IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/786692-official-protest-thread-portland-police-declare-riot-zone/?do=findComment&comment=22913596So did the guy walking down the street with a gun.
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/786692-official-protest-thread-portland-police-declare-riot-zone/?do=findComment&comment=22913596So did the guy walking down the street with a gun.
I agree with most of what you are saying here.Maybe some will listen to her. I think most of the people that support justice for her son (I'm not the judge just describing what they want) do think rioting is bad.
The problem, as always, is that the most/many do not create the issues. Its the few bad cops, the few rioters, the few #######s. In a country of 100's millions, a few on any percentage basis is for these purposes alot.
Doesn't matter what side you are on (although if you are on a side you are probably guilty of taking the few and using it to maliciously paint a broad stroke to support your argument).
Normally we don't really agree on much, but I think this is spot on. There's a devil in the details, though. It might mean that the right has to concede that we cannot abide personal immunity for heinous acts on the job (which means putting aside the virtue of law and order for sheer power's sake). It may mean that the left has to come to grips with the nature of police unions (which means putting aside their love of unions, especially public ones, a shibboleth of the left).I agree with most of what you are saying here.
Where I will disagree is about using the "few" bad apples in police uniforms to paint a broad stroke. Here's why:
1) If it was as simple as just a few bad apples, then change would be much, much easier. Departments could work on rooting out those individuals and improve their police force.
2) It's not the few officers, though. It's the system and current mentality that is prevalent on almost every force that both helps create those bad apples and allows them to remain.
3) It's how virtually every time an officer acts poorly, there are other "good" officers around who can't/don't/won't intervene and speak up. And when they do, THEY are the ones that are ultimately punished and lose their jobs for being a rat or going against their own. Again, the system.
4) It's how when officers are found to be "bad apples", they face limited consequences and even find jobs elsewhere as it's swept under the rug (see the Catholic Church for another example of this). Again, the system.
As a result, the truly good cops suffer. I don't think anyone here thinks there are no good cops or only a few. But those good cops are ultimately powerless in changing things themselves. Much like politics, if the top is corrupt, it doesn't matter how much they try to change. We keep seeing police chiefs give interviews where it's clear they just don't get it and are more interested in taking care of their own.
We need sweeping and broad police reform. With respect to lots of different aspects.
--People aren't protesting Derek Chauvin. They are protesting the system that still had him on the force and that didn't even arrest him for days until the pressure mounted.
--People aren't protesting the 3 guys who killed Arbery. They are protesting the system that didn't even arrest them for almost 3 months only because a video came out publicly and the state got involved.
--People aren't protesting the specific cops that killed Breonna Taylor. They are protesting the system where cops can do that and have no consequences when an innocent person is killed.
The first thing is address the Police Union...that entity allows the bad apples to continue being bad appples...my company has a Department that is Unionized and it is amazing the hoops you have to go thru to address a problem...if it wasn't so sad it would almost be comical because it is like dealing with 10 year olds.Normally we don't really agree on much, but I think this is spot on. There's a devil in the details, though. It might mean that the right has to concede that we cannot abide personal immunity for heinous acts on the job (which means putting aside the virtue of law and order for sheer power's sake). It may mean that the left has to come to grips with the nature of police unions (which means putting aside their love of unions, especially public ones, a shibboleth of the left).
It remains to be seen whether we can do this. The sides are so polarized.
It would seem to me to start there. That's where the culture of policing for the citizen gets corrupted, in my opinion. But both sides need to concede before we're able to have a discussion across aisles for the good of the Republic. Immunity isn't helping breed better police tactics, it's actively discouraging it. Perhaps in good faith both left and right could see the problem with each issue, but I'm not holding my breath.The first thing is address the Police Union...that entity allows the bad apples to continue being bad appples...my company has a Department that is Unionized and it is amazing the hoops you have to go thru to address a problem...if it wasn't so sad it would almost comical because it is like dealing with 10 year olds.
Really well said here.I agree with most of what you are saying here.
Where I will disagree is about using the "few" bad apples in police uniforms to paint a broad stroke. Here's why:
1) If it was as simple as just a few bad apples, then change would be much, much easier. Departments could work on rooting out those individuals and improve their police force.
2) It's not the few officers, though. It's the system and current mentality that is prevalent on almost every force that both helps create those bad apples and allows them to remain.
3) It's how virtually every time an officer acts poorly, there are other "good" officers around who can't/don't/won't intervene and speak up. And when they do, THEY are the ones that are ultimately punished and lose their jobs for being a rat or going against their own. Again, the system.
4) It's how when officers are found to be "bad apples", they face limited consequences and even find jobs elsewhere as it's swept under the rug (see the Catholic Church for another example of this). Again, the system.
As a result, the truly good cops suffer. I don't think anyone here thinks there are no good cops or only a few. But those good cops are ultimately powerless in changing things themselves. Much like politics, if the top is corrupt, it doesn't matter how much they try to change. We keep seeing police chiefs give interviews where it's clear they just don't get it and are more interested in taking care of their own.
We need sweeping and broad police reform. With respect to lots of different aspects.
--People aren't protesting Derek Chauvin. They are protesting the system that still had him on the force and that didn't even arrest him for days until the pressure mounted.
--People aren't protesting the 3 guys who killed Arbery. They are protesting the system that didn't even arrest them for almost 3 months only because a video came out publicly and the state got involved.
--People aren't protesting the specific cops that killed Breonna Taylor. They are protesting the system where cops can do that and have no consequences when an innocent person is killed.
I posted this in another thread here. I agree with most of the things on this list.Normally we don't really agree on much, but I think this is spot on. There's a devil in the details, though. It might mean that the right has to concede that we cannot abide personal immunity for heinous acts on the job (which means putting aside the virtue of law and order for sheer power's sake). It may mean that the left has to come to grips with the nature of police unions (which means putting aside their love of unions, especially public ones, a shibboleth of the left).
It remains to be seen whether we can do this. The sides are so polarized.
I read it and have been following yours and BassNBrews conversation. It's a very good start, though I see your problem with the pension.I posted this in another thread here. I agree with most of the things on this list.
Looks like there's the possibility, given the gun shot from the left, that Rittenhouse might have thought the guy chasing him was shooting at him. The fact that the police were supporting and encouraging this participation is really sickening.Here's a good thread that breaks down several videos of the Rittenhouse shootings. In particular, it does a nice job showing what happened with the first shooting, which I found impossible to sort out originally.
Naw, you're on fire today.Also, with regard to my comments about people protesting the system, not the individuals, the same holds true in reverse.
Apologies for the rambling post.
Yeah...that police chief needs to be canned. Between how his comments played out the other day and now his officers seemingly allowing and encouraging militia is not going to help with any public trust.Looks like there's the possibility, given the gun shot from the left, that Rittenhouse might have thought the guy chasing him was shooting at him. The fact that the police were supporting and encouraging this participation is really sickening.
Yes indeed. They aided and abetted this confrontation. Instead of de-escalating the situation, they thanked and commended armed individuals for roaming the streets. Ungood.The fact that the police were supporting and encouraging this participation is really sickening.
At this point it's an excuse to tear #### up and steal for the bulk of folks participating in these riots.So there was rioting in Minneapolis again overnight.
The reason? A homicide suspect fatally shot himself...and people thought it was the police.
Anyone want to buy a house in a nice Minneapolis suburb?
Maybe in the riots, but not the protests. AFAIK, the situation in Portland was by and large a protest and not a riot. I don't know about Kenosha.At this point it's an excuse to tear #### up and steal for the bulk of folks participating in these riots.
Yep. I'm all for the organized protests.Maybe in the riots, but not the protests. AFAIK, the situation in Portland was by and large a protest and not a riot. I don't know about Kenosha.
They need to drive the narrative to get those clicks.Peaceful
@The General this is the kind of stuff my sarcastic comment was mocking. We have seen this over and over.
I've had three friends buy their first houses in South Minneapolis in the last couple of months, and I'm looking for my first in the next year or so -- but from our last talk I think you live in a different area than I'm aiming for, lol. I will say, one of the only sad positives in all of this for Millenials in the Twin Cities is we might be able to finally buy the houses in the city if all of the older people move away. We're not going anywhere.So there was rioting in Minneapolis again overnight.
The reason? A homicide suspect fatally shot himself...and people thought it was the police.
Anyone want to buy a house in a nice Minneapolis suburb?
I'd question that number, personally. if you go to Zillow and zoom out to include all of Minneapolis + a good chunk of the first ring burbs, they claim there are ~1300 listings (and that catches a lot of St. Paul stuff too, just due to geography). There's no way that's 21% of houses in Minneapolis. I have heard from my agent that prices have basically never been higher in the market -- lots of boomers cashing out at the top, I'd bet. I'm still hoping to find that <300k moderately sized gem somewhere near Lake Nokomis, but I'm guessing I'm never going to fulfill that goal and will have to aim higher. Everything around there that's decent seems to be 350k+.Our real estate friend told us that a little over 21% of houses in Minneapolis are for sale.
Interpret that as you will.
My first question would be what is the normal %?Our real estate friend told us that a little over 21% of houses in Minneapolis are for sale.
Interpret that as you will.
Portland was a protest with some violence included. Kenosha seems to be the same with videos of people going to car dealerships and destroying cars. The looting where guys are looking for an excuse to steal anything they can is another level from that. All of this takes away from the message of the peaceful protesters, unfortunately.Maybe in the riots, but not the protests. AFAIK, the situation in Portland was by and large a protest and not a riot. I don't know about Kenosha.
Good (and I think correct) questions.My first question would be what is the normal %?
Follow up would be where are the people going, and why?
Or maybe the data is incorrect.Good (and I think correct) questions.
My initial reaction is instead of "white flight" it's now simply "urban flight". But I acknowledge that's likely biased and am willing to be proven wrong.
Normally I trust but verify. This time I didn't - regretfully so. And I knew this lady is typically full of it too. Silly, silly me.Or maybe the data is incorrect.
Maybe there were 30% for sale at this time last year?Normally I trust but verify. This time I didn't - regretfully so. And I knew this lady is typically full of it too. Silly, silly me.
A quick look seems to say, if anything, that inventory is down compared to last year.
Mea culpa.
While I understand your point, and in a vacuum agree with you, in this case your wrong. These 2 things (the kid and the people who got shot) are not equal. There’s no excuse or rational that makes it OK to justify what that kid did, none. And trying to equalize the 2 is a dangerous line of thinking.
It's not just the Police Union. It is the postal union, teachers union, auto workers union, electrical union, etc. They have all long out lived their purpose.The first thing is address the Police Union...that entity allows the bad apples to continue being bad appples...my company has a Department that is Unionized and it is amazing the hoops you have to go thru to address a problem...if it wasn't so sad it would almost be comical because it is like dealing with 10 year olds.
Which is pretty sad...that unrest, under his "leadership" will somehow aid his reelection is just nuts. We need actual leadership at all levels of government. And that current leadership all over is failing our citizens right now....every one of them.If the protests and the associated violence continue Donald Trump is getting re-elected.
I don't think it will take long for Donald Trump to figure that out and I predict we'll see more inciting coming from him, not less.
Right, but the way it works is he blames the "Democrat run cities" and voila, what is happening right now under his leadership transfers to "this is what it will be like in Joe Biden's America". Even though it is happening under Trump.Which is pretty sad...that unrest, under his "leadership" will somehow aid his reelection is just nuts. We need actual leadership at all levels of government. And that current leadership all over is failing our citizens right now....every one of them.
If the racism is systemic, as they claim, it has been going on for decades. How is it mostly the fault of a man that has held a political office for less than four years? It seems the people that have held political office for decades should shoulder most of the blame.Right, but the way it works is he blames the "Democrat run cities" and voila, what is happening right now under his leadership transfers to "this is what it will be like in Joe Biden's America". Even though it is happening under Trump.
Agreed...that is definitely how he will play it...Biden needs to play it as a country in need of leadership that it is lacking during these times. And he can even do so without discussing Trump. Just touch on how he will lead and be the person people can look to on such issues...that he is ready to take on the challenges facing this country and the difficult conversations and changes that need to happen.Right, but the way it works is he blames the "Democrat run cities" and voila, what is happening right now under his leadership transfers to "this is what it will be like in Joe Biden's America". Even though it is happening under Trump.
How is he going to change anything? His entire career (40+ years) he has been a key cog in the political machine that created this systemically racist system.changes that need to happen.
Because what if his reaction was: "What happened to Jacob Blake was wrong. It's systemic racism and I'm going to do everything I can to fix it. Please don't loot/riot, it is wrong."If the racism is systemic, as they claim, it has been going on for decades. How is it mostly the fault of a man that has held a political office for less than four years? It seems the people that have held political office for decades should shoulder most of the blame.
Cool, you are entitled to that opinion. I disagree that he would not be able to listen and help affect change.How is he going to change anything? His entire career (40+ years) he has been a key cog in the political machine that created this systemically racist system.
He asked you how was he going to change anything?Cool, you are entitled to that opinion. I disagree that he would not be able to listen and help affect change.
Thanks. Yeah that is pretty dumb.Peaceful
@The General this is the kind of stuff my sarcastic comment was mocking. We have seen this over and over.
Hmmm, so yes I think we largely agree. My point on a few, which I specifically called out, is that a few multiplied by exponential numbers ends up being meaningful. That is the challenge in terms of coming to rational conclusions on topics like this. Its hard to rationalize the moral logic that one death is unacceptable with the statistical improbability that it can be achieved (or something close to it).I agree with most of what you are saying here.
Where I will disagree is about using the "few" bad apples in police uniforms to paint a broad stroke. Here's why:
1) If it was as simple as just a few bad apples, then change would be much, much easier. Departments could work on rooting out those individuals and improve their police force.
2) It's not the few officers, though. It's the system and current mentality that is prevalent on almost every force that both helps create those bad apples and allows them to remain.
3) It's how virtually every time an officer acts poorly, there are other "good" officers around who can't/don't/won't intervene and speak up. And when they do, THEY are the ones that are ultimately punished and lose their jobs for being a rat or going against their own. Again, the system.
4) It's how when officers are found to be "bad apples", they face limited consequences and even find jobs elsewhere as it's swept under the rug (see the Catholic Church for another example of this). Again, the system.
As a result, the truly good cops suffer. I don't think anyone here thinks there are no good cops or only a few. But those good cops are ultimately powerless in changing things themselves. Much like politics, if the top is corrupt, it doesn't matter how much they try to change. We keep seeing police chiefs give interviews where it's clear they just don't get it and are more interested in taking care of their own.
We need sweeping and broad police reform. With respect to lots of different aspects.
--People aren't protesting Derek Chauvin. They are protesting the system that still had him on the force and that didn't even arrest him for days until the pressure mounted.
--People aren't protesting the 3 guys who killed Arbery. They are protesting the system that didn't even arrest them for almost 3 months only because a video came out publicly and the state got involved.
--People aren't protesting the specific cops that killed Breonna Taylor. They are protesting the system where cops can do that and have no consequences when an innocent person is killed.
THIS time, it’s going to be differentHe asked you how was he going to change anything?
Police Chief in 2018 -- "Some lives aren't worth saving"Yeah...that police chief needs to be canned. Between how his comments played out the other day and now his officers seemingly allowing and encouraging militia is not going to help with any public trust.
The State should step in here IMO...
Time for a Beer Summit. that will fix things.Because what if his reaction was: "What happened to Jacob Blake was wrong. It's systemic racism and I'm going to do everything I can to fix it. Please don't loot/riot, it is wrong."
What if his reaction to the 17 year old kid who came from out-of-state with a long gun and killed people was: "What that young man did was wrong. Nobody should ever do that. I condemn that behavior outright. I will do everything in my power to fix these injustices".
Instead, he said to both incidents: "We'll look into it".
Then he does the "Democrat run cities" thing and the "looting and rioting is coming to your suburb you suburban housewives should be scared!" thing.
That's why this keeps getting worse under his watch. He doesn't want to fix it. He likes it. It helps him.
Right, but the way it works is he blames the "Democrat run cities" and voila, what is happening right now under his leadership transfers to "this is what it will be like in Joe Biden's America". Even though it is happening under Trump.