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Can we continue the discussion about masks? (3 Viewers)

Leana Wen, M.D. @DrLeanaWen · Sep 16

Maine wedding ‘superspreader’ event is now linked to seven deaths. None of those people attended.

This is why masks, and proper social distancing are important - and why putting kids in schools is risky.  When you are exposed to the virus - you are a national health threat, even if you have no symptoms, and suffer no immediate consequences.  The more people that get it, the more people that spread it, and the more people who are inadvertently exposed - and suffer bad outcomes.

You don't wear a mask because the government tell you.  You wear a mask because you are patriotic, and you respect your fellow citizens. 

 
TripItUp said:
99% of people I know are pro-mask.   This feels like an emotional issue that the left clings too to justify why the other side is so bad, but it's really a non--issue for most of the country as far as I can tell.  There will be always be extremists, but you block their rhetoric out just like you would on any other topic.
Click to expand...
Different parts of the country, I guess.   Our restaurant just opened up to allow take out.  The other day I stopped counting at about 35 people that didn't bother with their masks.  Owner told us to stop bringing it up to people because it does nothing but get them pissed.  

And this is a state (Wi) where the UW system is having trouble and I think my wife said the county she is from is one of the worst in the country as far as new cases.  

It's very, very frustrating. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
Leana Wen, M.D. @DrLeanaWen · Sep 16

Maine wedding ‘superspreader’ event is now linked to seven deaths. None of those people attended.

This is why masks, and proper social distancing are important - and why putting kids in schools is risky.  When you are exposed to the virus - you are a national health threat, even if you have no symptoms, and suffer no immediate consequences.  The more people that get it, the more people that spread it, and the more people who are inadvertently exposed - and suffer bad outcomes.

You don't wear a mask because the government tell you.  You wear a mask because you are patriotic, and you respect your fellow citizens. 
Click to expand...
The real life response to this post has been "it's probably a lie that those people died and even if they did they were going to die anyway". 

 
John Branch @JohnBranchNYT  ·7h

If about seven full 737s crashed in the US every day for the past six months, killing everyone aboard? About 200,000 lives lost. If people were told at some point that the crashes could be prevented by wearing a surgical mask when in a crowd, I imagine we’d probably do it.

😷

 
Sinn Fein said:
John Branch @JohnBranchNYT  ·7h

If about seven full 737s crashed in the US every day for the past six months, killing everyone aboard? About 200,000 lives lost. If people were told at some point that the crashes could be prevented by wearing a surgical mask when in a crowd, I imagine we’d probably do it.

😷
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I don't think so.  The people who wear masks to help others already do.  The ones who don't, don't care that 200,000 have died from this.  As long as they feel that THEIR rights are being violated they just won't do it.  I just wish I could understand that line of thinking, but I can't wrap my head around it.  

 
Sinn Fein said:
John Branch @JohnBranchNYT  ·7h

If about seven full 737s crashed in the US every day for the past six months, killing everyone aboard? About 200,000 lives lost. If people were told at some point that the crashes could be prevented by wearing a surgical mask when in a crowd, I imagine we’d probably do it.

😷
Click to expand...
Naw....i would just avoid flying.

 
Prinefan said:
I don't think so.  The people who wear masks to help others already do.  The ones who don't, don't care that 200,000 have died from this.  As long as they feel that THEIR rights are being violated they just won't do it.  I just wish I could understand that line of thinking, but I can't wrap my head around it.  
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It has always been the selfish aspect that’s prevented the needed compliance. The moment we started to tell people wearing a mask was about protecting others and not just yourself, we lost a good chunk of the country. It really is depressing.

Here in Arizona numbers have gotten much better and they’re looking at removing mask mandates. The state never did one but Maricopa County (Phoenix metro) and most cities did one. Scottsdale just ended theirs and Maricopa is considering bringing it to discussion. With flu season coming, it’s the worst time to consider it but what’s the worst that can happen?

 
[scooter] said:
Stealthycat said:
maybe the people in your area all wear N95 masks .... in mine they don't, its mostly home made masks 
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Is this post from March? I haven't seen anyone wearing a homemade mask in 6 months.
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Looking at Stealthy's sciencealert link, almost everyone locally wears either the two-layer cotton masks or the surgical masks -- both which are listed as appropriate for indoor use. Maybe 5% locally wear neck gaiters, and a small handful wear something else altogether (N95s/KN95, face shield, etc.). I'm not getting the "you're not protected and no one's protected" angle.

It's OK if some percentage of people wear their mask wrong, or wear the wrong kind of mask, or doesn't wash their mask enough, etc. The idea is to collectively do enough to make a difference, not so much to collectively do it perfectly.

...

The bigger problem locally is too many people wearing masks with their noses exposed, or even losing their willpower and dropping their masks to chin level. But again -- it's not enough people doing that to make all efforts for naught.

 
Stealthycat said:
so we've beat covid thanks to masks? 

I again paid attention yesterday in the grocery store and gym and wal-mart .... I didn't see any high grade quality surgical masks just the cheap ones you buy everywhere or homemade ones and oooooops

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/09/22/covid-kn-95-masks-imported-china-dont-meet-standards-ecri/5806327002/
Click to expand...
That article is about health care providers and first responders not everyday citizens. The purpose of everyone wearing masks is not to protect the individual but to protect others from you breathing out moisture. The mask and the social distancing is to minimize as much as possible the transmission of airborne particles. We haven't beat Covid at all. It has killed 200,000 people and without lockdowns, social distancing and, yes, masks it might have been more. And unfortunately, it will be more. We might never beat Covid but we must try and minimize and slow the transmission of it until we can find a vaccine or treatment for it. It's not fun for anyone to have to wear a mask or not be able to do things like we used to but it is reality.

 
Stealthycat said:
Doug B said:
But again -- it's not enough people doing that to make all efforts for naught.
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so we've beat covid thanks to masks? 
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This is a non-sequitir -- I never even so much hinted about any kind of finality of outcome.

Also, my words that you pull-quoted (in red) were referring to a specific situation local to my neck of the woods -- nothing about "we beat covid" ("we" being "the U.S.") should be inferred.

 
Doug B said:
This is a non-sequitir -- I never even so much hinted about any kind of finality of outcome.

Also, my words that you pull-quoted (in red) were referring to a specific situation local to my neck of the woods -- nothing about "we beat covid" ("we" being "the U.S.") should be inferred.
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tell me your neck of the woods and the horrific damage covid has caused 

please, I'd love to know because me ?

3 million live in Arkansas

7,000 cases of covid

1209 attributed deaths

what % is that ?? 3% ? isn't that what people said was going to happen, 3% death rate? and we're backwoods, don't wear masks, still having parties and .. oh look, 1209 attributed deaths is all, not a high infection rate .... it goes against everything we've been told about this highly contagious deadly virus

amazing isn't it ?

76,981 total cases

2,209 probable cases

6,706 active cases

1,209 deaths

69,184 recoveries

831,265 negative tests

 
Stealthycat said:
tell me your neck of the woods and the horrific damage covid has caused 

please, I'd love to know because me ?

3 million live in Arkansas

7,000 cases of covid

1209 attributed deaths

what % is that ?? 3% ? isn't that what people said was going to happen, 3% death rate? and we're backwoods, don't wear masks, still having parties and .. oh look, 1209 attributed deaths is all, not a high infection rate .... it goes against everything we've been told about this highly contagious deadly virus

amazing isn't it ?

76,981 total cases

2,209 probable cases

6,706 active cases

1,209 deaths

69,184 recoveries

831,265 negative tests
Click to expand...
I love the small sample size and using a whole state that has about 1/3 the population as a major metro city.  Maybe the fact you are backwoods and spread out helped? 

 
Stealthycat said:
tell me your neck of the woods and the horrific damage covid has caused ...
Click to expand...
AFAIC, this is all, still, off topic.

What I was saying is that locally (a) the problem has been less the wrong types of masks or dirty masks ... the problem locally has been more some people pulling masks down either exposing their noses or exposing both their noses and mouths. (b) However, the number of people wearing masks wrong locally has not been enough to impugn the overall mitigation effort of masking.

You wrote that last week that enough people were wearing the wrong types of masks, wearing them wrong, wearing them dirty, etc. that all masking efforts were essentially being undermined and thus people by and large weren't being protected:

and most masks people wear are dirty, poorly worn and not suggested for indoor use

so the people thinking they're protecting others really are not and the people feeling safe are not really safe
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I assume that this take was at least in part based on what you're seeing around you in your everyday life. My response is based on the idea that other places see different things altogether in regards to masking.

 
KarmaPolice said:
I love the small sample size and using a whole state that has about 1/3 the population as a major metro city.  Maybe the fact you are backwoods and spread out helped? 
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small sample sizes are what polls you reference are based on 

but ok, lets use the USA and you tell me of the 330 million people here, what % have died of attributed covid19 ? (use the 200,000 mark and tell me what % that is)

I'll wait  

 
Doug B said:
I assume that this take was at least in part based on what you're seeing around you in your everyday life. My response is based on the idea that other places see different things altogether in regards to masking.
Click to expand...
then why not allow local / geographical areas/places to do their own thing vs making it a national issue ?

 
Stealthycat said:
small sample sizes are what polls you reference are based on 

but ok, lets use the USA and you tell me of the 330 million people here, what % have died of attributed covid19 ? (use the 200,000 mark and tell me what % that is)

I'll wait  
Click to expand...
Except...they are representative of a whole popluation...not one area.  If you think Arkansas alone is representative of the US population...you severely misunderstand sampling.

 
Stealthycat said:
then why not allow local / geographical areas/places to do their own thing vs making it a national issue ?
Click to expand...
I don't know ... you'll have to ask someone who's making that point. I was debating instead against a specific point you made:

and most masks people wear are dirty, poorly worn and not suggested for indoor use

so the people thinking they're protecting others really are not and the people feeling safe are not really safe
Click to expand...

 
Stealthycat said:
small sample sizes are what polls you reference are based on 

but ok, lets use the USA and you tell me of the 330 million people here, what % have died of attributed covid19 ? (use the 200,000 mark and tell me what % that is)

I'll wait  
Click to expand...
What poll did I reference? 

We have covered this before.  I am not ok with the # of deaths, you seem to be.  I don't care what the % is compared to what was predicted.  It changes, it's a virus.   200k is a huge # that could be so much smaller as others have shown us, but for a multitude of mostly embarrassing reasons, we as a whole also seem to be fine with 100s of thousands of deaths.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I am not ok with the # of deaths, you seem to be.
Click to expand...
I care about the 2.5 million dying of obesity, 850,000 dying of abortion, 500,000 dying of smoking and 200,000 dying of medical mistakes .... and I care about elderly and those already with existing conditions who get sick absolutely

I think you can find my quotes across multiple forums where I say every life and every soul matters

But honest question to you - with the hundreds of thousands who've died in my lifetime of flu and pneumonia in the United States .... why have we never forced everyone to wear masks before now? Did those lives/deaths not matter? Added up they far exceed the thousands who've died FROM covid19 so far.  

 
Stealthycat said:
I care about the 2.5 million dying of obesity, 850,000 dying of abortion, 500,000 dying of smoking and 200,000 dying of medical mistakes .... and I care about elderly and those already with existing conditions who get sick absolutely

I think you can find my quotes across multiple forums where I say every life and every soul matters

But honest question to you - with the hundreds of thousands who've died in my lifetime of flu and pneumonia in the United States .... why have we never forced everyone to wear masks before now? Did those lives/deaths not matter? Added up they far exceed the thousands who've died FROM covid19 so far.  
Click to expand...
Are those hundreds of thousands of deaths occurring over a 6 month period at a death rate 4 times higher than the rest of the world?  Flu deaths last year -"Preliminary CDC estimates for the 2019-2020 influenza season indicate that, as of April 4, 2020, between 24,000 and 62,000 lost their lives to the flu."  Considering the Covid tracking fiasco from the beginning of the year it's a fair assumption that some of those were also Covid related.  Scientists have demonstrated many times over that the models indicate that many thousands of lives would have been saved if everyone wore masks from the jump.  I do understand that some people don't believe in science so we'll agree to disagree.

 
Stealthycat said:
But honest question to you - with the hundreds of thousands who've died in my lifetime of flu and pneumonia in the United States .... why have we never forced everyone to wear masks before now? Did those lives/deaths not matter? Added up they far exceed the thousands who've died FROM covid19 so far.  
Click to expand...
We had mask mandates during the Spanish Flu pandemic.

We didn't have mask mandates during other outbreaks because community spread was not large enough to make masks effective.

To put it in layman's terms: masks become necessary when a communicable virus is killing ~20,000 people per month.

 
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Stealthycat said:
I care about the 2.5 million dying of obesity, 850,000 dying of abortion, 500,000 dying of smoking and 200,000 dying of medical mistakes .... and I care about elderly and those already with existing conditions who get sick absolutely

I think you can find my quotes across multiple forums where I say every life and every soul matters

But honest question to you - with the hundreds of thousands who've died in my lifetime of flu and pneumonia in the United States .... why have we never forced everyone to wear masks before now? Did those lives/deaths not matter? Added up they far exceed the thousands who've died FROM covid19 so far.  
Click to expand...
Covid-19 is a top 5 cause of death in the US already, and may come close to being number one over the course of a year - Nos. 1 and 2, heart disease and cancer, each include multiple diseases, so it’s not exactly a fair comparison. Same goes for obesity and smoking-related deaths, but you already knew that. And it’s killed way more than all but the worst influenza pandemics.

While the percentage of the total population who’ve died is small, I’m not sure why a new infection which has killed so many people, so quickly, despite measures to contain it isn’t worthy of concern. So I’ll ask again: how bad would covid need to be for you to agree strict infection control policy is warranted?

 
Stealthycat said:
I care about the 2.5 million dying of obesity, 850,000 dying of abortion, 500,000 dying of smoking and 200,000 dying of medical mistakes .... and I care about elderly and those already with existing conditions who get sick absolutely

I think you can find my quotes across multiple forums where I say every life and every soul matters

But honest question to you - with the hundreds of thousands who've died in my lifetime of flu and pneumonia in the United States .... why have we never forced everyone to wear masks before now? Did those lives/deaths not matter? Added up they far exceed the thousands who've died FROM covid19 so far.  
Click to expand...
I think the bolded is a big part of the question.  I also like how you said 100s of thousands for one and just thousands for covid too.  

ETA: and after 6 months of this I would hope most, and you, know why this is different, like JS posted above.  

 
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Just pointing out what happened in our area in central NC.  Our local church had a billboard sign out reading "Love Thy Neighbor, Wear A Mask".   Someone who doesn't believe in masks took a knife and cut out the "wear a mask" part.  Real class shown by the non-maskers around here.  

Wearing a mask says a lot about a person.  Not wearing one says even more.

 
Sinn Fein said:
John Branch @JohnBranchNYT  ·7h

If about seven full 737s crashed in the US every day for the past six months, killing everyone aboard? About 200,000 lives lost. If people were told at some point that the crashes could be prevented by wearing a surgical mask when in a crowd, I imagine we’d probably do it.

😷
Click to expand...
I wonder from the mask wearing crew, how many replace their masks after each use or properly disinfect them after each use?  I would bet the percentage is less than 10%, probably less than 5%.    

 
Snotbubbles said:
I wonder from the mask wearing crew, how many replace their masks after each use or properly disinfect them after each use?  I would bet the percentage is less than 10%, probably less than 5%.    
Click to expand...
My wife washes ours pretty regularly. She said she heard that they should be treated like underwear in terms of use and washing. Not sure we go quite that far, but they are washed fairly often.

 
dgreen said:
My wife washes ours pretty regularly. She said she heard that they should be treated like underwear in terms of use and washing. Not sure we go quite that far, but they are washed fairly often.
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So wait, do you wash regularly or treat it like underwear?  I gotta say, this is kind of confusing.

/pigpen

 
Snotbubbles said:
I wonder from the mask wearing crew, how many replace their masks after each use or properly disinfect them after each use?  I would bet the percentage is less than 10%, probably less than 5%.    
Click to expand...
1) I'm not doing open-heart surgery -- I'm going to get groceries.

2) "Proper disinfection" = "throw in the washing machine". Outside of medical settings, medical protocols are not nearly required.

3) Masks are clothes. Many people by now have several apiece -- there's no need to keep using one mask over and over and over. Kind of like underwear or socks -- a mask a day is fine, just gotta have several ready to go for the rest of the week.

It's uncommon for me to do more than one major errand in a day, so zero or one masked outing a day is the norm. Every time before I leave the house, I grab a new mask from the family Stash O' Masks (we have a few dozen washables). After use, they go into the laundry.

 
dgreen said:
My wife washes ours pretty regularly. She said she heard that they should be treated like underwear in terms of use and washing. Not sure we go quite that far, but they are washed fairly often.
Click to expand...
Hint from Heloise Doug B:

One of my kids recently had a nosebleed in one of their washable masks. We were on the road, an hour from home. What to do? Douse the stained mask in hydrogen peroxide and let sit for a minute or so. Really wet that mask with the peroxide, don't be shy. Then rinse thoroughly with warm water, then wring and repeat the peroxide treatment. Then apply a little dish soap for sudsing, squeeze and knead the mask to get some suds really going, then another rinse & wring. Stain was gone, and mask was ready to launder as usual.

 
Snotbubbles said:
I wonder from the mask wearing crew, how many replace their masks after each use or properly disinfect them after each use?  I would bet the percentage is less than 10%, probably less than 5%.    
Click to expand...
At work, I replace masks after each use, except when PPE was in short supply.

Outside of work, I leave my masks in the car after use. The sun/heat probably disinfects them somewhat.

Still, as long as I sanitize my hands frequently, mask contamination isn’t likely to be an issue. I err on the side of caution at work because my exposure risk and contact with vulnerable individuals is much, much higher.

If you’re looking to find fault with the “mask wearing crew”, you’d do better to point out how many wear them improperly/inconsistently, and the potential for breakdown of non-cloth masks due to moisture.

But it’s much easier to criticize the maskless posse. Do you have any questions about them?

 
Terminalxylem said:
At work, I replace masks after each use, except when PPE was in short supply.

Outside of work, I leave my masks in the car after use. The sun/heat probably disinfects them somewhat.

If you’re looking to find fault with the “mask wearing crew”, you’d do better to point out how many wear them improperly/inconsistently, and the potential for breakdown of non-cloth masks due to moisture.

But it’s much easier to criticize the maskless posse. Do you have any questions about them?
Click to expand...
You of all people are going to go with "sitting them out in my car disinfects them"?  :lol:  .... "somewhat" :lmao:  

I'm gonna try that tomorrow in the OR and see how that goes.  Wait, no I won't.. they would laugh me back to my car.

Inproper/inconsistent mask use is 100% a legit argument.  You see it everyday.  Still.  Every.  Time.

I have yet to see a maskless posse.  If I do I will gladly ask them why they aren't wearing a mask (properly) when they should.

eta - that deserves another :lol:

 
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Snotbubbles said:
I wonder from the mask wearing crew, how many replace their masks after each use or properly disinfect them after each use?  I would bet the percentage is less than 10%, probably less than 5%.    
Click to expand...
🙋🏻‍♂️
 

We have about 10 cloth ones each that my wife washes after every use.  

 
[scooter] said:
FYI, the rest of us has a meeting while you were suspended for 6 weeks and we all agreed not to take your bait anymore.
Click to expand...
Feel free to use any excuse you can to run from a simple question.

Where, again, are you running into mask wearing as an outsider thing?  Where are the "so many people" exactly?

Please report any non echoing posts some more.  :thumbup:

 
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matuski said:
You of all people are going to go with "sitting them out in my car disinfects them"?  :lol:

I'm gonna try that tomorrow in the OR and see how that goes.  Wait, no I won't.. they would laugh me back to my car.

Inproper/inconsistent mask use is 100% a legit argument.  You see it everyday.  Still.  Every.  Time.

I have yet to see a maskless posse.  If I do I will gladly ask them why they aren't wearing a mask (properly) when they should.

eta - that deserves another :lol:
Click to expand...
It ain’t an autoclave by any means (calm down, I know that’s not what is really used to sterilize masks). But for everyday exposure risk coupled with appropriate hand hygiene and distancing, the outside of my mask doesn’t require that level of sterility.

From this and prior posts, it sounds like people in your OR are quite a jolly bunch. Are you sure they’re laughing about masks? 

 
Terminalxylem said:
It ain’t an autoclave by any means (calm down, I know that’s not what is really used to sterilize masks). But for everyday exposure risk coupled with appropriate hand hygiene and distancing, the outside of my mask doesn’t require that level of sterility.

From this and prior posts, it sounds like people in your OR are quite a jolly bunch. Are you sure they’re laughing about masks? 
Click to expand...
It is 100% an old joke by now.

Yes - it is understood that re-wearing a mask is inproper use of a mask.  The car as an autoclave will definitely get a laugh tomorrow though.  This will be a new angle.

Your point is taken though ( @Doug B too)  - I am with you on the lesser consideration required for your daily errands.  It is the high and mighty mask dogma that I laugh at when you know most spewing it arent actually doing it right.  :thumbup:  

 
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matuski said:
Feel free to use any excuse you can to run from a simple question.

Where, again, are you running into mask wearing as an outsider thing?  Where are the "so many people" exactly?

Please report any non echoing posts some more.  :thumbup:
Click to expand...
Not really interested in getting the middle of your guys slap fight, but the op asked a question of....

Snotbubbles said:
the mask wearing crew
Click to expand...
This implies there is a non face masking wearing crew.  🤷‍♂️

 
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