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***Official Protest-RIOT Thread*** Police Officers fleeing Seattle and urban areas. (1 Viewer)

Maybe some will listen to her.  I think most of the people that support justice for her son (I'm not the judge just describing what they want) do think rioting is bad.

The problem, as always, is that the most/many do not create the issues.  Its the few bad cops, the few rioters, the few #######s.  In a country of 100's millions, a few on any percentage basis is for these purposes alot.

Doesn't matter what side you are on (although if you are on a side you are probably guilty of taking the few and using it to maliciously paint a broad stroke to support your argument).
I agree with most of what you are saying here.

Where I will disagree is about using the "few" bad apples in police uniforms to paint a broad stroke. Here's why:

1) If it was as simple as just a few bad apples, then change would be much, much easier. Departments could work on rooting out those individuals and improve their police force.

2) It's not the few officers, though. It's the system and current mentality that is prevalent on almost every force that both helps create those bad apples and allows them to remain. 

3) It's how virtually every time an officer acts poorly, there are other "good" officers around who can't/don't/won't intervene and speak up. And when they do, THEY are the ones that are ultimately punished and lose their jobs for being a rat or going against their own. Again, the system.

4) It's how when officers are found to be "bad apples", they face limited consequences and even find jobs elsewhere as it's swept under the rug (see the Catholic Church for another example of this). Again, the system.

As a result, the truly good cops suffer. I don't think anyone here thinks there are no good cops or only a few. But those good cops are ultimately powerless in changing things themselves. Much like politics, if the top is corrupt, it doesn't matter how much they try to change. We keep seeing police chiefs give interviews where it's clear they just don't get it and are more interested in taking care of their own.

We need sweeping and broad police reform. With respect to lots of different aspects.

--People aren't protesting Derek Chauvin. They are protesting the system that still had him on the force and that didn't even arrest him for days until the pressure mounted.

--People aren't protesting the 3 guys who killed Arbery. They are protesting the system that didn't even arrest them for almost 3 months only because a video came out publicly and the state got involved.

--People aren't protesting the specific cops that killed Breonna Taylor. They are protesting the system where cops can do that and have no consequences when an innocent person is killed.

 
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I agree with most of what you are saying here.

Where I will disagree is about using the "few" bad apples in police uniforms to paint a broad stroke. Here's why:

1) If it was as simple as just a few bad apples, then change would be much, much easier. Departments could work on rooting out those individuals and improve their police force.

2) It's not the few officers, though. It's the system and current mentality that is prevalent on almost every force that both helps create those bad apples and allows them to remain. 

3) It's how virtually every time an officer acts poorly, there are other "good" officers around who can't/don't/won't intervene and speak up. And when they do, THEY are the ones that are ultimately punished and lose their jobs for being a rat or going against their own. Again, the system.

4) It's how when officers are found to be "bad apples", they face limited consequences and even find jobs elsewhere as it's swept under the rug (see the Catholic Church for another example of this). Again, the system.

As a result, the truly good cops suffer. I don't think anyone here thinks there are no good cops or only a few. But those good cops are ultimately powerless in changing things themselves. Much like politics, if the top is corrupt, it doesn't matter how much they try to change. We keep seeing police chiefs give interviews where it's clear they just don't get it and are more interested in taking care of their own.

We need sweeping and broad police reform. With respect to lots of different aspects.

--People aren't protesting Derek Chauvin. They are protesting the system that still had him on the force and that didn't even arrest him for days until the pressure mounted.

--People aren't protesting the 3 guys who killed Arbery. They are protesting the system that didn't even arrest them for almost 3 months only because a video came out publicly and the state got involved.

--People aren't protesting the specific cops that killed Breonna Taylor. They are protesting the system where cops can do that and have no consequences when an innocent person is killed.
Normally we don't really agree on much, but I think this is spot on. There's a devil in the details, though. It might mean that the right has to concede that we cannot abide personal immunity for heinous acts on the job (which means putting aside the virtue of law and order for sheer power's sake). It may mean that the left has to come to grips with the nature of police unions (which means putting aside their love of unions, especially public ones, a shibboleth of the left).

It remains to be seen whether we can do this. The sides are so polarized. 

 
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Normally we don't really agree on much, but I think this is spot on. There's a devil in the details, though. It might mean that the right has to concede that we cannot abide personal immunity for heinous acts on the job (which means putting aside the virtue of law and order for sheer power's sake). It may mean that the left has to come to grips with the nature of police unions (which means putting aside their love of unions, especially public ones, a shibboleth of the left).

It remains to be seen whether we can do this. The sides are so polarized. 
The first thing is address the Police Union...that entity allows the bad apples to continue being bad appples...my company has a Department that is Unionized and it is amazing the hoops you have to go thru to address a problem...if it wasn't so sad it would almost be comical because it is like dealing with 10 year olds.

 
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The first thing is address the Police Union...that entity allows the bad apples to continue being bad appples...my company has a Department that is Unionized and it is amazing the hoops you have to go thru to address a problem...if it wasn't so sad it would almost comical because it is like dealing with 10 year olds.
It would seem to me to start there. That's where the culture of policing for the citizen gets corrupted, in my opinion. But both sides need to concede before we're able to have a discussion across aisles for the good of the Republic. Immunity isn't helping breed better police tactics, it's actively discouraging it. Perhaps in good faith both left and right could see the problem with each issue, but I'm not holding my breath.

 
I agree with most of what you are saying here.

Where I will disagree is about using the "few" bad apples in police uniforms to paint a broad stroke. Here's why:

1) If it was as simple as just a few bad apples, then change would be much, much easier. Departments could work on rooting out those individuals and improve their police force.

2) It's not the few officers, though. It's the system and current mentality that is prevalent on almost every force that both helps create those bad apples and allows them to remain. 

3) It's how virtually every time an officer acts poorly, there are other "good" officers around who can't/don't/won't intervene and speak up. And when they do, THEY are the ones that are ultimately punished and lose their jobs for being a rat or going against their own. Again, the system.

4) It's how when officers are found to be "bad apples", they face limited consequences and even find jobs elsewhere as it's swept under the rug (see the Catholic Church for another example of this). Again, the system.

As a result, the truly good cops suffer. I don't think anyone here thinks there are no good cops or only a few. But those good cops are ultimately powerless in changing things themselves. Much like politics, if the top is corrupt, it doesn't matter how much they try to change. We keep seeing police chiefs give interviews where it's clear they just don't get it and are more interested in taking care of their own.

We need sweeping and broad police reform. With respect to lots of different aspects.

--People aren't protesting Derek Chauvin. They are protesting the system that still had him on the force and that didn't even arrest him for days until the pressure mounted.

--People aren't protesting the 3 guys who killed Arbery. They are protesting the system that didn't even arrest them for almost 3 months only because a video came out publicly and the state got involved.

--People aren't protesting the specific cops that killed Breonna Taylor. They are protesting the system where cops can do that and have no consequences when an innocent person is killed.
:goodposting:   Really well said here.

 
Normally we don't really agree on much, but I think this is spot on. There's a devil in the details, though. It might mean that the right has to concede that we cannot abide personal immunity for heinous acts on the job (which means putting aside the virtue of law and order for sheer power's sake). It may mean that the left has to come to grips with the nature of police unions (which means putting aside their love of unions, especially public ones, a shibboleth of the left).

It remains to be seen whether we can do this. The sides are so polarized. 
I posted this in another thread here. I agree with most of the things on this list.

From the comment section of Doc Rivers speech on YouTube.  I agree with virtually all of this:

1. All monetary awards to citizens as a result of "police misconduct" convictions should be paid out of the offending department's pension funds. You can be sure that if police pension funds were threatened, you would see a "clean-up" in a hurry. Get the taxpayer off the hook for rogue cops.

2. Investigating themselves is a conflict of interest! Prohibit "internal affairs" investigations for all cases but those involving disputes between police officers. All investigations involving the public should be handled at the state level by an impartial board of 5 in which 3 members are NOT affiliated with police.

3. Eliminate both "absolute" and "qualified" immunity for all public officials--not just police . Include prosecutors, judges, other court officials, CPS and building code enforcers.

4. Require all public officials (Police) to be "bonded" and carry "malpractice insurance" as a condition of employment. No bond or malpractice insurance--no job. This would stop cops resigning and being hired by a nearby department. Criminal complaints would follow them and make them unable to be insured.

5. Increase police training to be a 38 week program instead of the 20 week program currently. Include psychological evaluations.

6. Prosecutors must be subordinate to the grand jury. Withholding evidence that could prove or disprove misconduct by public officials should be a prosecuted as a felony.

7. Require body and dash cams to be used at all times. No citizen interaction permitted without functioning A/V equipment. Obtain equipment that cannot be turned off. All interactions between officials and citizens must be put on the internet "cloud" and must be publicly accessible. Tampering with equipment should result in permanent dismissal and charges of obstruction.

8. Establish a 50-state publicly-searchable database of police, fire and public officials who should NEVER hold a position requiring the "public trust". Eliminate secrecy laws. Complaints , transcripts, final dispositions and disciplinary proceeding against officers, will be made public.

9. Eliminate all public-sector unions. Especially police and firefighter unions. Unions are not needed in the public sector, as WE, the taxpayers pay their salaries and benefits.

10. Enforce a NATIONAL gun policy. All Americans that qualify should be allowed to own and carry any weapon which police and domestic agents possess. Defense is a natural right. Citizens deserve the same firepower as domestic government agents.

11. Eliminate no knock warrants. Racial profiling and codify Use of Force ( particularly choke holds and escalation of deadly force)

12. Police should come when called like fire departments and ambulances. Police must get out among the people. Walk / bike a beat and not circle like sharks or wolves ready to pounce. Their primary focus should be high profile violent crimes, not raising revenue. These solutions would go a long way in curbing the abuses that presently exist.

 
I posted this in another thread here. I agree with most of the things on this list.
I read it and have been following yours and BassNBrews conversation. It's a very good start, though I see your problem with the pension.

I certainly agree with some of the propositions. If I had my druthers, I would make sure citizen oversight is a large factor in hiring/firing decisions of officers, not just oversight regarding misconduct cases. 

 
I would suggest that we peel back the demand for abolishing public unions as that will never fly with a large section of the political/legal/PAC entities that deal with legislation because of our lapse into pluralism. It's not going to happen. I'd love to see it, but it's a non-starter for so many politically-minded folks and probably contravenes settled labor law. 

But I love the call for the end of no-knock raids, immunities at every level, and at least addressing the disproportionate power that public unions wield in the criminal justice system.

Come to think of it, it sounds like a libertarian-right fusionist tract you've posted. It has all the markings of one.

 
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Here's a good thread that breaks down several videos of the Rittenhouse shootings.  In particular, it does a nice job showing what happened with the first shooting, which I found impossible to sort out originally.
Looks like there's the possibility, given the gun shot from the left, that Rittenhouse might have thought the guy chasing him was shooting at him. The fact that the police were supporting and encouraging this participation is really sickening.

 
Also, with regard to my comments about people protesting the system, not the individuals, the same holds true in reverse.

My problem isn't with the looters/violent rioters specifically.  I hope they all get caught and get arrested (whether they are part of the actual BLM movement or not and I know there's some of both).

My problem is with BLM Chicago coming out and supporting those actions.  And my problem is with the rest of BLM being silent on what happened in Chicago and not coming out against it.  As an organization, they've lost my support as a result (and others here I'm sure).

So it goes both ways.  There's ALWAYS going to be "bad" apples on any side and with any situation.  In most work areas or whatever else, there's a system in place to get rid of those "bad apples".  Someone underperforming at work?  Management usually should and does get rid of that person.  Or disciplines them.  The problem becomes when that system doesn't hold up their end of the bargain.  It's no different than the #MeToo movement.  People aren't up in arms about specific abuses.  They are upset and vocal now because of how prevalent it was while being covered up and almost never penalized.  Or the Catholic Church scandals.  Or anything else when people in power allow abuses to continue.  BLM is falling into that same category.  They need to hold themselves up to that same standard.  The thing about BLM, unfortunately, is that it really isn't an organized group and they are also the only thing we have as of right now trying to make change.  It's still the lesser of 2 evils at this point.

All I know is that SOMETHING has to be done and why I still support the protests themselves and the ideas behind trying to improve racial inequality.  There are no good answers and no quick fixes.  But hopefully we keep on with this.  And big kudos to the Milwaukee Bucks for getting it started at their level.  I don't know how much good it will accomplish, but I think it has a chance.

Apologies for the rambling post.

 
Looks like there's the possibility, given the gun shot from the left, that Rittenhouse might have thought the guy chasing him was shooting at him. The fact that the police were supporting and encouraging this participation is really sickening.
Yeah...that police chief needs to be canned.  Between how his comments played out the other day and now his officers seemingly allowing and encouraging militia is not going to help with any public trust.

The State should step in here IMO...

 
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The fact that the police were supporting and encouraging this participation is really sickening.
Yes indeed.  They aided and abetted this confrontation.  Instead of de-escalating the situation, they thanked and commended armed individuals for roaming the streets.  Ungood.   

 
So there was rioting in Minneapolis again overnight.

The reason? A homicide suspect fatally shot himself...and people thought it was the police. 

Anyone want to buy a house in a nice Minneapolis suburb?
At this point it's an excuse to tear #### up and steal for the bulk of folks participating in these riots. 

 
At this point it's an excuse to tear #### up and steal for the bulk of folks participating in these riots. 
Maybe in the riots, but not the protests.  AFAIK, the situation in Portland was by and large a protest and not a riot.  I don't know about Kenosha. 

 
Peaceful

@The General this is the kind of stuff my sarcastic comment was mocking. We have seen this over and over. 
They need to drive the narrative to get those clicks.

It's what happens when we have un-checked capitalism.  The alternative is even scarier though (see China's state controlled media).

I would l just hope we become smarter as a society and able to discern that the truth lies somewhere in the middle and we aren't pushed to one side (extreme) or the other.  But that doesn't sell now does it.

 
So there was rioting in Minneapolis again overnight.

The reason? A homicide suspect fatally shot himself...and people thought it was the police. 

Anyone want to buy a house in a nice Minneapolis suburb?
I've had three friends buy their first houses in South Minneapolis in the last couple of months, and I'm looking for my first in the next year or so -- but from our last talk I think you live in a different area than I'm aiming for, lol. I will say, one of the only sad positives in all of this for Millenials in the Twin Cities is we might be able to finally buy the houses in the city if all of the older people move away. We're not going anywhere.

Agreed though, the stuff in downtown last night was sad and stupid. Rumors spread on social media that the man was killed by police, leading to the authorities immediately releasing graphic footage of the man killing himself to try to quell the unrest. Unfortunately I think it was a perfect reflection of what our country is right now -- a powder keg of disinformation and anger that most of us are hoping stays unlit until we can get the buffoon swinging a burning rope out of the area next election. I'm worried it is past the point of that being the difference, though. 

 
Our real estate friend told us that a little over 21% of houses in Minneapolis are for sale. 

Interpret that as you will. 
I'd question that number, personally. if you go to Zillow and zoom out to include all of Minneapolis + a good chunk of the first ring burbs, they claim there are ~1300 listings (and that catches a lot of St. Paul stuff too, just due to geography). There's no way that's 21% of houses in Minneapolis. I have heard from my agent that prices have basically never been higher in the market -- lots of boomers cashing out at the top, I'd bet. I'm still hoping to find that <300k moderately sized gem somewhere near Lake Nokomis, but I'm guessing I'm never going to fulfill that goal and will have to aim higher. Everything around there that's decent seems to be 350k+.

That's probably enough polluting the protest thread with MN real estate, though, apologies all.

 
Maybe in the riots, but not the protests.  AFAIK, the situation in Portland was by and large a protest and not a riot.  I don't know about Kenosha. 
Portland was a protest with some violence included.  Kenosha seems to be the same with videos of people going to car dealerships and destroying cars.  The looting where guys are looking for an excuse to steal anything they can is another level from that.   All of this takes away from the message of the peaceful protesters, unfortunately.

 
My first question would be what is the normal %? 

Follow up would be where are the people going, and why? 
Good (and I think correct) questions.

My initial reaction is instead of "white flight" it's now simply "urban flight". But I acknowledge that's likely biased and am willing to be proven wrong. 

 
While I understand your point, and in a vacuum agree with you, in this case your wrong.  These 2 things (the kid and the people who got shot) are not equal.  There’s no excuse or rational that makes it OK to justify what that kid did, none.  And trying to equalize the 2 is a dangerous line of thinking.  

 
If the protests and the associated violence continue Donald Trump is getting re-elected.

I don't think it will take long for Donald Trump to figure that out and I predict we'll see more inciting coming from him, not less. 

 
The first thing is address the Police Union...that entity allows the bad apples to continue being bad appples...my company has a Department that is Unionized and it is amazing the hoops you have to go thru to address a problem...if it wasn't so sad it would almost be comical because it is like dealing with 10 year olds.
It's not just the Police Union.  It is the postal union, teachers union, auto workers union, electrical union, etc.  They have all long out lived their purpose. 

 
If the protests and the associated violence continue Donald Trump is getting re-elected.

I don't think it will take long for Donald Trump to figure that out and I predict we'll see more inciting coming from him, not less. 
Which is pretty sad...that unrest, under his "leadership" will somehow aid his reelection is just nuts.  We need actual leadership at all levels of government.  And that current leadership all over is failing our citizens right now....every one of them.

 
Which is pretty sad...that unrest, under his "leadership" will somehow aid his reelection is just nuts.  We need actual leadership at all levels of government.  And that current leadership all over is failing our citizens right now....every one of them.
Right, but the way it works is he blames the "Democrat run cities" and voila, what is happening right now under his leadership transfers to "this is what it will be like in Joe Biden's America". Even though it is happening under Trump.

 
Right, but the way it works is he blames the "Democrat run cities" and voila, what is happening right now under his leadership transfers to "this is what it will be like in Joe Biden's America". Even though it is happening under Trump.
If the racism is systemic, as they claim, it has been going on for decades.  How is it mostly the fault of a man that has held a political office for less than four years?  It seems the people that have held political office for decades should shoulder most of the blame. :shrug:

 
Right, but the way it works is he blames the "Democrat run cities" and voila, what is happening right now under his leadership transfers to "this is what it will be like in Joe Biden's America". Even though it is happening under Trump.
Agreed...that is definitely how he will play it...Biden needs to play it as a country in need of leadership that it is lacking during these times.  And he can even do so without discussing Trump.  Just touch on how he will lead and be the person people can look to on such issues...that he is ready to take on the challenges facing this country and the difficult conversations and changes that need to happen.

 
If the racism is systemic, as they claim, it has been going on for decades.  How is it mostly the fault of a man that has held a political office for less than four years?  It seems the people that have held political office for decades should shoulder most of the blame. :shrug:
Because what if his reaction was: "What happened to Jacob Blake was wrong. It's systemic racism and I'm going to do everything I can to fix it. Please don't loot/riot, it is wrong."

What if his reaction to the 17 year old kid who came from out-of-state with a long gun and killed people was: "What that young man did was wrong. Nobody should ever do that. I condemn that behavior outright. I will do everything in my power to fix these injustices".

Instead, he said to both incidents: "We'll look into it".

Then he does the "Democrat run cities" thing and the "looting and rioting is coming to your suburb you suburban housewives should be scared!" thing. 

That's why this keeps getting worse under his watch. He doesn't want to fix it. He likes it. It helps him.  

 
How is he going to change anything? His entire career (40+ years) he has been a key cog in the political machine that created this systemically racist system. 
Cool, you are entitled to that opinion.  I disagree that he would not be able to listen and help affect change.

 
I agree with most of what you are saying here.

Where I will disagree is about using the "few" bad apples in police uniforms to paint a broad stroke. Here's why:

1) If it was as simple as just a few bad apples, then change would be much, much easier. Departments could work on rooting out those individuals and improve their police force.

2) It's not the few officers, though. It's the system and current mentality that is prevalent on almost every force that both helps create those bad apples and allows them to remain. 

3) It's how virtually every time an officer acts poorly, there are other "good" officers around who can't/don't/won't intervene and speak up. And when they do, THEY are the ones that are ultimately punished and lose their jobs for being a rat or going against their own. Again, the system.

4) It's how when officers are found to be "bad apples", they face limited consequences and even find jobs elsewhere as it's swept under the rug (see the Catholic Church for another example of this). Again, the system.

As a result, the truly good cops suffer. I don't think anyone here thinks there are no good cops or only a few. But those good cops are ultimately powerless in changing things themselves. Much like politics, if the top is corrupt, it doesn't matter how much they try to change. We keep seeing police chiefs give interviews where it's clear they just don't get it and are more interested in taking care of their own.

We need sweeping and broad police reform. With respect to lots of different aspects.

--People aren't protesting Derek Chauvin. They are protesting the system that still had him on the force and that didn't even arrest him for days until the pressure mounted.

--People aren't protesting the 3 guys who killed Arbery. They are protesting the system that didn't even arrest them for almost 3 months only because a video came out publicly and the state got involved.

--People aren't protesting the specific cops that killed Breonna Taylor. They are protesting the system where cops can do that and have no consequences when an innocent person is killed.
Hmmm, so yes I think we largely agree.  My point on a few, which I specifically called out, is that a few multiplied by exponential numbers ends up being meaningful.  That is the challenge in terms of coming to rational conclusions on topics like this.  Its hard to rationalize the moral logic that one death is unacceptable with the statistical improbability that it can be achieved (or something close to it).

In the case of "protestors" my point was that those that are rioting or in the minority...or the few.  However across the US and a population of 300M+ that adds up to some significant carnage even if "a few" percentage wise are the issue.  Its pretty easy for anyone to paint a broad brush on the protestors because we are dealing with such large numbers to begin with that even a relative few protestors being rioters is going to end up in a lot of end result evidence (great youtubes, tweets, media footage).

Similarly, my point on "the few" when it comes to bad policing is based on the fact that there are nearly 1M police officers in the US and >10M arrests per year.  Add on top how many interactions per year that don't result in arrests.  So my point on both is that when you are dealing with massive quantities math and morals are hard to reconcile.  4% bad police officers would be 40,000!  Assuming there are 2 interactions for each arrest....20 wrongful deaths would equate to .000001 per interaction.

In 2019 it is estimated there were 250,000 deaths from medical error.  That sounds insane to me.  As a percentage of medical procedures maybe it is statistically more explainable.

Anyways, please don't take this as "an excuse".  I think there is a lot that can and should be done to improve policing and my original point was actually in defense of the protestors.  I think the bigger challenge is that the statistics would seem to indicate we are never going to happy no matter how much we improve in policing.

 
Because what if his reaction was: "What happened to Jacob Blake was wrong. It's systemic racism and I'm going to do everything I can to fix it. Please don't loot/riot, it is wrong."

What if his reaction to the 17 year old kid who came from out-of-state with a long gun and killed people was: "What that young man did was wrong. Nobody should ever do that. I condemn that behavior outright. I will do everything in my power to fix these injustices".

Instead, he said to both incidents: "We'll look into it".

Then he does the "Democrat run cities" thing and the "looting and rioting is coming to your suburb you suburban housewives should be scared!" thing. 

That's why this keeps getting worse under his watch. He doesn't want to fix it. He likes it. It helps him.  
Time for a Beer Summit.  that will fix things.

 
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Right, but the way it works is he blames the "Democrat run cities" and voila, what is happening right now under his leadership transfers to "this is what it will be like in Joe Biden's America". Even though it is happening under Trump.


IDK man, I get that's the spin.  But eventually people are going to ask, "what are you going to do to stop this?".  I know he pretty much got into power by pointing his finger, but he's in the driver's seat now, either steer us in the proper fing direction or get you butt up out of the seat and let a new Capt set course.  

 

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