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Jorgensen (1 Viewer)

ren hoek

ren hoek

Footballguy
https://jo20.com

I'm really fed up with this trump/biden jerk.  She's bright, sophisticated, intelligent; she's got a lot of good ideas and always supports them with credible arguments.  I saw her speak yesterday, she's very impressive.  The Libertarian party is generally pretty cringe to be honest but she's fantastic.  

I'm with her!  

 
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Is she going to garner more than the 2.2% vote high she has had in her attempts at running for office?

What about her should I support?  What is her actual record of public service, management, governance?  What experience does she have that make her qualified to be POTUS?

 
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sho nuff said:
Is she going to garner more than the 2.2% vote high she has had in her attempts at running for office?

What about her should I support?  What is her actual record of public service, management, governance?  What experience does she have that make her qualified to be POTUS?
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Yeah

Her beliefs and worldview if you agree with them, for example not blowing trillions of dollars on Biden’s wars

Long career as professor, owning her own business, political activism going back decades.  Phd in corporate industrial psychology 

I like her experience, I consider it a good thing she’s not a career politician 

 
ren hoek said:
Yeah

Her beliefs and worldview if you agree with them, for example not blowing trillions of dollars on Biden’s wars

Long career as professor, owning her own business, political activism going back decades.  Phd in corporate industrial psychology 

I like her experience, I consider it a good thing she’s not a career politician 
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Beliefs and worldview are great...but when push comes to shove...with no record...is it anymore than reading what Biden's or Trump's beliefs are?

Professor?  Ok, cool...I don't believe for a second that would prepare anyone for being POTUS.  Business owner is an ok start...activism...meh.  The PHD seems pretty meaningless to the job.

Her experience seems quite minimal IMO...career politician...sure that is not a bad thing to be out of...but having some governing experience would be a huge plus.

And at this point...she has been a part of two campaigns and never gotten more than 2.2% of the vote...seems to me she is not even close to any viable option for much of anything.  Barely an option as a state rep...but not a national campaign of leader of this country.  

Sorry...but not enough there to even come close to consider her.

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
I’m told I should vote Biden because he’s not Trump

Maybe Ill vote for her because she is not Biden or Trump
 

🤷🏻‍♂️
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Um...ok.  If that is what you want...go for it.  Just asking legitimate questions of why I should support someone with such a limited resume.

 
-jb- said:
What about Man in the Yellow Hat?  Curious George for Veep!

I actually think the general libertarian platform is a good one.  They just gotta keep the loons of the ballot as it affects their credibility.
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The hat guy is also good.

Putting a Libertarian in at President level would be such a disaster. How about these people try governing at something a little smaller for their first gig?

 
sho nuff said:
Beliefs and worldview are great...but when push comes to shove...with no record...is it anymore than reading what Biden's or Trump's beliefs are?

Professor?  Ok, cool...I don't believe for a second that would prepare anyone for being POTUS.  Business owner is an ok start...activism...meh.  The PHD seems pretty meaningless to the job.

Her experience seems quite minimal IMO...career politician...sure that is not a bad thing to be out of...but having some governing experience would be a huge plus.

And at this point...she has been a part of two campaigns and never gotten more than 2.2% of the vote...seems to me she is not even close to any viable option for much of anything.  Barely an option as a state rep...but not a national campaign of leader of this country.  

Sorry...but not enough there to even come close to consider her.
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Yes- because Trump just spews nonsense about antifa/ms13 terrorist cells and Biden straightup lies.  I think Jorgensen has a real sense of conviction.  

Having a principled belief set is plenty enough to guide someone through the decision-making process.  Biden had the opportunity to make those decisions, and chose wrong.  His support for the Iraq War and Patriot Act alone are disqualifying.  

Biden and Trump both have a history of exaggerating their own accomplishments.  I’m sure you recall Joe Biden’s failed 1988 presidential run when he was caught plagiarizing a European politician, and lying about his graduation credentials.  

There is really no comparison between these people.  She is the best option at this point.  

 
ren hoek said:
Yes- because Trump just spews nonsense about antifa/ms13 terrorist cells and Biden straightup lies.  I think Jorgensen has a real sense of conviction.  

Having a principled belief set is plenty enough to guide someone through the decision-making process.  Biden had the opportunity to make those decisions, and chose wrong.  His support for the Iraq War and Patriot Act alone are disqualifying.  

Biden and Trump both have a history of exaggerating their own accomplishments.  I’m sure you recall Joe Biden’s failed 1988 presidential run when he was caught plagiarizing a European politician, and lying about his graduation credentials.  

There is really no comparison between these people.  She is the best option at this point.  
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But why do you think that?  We have no history of her to know if she really has that sense of any conviction from much of anything.  That is my issue with "unknowns".  I think there is a difference between career politician and zero political/governance experience.  A large large difference.

She isn't an actual option though...she is not a viable candidate whatsoever.

 
Why doesn’t some 3rd party make a concerted effort at bottom up party building? Start with getting some representation in Congress, build up from there. Be something more tangible than the “protest vote”.

 Easier said than done of course but this has always been my thought about how to get a 3rd party to long term viability. 

 
ren hoek said:
Yes- because Trump just spews nonsense about antifa/ms13 terrorist cells and Biden straightup lies.  I think Jorgensen has a real sense of conviction.  

Having a principled belief set is plenty enough to guide someone through the decision-making process.  Biden had the opportunity to make those decisions, and chose wrong.  His support for the Iraq War and Patriot Act alone are disqualifying.  

Biden and Trump both have a history of exaggerating their own accomplishments.  I’m sure you recall Joe Biden’s failed 1988 presidential run when he was caught plagiarizing a European politician, and lying about his graduation credentials.  

There is really no comparison between these people.  She is the best option at this point.  
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No it isn’t. This is so naive. It would certainly help but it doesn't mean they will be effective.

These candidates need to shoot lower, why are they starting with the Presidency?

I’m sure Jo is an amazing person but you know nothing about her let’s be honest.

 
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Jo Jorgensen @Jorgensen4POTUS

I will not be able to attend the campaign rally tomorrow morning. I will be getting a rabies vaccine as a precaution after having been bitten by a bat near the start of this campaign tour! I have every intention of participating in the FLAME march and I will deliver remarks at the #LetHerSpeak rally in Hattiesburg later in the afternoon.

The #LetHerSpeak convoy to Hattiesburg is on time, and is scheduled to depart at 2 PM.

7:09 PM · Aug 7, 2020

https://twitter.com/Jorgensen4POTUS/status/1291889336422719488?s=20

 
The General said:
No it isn’t. This is so naive. It would certainly help but it doesn't mean they will be effective.

These candidates need to shoot lower, why are they starting with the Presidency?

I’m sure Jo is an amazing person but you know nothing about her let’s be honest.
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I already told you man.  The Iraq War is disqualifying for Joe Biden.  Thanks for playing 

 
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Cowboysfan8 said:
I’m told I should vote Biden because he’s not Trump

Maybe Ill vote for her because she is not Biden or Trump
 

🤷🏻‍♂️
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Been saying it for months (maybe a year plus), 3rd party no matter who the empty suit is. We need to get the 3rd party to the 15% threshold to enter the national debates.  

 
There's no chance I'm going to vote for her because this election is too important. We have to get Trump out of the WH. 

But I wanted to review her policies. So I reviewed her site. I was going to post what she wrote, but what would take up too much room. So - 

  • Healthcare - She says all the problems are caused by Republicans and Dems. We need more competition. But doesn't explain how that is going to happen. Any thoughts on what her actual healthcare proposal is? Because she doesn't list one on her site.
  • Neutrailty and Peace  - She wants to bring home all of our soldiers and make the US a giant Switzerland. Nature abhors a vacuum. So who do we think will replace us? Will that be better? What about protecting our trade? How will that happen? Does this mean she would abolish NATO?
  • Spending  - Veto all debt spending. Do you know what spending she plans to cut? Or how she will raise tax revenue?
  • Social Security - 6.2% solution - I admit I don't know enough about it to ask proper questions.
  • Trade and Immigration - Not specific with details. But I like what she says in general.
  • Criminal Justice Reform - She wrote, on her site, "This is literally highway robbery." That's not good. Makes me dislike her. But overall her positions on criminal justice reform seem good. Though its weird to focus so much on civil asset forfeiture. 
  • Poverty - No specifics so its hard to rate her proposals. All she says is she will repeal gov't programs. I have some reservations about that. But until she posts actual proposals, hard to review her.
  • Taxes - "As President, I will work tirelessly to slash federal spending, make government much, much smaller, and let you keep what you earn." Again - hard to review that. No specifics whatsoever.
  • Education - She wants to eliminate the DoE. I mean - I get that it has problems. And I'm not totally against it - but I would need to see more specifics.


Again - would never vote for her in 2020 because we have to get Trump out. But even if I was interested in perhaps voting for her, no chance I could make that determination based off of her "Issues" section on her website. Far too few specifics.

 
The General said:
The hat guy is also good.

Putting a Libertarian in at President level would be such a disaster. How about these people try governing at something a little smaller for their first gig?
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Gary Johnson would have been a better president than either of the two major party candidates last time around.  :shrug:

 
It’s worth noting that Jorgensen preferred John Monds, who I’m not real familiar with, for VP over Cohen.  But I guess the LP goes through a nominating process for that rather than letting the Presidential nominee pick who they want.  

The reason Cohen is a “podcaster in his mom’s basement” or whatever is that he’s a retired millionaire who sold his web development company by the age of 35.  He was diagnosed with MS some time ago.  

Considering that the ‘free ponies’ ‘zombie power’ thing is obviously a joke, I’d be interested to hear specific policy positions where people disagree.  Is wearing a boot on your head worse than launching a war that killed a million people?  

They’re not wrong on most of the issues and still lightyears better than Trump or Biden.  

 
ren hoek said:
It’s worth noting that Jorgensen preferred John Monds, who I’m not real familiar with, for VP over Cohen.  But I guess the LP goes through a nominating process for that rather than letting the Presidential nominee pick who they want.  
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I mentioned Monds in the 3rd party thread a while back after reading an article about him and how this VP process works.  Wish I had posted that article, don't remember who wrote it.  A Jo-Monds ticket would have gotten my vote.

 
ren hoek said:
It’s worth noting that Jorgensen preferred John Monds, who I’m not real familiar with, for VP over Cohen.  But I guess the LP goes through a nominating process for that rather than letting the Presidential nominee pick who they want.  

The reason Cohen is a “podcaster in his mom’s basement” or whatever is that he’s a retired millionaire who sold his web development company by the age of 35.  He was diagnosed with MS some time ago.  

Considering that the ‘free ponies’ ‘zombie power’ thing is obviously a joke, I’d be interested to hear specific policy positions where people disagree.  Is wearing a boot on your head worse than launching a war that killed a million people?  

They’re not wrong on most of the issues and still lightyears better than Trump or Biden.  
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There is so little to their plans and since they have no track record it’s hard to know where to start.

Again, how about a trial run in a state. Say Wyoming or something.  

Eliminating Federal Income tax, her response on COVID, “deregulation” is the answer to poverty, decreasing costs of medical care by “75% by increasing competition” well glad she got that figured out. These either sound ridiculous or like saying free ponies.

 
ShamrockPride said:
See, now I'm gonna need somebody to fact check this. I don't think you're allowed to vote that way. I thought I only had those two choices. I mean it's what @The General told me just the other day. I don't wanna go breakin' any rules now...
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No, you see, a vote for Jo Jorgensen is a vote for Donald Trump.  A vote for Joe Biden is a vote against Trump.  Only voting for Joe Biden counts as not supporting Trump.  Understand now?  

 
ren hoek said:
No, you see, a vote for Jo Jorgensen is a vote for Donald Trump.  A vote for Joe Biden is a vote against Trump.  Only voting for Joe Biden counts as not supporting Trump.  Understand now?  
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Yes this is how works in reality. Jo Jorgensen, boot hat guy, Green Party person are fringe candidates. They are not going to get beyond fringe candidates because they hold fringe beliefs in how government should work.

Take 2000 election. A few hundred people who voted Nader in Florida, who while not perfectly aligned with Gore would have been certainly been more closely aligned with him on more issues.

We still get attacked on 9/11 but a Gore administration doesn’t go into Iraq. See how that works?

 
The General said:
There is so little to their plans and since they have no track record it’s hard to know where to start.

Again, how about a trial run in a state. Say Wyoming or something.  

Eliminating Federal Income tax, her response on COVID, “deregulation” is the answer to poverty, decreasing costs of medical care by “75% by increasing competition” well glad she got that figured out. These either sound ridiculous or like saying free ponies.
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The L party has tickets up and down local/state levels.  Not unlike the Green Party.  I don’t understand why people are acting like all it does is front presidential candidates every 4 years.  

Anyway I don’t even like the Libertarian party.  That’s separate from small l libertarians like Michael Badnarik, Scott Horton, Peter Schiff, Bob Murphy etc.  I just think Jorgensen’s good and we need to get someone like her in the debates.  

 
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ren hoek said:
The L party has tickets up and down local/state levels.  Not unlike the Green Party.  I don’t understand why people are acting like all it does is front presidential candidates every 4 years.  

Anyway I don’t even like the Libertarian party.  That’s separate from small l libertarians like Michael Badnarik, Scott Horton, Peter Schiff, Bob Murphy etc.  I just think Jorgensen’s good and we need to get someone like her in the debates.  
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Being on a ticket means nothing. There were like 40 candidates for Washington Governor. I’m saying let’s see a fringe party candidate actually run something with a tad bit lesser stakes than say running the entire country.

Getting in the debates is a separate issue. There are rules to getting on the stage. You meet the criteria you can be up there. There does need to be some cutoffs to this, no?

 
dkp993 said:
Been saying it for months (maybe a year plus), 3rd party no matter who the empty suit is. We need to get the 3rd party to the 15% threshold to enter the national debates.  
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If a third party candidate actually got the necessary 15%, the CPD would just up the requirement to 20%.  I haven't watched a debate since the 80s.  They're a sham.  The Ds and Rs pretend to hate each other until a third party gets serious traction, then they're best friends.

 
Enderdog said:
If a third party candidate actually got the necessary 15%, the CPD would just up the requirement to 20%.  I haven't watched a debate since the 80s.  They're a sham.  The Ds and Rs pretend to hate each other until a third party gets serious traction, then they're best friends.
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I don’t believe this to be true at all. The party that will benefit from whoever this 3rd party candidate siphons votes from loves the 3rd party.

 
The General said:
Yes this is how works in reality. Jo Jorgensen, boot hat guy, Green Party person are fringe candidates. They are not going to get beyond fringe candidates because they hold fringe beliefs in how government should work.

Take 2000 election. A few hundred people who voted Nader in Florida, who while not perfectly aligned with Gore would have been certainly been more closely aligned with him on more issues.

We still get attacked on 9/11 but a Gore administration doesn’t go into Iraq. See how that works?
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It only works that way when people settle for #### candidates instead of supporting actual good ones.  They consent to participating in a corporate-run sham because they delude themselves into thinking it’s the only choice there is.  The entire thing hinges on fear of avoiding the worst rather than hoping for the best.  This is where it got us.  I’m over it

 
ren hoek said:
It’s worth noting that Jorgensen preferred John Monds, who I’m not real familiar with, for VP over Cohen.  But I guess the LP goes through a nominating process for that rather than letting the Presidential nominee pick who they want.  

The reason Cohen is a “podcaster in his mom’s basement” or whatever is that he’s a retired millionaire who sold his web development company by the age of 35.  He was diagnosed with MS some time ago.  

Considering that the ‘free ponies’ ‘zombie power’ thing is obviously a joke, I’d be interested to hear specific policy positions where people disagree.  Is wearing a boot on your head worse than launching a war that killed a million people?  

They’re not wrong on most of the issues and still lightyears better than Trump or Biden.  
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I went to her website and looked at her policy positions in a post just above. 

 
ren hoek said:
It only works that way when people settle for #### candidates instead of supporting actual good ones.  They consent to participating in a corporate-run sham because they delude themselves into thinking it’s the only choice there is.  The entire thing hinges on fear of avoiding the worst rather than hoping for the best.  This is where it got us.  I’m over it
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What makes her a good candidate?

 
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ren hoek said:
It only works that way when people settle for #### candidates instead of supporting actual good ones.  They consent to participating in a corporate-run sham because they delude themselves into thinking it’s the only choice there is.  The entire thing hinges on fear of avoiding the worst rather than hoping for the best.  This is where it got us.  I’m over it
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I don’t disagree that these aren’t great choices.

I disagree that Biden is that terrible, he’s just meh. Fair enough that we disagree.

Biden would be more competent at running a functional government. People can also disagree here.

Trump is a disaster. Trainwreck of epic proportions. Is this really debatable? I guess, evidence is on my side here.

What is undeniable that in this election is that Jo J or any minor presidential candidate is that they have zero chance in winning this and that in states where this is going to be close you are assisting either Trump or Biden getting elected by voting 3rd party.

 
The General said:
Being on a ticket means nothing. There were like 40 candidates for Washington Governor. I’m saying let’s see a fringe party candidate actually run something with a tad bit lesser stakes than say running the entire country.

Getting in the debates is a separate issue. There are rules to getting on the stage. You meet the criteria you can be up there. There does need to be some cutoffs to this, no?
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It’s just a third party.  Their ideas aren’t fringe at all.  I think a warfare surveillance state is totally extreme, but it’s 100% normal and good in Biden/Trump world.  

If watered down “centrism” is so good then it shouldn’t have any problem debating a third party.  The whole thing is rigged of course- but there’s no logical reason for anyone to have a problem with open debates.  

whoknew said:
I went to her website and looked at her policy positions in a post just above. 
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I saw that.  I was looking for a cspan interview to share with you but didn’t find it.  I think she’ll be on Joe Rogan’s show at some point too.  

 
Enderdog said:
If a third party candidate actually got the necessary 15%, the CPD would just up the requirement to 20%.  I haven't watched a debate since the 80s.  They're a sham.  The Ds and Rs pretend to hate each other until a third party gets serious traction, then they're best friends.
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While I agree the debates are a “sham” or show lately I think it’s a cop-out to make the excuses stated in the first half of your post.  Attitudes like this assure those with the power now (the 2 parties) keep the power.  The system is broken and must be changed, we have the power to do that.  We aren’t powerless, in fact it’s quite the opposite.  

To quote RATM “we gotta take the power back”  

 
ren hoek said:
It’s just a third party.  Their ideas aren’t fringe at all.  I think a warfare surveillance state is totally extreme, but it’s 100% normal and good in Biden/Trump world.  

If watered down “centrism” is so good then it shouldn’t have any problem debating a third party.  The whole thing is rigged of course- but there’s no logical reason for anyone to have a problem with open debates.  
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Of course Libertarian’s hold many fringe policies. Come on. 

The rules for being on the stage are laid out. Do you really want 6 people up there? Did you watch the Dem debates. It’s was a #### show. 

Where do you draw the line for who gets on stage. 

 
The General said:
I don’t disagree that these aren’t great choices.

I disagree that Biden is that terrible, he’s just meh. Fair enough that we disagree.

Biden would be more competent at running a functional government. People can also disagree here.

Trump is a disaster. Trainwreck of epic proportions. Is this really debatable? I guess, evidence is on my side here.

What is undeniable that in this election is that Jo J or any minor presidential candidate is that they have zero chance in winning this and that in states where this is going to be close you are assisting either Trump or Biden getting elected by voting 3rd party.
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You know, I really don’t care anymore.  I can’t stand Biden or Trump.  Trump less so because there isn’t a bunch of smug centrists acting like Trump’s what’s good for us.  It’s not gonna happen.  

 
The General said:
Of course Libertarian’s hold many fringe policies. Come on. 

The rules for being on the stage are laid out. Do you really want 6 people up there? Did you watch the Dem debates. It’s was a #### show. 

Where do you draw the line for who gets on stage. 
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Yes- I would like more than two parties that are run by corporations to have representation at the debates.  Simple enough.  

The format for presidential debates is a joke.  It lends itself to sound bites and cheap talking points.  It should be long-form discussions that go for hours and allow the candidates to push back against each other, without moderators cutting off very 30 seconds.  

Anyway I think a round-robin type format would be good.  I don’t like the current model for tv debates.  

 
ren hoek said:
You know, I really don’t care anymore.  I can’t stand Biden or Trump.  Trump less so because there isn’t a bunch of smug centrists acting like Trump’s what’s good for us.  It’s not gonna happen.  
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What other people tell me about a candidate outside of info I didn’t have means nothing to me. That would have zero bearing on my vote. I’m looking at the best realistic option that is presented to me.

Again Gore 2020. Just a few hundred different votes in Florida there isn’t an Iraq invasion (who knows what else Gore administration does but invading Iraq is very unlikely).

Anyways, I appreciate the back and forth, Ren.

 
I, for one, would like to extend a hearty "Thank You" to the Libertarian Party, for offering up a much weaker opponent than they offered in 2016. It's nice to know in advance that I won't be experiencing the pang of apprehension that I experienced in the voting booth in 2016.

 
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