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The Great 2020 All Time Movie Draft- The judging is heavily biased against me. It’s a hoax! Fake news.


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41 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Musicals 

1 pt  Guys and Dolls:  Nobody had it higher than 5 points. Nathan Detroit is great but Brando ruins the movie. 

I like this movie (due to the bolded), but can't disagree with its place on this list. After I picked it late, I realized I made a big mistake, leaving Fiddler on the Roof out there. Heck, even 1776 (which I like but nobody else seems to) might have done better. 

Nice job in a super-strong category.

Edited by jwb
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Just now, jwb said:

I like this movie (due to the bolded), but can't disagree with its place on this list. After I picked it, I realized I made a big mistake, leaving Fiddler on the Roof out there. Heck, even 1776 (which I like but nobody else seems to) might have done better. 

Nice job in a super-strong category.

The other judges threw out a bunch of movies they seemed to think could/should have been drafted:

Gigi, An American in Paris, Fiddler on the Roof, On the Town, The King and I, Little Shop of Horrors, The Music Man , A Star is Born (Judy Garland version), Yankee Doodle Dandy, Jesus Christ Superstar, Showboat, Victor/Victoria and Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. 

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Just now, jwb said:

I like this movie (due to the bolded), but can't disagree with its place on this list. After I picked it, I realized I made a big mistake, leaving Fiddler on the Roof out there. Heck, even 1776 (which I like but nobody else seems to) might have done better. 

Looking at the way the judging shook out ... one that it looks like might've cracked double digits is An American in Paris. I also agree with your Fiddler on the Roof call. Musicals are very, very deep.

West Side Story is an all-timer, but it garnered negative reactions in this thread after it was taken. I thought that might have been a harbinger of a middling rank ... but I guess none of the judges were the ones commenting.

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Just now, Ilov80s said:

The other judges threw out a bunch of movies they seemed to think could/should have been drafted:

Gigi, An American in Paris, Fiddler on the Roof, On the Town, The King and I, Little Shop of Horrors, The Music Man , A Star is Born (Judy Garland version), Yankee Doodle Dandy, Jesus Christ Superstar, Showboat, Victor/Victoria and Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. 

Looking back ... I wonder if it would have made sense to have broken Musicals down by era(s) somehow.

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1 minute ago, Doug B said:

Looking at the way the judging shook out ... one that it looks like might've cracked double digits is An American in Paris. I also agree with your Fiddler on the Roof call. Musicals are very, very deep.

West Side Story is an all-timer, but it garnered negative reactions in this thread after it was taken. I thought that might have been a harbinger of a middling rank ... but I guess none of the judges were the ones commenting.

I am glad American in Paris was passed over though I am surprised. It's got Gene Kelly and it won Best Picture. I think it's pretty mediocre until the final 15 minute dance scene at the end.

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1 minute ago, Ilov80s said:

The other judges threw out a bunch of movies they seemed to think could/should have been drafted:

Gigi, An American in Paris, Fiddler on the Roof, On the Town, The King and I, Little Shop of Horrors, The Music Man , A Star is Born (Judy Garland version), Yankee Doodle Dandy, Jesus Christ Superstar, Showboat, Victor/Victoria and Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. 

Gally almost had me talked into drafting Rocky Horror Picture Show. I guess it getting passed over by the judges too means it wouldn't have outscored Chicago.

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2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Looking at the way the judging shook out ... one that it looks like might've cracked double digits is An American in Paris. I also agree with your Fiddler on the Roof call. Musicals are very, very deep.

West Side Story is an all-timer, but it garnered negative reactions in this thread after it was taken. I thought that might have been a harbinger of a middling rank ... but I guess none of the judges were the ones commenting.

The music, songs, dancing and production value are incredible in West Side Story and I think given that this was a musical category, that stuff got extra weight from the judges even if they didn't love the movie. 

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Just now, Charlie Steiner said:

Gally almost had me talked into drafting Rocky Horror Picture Show. I guess it getting passed over by the judges too means it wouldn't have outscored Chicago.

I think it got taken for another category. 

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4 minutes ago, Doug B said:

West Side Story is an all-timer, but it garnered negative reactions in this thread after it was taken. I thought that might have been a harbinger of a middling rank ... but I guess none of the judges were the ones commenting.

My musical knowledge was very limited before the draft and only a little better since then.  I've watched Singin' in the Rain and West Side Story since we started - it's remarkable to me how much I liked Singin' in the Rain (would watch again under the right circumstances) and how much I didn't enjoy West Side Story. 

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1 minute ago, Ocram said:

My musical knowledge was very limited before the draft and only a little better since then.  I've watched Singin' in the Rain and West Side Story since we started - it's remarkable to me how much I liked Singin' in the Rain (would watch again under the right circumstances) and how much I didn't enjoy West Side Story. 

I would be curious to see how general musical movie rankings would differ if ranked by musical fans vs rankings from non-musical fans

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Standings

  1. Dr. Octopus--217
  2. ilov80s--207
  3. Andy Dufresne--200
  4. higgins--199
  5. triplemania--198
  6. timschochet--197
  7. joffer--185
  8. Karma Police--178
  9. TheWinz--169
  10. Gally Steiner--163
  11. EYLive--162
  12. tuffnutt--162
  13. Doug B--156
  14. Mrs. Rannous--156
  15. jwb--155
  16. mphtrilogy--154
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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

@krista4 and @Ilov80s -  I need to write down and save the movies I was supposed to watch from you two.  

80s - I believe it was Battle of Algiers and ?

krista - it was Z and ?

I don’t remember.

53 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Musicals 

 

3 pts The Umbrellas of Cherbourg:  It was dinged for having too much music in it. 

:lmao: 

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22 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I guess I should be happy that Beauty & The Beast scored where it did.

But I can't really bring myself to see My Fair Lady, Cabaret, and Singin' In the Rain. 

And I think The Sound of Music is almost unwatchable. Grease is okay. 

be grateful - i was the 1st asked to judge the cat and you would have received last place had i accepted. cartoons are not musicals

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4 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I would be curious to see how general musical movie rankings would differ if ranked by musical fans vs rankings from non-musical fans

I think part of it too is the "type" of musicals.  I LOVE Mary Poppins (I know it was selected for a different category) and I like Sound of Music.  I think all the Disney/Pixar movies are great and on some level folks are looking at those are musicals.  But ignoring those I wouldn't consider myself a musicals person - but if the story is good, the music is good then I'll most likely like it.  I thought West Side Story had the story part but to me the music was not good and borderline corny.

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2 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

be grateful - i was the 1st asked to judge the cat and you would have received last place had i accepted. cartoons are not musicals

Yeah, I kind of alluded to it in my post just now.  I wasn't paying attention but was Beauty and the Best and Lion King the live action versions?  If not, then I was kind of surprised by that myself.

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19 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Looking back ... I wonder if it would have made sense to have broken Musicals down by era(s) somehow.

Yea, it's strong enough to carry 2 categories. Pre/post 1970 or whatnot. 

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Now that I think about it - if it is the animations that were selected then I don't get Lion King.  Wasn't some of the music just played during the movie and not necessarily sung by one of the characters?  I'm going off memory so could be wrong.  Seemed like Beauty and the Beast all the songs were sung by the characters so I could see how that should "count".

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29 minutes ago, Bracie Smathers said:

It is one of the best adapted scripts ever by Brian Helgeland.  Helgeland and director Kurtis Hanson hit back-to-back home runs of their respective careers in this movie.

Not just a modern stylized neo-noir thriller with one of the best gun battles on screen I consider it the best noir movie ever made.  It is different from other noir films in that is uses natural lighting unlike a traditional noir movie.  It has an accent on the modern.  The entire Night Owl episode, the interrogation scene, the good-cop/bad-cop bracing of the DA, the Formosa bar confrontation with Johnny Stompinato and Lana Turner, Bloody Christmas, etc...

Impeccably acted, James Cromwell is fantastic.  Russell Crow and Guy Pierce made their US debuts in this film and Crow became a star from his leading role.  Kim Basinger (drool) earned an Academy Award for her performance, and this may be the best acting of Kevin Spacey's career.  Haven't even mentioned David Stratharain or Danny DeVito or the many others in what is a true ensemble cast bereft of sympathetic characters.  Its almost like a combination of a studio and independent picture.  A character piece with studio backing.  

The soundtrack is perfect with time period hits and minimal scoring.  I love the music of this movie.  

It is the only rough cut that came to producer Aron Milchan  where he was so blown away he said it was perfect as is.

Obviously I think this is deserving of a higher ranking.  

Fair enough. I thought I treated it pretty well. As I indicated, I may have let my personal bias for Big Lebowski inflate its ranking too much, but I don't see any metric or way that I would have slid LA Confidential into the top 5. 

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17 minutes ago, Ocram said:

it's remarkable to me how much I liked Singin' in the Rain 

Not to me - it's a remarkable movie. Unless one absolutely hates musicals, I have a hard time envisioning someone not enjoying this. 

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Just now, jwb said:

Not to me - it's a remarkable movie. Unless one absolutely hates musicals, I have a hard time envisioning someone not enjoying this. 

I don't think I made my point well - I was more thinking that those two ranked 1 and 2 in the category - I will never watch West Side Story again but I'd watch Singin' in the Rain.  I guess on some level I've had a similar reaction to other categories - it just stood out to me because I had never seen either of thos two, had always thought I should and then finally did and had very opposite reactions to the two.

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5 minutes ago, Ocram said:

I think part of it too is the "type" of musicals.  I LOVE Mary Poppins (I know it was selected for a different category) and I like Sound of Music.  I think all the Disney/Pixar movies are great and on some level folks are looking at those are musicals.  But ignoring those I wouldn't consider myself a musicals person - but if the story is good, the music is good then I'll most likely like it.  I thought West Side Story had the story part but to me the music was not good and borderline corny.

Oh wow, I actually feel the opposite. The story is just whatever but the songs and music are the strongest part. Of course the movie takes place in an alternate version of our world. It's not meant to be a true hardcore look at street gangs so I know what you mean by corny. Sounds like you just didn't but into their world, which is key for musicals. 

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

Why aren't Disney movies musicals?

I would think that the delineation (for me at least) would be who is singing the song.  Toy Story for example, is not a musical because it just has original music but it's not sung by the characters.  I know that several Lion King songs are sung by the characters but I was thinking "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" is just played during the movie and not sung by a character.

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4 minutes ago, Zow said:

Fair enough. I thought I treated it pretty well. As I indicated, I may have let my personal bias for Big Lebowski inflate its ranking too much, but I don't see any metric or way that I would have slid LA Confidential into the top 5. 

I think in 50 years some of the others won't travel very well but LA Confidential will be part of the curriculum of film schools.

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5 minutes ago, Ocram said:

Now that I think about it - if it is the animations that were selected then I don't get Lion King.  Wasn't some of the music just played during the movie and not necessarily sung by one of the characters?  I'm going off memory so could be wrong.  Seemed like Beauty and the Beast all the songs were sung by the characters so I could see how that should "count".

Some of the judges pointed out they felt some movies were more movies with music than musicals. However, all of the movies taken are listed as musicals when you look at various sites and they all have multiple scenes of characters in the movie singing songs so I didn't give movies bonus points for having more songs than another movie. 

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3 minutes ago, Ocram said:

I would think that the delineation (for me at least) would be who is singing the song.  Toy Story for example, is not a musical because it just has original music but it's not sung by the characters.  I know that several Lion King songs are sung by the characters but I was thinking "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" is just played during the movie and not sung by a character.

I believe Can you Feel the Love Tonight is sung by characters during the movie and then the Elton John version plays over the end credits. 

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2 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I believe Can you Feel the Love Tonight is sung by characters during the movie and then the Elton John version plays over the end credits. 

Yep, I figured I was wrong - I was going off memory and I haven't see it in probably 15 years.

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1 minute ago, Ocram said:

I would think that the delineation (for me at least) would be who is singing the song.  Toy Story for example, is not a musical because it just has original music but it's not sung by the characters.  I know that several Lion King songs are sung by the characters but I was thinking "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" is just played during the movie and not sung by a character.

Not all actors sang in musicals and it spared us something like this:

I absolutely adore Audrey Hepburn but.... Woof.

To compare/contrast what made it into the film.  LINK

My Fair Lady is a legit musical even if Hepburn doesn't sing a note and thank God for sparing us her voice.

 

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43 minutes ago, Bracie Smathers said:

It is one of the best adapted scripts ever by Brian Helgeland.  Helgeland and director Kurtis Hanson hit back-to-back home runs of their respective careers in this movie.

Not just a modern stylized neo-noir thriller with one of the best gun battles on screen I consider it the best noir movie ever made.  It is different from other noir films in that is uses natural lighting unlike a traditional noir movie.  It has an accent on the modern.  The entire Night Owl episode, the interrogation scene, the good-cop/bad-cop bracing of the DA, the Formosa bar confrontation with Johnny Stompinato and Lana Turner, Bloody Christmas, etc...

Impeccably acted, James Cromwell is fantastic.  Russell Crow and Guy Pierce made their US debuts in this film and Crow became a star from his leading role.  Kim Basinger (drool) earned an Academy Award for her performance, and this may be the best acting of Kevin Spacey's career.  Haven't even mentioned David Stratharain or Danny DeVito or the many others in what is a true ensemble cast bereft of sympathetic characters.  Its almost like a combination of a studio and independent picture.  A character piece with studio backing.  

The soundtrack is perfect with time period hits and minimal scoring.  I love the music of this movie.  

It is the only rough cut that came to producer Aron Milchan  where he was so blown away he said it was perfect as is.

Obviously I think this is deserving of a higher ranking.  

Agree 100%

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1 minute ago, Bracie Smathers said:

Not all actors sang in musicals and it spared us something like this:

I absolutely adore Audrey Hepburn but.... Woof.

To compare/contrast what made it into the film.  LINK

My Fair Lady is a legit musical even if Hepburn doesn't sing a note and thank God for sparing us her voice.

 

That's pretty common. I am sure many of our musicals have dubbed voices. West Side Story, Umbrellas, Sound of Music for sure. 

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Why aren't Disney movies musicals?

for the same reason you dont set up a screen on a Broadway stage to show how you'd do musical numbers when not limited by space. one of the hardest things to do in art is to establish the narrative, emotional & visual logic for people to break into song & dance. THAT is the art form.

my cousin Rob was the 7th director over 25 years signed to direct Chicago onscreen. he was the first to successfully crack the logic of presenting the great Kander/Ebb/Fosse musical as a movie by establishing Roxie Hart's imagination as the metier of presentation. seems simple now, but some pretty famous directors didnt get it. Rob did. that's the work. drawing lions and singing candlesticks to present your songs are entertainment but simply not the same art form.

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33 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

The music, songs, dancing and production value are incredible in West Side Story and I think given that this was a musical category, that stuff got extra weight from the judges even if they didn't love the movie. 

I agree with this but the one thing...it's way too long.

When I watch it, I always wish that they would have cut out a lesser song or 2.

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6 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

When did a little too much LDS back at Berekely in the 60's, everything is seen through a really different lens.  

Too many Latter-Day Saints at Berekley? Mon Dieu!

Edited by rockaction
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11 minutes ago, Bracie Smathers said:

I think in 50 years some of the others won't travel very well but LA Confidential will be part of the curriculum of film schools.

You may be right. I do promise you that I did the best I could. 

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I hear what Wikkid is saying but ignoring that debate for just a minute....

I don't know if I've ever payed attention to the fact that virtually all of the Disney movies are musicals but none of the Pixar movies are.  Just find that kind of odd that I never noticed it before.

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11 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

When did a little too much LDS back at Berekely in the 60's, everything is seen through a really different lens.  

now, finding cultural coathooks upon which to hang the views of others with greater understanding so one neednt deal with one's ignorance or lack of perspective - that's THE 21st century artform

Edited by wikkidpissah
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1 minute ago, Ocram said:

I hear what Wikkid is saying but ignoring that debate for just a minute....

I don't know if I've ever payed attention to the fact that virtually all of the Disney movies are musicals but none of the Pixar movies are.  Just find that kind of odd that I never noticed it before.

Hmmm...deep thoughts. I'd never noticed that, either. Maybe because the Disney aspect of it isn't the creative impetus element of Pixar, but its distribution wing. Maybe? I'm not sure exactly what Disney's role with Pixar is, but if it's like the music industry, one can be a production and distribution company.

I'm talking out my ###, but maybe that has something to do with it. 

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Just now, rockaction said:

Hmmm...deep thoughts. I'd never noticed that, either. Maybe because the Disney aspect of it isn't the creative impetus element of Pixar, but its distribution wing. Maybe? I'm not sure exactly what Disney's role with Pixar is, but if it's like the music industry, one can be a production and distribution company.

I'm talking out my ###, but maybe that has something to do with it. 

Yeah - I don't really know either - just something I never even noticed until we started having this discussion.

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23 minutes ago, jwb said:

Yea, it's strong enough to carry 2 categories. Pre/post 1970 or whatnot. 

That's touches on something else ... I thought that the Legends/Modern categories broke down more cleanly at 1970 more than 1980. But that was only apparent to me in retrospect.

For a TV Draft ... it might be more like 1980 if there is an "Old"/"Modern" cut off. Gotta think on that some.

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13 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

for the same reason you dont set up a screen on a Broadway stage to show how you'd do musical numbers when not limited by space. one of the hardest things to do in art is to establish the narrative, emotional & visual logic for people to break into song & dance. THAT is the art form.

my cousin Rob was the 7th director over 25 years signed to direct Chicago onscreen. he was the first to successfully crack the logic of presenting the great Kander/Ebb/Fosse musical as a movie by establishing Roxie Hart's imagination as the metier of presentation. seems simple now, but some pretty famous directors didnt get it. Rob did. that's the work. drawing lions and singing candlesticks to present your songs are entertainment but simply not the same art form.

All kidding aside, I disagree with this.

I think the mediums stand on their own. Judging a musical movie based on how well it translated the stage version just seems arbitrary to me. We don't judge how well a musical did based on how well it replicated the movie its based on. Fame the stage production wouldn't be judged upon how well it replicated Fame the movie. 

Edited by Andy Dufresne
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1 hour ago, Dr. Octopus said:
1 hour ago, Ilov80s said:

6 pts Willy Wonka: One voter had it dead last, the other two both gave it 9 points. One of the movies that received the "was it a musical or movie with music in it" tag. 

 

I don't mind the ranking - wasn't counting on a great score - but no offense towards that judge but the bolded makes no sense AT ALL.

It's listed as a musical everywhere and there's 13 songs in a 100 minute movie. 

I agree with you 100%. The movie has singing by the characters all in it, and is a musical movie. It was so creative and fun. I remember when it came out and the theaters were selling Wonka bars with golden tickets in them. Veruca Salt would rip someone a new ####### on the weak score. :boxing:

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3 minutes ago, simey said:

I agree with you 100%. The movie has singing by the characters all in it, and is a musical movie. It was so creative and fun. I remember when it came out and the theaters were selling Wonka bars with golden tickets in them. Veruca Salt would rip someone a new ####### on the weak score. :boxing:

This movie was one of the most surprising things of the draft. I thought it was a universally loved classic but it seems like a lot of posters here aren't big fans. It received a last place vote. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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4 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Wonka is definitely a musical. For some reason, it's my dad's favorite movie.

I don't particularly care for it. Charlie broke the rules. He really should have received NOTHING. 

Wonka doesn't strike me as a straight and narrow, by the book guy. 

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12 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

This movie was one of the most surprising things of the draft. I thought it was a universally loved classic but it seems like a lot of posters here aren't big fans. It received a last place vote. 

I'll take it over Chicago any time.

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