matuski
Footballguy
I haven't run into any of these areas/people....There are areas in Texas that still think they’re governed by Mexico
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I haven't run into any of these areas/people....There are areas in Texas that still think they’re governed by Mexico
Why not? If they are just sitting at desks and teachers are rotating among rooms, that's not social development. That's jail. Younger kids need school partly because they can socialize and have free play at recess. Sitting at a desk with a mask on just means they aren't at home. The teachers can't really teach sitting at the front of the room and never moving.
They're not face to face, they'll all have masks on. Their desks are all 6+ feet apart and all facing the same direction. There's no lunch, no free play, no before- and after-school congregating on school property. And I doubt in-school instruction will be infinitely better when the teacher is dividing their efforts and attention between the handful of kids in the classroom and the rest of the kids online, which is where it seems most schools are landing. The learning environment for all students will be worse in a hybrid plan than if they were all in-person or all online IMO.They are face to face with other people (at those desks, at lunch, before and after school). See their friends, make new ones. ie social development. Not to mention the infinitely better learning environment.
Invaluable imo. Worth the risk.
Growing up on zoom and Xbox is a MUCH closer semblance to jail.
Decision made last night that completely reversed course. All virtual learning for all grades for the first quarter including my daughter's preschool. We will not enroll her in preschool as there's no point for her to do "virtual learning" at 4 years old. They will be giving iPads for all the elementary school kids. My son already has a laptop for HS from last year. They will be taking attendance each day and I think there will be a combination of live plus recorded learning. We start in 2 weeks.My son's HS is going full virtual. It will be this for grades 5-12 in the district.
My daughter's elementary school is going 5 days/week with either AM or PM (we'll find out which we are soon, I supposed). This is for K-4. You can opt for full virtual as well.
We will be sending her. I might send my son to her school too.
Good thread on this study and how it was misleading.Was coming in to post the same.As encouraging as that German study was that we posted on Monday/Tuesday, and the results of an Irish study that I read about (though the number of cases tracked was only 3), this large scale study out of South Korea is a little more sobering on the transmission of the virus through kids. Essentially kids 10 and younger spread at about half the rate of adults, but kids aged 10-19 spread it at the same rate as adults, actually at a slightly higher rate than adults (though the study notes some caveats about this)
Article pasted for those not wanting to click through to it:
In the heated debate over reopening schools, one burning question has been whether and how efficiently children can spread the virus to others.
A large new study from South Korea offers an answer: Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero. And those between the ages of 10 and 19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do.
The findings suggest that as schools reopen, communities will see clusters of infection take root that include children of all ages, several experts cautioned.
“I fear that there has been this sense that kids just won’t get infected or don’t get infected in the same way as adults and that, therefore, they’re almost like a bubbled population,” said Michael Osterholm, an infectious diseases expert at the University of Minnesota.
“There will be transmission,” Dr. Osterholm said. “What we have to do is accept that now and include that in our plans.”
Several studies from Europe and Asia have suggested that young children are less likely to get infected and to spread the virus. But most of those studies were small and flawed, said Dr. Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute.
The new study “is very carefully done, it’s systematic and looks at a very large population,” Dr. Jha said. “It’s one of the best studies we’ve had to date on this issue.”
Other experts also praised the scale and rigor of the analysis. South Korean researchers identified 5,706 people who were the first to report Covid-19 symptoms in their households between Jan. 20 and March 27, when schools were closed, and then traced the 59,073 contacts of these “index cases.” They tested all of the household contacts of each patient, regardless of symptoms, but only tested symptomatic contacts outside the household.
The first person in a household to develop symptoms is not necessarily the first to have been infected, and the researchers acknowledged this limitation. Children are also less likely than adults to show symptoms, so the study may have underestimated the number of children who set off the chain of transmission within their households.
Still, experts said the approach was reasonable. “It is also from a place with great contact tracing, done at the point interventions were being put in place,” said Bill Hanage, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.
Children under 10 were roughly half as likely as adults to spread the virus to others, consistent with other studies. That may be because children generally exhale less air — and therefore less virus-laden air — or because they exhale that air closer to the ground, making it less likely that adults would breathe it in.
Even so, the number of new infections seeded by children may rise when schools reopen, the study authors cautioned. “Young children may show higher attack rates when the school closure ends, contributing to community transmission of Covid-19,” they wrote. Other studies have also suggested that the large number of contacts for schoolchildren, who interact with dozens of others for a good part of the day, may cancel out their smaller risk of infecting others.
The researchers traced the contacts only of children who felt ill, so it’s still unclear how efficiently asymptomatic children spread the virus, said Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
“I think it was always going to be the case that symptomatic children are infectious,” she said. “The questions about the role of children are more around whether children who don’t have symptoms are infectious.”
Dr. Rivers was a member of a scientific panel that on Wednesday recommended reopening schools wherever possible for disabled children and for those in elementary schools, because those groups have the most trouble learning online. She said the new study does not alter that recommendation.
[Like the Science Times page on Facebook. | Sign up for the Science Times newsletter.]
The study is more worrisome for children in middle and high school. This group was even more likely to infect others than adults were, the study found. But some experts said that finding may be a fluke or may stem from the children’s behaviors.
These older children are frequently as big as adults, and yet may have some of the same unhygienic habits as young children do. They may also have been more likely than the younger children to socialize with their peers within the high-rise complexes in South Korea.
“We can speculate all day about this, but we just don’t know,” Dr. Osterholm said. “The bottom line message is: There’s going to be transmission.”
He and other experts said schools will need to prepare for infections to pop up. Apart from implementing physical distancing, hand hygiene and masks, schools should also decide when and how to test students and staff — including, for example, bus drivers — when and how long to require people to quarantine, and when to decide to close and reopen schools.
But they face a monumental challenge because the evidence on transmission within schools has been far from conclusive so far, experts said. Some countries like Denmark and Finland have successfully reopened schools, but others, like China, Israel and South Korea, have had to close them down again.
“People, depending on their ideology on school opening, are choosing which evidence to present — and that needs to be avoided,” said Jeffrey Shaman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health in New York.
Although the new study does not offer definitive answers, he said, it does indicate that schools can increase virus levels within a community.
“So long as children are not just a complete dead end — incapable of passing the virus on, which does not seem to be the case — putting them together in schools, having them mix with teachers and other students will provide additional opportunities for the virus to move from person to person,” he said.
At the same time, Dr. Shaman said, it’s important for children not to miss out on critical years in education and socialization, and school districts have the unenviable task of choosing between those options: “It’s hard trying to find the right balance.”
Absolutely positively no question IMOAnd I doubt in-school instruction will be infinitely better when the teacher is dividing their efforts and attention between the handful of kids in the classroom and the rest of the kids online, which is where it seems most schools are landing. The learning environment for all students will be worse in a hybrid plan than if they were all in-person or all online IMO.
They should implement rule #1: no whining. Teachers and administrators are doing their best.Absolutely positively no question IMO
And there's no question parents will be complaining (shocker!) what a cluster it'll be.
So all these years in the OR wearing masks haven't counted as face to face interaction? Come on now. I mean this is news to me and all the other people I've been... face to face with.They're not face to face, they'll all have masks on. Their desks are all 6+ feet apart and all facing the same direction. There's no lunch, no free play, no before- and after-school congregating on school property. And I doubt in-school instruction will be infinitely better when the teacher is dividing their efforts and attention between the handful of kids in the classroom and the rest of the kids online, which is where it seems most schools are landing. T
Thank you for the link - as they say, still a lot more to try and learn, bu that is certainly encouraging.Good thread on this study and how it was misleading.
So adults wearing masks in an operating room is analogous to kids learning social development while sitting in rows with masks on? Come on now.So all these years in the OR wearing masks haven't counted as face to face interaction? Come on now.
Our district has no lunch (they're doing half days in-person). No other local districts I'm aware of are doing traditional lunches where kids congregate and socialize - they'll be eating at their desks. My kids will be with friends after school, too - seeing friends is not really a compelling reason to send your kids to school, they're allowed to socialize outside of school.My kids have lunch, my kids will be with friends before and after school... perhaps this isn't the case elsewhere, but I'm glad it is the case here.
Online teaching isn't better than in person. But it is better than hybrid situations where some of the students are online and some are in person, which is what pretty much every school near me is going with. If your schools are reopening fully then most of what I've said won't apply. But if your town allows families to opt for online instruction , then your kid will be sitting in a classroom but not getting the full benefit of being there because the teacher has to tailor their instruction to half the class that is remote. And of course the kids at home are getting a worse deal because the teacher isn't fully committed to providing a remote educational experience. It sucks both ways.I can't imagine online zoom meetings being better than in person for teaching and learning. It wasn't for them in the Spring, it hasn't been for me in the last several months.
Ignoratio Elenchi said:So adults wearing masks in an operating room is analogous to kids learning social development while sitting in rows with masks on? Come on now.
Yes, of course.. that is what I do in the OR. Teach and learn. Again, would be news to everyone I interact with face to face, that it didn't count because masks or which direction we were facing. Come on now.
Our district has no lunch (they're doing half days in-person). No other local districts I'm aware of are doing traditional lunches where kids congregate and socialize - they'll be eating at their desks. My kids will be with friends after school, too - seeing friends is not really a compelling reason to send your kids to school, they're allowed to socialize outside of school.
Our kids will have lunch - they are working out exactly how (changed a couple times), they will walk to and from school with friends.. and seeing friends/making new ones is THE compelling reason for me. They can learn algebra and spanish from a book.
Online teaching isn't better than in person. But it is better than hybrid situations where some of the students are online and some are in person, which is what pretty much every school near me is going with. If your schools are reopening fully then most of what I've said won't apply. But if your town allows families to opt for online instruction , then your kid will be sitting in a classroom but not getting the full benefit of being there because the teacher has to tailor their instruction to half the class that is remote. And of course the kids at home are getting a worse deal because the teacher isn't fully committed to providing a remote educational experience. It sucks both ways.
Of course, online instruction is expected to improve over the spring, since that was all cobbled together with no notice. Remains to be seen how effectively schools have used this time, however.
Like I said, maybe your school is reopening fully with few changes from pre-COVID life, in which case my comments don't really apply. If not, I don't think people fully appreciate the impact of a lot of the changes that are being implemented. At least from the plans I've seen around here, being in school is not going to provide the better education and the mental health benefits for kids people are touting. It's gonna suck.
No doubt there will be struggles. If you have that expectation, it can't suck. You expect it, adapt, go forward.
It's not. In fact, so far as I know ... it's hardly the case anywhere.matuski said:My kids have lunch, my kids will be with friends before and after school... perhaps this isn't the case elsewhere, but I'm glad it is the case here.
The thing is ... in-person learning the way it was done pre-COVID is not available in a lot of (most?) places. And it's not going to be available anytime soon, I'd wager.I can't imagine online zoom meetings being better than in person for teaching and learning. It wasn't for them in the Spring, it hasn't been for me in the last several months. But maybe that is personal preference.
I'll have to look into the lunch thing again, but as of Monday, lunch was occuring outside class to my understanding. If kids aren't getting to socialize before and after in most places (was never really on campus in the first place here), I think that is a shame. Like I said.. my kids can learn with books, they can't learn life through zoom and xbox.It's not. In fact, so far as I know ... it's hardly the case anywhere.
The thing is ... in-person learning the way it was done pre-COVID is not available in a lot of (most?) places. And it's not going to be available anytime soon, I'd wager.
They closed one of the High Schools for the next 2.5 weeks.update:
In the six days that Cherokee County schools have been in session, the north Georgia district has had to direct 826 students to quarantine due to exposure to COVID-19, along with 42 teachers.
I take it that you are teaching surgical techniques and skills. Did you start those lessons in the OR? If noit, this statement in no way applies to classroom learning with masks on.Yes, of course.. that is what I do in the OR. Teach and learn. Again, would be news to everyone I interact with face to face, that it didn't count because masks or which direction we were facing. Come on now.
It's such an absurd analogy, I started to respond and decided not to bother.I take it that you are teaching surgical techniques and skills. Did you start those lessons in the OR? If noit, this statement in no way applies to classroom learning with masks on.
For the sake of the patients, I sure hope surgical skills are taught someplace other than the OR before moving to the lab section of instruction.
Yes, most often. I avoid doctors offices like the plague.I take it that you are teaching surgical techniques and skills. Did you start those lessons in the OR? If noit, this statement in no way applies to classroom learning with masks on.
For the sake of the patients, I sure hope surgical skills are taught someplace other than the OR before moving to the lab section of instruction.
It was your definition.It's such an absurd analogy, I started to respond and decided not to bother.
What I think my son’s school is doing is bringing food to the classrooms from the cafeteria. I don’t know if they’re having typical school hot meals or if they’re going to be doing what they call “bagged lunch” (sandwich, fruit, etc.). Whatever they’re serving, it’s projected to create a lot of garbage — they went over the post-classroom-lunch garbage protocols in detail during the parents’ Zoom orientation.If they were going to be forced to eat in the classroom, that would be effed up. Walk to cafeteria, get your tray of food, walk back to classrooom, eat, walk back to cafeteria to empty tray?
In some districts, the plan is to use more teachers (believe it or not) so that one teacher can teach in person while the partner teacher teaches the exact same thing at the same pace to the online segment. No idea if it will work but at least its a better thought than splitting everything up and failing like you guys say.Craig_MiamiFL said:Absolutely positively no question IMO
And there's no question parents will be complaining (shocker!) what a cluster it'll be.
What I have seen taking place so far in our area is that, because of the socialization issues like you mention AND because a lot of teachers used to take their lunch when their kids are out of the classroom, in the lunch room, the schools are rotating:Confirmed our kids will have "normal" lunches, spaced out at 3 ft diagonals at the tables (each side 6 feet apart, staggered to opposite side of table). No masks (distancing!).
If they were going to be forced to eat in the classroom, that would be effed up. Walk to cafeteria, get your tray of food, walk back to classrooom, eat, walk back to cafeteria to empty tray?
I'm expecting lots of class time (and lunch?) outdoors. I am curious about what they will do for recess though. None of my contacts have any Intel, so it leaves me skeptical they will even have it but as long as sports are on I think that'll be enough physical social activity.I don't know what you were expecting.
I would be shocked if they don't implement fun activities throughout the day to break it up. You don't have to be touching each other to have social interactions.
It was your definition.
I agreed that it was absurd.
this is what we’re expecting in NJ as well. I’ve said this before but it’s frustrating that we couldn’t have spent the last four months planning the best possible remote experience for everyone, and instead wasted months on hybrid plans that are crappy at best and that seem increasingly likely to not even be implemented after all.teacher mom, like my wife, is convinced that all of this will be for naught- that the hybrid plan won't work, and/or the city won't be able to even meet the requirements before hand to allow in-school at all, and that NYC will end up going 100% remote either after a cluster-#### opening, or before school even starts.
I have no idea how the NYC schools are going to pull any of this off. The only people on campus are DOE employees (i.e the principals, building supervisors, etc). Our mom's group (runs the PTA, on CEC, running for borough President) all think this is going 100% virtual fairly quickly.fwiw... in NYC public schools lunch will be a "working lunch" in the class room. the day is going to be shorter as a result. The kids aren't leaving their classrooms all day other than to go to the bathroom. so no masks in their little classrooms while eating lunch instead. makes perfect sense. I guess this is to minimize hallway traffic. just don't understand whey they don't set up some tents outside and get this kids some fresh air, if at least while needing to take their masks off.
and again- NYC is using the cohort system (school dependent on how many). Our daughter's elementary school will be one regular full day per week, and one rotated day- likely every other week. Our principal took heat from the NY Post, and ultimately from the chancellor, because he made this clear to parents early on rather than just letting the "idea" of cohorts not be figured out in real terms (something Carranza, the chancellor, does with regularity- makes public statements to the media, which the principals then have to explain to the parent-body without having any answers or options about HOW to make these policy moves work).
wife and kids met some friends at the local pool yesterday- other mom is a NYC public school 4th grade teacher (who worked her ### off in the spring with all live teaching and rapid response to kids and parents). teacher mom, like my wife, is convinced that all of this will be for naught- that the hybrid plan won't work, and/or the city won't be able to even meet the requirements before hand to allow in-school at all, and that NYC will end up going 100% remote either after a cluster-#### opening, or before school even starts.
Considering how minimal inschool actually will be here (5-7 days per month), I keep assuming the schools have been focusing on the virtual side of things to improve on the Spring.this is what we’re expecting in NJ as well. I’ve said this before but it’s frustrating that we couldn’t have spent the last four months planning the best possible remote experience for everyone, and instead wasted months on hybrid plans that are crappy at best and that seem increasingly likely to not even be implemented after all.
Yeah, I know the administrators (there are a lot of them) in my district have worked twice as much since March than they normally would have. All spring my principal said he was at school like 12 hours a day. He ended up stepping down as principal and taking a teaching role at the end of the school year saying that it was simply too much for him (his wife also has cancer) and he can't spend the whole next year living like that.and fwiw- most of the principals I've been hearing about here in NYC took no time off this summer... working, acting, reacting, to the daily roller-coaster that Covid has thrown at us. of course, my son's principal took a month off- most of July- when all of this #### needed addressing. Thanks Katie!
This cannot be emphasized enough. In some environments it's a horrible idea to return in any capacity right now. In some the risk is low. And in others it depends. If our kids were in the local public school and they were doing in-person (they're not) then considering sending them back never would have entered our minds. We do private though. The class sizes are small. As I mentioned above, they will be outside at least some of the time. We know a lot of the parents and from what we've seen this summer there have been no mask issues with their kids. The number of cases in our county have been trending well over the last few weeks and while the raw # of cases are 2nd highest in the state (13,734) on a relative basis we're aligned with most of the state at about 1% of our population. If the school decides to pull the plug on in-person between now and the start then I get it, but barring new information sending them back passes our risk assessment.I think the last page and "discussion" is a good reminder that it's really unwise to use an individual's anecdotal experience to judge what should be going on all over the country. It's wise to remember that every county could be different...maybe even schools within the county.
Will that even be possible this year?She also wants to go out for school government and ASB so I know she wants to be back at school too.
I don't know. But if its a small group and they distance I am not sure why they couldn't. Or if things improve enough to allow it....Will that even be possible this year?
Why?The school where my middle two kids go just closed for the rest of the month - only took 8 days!
I have to assume the fall online experience will be much better than the spring when it was ended suddenlyConsidering how minimal inschool actually will be here (5-7 days per month), I keep assuming the schools have been focusing on the virtual side of things to improve on the Spring.
but we all know what assuming means... especially with a nightmarish beurocrazy like the NYC DOE.
If the plan all along was to remain all-online in the fall, that would be a reasonable assumption. If the school spent the summer working out hybrid plans where teachers would simultaneously provide online and in-person instruction, there’s a decent chance it’ll be as bad or worse.I have to assume the fall online experience will be much better than the spring when it was ended suddenly
We are here now. It is and it will be (worse).If the plan all along was to remain all-online in the fall, that would be a reasonable assumption. If the school spent the summer working out hybrid plans where teachers would simultaneously provide online and in-person instruction, there’s a decent chance it’ll be as bad or worse.