point.

 
Then again, I once worked with an author who called our democracy a "custodial" one, meaning that there were so many people in prisons that we'd become our brother's keeper on a grander scale than we imagined or wanted. I can also see that argument: to decriminalize a lot of criminal activity might be beneficial to all of us. Setting the bar so low for what constitutes a crime leads to overcharging at the prosecutorial level and the like, which is an impediment to our justice system and the notions of fair and speedy trials.  

 
I want to push back on the idea that framing this as "defund the police" makes some sense.  No, it doesn't make any sense.

We should absolutely demilitarize the police.  No more armored vehicles.  No military-style rifles.  Less body armor and riot gear.  Technically that will mean spending less on law enforcement, but we're not taking these steps because they save money.  We're demilitarizing the police because that's an important step in reducing police brutality.  If demilitarizing the police actually costs money and required increasing funding for the police, it would still be the right thing to do.  "Defund the police" puts the focus on the police force as a budget item, which completely misses the point.
And demilitarizing does just that; it demilitarizes a profession that has no business having the trappings of military-style units, whose goal is generally kill or be killed. Not what we want.  

 
The goal isn't hard.  Demilitarize the police and get rid of the officers that don't want to serve all the public.

It starts with accountability for actions and from within the police departments.  

 
We're demilitarizing the police because that's an important step in reducing police brutality. 
Sorry, why is this so? Chauvin killed Floyd with his knee and one hand in his pocket.

I think the militarization is a 3rd Amendment and democracy issue. The one thing I’ll say is that PDs feeling they are so armored that they are insulated from public protest and pressure is self fulfilling in terms of being anti-democratic.

 
I actually know a couple of these people.  It's weird, because they're intelligent, well-educated folks who are extremely pleasant to talk to.  When you suddenly learn that they hold this really bizarre and obviously unhinged belief, it's extremely jarring.  I imagine this is probably what it would be like for an atheist to discover that a long-time colleague who they like and respect is also a YEC.
Yep. The people that I know that feel this way are extraordinarily intelligent, just sort of...let's say...optimistic about human nature.  

Oh, okay, call them delusional about it. We're among friends here.  


What do they propose we do with people who rape and murder.   I'm sure they wouldn't allow it to go unpunished, right?  

Murder someone and now you have to be a butler to the surviving members of the family?  

 
What do they propose we do with people who rape and murder.   I'm sure they wouldn't allow it to go unpunished, right?  

Murder someone and now you have to be a butler to the surviving members of the family?  
I never really got that far with them. I'd suppose rehabilitative efforts would need to be made in their estimation. 

I don't know. Just no prisons.  

 
This graphic describes the problem and solution very well.  I don’t agree with all of it, but I agree with a whole lot of it.  Police work in its current form (especially in the age of drug enforcement, mass incarceration and civil forfeiture) should not be understood as allied to the interests of the citizen.  

 
I’m not quite sure what this means. If it means to cut spending on the incredible amount of armor and military supplies that local police in this country have acquired in recent years, then that makes some sense. 
If it means simply cutting spending on police across the board then I am opposed (I am always opposed to across the board spending cuts without thought.)
If it means disbanding the police altogether, replaced by some new system of policing, that sounds like insanity to me. 

Whatever it means, I’m concerned that the whole idea will lead to a public backlash which may give Donald Trump and his supporters  a reprieve on an issue that up to this point has been a big loser for him. And I have to add: this always seems to happen when radicals get control of a reasonable, liberal issue: they immediately propose “solutions” that the otherwise sympathetic public can’t tolerate, and that allows the other side to paint us all as crazy. Very frustrating to see it happening again. 
You have no idea what Antifa and BLM's agenda is?

 
Any of you familiar with the youtube musings of Beau of the Fifth Column? Dude is legit good (thoughtful, articulate, well read, experienced, knows where his wheelhouse begins and ends, etc.)

Anyway, below is a 14+ minute video on police militarization that I found very insightful (cliff's notes: he's against it which may surprise you when you visually stereotype him as I certainly did).

https://youtu.be/LB3HUXdmid4

 
Are the people calling to completely defund the police the same people saying American’s shouldn’t defend themselves in church shootings?  We should call the police, right?  Are we allowed to defend ourselves now?

 
Also:  people didn’t want national guard/military sent in for riot control.

Some are saying the police shouldn’t have riot gear.  What the hell are we supposed to do?  Let the cities burn in the name of justice?

 
A quote from a video of protesters I saw said the want to abolish police departments in there entirety.  The quote was to the effect of “we don’t was oppressors walking around our neighborhood with guns”. 
The insanity of these type of statements and/or movements will absolutely detract and dilute the real message and give massive amount of fodder for those opposed.  Without a modern day MLK or Malcolm X (ie leadership) I fear this movement will spiral out and ultimate fizzle out.   Leadership and direction are badly needed if this is going to stay on point and have the impact it deserves.  
Wow, that is ridiculous. These extreme positions will prevent progress. Can’t believe there no one to talk sense into people taking this position. 

 
Also:  people didn’t want national guard/military sent in for riot control.

Some are saying the police shouldn’t have riot gear.  What the hell are we supposed to do?  Let the cities burn in the name of justice?
Do you know the demographics of the military?

 
I think there needs to be some very quick and immediate pushback from responsible Democrats, probably starting with Biden. Something along the lines of “Reform yes, defund no.” Do not let Trump take control of the narrative here. 
Yeah, defund is such a broad term that sounds like police departments would be abolished. Very few want that, and of course, it would never happen, but Trump can make it sound like all those crazy libs want just that.

 
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This graphic describes the problem and solution very well.  I don’t agree with all of it, but I agree with a whole lot of it.  Police work in its current form (especially in the age of drug enforcement, mass incarceration and civil forfeiture) should not be understood as allied to the interests of the citizen.  
Ah the civil forfeiture program that skyrocketed under Obama... I wonder if Biden plans to bring those glory days back as well. 

 
I'm firmly in the camp of cutting the military type stuff almost completely out(the exception being SWAT and maybe bomb squads), but anything other than that is unwise to me. There needs to be a good police force able to handle stuff like murder, robbery, and the like, but the surplus equipment seems to be a waste of taxpayer dollars to me.

 
I actually know a couple of these people.  It's weird, because they're intelligent, well-educated folks who are extremely pleasant to talk to.  When you suddenly learn that they hold this really bizarre and obviously unhinged belief, it's extremely jarring.  I imagine this is probably what it would be like for an atheist to discover that a long-time colleague who they like and respect is also a YEC.
I'm not sure what "abolish prisons" constitutes, but I would like us to "abolish" the current state of our prisons in this country.  Our prison system dehumanizes people and gives them absolutely zero hope of rehabilitation.  The European model makes a lot more sense to me.  

 
Are the people calling to completely defund the police the same people saying American’s shouldn’t defend themselves in church shootings?  We should call the police, right?  Are we allowed to defend ourselves now?
The want control of policing in the hands of the citizens, not sure how you do that without guns, they probably havent thought that far ahead. And  it's ironic armed citizens have been a pretty good deterrent to these same rioters so far.  

 
It seems like most people don’t even know what their city’s police budgets go towards.

Should definitely be looked closely at. 

 
I'm not sure what that has to do with "The military can't come in for a riot, and the police can't be prepared for a riot."
Riots are a symptom of the problem.  So let's start by solving the problem instead of ignoring it and gearing up for the repercussions.  

 
Riots are a symptom of the problem.  So let's start by solving the problem instead of ignoring it and gearing up for the repercussions.  
I agree. 

But we can't just let everyone burn down New York, LA, Atlanta etc until we get a solution to the problem.  

 
Ah the civil forfeiture program that skyrocketed under Obama... I wonder if Biden plans to bring those glory days back as well. 
Even if you agree that Obama/Biden (Biden especially) were atrocious in terms of advancing a militarized police state (one of many reasons why Biden is completely unacceptable & a garbage candidate), this practice has only gotten worse under Trump.  It is not a point of favor for him.  The only silver lining is that Trump is actually honest about the nature of the program, rather than putting liberal window dressing on it.  

 
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I agree. 

But we can't just let everyone burn down New York, LA, Atlanta etc until we get a solution to the problem.  
We have had decades to address the problem.  The reactions are on the lawmakers.  Now protesters and rioters are not one on the same mostly.  Fix the problem and quit giving rioters cover.

 
We have had decades to address the problem.  The reactions are on the lawmakers.  Now protesters and rioters are not one on the same mostly.  Fix the problem and quit giving rioters cover.
Ok man.  You're right let's let America burn to the ground while the law makers figure it out.

We have to have police, and they have to have the ability to take care of rioting and looting.

 
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Hit the wrong button. It’s a sad which is what I intended.

Its just sad to me that this kind of rhetorical language is being cast about by friends. 
It's not cast about. He's reading it in multiple places, as evidence by Tim asking and he's sincerely asking if that's how I feel too.

He (and I) are fortunate in that we have people on "the other" side that we can talk about stuff like. A GREAT many people don't. 

 
It's not cast about. He's reading it in multiple places, as evidence by Tim asking and he's sincerely asking if that's how I feel too.

He (and I) are fortunate in that we have people on "the other" side that we can talk about stuff like. A GREAT many people don't. 
Yep, agree. If you can have frank discussions like this it’s very admirable.

 
I’ll repost what I posted in another thread: 

I think there’s a very small percentage of people who want to disband the police entirely and there’s zero chance Biden will allow that to happen as he’s a more moderate Democrat anyways.

It seems like the majority want to cut off some of the funding the police receive which seems pretty reasonable to me when you look at how much some of them are currently getting.

That being said, the ‘defund the police’ slogan is a very bad one to run on and obviously can be taken advantage of by Trump and the Republicans.

 
There are two issues here: the actual one and the political one. 
Putting aside the actual issue for the moment (since I’ve already admitted I’m not as knowledgeable as I should be) let me address just the political one: 

it’s a loser. 
 

In terms of politics I don’t care what is meant by “defund the police”- the phrase itself is a terrible loser. It’s a loser to say you’re for this. It’s a loser to hem and haw and say that it means many different things (which I heard one Democratic councilwoman say on TV this morning). It’s a loser to not take an opinion on. 
 

Will it turn the election around in favor of Trump and the Republicans? No idea, but it’s the first thing that could. This is extremely dangerous and the Democrats had better clamp down on this very quickly. 

 

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