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If America is so great, why do we have so many bad people? (1 Viewer)

It's unfortunate that you still don't understand what the kneeling is about.  
Has it finally been decided?
Is there a consensus now?

You tell me...what is the sole reason for a National Flag and a National Anthem within the country?
When you protest those...what are you really protesting?

 
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Has it finally been decided?
Is there a consensus now?

You tell me...what is the sole reason for a National Flag and a National Anthem?
And when you protest those...what are you really protesting?
It's not about protesting the flag or the anthem, just like people who protest Goya or Starbucks probably love their black beans and Pumpkin Spice Lattes.

 
Summer Wheat said:
I actually like the kneeling with heads down much better than standing.  Looks so much more orderly and respectful than standing around.  Gives it more of a church like setting and feeling.  Hopefully everyone does it soon.
This is true, it actually is a symbol of reverence.  But if we change it to everyone kneels then it will be about trumps nationalism and flag worship and everyone will start sitting down or raising fists.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Petty drug offenses cant be a large % of people locked up.

If we look at state prisons, less than 16% of people locked up are for all drug offenses. 
Didn’t say it was - that was one example.  That’s why I would want to see a breakdown by offense.  Even with that I’ve already chimed in where I think that leads. Not condoning people breaking laws but rather answering Gator’s “why?” Question. I swear Gator has really gotten smarter.  Did somebody develop a strain of weed that boosts IQ?

 
Didn’t say it was - that was one example.  That’s why I would want to see a breakdown by offense.  Even with that I’ve already chimed in where I think that leads. Not condoning people breaking laws but rather answering Gator’s “why?” Question. I swear Gator has really gotten smarter.  Did somebody develop a strain of weed that boosts IQ?
@AAABatteries - sorry, know zip about the source, but when scanning through I saw a good pie graph breakdown HERE.  

 
I never understand this line of thinking. 

We have so many people incarcerated because we have so many criminals. 

Look at how many crimes go unreported and unsolved. 
Why does the USA have more criminals than other countries? Or are we just better at locking up more people?

 
I never understand this line of thinking. 

We have so many people incarcerated because we have so many criminals. 

Look at how many crimes go unreported and unsolved. 
Which part, that corporations profit off the prison system?  Like an business I would guess they would try their best not to lose customers,  so what we criminalize and for how long ties into that.  

What's the stat- we have 4.2% of the worlds population,  but 22% of the prison population? So it either makes sense that we are 5x worse than others or there is something else contributing to that huge discrepancy.  

 
We have more(more) violent criminals.

In other words we have more guns. Which means more gun violence. Which means more gun crime. 
Been thinking about this more, and my follow up question would be how much of this violence and gun crime is also tied up to drugs?  

I posted that pie chart up thread a bit, but I guess I didn't dig deeper into how they determine what category they log the data in for the purpose of that chart.  I would guess the worst of the offenses they are in for?  ie if a drug bust involved guns and violence, I would guess that would be what they are charged with vs. the possession of said drugs?   

Have states that have legalized seen a drop in some of these stats and crimes?

 
We have more(more) violent criminals.

In other words we have more guns. Which means more gun violence. Which means more gun crime. 


Lets say we didn't have any guns. Do you think our crime numbers would like similar to other developed countries? Or would we still have higher crime/incarceration rates?

 
It seems to me that many of our laws -- not just those for drugs -- have ludicrously long sentences attached to them. 
Here's what figures to be a more controversial example of what I'm talking about.  The gist of is is that these two nimrods threw a molotov cocktail into an empty, abandoned police car that had already been vandalized.  I don't think anyone disagrees that this is something that deserves punishment.  But they're looking at a minimum of 45 years in prison, which is for all intensive purposes a life-ending offense for a property crime that put nobody in danger.  That's insane.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lawyers-arrested-molotov-cocktail-nyc-protest.html

Edit: Typo.  I originally said that their mandatory minimum was 35 years.  It's actually 45 years.

 
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Here's what figures to be a more controversial example of what I'm talking about.  The gist of is is that these two nimrods threw a molotov cocktail into an empty, abandoned police car that had already been vandalized.  I don't think anyone disagrees that this is something that deserves punishment.  But they're looking at a minimum of 45 years in prison, which is for all intensive purposes a life-ending offense for a property crime that put nobody in danger.  That's insane.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lawyers-arrested-molotov-cocktail-nyc-protest.html

Edit: Typo.  I originally said that their mandatory minimum was 35 years.  It's actually 45 years.
What's insane is people vandalizing police cars.

 
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What's insane is people vandalizing police cars.


Here's what figures to be a more controversial example of what I'm talking about.  The gist of is is that these two nimrods threw a molotov cocktail into an empty, abandoned police car that had already been vandalized.  I don't think anyone disagrees that this is something that deserves punishment.  But they're looking at a minimum of 45 years in prison, which is for all intensive purposes a life-ending offense for a property crime that put nobody in danger.  That's insane.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lawyers-arrested-molotov-cocktail-nyc-protest.html

Edit: Typo.  I originally said that their mandatory minimum was 35 years.  It's actually 45 years.

 
Here's what figures to be a more controversial example of what I'm talking about.  The gist of is is that these two nimrods threw a molotov cocktail into an empty, abandoned police car that had already been vandalized.  I don't think anyone disagrees that this is something that deserves punishment.  But they're looking at a minimum of 45 years in prison, which is for all intensive purposes a life-ending offense for a property crime that put nobody in danger.  That's insane.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lawyers-arrested-molotov-cocktail-nyc-protest.html

Edit: Typo.  I originally said that their mandatory minimum was 35 years.  It's actually 45 years.
I missed your original post but I completely agree that our sentences are way too long. They are often absurd.

 
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Yep, they deserve whatever they get. Its common sense. Don't do this crap. Why do you justify it?
Not justifying it.  What they did was wrong, and it deserved some sort of punishment.  But 45 years is way, way too much by at least an order of magnitude.  

I'm citing this as an example precisely because I'm not really sympathetic to their cause and I strongly disagree with their methods.  It's easy to bookmark examples of people I like being treated badly.  It's more instructive to look for examples of people I don't like being treated badly.

 
Unbelievable what this forum supports. If I vandalized a cop car I deserve whatever  sentence they give me. People with common sense know not to do that.  

 
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Here's what figures to be a more controversial example of what I'm talking about.  The gist of is is that these two nimrods threw a molotov cocktail into an empty, abandoned police car that had already been vandalized.  I don't think anyone disagrees that this is something that deserves punishment.  But they're looking at a minimum of 45 years in prison, which is for all intensive purposes a life-ending offense for a property crime that put nobody in danger.  That's insane.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lawyers-arrested-molotov-cocktail-nyc-protest.html

Edit: Typo.  I originally said that their mandatory minimum was 35 years.  It's actually 45 years.
It is more to discourage future criminals.   I do agree though, a 20-25 year minimum would be enough.

 
Here's what figures to be a more controversial example of what I'm talking about.  The gist of is is that these two nimrods threw a molotov cocktail into an empty, abandoned police car that had already been vandalized.  I don't think anyone disagrees that this is something that deserves punishment.  But they're looking at a minimum of 45 years in prison, which is for all intensive purposes a life-ending offense for a property crime that put nobody in danger.  That's insane.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/lawyers-arrested-molotov-cocktail-nyc-protest.html

Edit: Typo.  I originally said that their mandatory minimum was 35 years.  It's actually 45 years.
Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time. So sad , to bad. Cosplaying domestic terrorists has consequences 

 
What's reasonable is not committing a crime like that.
I don't think anyone is arguing that you should throw a molotov cocktail into a police car. So on part 1, I think you have complete agreement.

What people are discussing now, though, is the second part - is the punishment reasonable for the offense committed?

I mean, surely you wouldn't want someone who jaywalks or speeds to be sentenced to 45 years in prison, right? We all agree that there should be different sentences for different crimes. So what is your opinion on this sentence for this crime?

 
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I don't think anyone is arguing that you should throw a molotov cocktail into a police car. So on part 1, I think you have complete agreement.

What people are discussing now, though, is the second part - is the punishment reasonable for the offense committed?

I mean, surely you wouldn't want someone who jaywalks or speeds to be sentenced to 45 years in prison, right? We all agree that there should be different sentences for different crimes. So what is your opinion on this sentence for this crime?
Speeding and jaywalking aren't even close to vandalizing a law enforcement vehicle.  Unbelievable 

 
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Not justifying it.  What they did was wrong, and it deserved some sort of punishment.  But 45 years is way, way too much by at least an order of magnitude.  

I'm citing this as an example precisely because I'm not really sympathetic to their cause and I strongly disagree with their methods.  It's easy to bookmark examples of people I like being treated badly.  It's more instructive to look for examples of people I don't like being treated badly.
It is a very interesting case...one thing I don't like about what they did is it is is pre-meditated...that carries a lot of weight for me because it's not getting caught up in the moment and doing something foolish...you have to plan your crime which means you have plenty of time to think this thru...you know what you are doing has consequences...also, this was a violent crime and while no one got hurt anytime something like a molotov cocktail is involved that is a very distinct possibility (i.e. I don't really cut them much slack for no one getting hurt)...so while I have zero sympathy for these losers I do think 45 years is pretty harsh...this won't go over well with many here but I'd like to see some hard labor used instead of years...what hard labor means is open for debate but how about people like this go into poor neighborhoods, clean them up, paint houses, do landscaping and stuff like that...put in an honest day's work in exchange for lesser time...it would help society and hopefully helps rehabilitate people like this.

 
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What are talking about?
You wrote - "Speeding and jaywalking aren't even close to vandalizing a law enforcement vehicle.  Unbelievable "

I agreed with you. Speeding and jaywalking usually get tickets (fines) of $25 to $250 or something. I don't think anyone is arguing that is the penalty that these folks should get.

I mean - you understand that there are different penalties for different severities of crimes, right?

I feel like I am going nuts here. Am I missing something?

 
It is a very interesting case...one thing I don't like about what they did is it is is pre-meditated...that carries a lot of weight for me because it's not getting caught up in the moment and doing something foolish...you have to plan your crime which means you have plenty of time to think this thru...you know what you are doing has consequences...also, this was a violent crime and while no one got hurt anytime something like a molotov cocktail is involved that is a very distinct possibility (i.e. I don't really cut them much slack for no one getting hurt)...so while I have zero sympathy for these losers I do think 45 years is pretty harsh...this won't go over well with many here but I'd like to see some hard labor used instead of years...what hard labor means is open for debate but how about people like this go into poor neighborhoods, clean them up, paint houses, do landscaping and stuff like that...put in an honest day's work in exchange for lesser time...it would help society and hopefully helps rehabilitate people like this.
Agree on all this, and that's why Ivan said he threw this case out there.  Like he said - if we can strongly disagree that what they did was wrong and should be punished, if the 45 years is giving us pause - that is all part of the equation of what the OP is getting at as to why maybe we have such a high population of inmates.  

 

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