For the last time, leave me out of this. I answered the question asked, that is it.
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***OFFICIAL CYDY/Leronlimab Thread*** (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter This_Guy
- Start date
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
If this was legitimately a P&D:
A) Couldn’t have been done better, maybe one of the best ever.
B) Everyone affiliated with Cytodyn will be in jail. All employees and legal counsel. NP would be facing Enron like prosecution... Honestly, just to be a ####, I’d testify as a victim.
They’re like the gang who couldn’t shoot straight, we know this. We also know the importance of CCR5 and how the MOA works in blocking it. The drug has a ton of potential, and in combination therapies could be a blockbuster. Nothing short of seeing it be ineffective at treating Covid will get me to believe it truly is a P&D. We have a simple endpoint, death.
A) Couldn’t have been done better, maybe one of the best ever.
B) Everyone affiliated with Cytodyn will be in jail. All employees and legal counsel. NP would be facing Enron like prosecution... Honestly, just to be a ####, I’d testify as a victim.
They’re like the gang who couldn’t shoot straight, we know this. We also know the importance of CCR5 and how the MOA works in blocking it. The drug has a ton of potential, and in combination therapies could be a blockbuster. Nothing short of seeing it be ineffective at treating Covid will get me to believe it truly is a P&D. We have a simple endpoint, death.
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adonis
Footballguy
Appreciate the answer. Really looking for some balance to our/my thinking.
When we take the points you make, which most are good ones, and we weigh them against the things the company has going for it in the "not a pump and dump" category, most of us I believe end up thinking the argument is stronger in the not category than the "is" category.
Some back and forth on why you think that's the wrong judgment would be helpful, even if you're not necessarily a full believer in the position...some healthy devils advocacy could be useful.
I think you can chalk up quite a few of the items you listed to an inexperienced management team who has a star drug on their hands but without the experience to run a company to develop it. The bad PR they pay for, can't get financing because the head of a biotech company is a mechanical engineer who exaggerates, which leads to missed expectations/deadlines, and requires that he goes and fundraises to non-traditional places.
A big portion of that could be chalked up to the leadership being inexperienced, and possibly ill-suited to having a blockbuster drug on their hands.
I'll mention my concern with Bruce Patterson is that he's financially invested in Cytodyn being successful as his company is heavily invested in the RANTES stuff, and pimping leronlimab (while honestly the results look good) also works in his favor. Now, he's aligned his company with these assays and this pathway because he believes in it, i'm fairly certain, but that could mean he has a conflict of interest in terms of objectively evaluating leronlimab.
adonis
Footballguy
Out of curiosity, how well established in the literature is this? I know we hear it said a lot, and it makes sense, and BP champions it...but published paper explaining the pathway and cause/effect, and leronlimab's role in it...it's all kinda a theory right now promoted only by a few people...or am I missing it?
djmich
Footballguy
Thats really interesting, can't comment is not something you usually say unless there is a reason you cannot (like nda). I mean why not just say i dont think its worth the risk for your friend, or unproven but some potential, or don't know anything about it...
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Don Hutson
Footballguy
It could be a pump and dump company that got lucky buying a great drug. Completely serendipitous because there is no way NP knew what he was doing when he had CytoDyn buy Pro-140.
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adonis
Footballguy
Have the results been published in any reputable journals, been peer reviewed, etc? Again, the explanation sounds good to me...but do other experts in the field agree that the evidence is there to justify the pathway being considered established science?
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I’ve said this multiple times too:
NP is a lucky moron who stepped in a big pile of ####... Kinda been my theory about him.
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Bluto Blutarsky
Footballguy
You have said nothing about why a pump and dump would be signing up patients at Baylor for trial. You just deflect and say that you've answered it, but to my knowledge you have not.
You're knowledge is welcome, but please be specific instead of dodging certain questions.
adonis
Footballguy
It is interesting that the company really started to gain share when it was promoted, by NP and BP that it would be applicable to Covid-19. Until then, the promise of HIV was still a solid shot, a good chance, with promising results, but it wasn't a short term star.
In comes Covid, with a non-scientifically validated explanation for how leronlimab can calm the cytokine storm and reduce deaths, with some anecdotal evidence that it did just that, and you have a 30 cent stock go up to $10, and now back to mid $5's.
I don't fault anyone for having a healthy amount of skepticism about the stock. If it weren't for Bruce Patterson, who again seems to have a bit of a conflict of interest in the success of leronlimab (although I'm not calling into question his genuine belief it will be great), I'd likely not be invested in the company.
So logically that makes BP's involvement an incredibly important piece in my investment here. Yet, he has no published paper on this yet but one is in the works. Everything is in the works with this company. That's what makes these claims effective. In the absence of clear evidence, it's easy to doubt.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
It’s traded hundreds of millions of shares this year... The pumpers had a clear and easy exit, why is it still over $5?
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I also don’t recall seeing a response to the data out of UCLA that I just posted from Dr Yang. I’m sorry if one has been posted, I just don’t recall seeing it.
adonis
Footballguy
An argument can be made that NP expects it to go higher. It explains his intense focus on share prices, shorters, etc. If the science is so good, the drug is so good, why is he so focused on the stock price?
That'd be part of the explanation. I think it could also be argued that if he thinks he can get listed on NASDAQ, the value of the company would be considerably higher...and that's what he's pushing for.
Capella
Footballguy
PennState-JD
Footballguy
I feel like every single one of these items could be attributed to a small company, less than 20 employees, trying to make a go of things. Wouldn’t most of those correlate to low cash flow which is the nature of all start up biotech until they can monetize their product? I am having a hard time seeing a pump and dump on behalf of management unless it is a long con. They could have been cashed out by now with many millions and off into the sunset. I saw somewhere there are 450 potential therapeutic entries for Covid. I think it is fair to say the vast majority will not pan out for a lot of reasons, but the pump and dump strikes me as unlikely at this point.
adonis
Footballguy
Yang showed some preliminary good data. It was said he was going to publish his results in the NEJM but ended up just being a contributing co-author with a mention of leronlimab as an aside in the paper. His research also referenced BP's in his presentation.
Still, they were good results...but no publication from it.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Him and anyone affiliated with him could’ve exited with a 9 figure profit already, not a bad haul for a con artist, I think pushing it further would be highly dangerous, no?
I’ve watched a lunatic CEO fight with shorts for the better part of the last 5 years... As much as I bash Tesla, I’m forever grateful I’m not one of those shorts. Could be a personality thing, who knows.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
So because it wasn’t in the NEJM am I supposed to believe it didn’t happen? Serious question.
adonis
Footballguy
Yeah, just putting a counter point out there.
To me, Nader is a true believer. He deals with this with such passion, with such a personal stake, that I find it hard to believe it's all just for money. Could be...he could be a really good con-man, but he also could really believe his pitch that what he's doing can make a difference in the world for a ton of people, Covid-19 victims, HIV victims, and he's setting a pace that's causing mistakes but he's busting ### to try to make it happen.
The latter is my take, but I can't blame someone if they doubt him. I see many of their points.
Thanks. I’m happy to have conversation and explain this point of view. Again I didn’t even say it was my point of view.
But it is the reason this company and drug is under the radar.
I do need to step away from my phone for a bit.
adonis
Footballguy
No, it was an Adam F. point he made that Nader, in another unfulfilled promise, said that Yang would be publishing the data on the trial in that journal. Didn't happen, but it was going to be evidence of the efficacy of the drug.
To this point, there have been time after time of promises to justify faith in the drug, and to this point none have come true.
Refuse to file, results not coming out on efficacy on the date many were expecting, BP's paper hasn't been published, Yang's paper didn't happen, we're still waiting on the s/c results...it's just an endless list of promises with a significant number of them not being delivered on. I can't fault folks for questioning the company. Frankly, a fair amount of this is chickens coming home to roost.
Don Hutson
Footballguy
Otto Yang is a infectious disease expert. Any patient would be lucky to have him and his patients probably do well with or without leronlimab. But it is encouraging that such a brilliant mind believes that leronlimab might be a special drug.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
adonis
Footballguy
Appreciate it. I think it's always good to hear out opposing views even if you disagree. I've never been invested in a company that had as many question marks floating around it as this one does. But there's just something compelling about the science and the data, that causes me to turn my back on the questions for the time. Maybe through more discussion, those questions I have reduce in size as results come in, but I could be convinced to not invest at all if better points are made as to why I shouldn't.
To be honest, all of the questions is one reason I didn't invest in Tesla early on and look where that got me
. In technology companies, in large part you're investing in the management team and their ability to execute on a vision. In a drug company, it's flipped more. You have a drug, and it's either good or it's not...regardless of the leadership. Their incompetence could lead it to never get approved, or to not apply it to the right disease, or to miss opportunities.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
He'll send a fully-armed short attack to remind us of his love.
Ba-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-dy-da-da
Ba-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-dy-da-da
adonis
Footballguy
chet
Footballguy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
adonis
Footballguy
New additions to the scientific advisory board:
Dr. Gero Hutter - first doctor to functionally cure HIV through an innovative procedure
Dr. Hope Rugo
Lishomwa (Lish) Ndhlovu (holy crap was it hard to figure this persons name out phoenetically)
Eric Mininberg
Dr. Jonah B. Sacha
I'm not going to go into the full resume for these folks, but look them up. They're pretty impressive. Again, not a group a "pump and dump" company would bring together.
Dr. Gero Hutter - first doctor to functionally cure HIV through an innovative procedure
Dr. Hope Rugo
Lishomwa (Lish) Ndhlovu (holy crap was it hard to figure this persons name out phoenetically)
Eric Mininberg
Dr. Jonah B. Sacha
I'm not going to go into the full resume for these folks, but look them up. They're pretty impressive. Again, not a group a "pump and dump" company would bring together.
adonis
Footballguy
Here's a link to today's webinar:
https://edge.media-server.com/mmc/p/rdofnvf9/dimode/ondemand/preview_key/f7f3e9b393aab168625b9674f06976fa08e43ca43a7034240e2b7480f438950b
In case someone wants to experience it again. There's some solid information here, some fluff, but worth listening if you haven't.
https://edge.media-server.com/mmc/p/rdofnvf9/dimode/ondemand/preview_key/f7f3e9b393aab168625b9674f06976fa08e43ca43a7034240e2b7480f438950b
In case someone wants to experience it again. There's some solid information here, some fluff, but worth listening if you haven't.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Guy comes in here for no reason at all again to rile everyone up and then backs off as usual. "Hey, I'm just the messenger." He doesn't say don't shoot me though, because he knows he's the firing the rubber bullets.
There's definitely a short raid or two coming before it hits NASDAQ. There's no other reason for him to come in here.
I saw this type of crap in 2000 on the MB's back then.
There's definitely a short raid or two coming before it hits NASDAQ. There's no other reason for him to come in here.
I saw this type of crap in 2000 on the MB's back then.
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Don't Noonan
Footballguy
adonis
Footballguy
There's too much group think with this stock, imo. I think there are some risks that we're not properly evaluating, and talking with a person who represents a different POV can be enlightening.
It's the equivalent of shorting our investor sentiment in here, but it helps come to an accurate assessment of the company, just like shorters in a normal market can help keep share prices representative of the market value by capitalizing on times where investors get out ahead of actual value. If everyone is a buyer, when expectations get inflated, or bad news is ignored or set aside, it's conversation shorters like Whyatt who can help keep things in perspective, or who can make points to be considered, and either reject or accept them.
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Steve Polychronopolous
Footballguy
Whyatt, do you mind telling us again what your background is?
cosjobs
Footballguy
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
I don't know her well enough for her to say these things, and she may be bound for reasons we don't understand. She mentioned working on remdesivir for five years after we had our exchange on Cytodyn.
I'll add that I've read reports that leronlimab is being tested with remdesivir (all may come from a common source, which may or may not be factual; I haven't tracked it down). That may explain why she can't say anything.
adonis
Footballguy
Zegras11
Footballguy
yes.
Sara M
She's lost a little weight from that pick. Looks way better than that. The pic below her profile is more of what she looks like now.
Ash cuts my hair. (click on her pic)
https://www.hasbrouckhouse.com/home
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I posted the below in the other thread back in April.
Since I offered my opinion on CYDY I have followed the company closely. I’m also interested in and following COVID treatments.
My initial (high) skepticism resulted from:
I worked on development of a CCR5 Antagonist 20 or so years ago. Most big Pharma had a molecule (or more). It was described with so much promise, applications, etc. and then they almost all went away.
I support new drug commercialization now, I’m currently supporting a new drug which many are hopeful will change treatment methods worldwide for HIV when commercialized. To support this, I have access to what our folks believe is the competitive marketplace going forward.
Cancer is getting big investment these days and progress is, in a traditional view, remarkable. For instance positive news on 2 new treatments for triple negative breast cancer have been announced already in 2020. I’ve mentioned 1200 clinical trials underway for Keytruda and Keytruda+.
My view of CYDY as a underpowered company with an interesting old drug, but quite frankly, looking for an indication, trying to show some efficacy, but finding essentially zero takers among big pharma. And to be real here, that’s what single product companies all want, because drug development and commercialization is expensive.
Please don’t view this as an attack on the company or posters here. I’m not a short but have read their reports which I think all investors should for perspective. I have read IHub and seeking alpha posts and am surprised by the rampant cheerleading. I think a balanced evaluation of risks are needed for good investing and I do think I have some interesting perspective to offer for the company.
Around this time CYDY started with Coronavirus claims. Because of the stock pumping nature of CYDY, I was very skeptical. Interestingly enough, CYDY’s drug appears to have clinical benefits.
Since I offered my opinion on CYDY I have followed the company closely. I’m also interested in and following COVID treatments.
My initial (high) skepticism resulted from:
I worked on development of a CCR5 Antagonist 20 or so years ago. Most big Pharma had a molecule (or more). It was described with so much promise, applications, etc. and then they almost all went away.
I support new drug commercialization now, I’m currently supporting a new drug which many are hopeful will change treatment methods worldwide for HIV when commercialized. To support this, I have access to what our folks believe is the competitive marketplace going forward.
Cancer is getting big investment these days and progress is, in a traditional view, remarkable. For instance positive news on 2 new treatments for triple negative breast cancer have been announced already in 2020. I’ve mentioned 1200 clinical trials underway for Keytruda and Keytruda+.
My view of CYDY as a underpowered company with an interesting old drug, but quite frankly, looking for an indication, trying to show some efficacy, but finding essentially zero takers among big pharma. And to be real here, that’s what single product companies all want, because drug development and commercialization is expensive.
Please don’t view this as an attack on the company or posters here. I’m not a short but have read their reports which I think all investors should for perspective. I have read IHub and seeking alpha posts and am surprised by the rampant cheerleading. I think a balanced evaluation of risks are needed for good investing and I do think I have some interesting perspective to offer for the company.
Around this time CYDY started with Coronavirus claims. Because of the stock pumping nature of CYDY, I was very skeptical. Interestingly enough, CYDY’s drug appears to have clinical benefits.
Welcome to the normal side. JFC, his first post talked about how he was looking to short the stock. He disappeared when the price was moving well and then appears after the short attack. His “source” at that time was the well know shorts. He’s given no details that you couldn’t Google but people want to make sure we have alternative views. If it was even remotely objective, sure but it’s so obvious to me what his motives are. He appears to be getting more desperate.
I've displayed plenty of worry and nervousness and doubts, but dude is basically regurgitating AF at this point. If it walks and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck.
My view really hasn’t changed.
There are many other treatments, not just Remdesivir, being used right now, and at least a few have efficacy. Dexamethasone for one. Understand Leronlimab is in competition with other options.
The death rate has dropped pretty dramatically for Covid, and I’m pretty sure treatments are part of the reason.
There are many other treatments, not just Remdesivir, being used right now, and at least a few have efficacy. Dexamethasone for one. Understand Leronlimab is in competition with other options.
The death rate has dropped pretty dramatically for Covid, and I’m pretty sure treatments are part of the reason.
adonis
Footballguy
Seems a completely reasonable viewpoint.
Any more insight on why the CCR5 antagonists of 2 decades ago went away? (Isn't that around the time that Cytodyne bought this drug - maybe 15 ago?). Could it have been that the science just wasn't there at the time, or the tools/assay/etc to commercialize? Other drugs more promising?
Suggesting CYDY is a company looking for an indication seems correct. With HIV it seems they had something solid, m/m breast cancer as well, and now Covid. The drug appears to have clinical benefits in multiple categories, including one of the world's most pressing need categories. Based on previous results, it seems like you might be tempted to put some of the earlier skepticism aside and say that they may have actually found something...no?
adonis
Footballguy
The ages of the infected has dropped too. Many of the most vulnerable are much more protected than they were at the outset, while the kids are out partying and spreading it among themselves. If Covid starts hitting nursing homes again and elderly folks like it did early on, you'll see the death toll rise again. That group is considerably more protected right now than in March.
What do you think his motive is, to be on the wrong side of history? Do you think he might have more insight than you on how the industry works?
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I believe it could have clinical benefits with less side effects than competing drugs. With people dying, isn't this what we want? Not only that, but we can make money in doing so.
I fully understand the skepticism, there isn't a single poster here who wouldn't vote NP right out if we were on the board. This isn't a Yahoo message board, we're all smart successful adults. We see the potential for major clinical benefits here and those are supported by renowned doctors at very reputable institutions with first hand experience administering the drug in life and death situations. Furthermore, I agree with Dr. Patterson's take; this is the perfect drug with its MOA to stockpile for a frontline defense against an unknown pathogen.
I've state my theory before, NP is an idiot, a hustler, a used car salesman... He most likely had no clue what Pro 140 was when they bought it (nor do I have any idea how we wound up as CEO... I should probably dig into that, maybe you know how?). Nonetheless, he is one lucky idiot who stepped into a pile of ####. A drug that could have major clinical benefits, the MOA makes tons of sense. If their severe trial shows benefit (and I believe it will), this stock goes to $20-$25, imo. At that juncture, being a real company, I believe we'll get a shakeup and bring in real leadership. I agree with your cult like take on the stock, but I feel it's because a lot of the smarter investors can weed through the NP nonsense and see the forest for the trees. Also, I'm curious, what type of outcome do you anticipate from their severe trial?
chet
Footballguy
Why does he consistently lie and mislead people re: CYDY? Why is he seemingly obsessed with such a small company? Why is he risking his reputation by continuing to be wrong in his evaluation?
adonis
Footballguy
He might, but he's clearly lied several times about what NP has said or done. Clear lies.
He loses most credibility for those lies, and he, possibly like yourself, may have a conflict of interest in how you see leronlimab as he has ties to a competitor, and you say you're supporting a drug commercialization in the HIV space, could be in competition with leronlimab as well. Haven't seen you directly lie, but it does push the limits of reasonability to call the company a pump and dump given all the relevant information. Seems a bit of an unjustified emotional attack on them, even if it's just something you're saying others are saying.
Leronlimab is very likely part of an effective combination therapy for HIV, but that doesn’t mean it will be a commercial success.
